Happy Memorial Day 2009
As the resident veteran at DL I can say that I have the authority and the right to speak my mind and add an educated veteran opinion that none of our other DL writers and to be honest many other Delaware blogger can (carpetbagger’s notwithstanding of course). Sure we have the holy rollers that feel they are part of God’s Army and the other chubby shirt stretching Republicans that get all chubby in the pants when they watch “Saving Private Ryan” and “Band of Brothers”. We even use to have some schlep named Politakid that went to Charter school and was championing the Iraq War but when it came time to man up….he had to to go college because well, the military was essentially a choice for the unfortunate. I digress though.
There is always going to be that contingent of loud mouths out there that watch a few movies and have been in a few fisticuffs and feel that they too are now soldiers and sailors and can speak for the lot of those that have served. The dipshits over at the former internet radio site. The Angry Spanish Teaching Comic Book Reading Battle Star Galactica (spelled wrong? who gives a shit) petulant name calling nimrods or the Jesus loving Anti Abortion Nuclear War loving strident Catholics. I love you guys. Really, I understand what it must be like for you to rent a movie and turn the volume up really loud to feel like you are part of the action.
Man when CNN is on and they are talking about the payload of a weapon and how fast the Stealth bomber can fly I know you guys think it is just awesome and are proud to be a United States citizen. Wheeeeee how cool! hooorahhhh, I saw a movie with Navy Seals and then went to the gym and squeezed out 11 reps instead of my normal 9. AWESOME! Wooohoooo.
Gooooooooooo…..Let’s Roll!
Maverick, Ice, What’s your position? I’m in quadrant four! I’m hit! I’M HIT!!!!!
Man Down! Man DDDDDDDDDOOOOWWWWNNNNNNNNNNN! MEDIC! MEDIC! Morphine.
Full Metal Jacket was awesome! Did you see Platoon? Dude? How about “Apocalypse Now”?
The horror…
T
h
e
ho
rrorrr
I’ll be back
Asta la vista Baby
Cover Me
Greeeenaaadddeeeee
He’s locked on!
Grrrrr
Golllllllllleeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyy Sgt Carter. Shaaaaazaaaaaammmmmm
PILLLLLLE!!!!!
I love the beer muscles of the squirelly little fucks on FOX and CNN that get to armchair QB the war and the military. Blown off limb!? Fuck that! You are a war hero son. Hoooraaaaaahhhhh! You know they have never served and have no idea what it was like. That’s ok to them. They are with us in spirit and for the grace of God if it weren’t for Wolf Blitzer and Sean Hannity, I wouldn’t have made it through Great Lakes. Boy, I bet those guys can really imagine what is was like to serve. So therefore, they are our comrades. Mi foxhole, su foxhole. They speak for us. They get a television and radio show and get all hard in the pants when callers and guests say, “you are a great American”. As if being a DJ is some sort of worthy cause. Grrrrr. I talk the talk and…welll….errrrr ergo that means I talk the talk… I defend the soldiers and their right to kill. So, by default I too am one of them and by default have the right to criticize those that criticize other veterans.
Colin Powell…shit bag.
Dick Cheney, deferment x3…Patriot
Awesome.
Military records for the state guard go missing….warrior
Served in Vietnam got injured came back and spoke directly to congress and senate….PUSSY
hooooraaaaahhhhhh. I cut brush with a chainsaw! Grrrrrrrr. Serve me. Die for me….I am one of you. Semper Fi! Where’s my pile of rubble and a megaphone.
(is this thing on?) Achtung! Achtung!
“GO SHOP!”
ohhhh and
Hoorah. (Inset Department store announcement garbled marble mouth voice) “Attention Walmart Shoppers, Aisle five has yellow ribbon magnets 3 for $5! Buy a “These colors don’t run” bumper sticker combined with any camouflage beer huggie and you get a live strong bracelet free!”
Congrats you are now a patriot, Capitalist style!
So to you that have fallen over the history of our nation I salute you…actually, fuck that. I don’t salute anyone anymore. I did my time. I tip my hat and slug my beer to you and pour some for my homies for good luck too. I applaud those that served My Country for the past 7/8 years. I don’t know how you guys did it.
Those of you that have lost our lives fighting the “War on Terror” I only hope that the rest of our country stands up and defends your honor some day. You didn’t die in vain I promise. We will vindicate your deaths. We will honor you by holding those rotten, heartless, cowardly, evil, sons of bitches that lead you to your deaths accountable for what they did and didn’t do. The need to be held accountable while they are still walking on our country’s soil. They played the ultimate game and risked American lives to further their own personal agendas. They must pay the price. If your country wont hold them accountable I pray that another, better, morale, law-abiding, God fearing nation will.
