4,497 Reasons Why There Are No Do-Overs in War
Hillary Clinton’s colossal fuck-up of one of her most important political decisions of her career.
Part One: 2002
In October 2002, the United States was still reeling from attacks on September 11th. Osama bin Laden continued to evade capture and our war in Afghanistan was not going well; in fact, we were shitting the bed. Earlier that year, the Bush Administration began making its claims about Iraq, Saddam Hussein, and Weapons of Mass Destruction. The Homeland Security Color Code Warning System was proving an effective diversion, but this was a mid-term election year and more distractions were needed – a war in Iraq would prove to be the thing.
Many in the US and throughout the world knew these WMD claims to be false. But Bush and Cheney were resolute on getting rid of the man who Bush’s father could not dispose of. Even, even when top military people and other analysts were against such a horrific war.
From The Washington Post in July 2002:
Despite President Bush’s repeated bellicose statements about Iraq, many senior U.S. military officers contend that President Saddam Hussein poses no immediate threat and that the United States should continue its policy of containment rather than invade Iraq to force a change of leadership in Baghdad.
From The New York Times in August 2002:
Joseph P. Hoar, a retired Marine Corps general who was commander of American forces in the Persian Gulf after the 1991 war, was particularly skeptical of an invasion, calling it “risky” and perhaps unnecessary
…
Morton H. Halperin, a senior fellow with the Council on Foreign Relations, echoed concerns in Europe and the Middle East that the United States should use its influence to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict before attacking Iraq. “Especially if there is no progress on the Palestinian issue, it is likely that an American military conquest of Iraq will lead many more people in the Arab and Muslim world to choose the path of terror,” he said.
As the vote came to the floor, the US Senate was given some classified documents regarding Iraq:
Senators Bob Graham and Patrick Leahy would later say that reading the classified version helped convince them to vote ‘no.’ And during a lunch two days before Clinton’s speech, according to Gerth and Van Natta Jr., Graham “forcefully” urged his Democratic Senate colleagues to read it.
Few did. Using logs of who entered the secure room where the classified NIE was kept, The Washington Post reported that only six senators read it. When The Hill newspaper later polled senators, 22 said they had.
Clinton has never claimed to be among them. When asked directly on Meet the Press in 2008, she sidestepped the question, declaring, “I was fully briefed by the people who wrote that.”
Would reading the classified NIE have changed Clinton’s vote? Maybe not. Even after reading the classified version, Rockefeller and Dianne Feinstein still voted to authorize war. And some intelligence analysts familiar with the classified NIE claim it was a biased, shoddy document that, like its unclassified cousin, bent over backward to prove that Iraq was pursuing WMD. Perhaps most importantly of all, Clinton’s own national-security confidantes—including Iraq expert Kenneth Pollack—believed the WMD claims. It’s hard to imagine she would have overruled them, even if the classified NIE had given her pause.
Still, Clinton’s failure to read the document means her book’s claim that she “made the best decision I could with the information I had” is probably untrue.
What makes the episode so strange is that by the time she entered the Senate, Clinton was already known for her intellectual diligence. In their biography, Gerth and Van Natta Jr. note that despite regularly getting home at 10 p.m. with a binder full of information, Clinton would still master it by breakfast the next morning. In their book on Clinton’s time in the State Department, HRC, Jonathan Allen and Amie Parnes, make a similar point.
How could someone renowned for doing her homework have failed to do so on the most important vote of her Senate career?
Part 2: The Non-Apology Apology
Here is Clinton’s “apology” from her book, Hard Choices:
“Many senators came to wish they had voted against the resolution. I was one of them,” she writes, according to CBS News, which obtained an advance copy Thursday and posted excerpts on its website.
“As the war dragged on, with every letter I sent to a family in New York who had lost a son or daughter, a father or mother, my mistake (became) more painful,” Clinton adds.
“I thought I had acted in good faith and made the best decision I could with the information I had. And I wasn’t alone in getting it wrong. But I still got it wrong. Plain and simple.”
Admitting something was a mistake is not an apology. As William Safire wrote:
The artful dodge of the impersonal apology has roots. President Ulysses S. Grant, fondly remembered by grammarians for his activist self-description, ‘I am a verb,’ appended a note to his final annual report to Congress on December 5, 1876, acknowledging the scandals that had plagued his two terms in office with the words, ‘Mistakes have been made, as all can see and I admit.’
There are lots of resources on the internet on how to apologize. Maybe Hillary should look them up.
Part 3: The Dead
American Deaths: 4,497
Tags: Featured, Hillary Clinton, Iraq War
Iraqi civilian deaths due to Coalition and insurgent military action, sectarian violence: 155,923 – 174,355 as of March 2016. T
And yet, Bernie lost to Hillary.
So as long as she wins, whatever she does is fine by you. Got it.
