In God We Trust?
According to a new survey Religious affiliation is on the decline.
So many Americans claim no religion at all (15%, up from 8% in 1990), that this category now outranks every other major U.S. religious group except Catholics and Baptists. In a nation that has long been mostly Christian, “the challenge to Christianity … does not come from other religions but from a rejection of all forms of organized religion,” the report concludes.
The problem I’ve always had with organized religion (besides the hypocrisy) is their sport’s team mentality. It’s an us vs them scenario, with tolerance coming in dead last. So, being that today’s DL theme seems to focus on the future survivial of established organizations (newspapers) should we be asking the same question when it comes to organized religion?
Can organized religion survive? And why are so many people no longer identifying with a specific religion? What has happened inside/outside houses of worship that has an increasing number of Americans saying, thanks, but no thanks to religious affiliations?
Thoughts?
Tags: Religion
Organized religion will do better than the News Journal.
The fastest growing religion is no religion/no affiliation. I think churches have brought this onto themselves with their pushing abortion and homosexuality as the only important sins. It makes the churches look out of touch with modern concerns and alienates younger people.
I think churches will survive. They’re adaptable and they fill a need for a lot of people. The wounds the church is feeling are mostly self-inflicted.
It’s human nature to piece information together into narratives. That’s really the only way our primate brains can understand anything. It’s quite inefficient leveraging billions of neurons connected by synapses just to figure stuff out everyday. The problem arises when rather than exploring the potential truths of the narrative it is accepted on faith and tradition and the dogma goes untested.
Regrettably I think we are stuck with religion for now. Like everything in evolution the change will be gradual. Maybe religion become insignificant and/or obsolete in 5,000 years… maybe 10,000. We’ve only been walking around as a species for what 30,000 or something.
We need to stop teaching children that there is a god and that war is noble.
thank god
A1 makes an excellent point. How many devout religious people practice a faith that was not the faith of their parents? 5%? 1%? Less? By accident of birth…
We need to stop teaching children that there is a god and that war is noble.
Can Hube please post this to “RedState.”
The 8% to 15% is a pretty significant jump. To me it shows a major disconnect between the pulpit and the congregation.
Since religion is about faith, what you believe, these numbers are reflecting that a growing number of Americans simply aren’t believing what they’re hearing. (and believing in religion is very different from believing in a god. This survey isn’t about spirituality.)
Richard Dawkins says that religion is persistent primarily because it is an evolutionary advantage for children to believe their parents. So children are the ultimate gullibility machines. They cannot distinguish the truth between a parent or adult telling them “don’t eat poison berries” (a helpful truth) and “mind viruses” such as “Jesus is god” or “killing other people for the government is good” (total lies).
What religion or ultimate beliefs an adult holds to be “absolute truths” depends largely on the culture that they grew up in, which is largely dependent on where they were born. Religious truth is, therefore, geographically relative.
The only way we are going to survive as a species on this planet is to stop teaching our children these lies. The only way.
And I don’t have much hope.
Churches and their leadership have proven to themselves to be all too human and not always capable of living the morals or ethics that they should be teaching the rest of us. If the takeaway message of the New Testament is to love thy neighbor, how do you reconcile that with exhortations to look at gay people (or any other group) as sinners. Or for efforts to exclude woman, or gay people from church leadership. Or for those efforts to treat the church experience as a MLM opportunity. Churches are becoming less welcoming places — in large part because our own sense of what constitutes “welcoming” is expanding, but also becoming less tolerant of their own hypocritical behavior.
cassandra_m asks:
If the takeaway message of the New Testament is to love thy neighbor, how do you reconcile that…
That’s easy. Your premise is wrong. The takeaway message of the New Testament is NOT to “love thy neighbor.”
But that is the message, although it’s been spun into “hate the sin, love the sinner.” Only, that didn’t work out so well. Not nearly as much fun as all that eternal damnation stuff.