You, you did not die in vain. You died for a cause. Freedom. You may have died because of greed and misguided priorities but in the long run you will be honored properly and will stand as the symbol of all that is good in the citizens of this great nation. Because of a soulless group of draft dodging people were able to trick the “liberal” media and the rest of the citizens of this great country I don’t blame you. I applaud your ability to do what you are told; begrudgingly. I applaud you doing 3, 15 month tours while your newborn son learned how to walk, talk and eat on his own without ever knowing you existed. I feel for you. I can’t even imagine how hard it must be for your loved ones. I can’t even imagine leaving a pregnant wife behind and dying, never to see your own child. No biggee though, Saddam could have built WMDs. It’s all good, we were pretty sure he and AQ were in cahoots. They weren’t? Oh? Shit. Our bad. No biggee, we never really said he had WMDs…and on and on and on. Lie after lie after lie with politicians and media supporting and appeasing them. Question their motives or methods and be pilloried. Accept it and be canonized.
They disgust me, the leaders and politicians that allowed this to happen as well as made it happen. I’m sorry. I’m sorry I let you die in an unjust war. A war even the church I used to belong to said was unjust. I’m sorry that that the 4th branch of government let you down. You represent everything that is good with our country. The spirit of a country that billions around the world hope to be able to have for their own children some day. You are the victims in this and at some point you will see justice. Your mother’s, father’s, wife’s, husband’s, daughter’s and son’s will make it right or see it made right. It may take a while but, I know in my heart that enough people in this country and around the world will vindicate you. They will not allow the aura of our great country to be soiled and sullied. They know we are the only hope. We are not infallible as a men (yes women too UI) as a country. The past decade has shown us how important it is to stand up for what is right and now the citizens of this great country are going to hold those people that trampled on the laws that made this nation great accountable for their transgressions. Like it or not we must do what is right by you and for you.
Soon enough you will be memorialized in the right way. I’m sorry. I’m sorry that our elected officials put you at risk. It is going to take a long time to heal the wounds and to be able to supplant the United States of America atop the the totem pole of morality on this planet. We will we sit atop there again one day. We will be able to look back at this time in our nations history and say that we were wrong and that we have changed. We have learned from our mistakes and will not repeat them. One day we will be able to say that the countless number of those serving that perished didn’t die in vain. They died actually defending our freedom and not our our safety. Freedom is what our military is supposed to protect. There is a difference though the less intelligent and educated are unable to distinguish between the two, Freedom and Safety.
I am sorry you had to perish to defend spineless cowards. Liars. Hypocrites. Draft Dodgers. Bigots. Homophobes. Fake Christians. Fake Americans. I’m sorry I wasn’t able to do more to keep you from perishing all because I too allowed myself to be mislead. I too was a mouthless pawn. I can only hope that America becomes stronger and learns from our mistakes. That we stop allowing ourselves to be used and manipulated. That we dig beyond what we are told and search for answers and not assume we are told the truth no matter who is in office. I only hope that the mistakes we made torturing fellow humans doesn’t result in more pointless deaths. Though I’m confident it will for quite a while. Much like we were told to hate the USSR for what they did to their own citizens, other nations citizens will no doubt have that same hatred for what we now represent. We are better than that or at we least we used to be. We need to be better than that again to protect and honor your name. The only way I can think to memorialize the most recent names added to a long list of true patriots is to do what should be done during events and days like today.
In honor of you I’m posting photo’s of several fellow humans being tortured in the hopes that one or two more Americans will take note and realize that until we hold those accountable that let this happen, we can’t move forward as a nation. That we can’t keep our nation safe and prevent more military men and women from becoming names on a list of pointlessness. We are a civilized nation. A nation of laws. A nation that doesn’t stoop the level of the savages that hate us and want to kill us. We are better. If we are a Christian nation, then why aren’t we acting like it? If we are the greatest nation ever then when will we take the high road and do what we tell other countries is the right just way.
It is with great pride that I and DL honor our Nations Fallen. Our past mistakes will not be repeated. Hopefully, we will hold those accountable that put our country in harms way and will make future members of our military those to be memorialized. Bless you and know that you are in our hearts. You paid the ultimate price for our freedom. 