Voting for that war was a transparently stupid and craven move at the time, and it only looks worse with the passage of time.
How many trillions of worthless debt have been created from Iraq and Afghanistan?
April 3, 2003:
Capt. Benjamin W. Sammis, 29, of Rehobeth, Mass., was killed in action on April 4 when his AH-1W Super Cobra helicopter crashed during combat operations near Ali Aziziyal, Iraq. He was assigned to Marine Light Attack Helicopter Squadron (HMLA) – 267, Marine Aircraft Group 39, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing, Camp Pendleton, Calif.
Pfc. Chad E. Bales, 20, of Coahoma, Texas, was killed on April 3 in a non-hostile vehicle accident during convoy operations east of Ash Shahin, Iraq. He was assigned to 1st Transportation Support Battalion, 1st Force Service Support Group, Camp Pendleton, Calif. The accident is under investigation.
Cpl. Mark A. Evnin, 21, of Burlington, Vt., was killed in action on April 3 during a firefight in Central Iraq. He was assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, Twentynine Palms, Calif.
It isnt like Clinton was the deciding vote in that War.
May 8, 2003:
Pfc. Marlin T. Rockhold, 23, of Hamilton, Ohio, was killed on May 8, 2003. Pfc. Rockhold was directing traffic when he was struck by a sniper’s bullet.
stop using dead soldiers to make your point. this is gross.
May 12, 2003:
two First Marine Expeditionary Force Marines were killed May 12 in Iraq when unexploded ordnance they were handling detonated. Killed were:
Lance Cpl. Jakub Henryk Kowalik, 21, of Schaumburg, Ill. He was assigned to the 1st Maintenance Battalion, 1st Force Service Support Group, based at Camp Pendleton, Calif.
Pfc. Jose Franci Gonzalez Rodriguez, 19, of Norwalk, Calif. He was assigned to the 1st Supply Battalion, 1st Force Service Support Group, based at Camp Pendleton, Calif.
Is it just this war vote that bothers you, or does it included votes/support for all the other wars/interventions the candidates voted for/supported?
Lets just keep on topic – this war.
March 18, 2003:
Two American soldiers have been killed and six wounded in a mortar attack north of Baghdad, the US military says:
Pfc. Brandon C. Smith, 20, of Washington, Ark.
Pfc. Ricky A. Morris Jr., 20, of Lubbock, Texas.
Cpl. Andrew D. Brownfield, 24, of Summit, Ohio, died March 18, due to
wounds received from an enemy mortar attack at Al Asad Air Base, Iraq. He was assigned to Marine Wing Support Squadron 374, Marine Wing Support Group 37, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Twentynine Palms, Calif.
Pfc. Ernest Sutphin, a member of the 25th Infantry Division in Hawaii, was taken off life support at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany, said his aunt, Faye Pennell of the Greensboro, N.C., area.
Spec. Doron Chan, 20, of Highland, New York, died March 18, near Balad, Iraq, when his convoy vehicle was cut off by a civilian vehicle. The military vehicle swerved, crossed into oncoming traffic, and flipped over. Chan was assigned to the Army Reserve’s 411th Engineer Brigade, New Windsor, New York.
That’s convenient.
March 21, 2003:
Pvt. Dustin L. Kreider, 19, of Riverton, Kan., died March 21 near Samarra, Iraq during a unit weapon test-firing incident. Kreider was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 26th Infantry Regiment, 1st Infantry Division, based in Schweinfurt,
Germany.
Pfc. Christopher E. Hudson, 21, of Carmel, Ind., died March 21 in Baghdad, Iraq when his military vehicle was hit with an Improvised Explosive Device. Hudson was assigned to the 2nd Squadron, 12th Armored Cavalry Regiment, Fort Hood, Texas.
@Pandora: not so convenient for the 4,000+ families who had fathers, mothers, sons, and daughters killed in this war.
A navy Seal died the other day…can we add that to the list too? Asterisk the apology too
This is why so many people felling the BERN!!!
I wish you would stop bringing up her past. It’s off putting and reminds her supporters of why she is so unlikable in the eyes of people that don’t blindly support someone that goes against their core values and can’t bring themselves to noseholding only to keep another party from gaining power.
Those people being the true base of a party that holds people actually accountable.
Costs of War. It would be great if those who decide whether we enter into one actually understood the costs. I’m talking more than American casualties.
Like say, what happens when you forcefully remove a stabilizing power source; albeit a brutal, inhumane one we installed ourselves, in a dysfunctional geographic region and create a power vacuum?
I keep thinking back to good ol’ Donald “no longer than 5 months and we’re out” Rumsfeld and looking at the number of Senators and Reps that actually bought that.
When you look at it that way, Bernie’s position on gun violence looks a lot better than Hillary’s.