A1 is correct. One of the big intellectual problems religious people have is holy book interpretation. In this case it is Christians and the bible. Here we have an oversimplified, cherry-picked theme (golden rule) that really isn’t a main tenet of the N.T.
For further analysis on N.T. criticism I’d recommend The Jesus Dynasty by Tabor, Who Wrote the Bible by Friedman or Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman. All good primers.
FYI – Ehrman’s new book Jesus, Interrupted hit the book stores last week. I went to Borders Friday and the initial shipment was already sold out!
YouTube advert:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qADxEspNE-Q
On Fresh Air w/ Terri Gross:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101389895
Sorry, but this post reminded me of a song:
Dear god,
Hope you got the letter,
And I pray you can make it better down here.
I dont mean a big reduction in the price of beer,
But all the people that you made in your image,
See them starving on their feet,
cause they dont get enough to eat
From god,
I cant believe in you.
Dear god,
Sorry to disturb you,
But I feel that I should be heard loud and clear.
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears,
And all the people that you made in your image,
See them fighting in the street,
cause they cant make opinions meet,
About god,
I cant believe in you.
Did you make disease, and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind after we made you?
And the devil too!
Dear god,
Dont know if you noticed,
But your name is on a lot of quotes in this book.
Us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look,
And all the people that you made in your image,
Still believing that junk is true.
Well I know it aint and so do you,
Dear god,
I cant believe in,
I dont believe in,
I wont believe in heaven and hell.
No saints, no sinners,
No devil as well.
No pearly gates, no thorny crown.
Youre always letting us humans down.
The wars you bring, the babes you drown.
Those lost at sea and never found,
And its the same the whole world round.
The hurt I see helps to compound,
That the father, son and holy ghost,
Is just somebodys unholy hoax,
And if youre up there youll perceive,
That my hearts here upon my sleeve.
If theres one thing I dont believe in…
Its you,
Dear god.
Since we’re on lyrics:
Most people think,
Great God will come from the skies,
Take away everything
And make everybody feel high.
But if you know what life is worth,
You will look for yours on earth:
And now you see the light,
You stand up for your rights.
All I can say to that VON CRACKER is Brian Johnson at his best:
Who made who, who made you
Who made who
Ain’t nobody told you
Who made who, who made you
If you made them and they made you
Who pick up the bill and who made who
Ain’t nobody told you
Who made who
Who made you
Who made who
Who made who
Yeah
Nobody told you
You could really apply this to anything, the economy etc.
Stand up for Iron, Lion, Zion….ja man!
Here we have an oversimplified, cherry-picked theme (golden rule) that really isn’t a main tenet of the N.T.
It is less of a “theme” than it is a statement of guidance for an ethical or moral relationship to the world, and its OT counterpart would be the 10 Commandments. If you think about religion as connecting you to something bigger, but also providing (in theory) ethical and moral guidance that should govern your relationship to others (as well as to God), it is in the ethics and morals that contemporary churches seem to be failing people.
LOL, Mission!
The song was better than the movie!
Just broke out the XTC CD, VC! We really need to compare our music collections! I’m sensing a lot of overlaps.
cassandra_m:
You need to read the 10 commandments, starting with the first. And then read all the other ones that have equal footing in “god’s laws” as the 10 commandments. You will find very little “love thy neighbor” stuff – but you will find handy dandy laws about how to kill your slaves or sell your daughter into slavery.
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
– Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
No love thy neighbor stuff there. And no ethical or moral guidance, either.
100 giggs of everything from Miles Davis to The Arctic Monkeys!
Yes, we need to
sharecompare!I have to say the Book of Job really disturbs me, although others have told me they find it inspiring. God destroys a man’s family on a bet? The almost-sacrifice of Jacob I also find disturbing, not to mention Abraham/Sarah/Hagar.
Which 10 commandments should Cassandra read A1? There are at least 3: the Jewish version, the Catholic version and the Protestant version.
A1 — I did say New Testament. In post 10.