I have chills after reading that.
This is some pro-life passion you just expressed with great intensity, donviti. Good one!!!
I was pissed when I went to Walmart and they were all out of the magnets for my car
Very well said. I hope we are done with cheap, phony patriotism. For a while anyway. As you say point out the all show, zero substance war cheerleaders will always be with us.
I agree, Jason. Especially when the practitioners of that cheap phony patriotism show how shallow that patriotism is when someone they disagree with is elected President. Under one Administration, they are wrapped in the flag; under another, they are ready to secede or violently overthrow the government.
“These colors don’t run,” except that they do if you pass an economic stimulus package.
I know this post will displease the easily displeased. Especially with the posting of the very graphic torture pictures. Well, if you are fine with torture, then you cannot possibly complain about our posting of them. If you are fine with torture, you should be proud of pictures of it. If your moral sensibilities are offended by a picture of an Iraqi penis, then perhaps your moral sensibilities should be offended by torture.
Thanks for serving, in more ways than one. I like a stretchy waistband myself, though.
The Squishy Maharishi wrote:
“I was pissed when I went to Walmart and they were all out of the magnets for my car.”
This one’s for Squish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmsOIjzQ1V8
I couldn’t have said it better, Viti.
Why we went to war should be an easy, simple and clear cut answer. The reasons should be so overpowering that the questioner should be ridiculed for asking it.
The fact that there is no clear answer to the question of “Why?” is direct evidence that it was wrong to start it in the first place.
Well done, DV.
I am just glad we live in a country that gives you the right to question authority and I salute all those that died to give me that right.
I do so without degrading the humanity of those that made bad decisions.
Peace to all and Thank You Vets!
Brilliant. Well done, DV.
It is terribly sad on a day to honor veterans you have to uncork such a diatribe.
This country may not be perfect but it is way ahead of every other country and veterans are why we are number one.
Try looking at the flag in silence for a minute and drop all of your hate and rage.
Mike Protack
“Well, if you are fine with torture, then you cannot possibly complain about our posting of them.”
au contraire mon ami
Those are pictures of Abu Ghraib, to which everyone objects. If you had posted pictures of the CIA water boarding Khalid Sheik Mohammed and thus, saving Los Angeles, then I would be fine.
“Liars. Hypocrites. Draft Dodgers. Bigots. Homophobes. Fake Christians. Fake Americans.”
We also like to kick puppies, you might want to add that one in too.
This…
This country may not be perfect but it is way ahead of every other country and veterans are why we are number one.
is exactly the empty bullshit that passes for patriotism among wingnuts that DV was calling out.
Thanks for proving his point.
… CIA water boarding Khalid Sheik Mohammed and thus, saving Los Angeles, then I would be fine.
Such crap. How did coercing people into making up shit about Iraq’s connection to 9/11 save LA?
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949
When used correctly, torture usually works.
It is terribly sad on a day to honor veterans you have to uncork such a diatribe.
This is precisely the moment, while the memory is fresh, while the sacrifice is real… this is precisely the time to discuss such things.
Putting on heirs, Mike, just as you expect us to do on such a day is the exact thing this post was about. Instead, you are shocked by the horror and forget to see the message.
Tom S and Mike Protack defending torture as “It works” and “we are still better than others” is too precious by half. It works doesn’t mean anything. We don’t waterboard mobsters, white collar criminals or drug dealers. But for some reason, if you speak Arabic, it is cool.
And if you believe in American exceptionalism, you must believe that we are to behave better. You are both have disgusted me. Defendng torture is unamerican.
The world will be a vastly better place when Memorial Day celebrates those who resist war, not those who perpetrate or participate in it.
Tom S,
You really are not that stupid are you? The LA story? Really?
The “planned attack on Los Angeles” refers to an announcement made on February 9th 2006 in which it was claimed that an Al-Qaeda plan to fly a plane into the LA Library Tower was thwarted in 2002. The release of the news that the plot had been prevented by means of tapping terrorist suspect’s phone, and not torture as the CIA now claims, was politically timed to coincide with the start of legal hearings on the Bush administration’s domestic eavesdropping program.
Also… cns news ? Really? Why not say that torture works because Sean Hannity says so? Why appeal to an expert like Hannity. Just say “torture works because a magic unicorn told me so.”
“It works doesn’t mean anything.”
There are a lot of families in LA who would beg to differ. Does their opinion count for nothing?
“We don’t waterboard mobsters, white collar criminals or drug dealers.”
When they have vital information regarding a mass terrorist attack on a major American city we will start. Next.
“And if you believe in American exceptionalism, you must believe that we are to behave better.”
I do and I do not believe that water boarding 3 terrorist masterminds to save thousands of innocent lives precludes us from it.
“Defendng torture is unamerican.”
Our intelligence agencies and the work that they do have been keeping your family safe at night for the last seven and a half years. If you can’t deal with that it isn’t my problem.
“You really are not that stupid are you? The LA story? Really?”
Says the man quoting Alex Jones…..
You are disgusting.
Perhaps, but I am right.
Disgusting and stupid. Tom believes in the 1% doctrine. This is why Tom wears a helmet when he drives his car. It is also why he uses an umbrella at baseball games to deflect foul balls. He also packs heat whenever he leaves the house.
This is the sad pathetic life of those that would let fear rule their lives and would allow any atrocity to be committed in their name, so long as it makes them feel better.
Classic chickenhawk.
“Tom believes in the 1% doctrine.”
I’m not actually sure what that is….
“This is the sad pathetic life of those that would let fear rule their lives and would allow any atrocity to be committed in their name, so long as it makes them feel better.”
I think being afraid of a global conspiracy of people bent on my death is pretty rational.
You have allowed your dogma to blind you to the reality of the situation that faces us. Waterboarding 3 terrorists in order to save thousands of American lives is by no means an atrocity.
Yes, Tom it is. The 1% doctrine is Cheney’s justification for everything. And you have fallen for it. “If there is a 1% chance of something happening, then we act on it”
It is an atrocity. How many people do we have to torture for it to be an atrocity in your book? At what point does it become morally reprehensible? At what point have we compromised ourselves?
Finally, at what point would you consider the consequence for torture “worth it”? So, one might say, I don’t care if I can be tried for war-crimes, we have to torture. If that is so, we must still try them and allow the jury to weigh the decision. If the decision is as reasonable as you seem to believe, I’m sure there is noting to fear.
“Yes, Tom it is. The 1% doctrine is Cheney’s justification for everything. And you have fallen for it. “If there is a 1% chance of something happening, then we act on it””
What would you up the chances of KSM having valuable information at? Cause I’m thinking it is somewhere around 100%
We weren’t on a fishing trip when we roughed this guy up, we KNEW he had information. Why do you think we’ve only waterboarded 3 guys during the last 7 1/2 years?
“It is an atrocity. How many people do we have to torture for it to be an atrocity in your book? At what point does it become morally reprehensible? At what point have we compromised ourselves?”
This isn’t a numbers game. It only becomes immoral if we start interrogating innocent people or doing it unnecessarily. We torture and shoot spies all the time. This is no different.
“Finally, at what point would you consider the consequence for torture “worth it”? So, one might say, I don’t care if I can be tried for war-crimes, we have to torture. If that is so, we must still try them and allow the jury to weigh the decision. If the decision is as reasonable as you seem to believe, I’m sure there is noting to fear.”
Fun story, this isn’t a war crime. I’m not really sure what the question is.
If my wife is in labor, I run a few red lights with the knowledge that if I get pulled over, I’d probably be vindicated if it ever got to trial. So let’s try them and see what the jury thinks.
Oh, and yes it is a war crime. What to you think the Viet Cong thought the likelihood of getting info from John McCain was? I guess they put it at 100% too.
Of course, you are correct, he did know things, but he told us those things BEFORE we tortured him. It is a war crime.
Oh, and you’re right, this isn’t a numbers game. One is too many.
“Oh, and you’re right, this isn’t a numbers game. One is too many.”
Would you have bombed Germany?
A bombing campaign isn’t a war crime. Next please.
Tom’s argument (that he is a moral homunculus) is unassailable.
“A bombing campaign isn’t a war crime. Next please.”
Even with those hundreds of thousands of dead women and children? Are you sure?
Yes, Tom. Did you get your medication today? You seem to be losing your ability to comprehend.
Are you proud to be defending evil?
“Are you proud to be defending evil?”
I’m pretty sure it isn’t evil.
How can you defend the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children in order to win a war but recoil at slapping 3 terrorists around to win a war? In what world does that make sense?
Tom S in #17: “When used correctly, torture usually works.”
There is nothing in your reference that indicates that standard interrogation techniques would not have worked. The FBI and the Army Manual both recommend them and are against waterboarding.