And Dawkins, while very interesting, is not likely an authoritative source. He pretty much gives the Atheist Fundamentalists their own dogma to throw around.
And I am not here to defend anyone’s religion — but FTR, I am intolerant of fundamentalism, Believer or Atheist alike.
Billie Holiday to Sublime and Coltrane to Costello! Need to catch up on the newer stuff!
A1, the main message of Christianity is Jesus shows us a new way. Not that many Christians follow Jesus’ teaching. Do you have any idea how hard that is to do? An eye for an eye is so much easier than turning the other cheek. 😉
“I am intolerant of fundamentalism, Beleiver or Atheists alike.”
that is pretty absolute and unbending… one may say it is a fundamental….. 😉
How did Home Sapiens survive before the 10 Commandments? Did they think murder was OK? The bible is wholly unnecessary for moral and ethical guidance. Moreover, it is tainted by the genocide, misogyny, homophobia, slavery and subjugation anyway.
As far as connecting the something bigger, to whatever extent this is even necessary, it can certainly be done without specious superstition. Read “The First Three Minutes” by Weinberg or “Pale Blue Dot” by Sagan. The universe is full of amazing true things… I see no need to create false theories.
Calling Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, et al dogmatic and fundamentalist is so weak. Demanding that people use skepticism and logic rather than accepting a narrative on faith is not dogmatic in the slightest. It’s a nice little tool to try to use in an argument, but it’s false.
I’m not criticizing anyone’s belief system. People are free to believe what they want to believe so long as they 1.) stop trying to convert me, and 2.) stop trying to turn their beliefs into law.
Believe abortion is wrong? Don’t have one.
Believe gay marriage is wrong? Don’t marry a person of the same sex.
Get it?
cassandra_m,
You should read Dawkins book before you call him a “fundamentalist.” And why is not one of the most brilliant biologists and evolution experts alive not an authority?
Unlike true fundamentalists who can’t accept any facts that contradict their belief system, Dawkins would be more than happy to see incontrovertible proof of god.
Right now there is NO proof and therefore he thinks that the probability of god existing is infinitesimally small.
Can organized religion survive? That is the silliest question you have asked. It is not in any danger from a few percentage of people who finally admit that they are not affiliated with a particular religion. Most of them never associated anyway and just claimed to be Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, or Muslim as a cultural identification. Actual participation is up.
I have read Dawkins (and had a chance to talk to him at the Free Library!) and read Hitchens and read Sam Harris. And why are you so certain that it is Dawkins that I was referring to as a fundamentalist?
And there isn’t a fundamentalist on the planet who won’t tell you that he or she is interested in Proof. What is at question is what said fundamentalist will accept as proof. (As in definition as to what consitutes facts.)
But I am also not especially interested in why you think that people don’t need to be connected to “superstition”. I know all of that already. I am interested in Pandora’s question about why people are disconnecting from religion.
pandora,
Sorry, but Jesus showed no new way. I really recommend that you study the Jesus seminars and the history of the gospels before you ascribe such moral nobility to this stuff.
For example, “love thy neighbor” in its time was meant only for your Jewish neighbors.
And the whole “turn your other cheek” is simply a message to oppressed people not to fight your oppressors and enslavers. What is moral about that? Of course, since the gospel Jesus never spoke a single word against slavery, a fundamental evil of his day, it is not surprising that the gospels have him mouthing the wishes of the Romans and slave owners.
cassandra_m
I have read Dawkins (and had a chance to talk to him at the Free Library!)
Cool!
I don’t think fundamentalists are interested in proof that contradicts their beliefs. Why do they persist in believing in creationism when evolution and science prove it is false?
believing in creationism when evolution and science prove
Because 1) their definition of facts is not being met or 2) they won’t really engage in anything that might contradict their current belief set. But they will all challenge you to prove your point.
Dawkins signed my copy of The Devil’s Chaplain when I attend a lecture in NYC! By the way, I love the way that DA just pops in, calls the question the silliest ever and says ‘participation’ is up… CLASSIC.