Moreover, the use of torture is a black and white issue, wrong or right. We thought it was wrong when the Japanese did it! The Brits thought torture was wrong, even at the height of the WWII activity. What is our excuse? Answer: Unfounded rationalizations like what you just used, Tom S.
Perry,
To the original point of the post. I like that DV included that gory depiction of Christ.
Under Bush we were the Romans. Some people (like Tom S) get off on that empire stuff. I don’t and always felt that were were not being true to the founders vision of the country as long as we played at being Rome.
Tom S,
Innocent people were tortured to death by Americans carrying out their official duties. You can call it “slapping 3 terrorists around” all you want, but that is an utter lie.
You are the moral equivalent of the German citizens who looked the other way as their soldiers filled the boxcars to take Jewish people to “work camps” in 194o’s.
“There is nothing in your reference that indicates that standard interrogation techniques would not have worked.”
The Battle of Algiers.
“The FBI and the Army Manual both recommend them and are against waterboarding.”
They do, but they do that because they are bound by civil law and by the Geneva convention, respectively. They do not do this because of effectiveness.
“Moreover, the use of torture is a black and white issue, wrong or right. ”
Sleep deprivation, solitary confinement, psychological warfare – this is all kinds of gray.
“The Brits thought torture was wrong, even at the height of the WWII activity.”
No matter what they said in public, they were doing it behind closed doors because they knew what was at stake and the knew it worked.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/nov/12/secondworldwar.world
“What is our excuse?”
I remember having to watch while some son’s father jumped out of a 110 story building so he wouldn’t be consumed by the burning jet fuel. I would rather not have to do that again.
Algiers proves torture works?
FAIL
Tom, Do you masturbate when thinking about how great torture is? Just curious.
What are we defending if we’re not defending the Constitution and American values? Why should young men and women go to war to defend a country that won’t even take care of them when they get back?
Standard interrogation techniques do work, that’s why they are used. It’s ridiculous to talk about some hypothetical “ticking time bomb” situation – if waterboarding worked so well, why would KSM be waterboarded 183 times in month? I think the ticking time bomb would have gone off by then. Plus, we still don’t have Zawahiri and Bin Laden and we didn’t prevent the Madrid or London attacks.
As far as the Library Tower plot goes, that was thwarted before Zubayda was even captured. You’re using false information that has been debunked many times:
His arguments are not intended to show that torture is valid. They are intended to show that he is a fucked up, unAmerican to the core, moral basket case.
To that end he has been, and will continue to be, very successful.
Torture?
I assume you are on your way to protest in front of the White House?
Obama still allows rendition- you know outsourcing of our torture. In SERE school as trainees some of these techniques were done as awareness that other countries have tortured in the past and will in the future.
By the way, which country is the only country to do a nuclear test in the 21st century? North Korea who has laughed at Obama just as the Iranians have.
Your President has the command presence of a kibdergarten teacher.
Mike Protack
Your President has the command presence of a kibdergarten teacher.
Mike Protack
No Jason. Don’t say anything. Just enjoy the moment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afd_sDNYbpY
Correction: Obama has no Command Presence-None.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK0T4pVHP28
“Algiers proves torture works?”
I don’t see how it doesn’t.
“Tom, Do you masturbate when thinking “about how great torture is? Just curious.”
No hun, I save your untenable arguments for that.
“Standard interrogation techniques do work, that’s why they are used.”
Awesome. Where is your evidence? Do you have a comparative study tucked away somewhere? Standard interrogation techniques are used by the military and domestic agencies because they are the only ones they are allowed to use by law.
“It’s ridiculous to talk about some hypothetical “ticking time bomb” situation”
Why? There was one and we diffused it.
“As far as the Library Tower plot goes, that was thwarted before Zubayda was even captured.”
You have the ruminations of David Brock and I have the word of the Vice President of the United States. I’m feeling pretty confident on this one.
“Plus, we still don’t have Zawahiri and Bin Laden and we didn’t prevent the Madrid or London attacks”
Last time I check we’re not in charge of British or Spanish internal security. Maybe if we were…
“They are intended to show that he is a fucked up, unAmerican to the core, moral basket case.”
I can see you’ve given up on defending your position. Are you going to call my mother naughty names as well?
… and I have the word of the Vice President of the United States. I’m feeling pretty confident on this one.
Hilarious.
Tom S what was the extent of your service? Not much I think
Viti from one Bubble Head to another Job Well Done!!!!
andy,
we need to have a beer together. if not soon t hen on 8/15 at twin lakes you and I shall shoot the breeze!!!!
I insist!
The library tower was debunked by every news organization. Tom S. has who – Hannity? LOL.
Madrid and London were done by Al Qaeda. We supposedly had an al Qaeda top guy in our custody. Are you saying Spain and Great Britain are SOL? We knew about the plot and didn’t tell them? I thought Bush talked about the “Global War on Terror?”
So, we’ve heard from the peacetime heroes who fought valiantly for their benefits.
LOLOLOL
Fate is a fickle thing, hoser.
They didn’t have the cold war up in Canada I guess.
Interesting. Some republicans on this blog now arguing for torture.
Then there’s the real patriotic republican war hawks who did not serve or avoided the draft. It was a long blog so it deserves a long response. Besides, it’s just a partial list.
GW Bush – decided that a six-year Nat’l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he’s “been to war.”
Jeb Bush, former Florida Governor – did not serve.
VP Cheney – several deferments the last by marriage (in his own words, “had other priorities than military service”)
Former Att’y Gen. John Ashcroft – did not serve received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State
Karl Rove – avoided the draft, did not serve
Former Speaker Newt Gingrich – avoided the draft, did not serve
Phil Gramm – avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments
Senator Richard Shelby, did not serve
Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani – did not serve.
Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney – did not serve
Former Senator Fred Thompson – did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey – avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay – avoided the draft, did not serve
Former House Majority Whip Roy Blunt – did not serve
Former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist – did not serve.
Rick Santorum, R-PA, formerly third ranking Republican in the Senate – did not serve.
George Allen, former Republican Senator from Virginia – a supporter of Nixon and the Vietnam war, did not serve.
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-KY – did not serve
Senate Assistant Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-MI – avoided the draft, did not serve.
House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-OH – did not serve.
House Minority Whip Roy Blunt, R-MO – did not serve.
Senator Jon Kyl, R-AZ – did not serve
Senator John Cornyn, R-TX – did not serve.
Senator Tim Hutchison, R-AR – did not serve
Rep. Mark Kirk, R-IL – did not serve
Representative Saxby Chambliss, Georgia – did not serve
Former Representative JC Watts – did not serve
Jack Kemp, did not serve (was unfit because of a knee injury, though he heroically continued as a National Football League quarterback for another eight years)
Former Vice President Dan Quayle, avoided Vietnam service, got a slot in the journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard when the unit was at 150% capacity (at least he showed up for his duty, unlike GW)
Paul Wolfowitz, did not serve
Michael Bloomberg, did not serve
George Pataki, did not serve
Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) – was a National Guard lawyer who never left South Carolina during the Gulf War.
Senator Joe Lieberman – did not serve. (oops)
George Will, did not serve
Bill O’Reilly, did not serve
Pat Buchanan, did not serve
Rush Limbaugh, did not serve
Michael Savage – did not serve
John Wayne, did not serve (funny)
Pat Robertson – claimed during 1986 campaign to be a “combat veteran.” In reality, was a “Liquor Officer.”
Sean Hannity, did not serve.
Kenneth Starr, did not serve
Antonin Scalia, did not serve
Clarence Thomas, did not serve
Ralph Reed, did not serve
Ted Nugent, did not serve
Country Singer Toby Keith, did not serve.
Interesting list, Ironic — says alot about the chickenhawks who have no problem sending others off to war!
Tom S in #4o, you made an astonishing statement:
““The FBI and the Army Manual both recommend them and are against waterboarding.”
They do, but they do that because they are bound by civil law and by the Geneva convention, respectively. They do not do this because of effectiveness. “
In other words, you are admitting that Cheney/Bush/Rice broke the law and violated the Geneva Convention, and you are proud of it because it works and it went for a good cause.
Unfortunately there are too many of your ilk around here whose valueless rational is to take the Machiavellian approach that the ends justify the means. This is the fatal flaw in your party, Tom S, and you have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. You better hope that noone jerks on your line, because your mouth will be ripped open and you will plead for mercy, just as victims of torture usually do. Now you see the problem with torture, don’t you?
Wayne, by virtue of becoming a celluloid war hero in several patriotic war films, as well as an outspoken supporter of conservative political causes and the Vietnam War, became the focus of particular disdain from both himself and certain portions of the public, particularly in later years. While some hold Wayne in contempt for the paradox between his early actions and his later attitudes, his widow suggests that Wayne’s rampant patriotism in later decades sprang not from hypocrisy but from guilt. Pilar Wayne wrote, “He would become a ‘superpatriot’ for the rest of his life trying to atone for staying home.”[33]
I hear all the above apologies.