Their definition of facts?? That’s a perfect way to describe them I think. I want to start a group that has an alternative defition of liquid and the color green.
Then I think that the Discovery Institute is the place for you!
I am already preparing the necessary documents to apply for the Templeton Prize!
“Can organized religion survive?”
Catholicism survived the Roman Empire, the Plague, Communism and hundreds of other fun surprises. I’m pretty sure we’ll outlast MTV. There are over 1 billion of us, we can take a few hits.
“And why are so many people no longer identifying with a specific religion?”
Because liberal protestant sects started teaching them all religions were the same.
“What has happened inside/outside houses of worship that has an increasing number of Americans saying, thanks, but no thanks to religious affiliations?”
Liberal protestant sects said its OK not to go to Church and people stopped going
“Thoughts?”
We’re seeing an evolution of Religion in America – most major (dare I say, conservative) faiths like Catholicism, Baptism, Mormonism, Islam, Orthodox Judaism are all doing find. Mushy, weak (dare I say, liberal) religions are dying out. Their adherents are temporarily homeless but will find new Churches to call their own. We see these shifts every few generations – a few sects get picked off, a few get stronger. It would be silly to interpret this as any sort of a wave of Godlessness.
Bold prediction – out Grandchildren will live in a world without Quakers, Unitarians, Reformed Jews and in a country where the Episcopalian faith has split up. I’m not trying to make any judgment on the validity or invalidity of these faiths, just saying that demographically/politically they are headed for dissolution.
I am already preparing the necessary documents to apply for the Templeton Prize!
Oh God, DG!
I just noticed that if you spell your initials backward and put an “O” in between you get “GOD.”
Creepy. But it might help with your prize.
A1 – That’s about what you need to do to win. Make stuff up.
T.S. – There is most assuredly a wave of godlessness… and thank goodness. Atheism is far more accepted and mainstream then 20 or even 10 years ago. I don’t think anyone can deny this. This fact is the impetus behind the stats in the original post.
And if the pope continues to excommunicate Brazilian doctors who save 9 year old girl’s lives and ex-excommunicate (re-communicate?) holocaust denying bigots perhaps you shouldn’t be so sanguine regarding Catholicism survival.
The Brazilian story is outrageous. Oh, they excommunicated the mother as well.
Outrageous doesn’t even begin to describe it. Nice organization… Oh, and the best part… the “church” did NOT excommunicate the rapist step dad. Although his crime was bad they were not as bad as the doctor’s non-crime. (Although abortion is illegal in Brazil, they can be performed legally for health reasons… like the girl was raped, is 9 years old and like 35 kilos only).
9 years old and carrying her stepfathers twins!
It’s stories like these that drive people away.
I remember reading this one passage in the Bible where Jesus went beserk in the temple, I think this was in Galilee, and the President called on the Avengers to take him down. I think the Avengers they sent were: Iron Man, Thor, Wolverine, Hulk, Captain America and the Sentry. Now, first of all, understand that the Sentry is basically Marvel’s version of Superman. It was like this awesome 10-page battle, and, I think, at one point Jesus BROKE THE HULK’S LEG.
….so, for me, the question really is: *SHOULD* organized religion survive?
All these posts have merit but are used by wing nuts to win elections. When one is seeking worthwhile political goals a sure way to lose is to arm the enemy with weapons they can use so effectively against you. I agree with Jefferson, a persons belief in God niether picks my pocket or breaks my leg. So mums the word to serve to keep political discourse going with people of faith.
STI,
I think the attitude of giving religious beliefs a pass has caused a lot of problems for the country. Since “no religion” is now the 3rd most popular religion perhaps the non-religious should get the same treatment?
That story out of Brazil is absolutely outrageous. I wonder how many people will leave the church on the basis of that story alone?
The other side of the coin, not giving religion a free pass gave us 8 years of Dubya. How did that work out? It`s impossible to fight idiocy when they hold the power.