Where are the apologies for “spitting” on the returning soldiers from Vietnam?
Tom S.: We’ve already established what you are. Now we’re just haggling over the price.
And, just so you realize, what with your link and all, nobody with a brain believes a word the CIA says about any of this. They are lying to save their agency.
Paul (#59)
1973 called. He wants his wingnut talking point back.
“Interesting list, Ironic — says alot about the chickenhawks who have no problem sending others off to war!”
Remind me, Barrack Obama – Veteran? Gentlemen, there is nothing magical about military service.
“In other words, you are admitting that Cheney/Bush/Rice broke the law and violated the Geneva Convention, and you are proud of it because it works and it went for a good cause.”
No sir, because to the best of my knowledge it was the CIA doing the waterboarding.
“because your mouth will be ripped open and you will plead for mercy, just as victims of torture usually do. Now you see the problem with torture, don’t you?”
………….no.
“Tom S.: We’ve already established what you are. Now we’re just haggling over the price.”
See, when you stop trying to refute what I’m saying and just call me naughty names I know I’ve won.
“nobody with a brain believes a word the CIA says about any of this. They are lying to save their agency.”
Right. You are an authority on the subject?
Ladies and Gentlemen this is all what is essentially comes down to; if you knew that you could have prevented 9/11 but you had to slap a man would you have slapped him? Yes or no?
Now slapping = torture?
Stop trying to conflate the two. Conservatives claim to be so moral, yet at the slightest threat they’re ready to throw out the Constitution forever. What do conservatives really believe in? Nothing except clinging to power from what I’m seeing here.
“slapping = torture?”
Under the Geneva convention and US civil law? Absolutely.
Would you have slapped a man to prevent 9/11?
We only needed George Bush to do his job in order to prevent 9/11.
Let me turn your question around… If you did torture someone to prevent 9/11 would you be willing to stand trial to prove that you were right to do it? Would you expect that no one would care?
“If you did torture someone to prevent 9/11 would you be willing to stand trial to prove that you were right to do it?”
Only if the court thought I did something illegal. Clearly, our government does not think this was the case. Why bring people to trial for working within the confines of the law?
I answered your question, answer mine.
Once again MIKE P> missed the point. After all it’s the folks he admires most Rush, Cheney And Carl Rove who attacked a war hero General Powel on this Memorial Day Weekend.
“See, when you stop trying to refute what I’m saying and just call me naughty names I know I’ve won. ”
Only true if you think “torturer” is a naughty name. And “I’ve won” contains no meaning in this context. Won what? An argument? That changes reality exactly how?
We know you’re a torturer, or rather would be willing to torture. Now we’re just haggling over when you think it’s OK to do it.
See? No naughty names. Just logic. You’re a torturer. You’re the one who has to live with that, and you seem totally OK with it.
All the rest is you justifying what I consider your pathology.
“nobody with a brain believes a word the CIA says about any of this. They are lying to save their agency.”
Right. You are an authority on the subject?”
At least as much as you are on torture.
“Gentlemen, there is nothing magical about military service. ”
You’re right, but at least is shows that some of us are willing to serve our country, some not so much it seems. BTW, I believe a couple of ladies have been talking in this thread.
Tom S., for a fellow veteran such as Mike Protack, I will just say that we will agree to disagree on this subject. Although I vehemently disagree with Protack on this issue, I will not question his serving of his country.You, however, with your non-serving, torturing self, can just Bite ME!
I completely understand why Tom S. believes torture works – because it would work on him.
I believe 9/11 could have been prevented using the laws that were in place in 2001. We had all the information, but Bush, Cheney and all the administration geniuses didn’t give a rip about it. Now they overcompensate with their talk of “keeping us safe.”
I opted to simply skim or flat-out skip the partisan rhetoric most of these comments have become (not intended to flame any single person, but realize it starts to over shadow the post for your own posturing).
DV – Rise above, reflect, correct, and compassionate care for those who were the compromised surrogates for the Risk board players (you know I understand you). Like I posted two Veterans’ Day’s ago, I agree with you and your right to post this. I never served in any capacity whatsoever, like you did, like my father did, like my sister did, and many friends and so on. I feel compelled to apologize to you and them for that, but I think it’s out of guilt for not being able to ever fully understand exactly how you feel. I understand what you are saying and I am impartial enough to allow the image of what you present to sink in. To ignore graphic reality and be a lemming-cheerleader is one of the most disengenious acts ever and is exactly what I believe allows for poor conditions and treatment of war and conflict veterans at any point in their need. That really is something to ponder, if the general population ignores the graphic reality of what happens so far away from their warm, buzzing TV in their comfy living room, what motivation do they really have to lift even so much as a pinky to organize and demand better care and treatment for all of our veterans?
DV – to you, my father, my sister, my friends, to anyone that had to report in our military service, whether in war, conflict, or “peace,” I sincerely thank you for putting yourself in real or potential harm’s way for this country and for me. I did not do the same, but I was in a fortunate period of our history where I didn’t have to face such a decision, as were many who went the same path as me. You all will always have something that I don’t and will always look up to you because of that. Thank you.
It is a proven fact that torture works. Almost everyone breaks eventually. That is not the debate. Enhanced Interrogation is not torture.
Let’s get to the subject of dishonoring people’s service record. You ignore that Pat Robertson served in a combat zone and was awarded 3 bronze stars. Are you disrespecting the service of everyone that worked in division? That is disgusting. Naturally, you disparage people who were turned down for service like Kemp, Buchanan, Limbaugh, and others. You disrespect every national guardsman. You can not spend one moment to understand the holiday. It ranks among your most pathetic works.
You ignore a list of liberals who did not serve is it because it is too long starting with our President, Vice President, and Speaker of the House? They all made valuable decisions which worked for them. The President worked in his community, the Vice President served as a public defender, and the speaker was a wife and mother. While those are valid choices, it is a special choice to serve in the armed service, and it is right to recognize those whose service cost them their lives.
Your post fails in that regard.
You said the military is not here to defend our safety but our freedom. Can you defend freedom without defending the safety of Americans? It is by insuring that we are safe live in liberty that our freedom is protected. That was your stupidest statement of the day.
DV – Thank you, in case it already got lost up there.
“Can you defend freedom without defending the safety of Americans?”
Oh, for crying out loud, you moron, you can’t seriously defend the 2nd Amendment while simultaneously blathering about protecting our safety. Has your head been in your ass so long you simply think it’s dark all the time?
After reading this thread, I never want to have another Republican lecture me on morals ever again. Their arguments are that the ends justify the means (even that is false – torture doesn’t work). They are apologists for law-breaking by high level officials. Torture gets a yawn from them, but an affair with an intern is worth impeachment.
That’s a great point, Geezer. That safety arguments really gets me. We value freedom, enough that we are willing to sacrifice some safety for it. That’s why we have an elaborate system of courts and laws to judge when the line is being crossed.
Tom’s assesment that torture works is partly based on the premise that the person being tortured is a) guilty and b) knows something. Both are not the case in what the US did.
He is already assuming that the person was guilty. Which they aren’t and haven’t even been tried in a court of law.
To read Tom and David, you have to wonder what they think Washington, Jefferson, Adams and the rest were fighting for back in 1776.
smitty,
np buddy.
David,
It is NOT a proven fact that torture works. Again, you are wrong, but it doesnt stop you from you repeating the same thing over and over.
I find it disgusting that you a pious Christian have so little regard for fellow humans. Much like Tom S. You are a fraud and a disgrace to true devout Christians around the world.
Torture does “work,” if what you mean is it makes people talk, and even give up information. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s barbaric. For people who talk about principles so much, it’s ironic to see Tom and David willing to take the low road because “we’re at war.” Question: How often in the past 70 years have we not been “at war”?
Tom S and David are still furious that they were born too late for the inquisition and the crusades.
Some things can’t be helped.
But don’t fret, David and Tom, you can still own a piece of it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2977502/Headcrusher-and-Iron-Maiden-torture-instruments-go-under-the-hammer.html
In your name, Tom and David, it’s all done in YOUR name.
Have fun with that.
whether nancy Pelosi seved or didn’t serve is stupid given her present age at the time she would have been at the age to serve she would not have been eligible because of her gender
facts,they don’t get in the way of people like that
Andy,
The only difference in serving was in combat,
as a front line troop.
But through out our US history there have been women out front. In harms way.
#88 shows a complete disregard for history
and accuracy.
Youthful indiscretion?
Jason330 #61,
Were there talking points in 1973?
My request for the apology stands.
Then perhaps you should find the folks guilty of the offense to get your apology from.
what Cass said.