I thought it was because of Wall street….. no it’s because of tuition….. no it’s because……. This movement has the staying power of Occupy….and the ability to focus
So Nemski… where are all your memorials to soldiers who died in Afghanistan? something Sanders supported. How about his history of supporting the apartheid in Israel? Are you going to name all the Palestinian children who have been slaughtered as a result of that?
Stay on topic, Ben. We aren’t allowed to discuss those things.
I’m just pissed at Nemski’s timing of this post. Yes, Hillary’s vote for the Iraq War was her biggest mistake. She has apologized for it even if you don’t like her apology. She lost an election in 2008 because of it. I hate to put it this way, but it is old news. This post belongs back in 2008. It has no resonance in 2016. If it did, Bernie would be winning the primary race, because, he has brought up the Iraq vote. But guess what? Voters have moved on. Voters have accepted that it was a mistake.
It is time for you to move on you too, Nemski. Your hatred of Hillary borders on pathological now.
Oh right. We’re only talking about a war that the current president has extended much longer than he said he would. Im glad this butcher’s time in office is almost at an end. Maybe St Donald will finally put an end to it.
April 24, 2003:
The Department of Defense announced today the death of four soldiers
supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom. They died on April 24, in Taji, Iraq, when
mortar rounds hit their camp. The four Soldiers were assigned to the Army National
Guard’s 39th Support Battalion, 39th Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division,
Hazen, Ark. Killed were: (One still unnamed)
Capt. Arthur L. Felder, 36, of Louisville, Ark.
Chief Warrant Patrick W. Kordsmeier, 49, of North Little Rock, Ark.
Staff Sgt. Billy J. Orton, 41, of Humnoke, Ark.
Staff Sgt. Stacey C. Brandon, 35, of Hazen, Ark.
Two sailors and one coast guardsman who were supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom. died April 24 in the Northern Persian Gulf as a result of a waterborne attack. They were assigned to the USS Firebolt, forward deployed to Manama, Bahrain
Navy Petty Officer 1st Class Michael J. Pernaselli, 27, of Brighton, N.Y
Navy Petty Officer 2nd Class Christopher E. Watts, 28, of Knoxville, Tenn
Coast Guard Petty Officer 3rd Class Nathan B. Bruckenthal, 24, of Smithtown,
N.Y. Bruckenthal was assigned to Tactical Law Enforcement Team South Detachment 403.
Staff Sgt. Cory W. Brooks, 32, of Philip, S.D., died April 24, in Baghdad, Iraq, of non-combat related injuries. Brooks was assigned to the Army National Guard’s 153rd Engineer Battalion, from Wagner, S.D.
“It is time for you to move on you too, Nemski. Your hatred of Hillary borders on pathological now.”
Your argument is that because the majority wins the election, the minority must shut up.
This is for everyone except Pandora: Liberal + power = totalitarian
Most people read Hillary’s vote for war as just another mainstream Democrat afraid to look wimpy amid a rush to war. Remember, that got your patriotism challenged at the time.
But what if she really is that hawkish? What if it’s her apology rather than her vote that was the more craven act?
If you Hillary supporters think the criticism is ever, at any point, going to stop, you’re going to have a miserable rest of your life.
Giving Bush and Co a full pass, I see. We all know it was Clinton who falsified “proof” of WMD. We all know it was Clinton who took part in a lie-campaign to make Americans demand a war authorization from their congress..
This is as disgusting as tying Sanders to Sandy Hook. I thought Sanders supporters were supposed to be above this garbage.
Delaware Dem wrote: “She lost an election in 2008 because of it. I hate to put it this way, but it is old news. This post belongs back in 2008. It has no resonance in 2016.”
The war dead have no resonance in 2016. Holy shit.
April 26, 2003:
Lance Cpl. Aaron C. Austin, 21, of Sunray, Texas, died April 26 due to hostile fire in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was assigned to 2nd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, at Camp Pendleton, Calif.
Two were killed when a building they were searching exploded in Baghdad Monday, a U.S. military spokesman said.
Ben: If she had voted the other way she wouldn’t be open to the criticism. She cast her vote and has to deal with the results. Having to live with the results is, most assume, why she cast her vote as she did. Most ambitious Democrats that year did the same.
@nemski: So you plan on making this the most-commented-ever DL thread? Because at this rate we’re going to top 4,000 comments before you finish.
This entire post is solely about discrediting Clinton (fine. whatever.) and pumping up Sanders (fine. whatever). Using the war dead to make this political point is awful. Limiting the debate to this one vote is dishonest.
@anonyomous: Hopefully not.
Bring this stuff up after election, when you can really do something about it Nemski
“This entire post is solely about discrediting Clinton (fine. whatever.) and pumping up Sanders (fine. whatever). Using the war dead to make this political point is awful. Limiting the debate to this one vote is dishonest.”
Why? Because you can’t defend it? Because it’s 100% true? So what if it’s about discrediting her? It does discredit her, her discreditably reeks of dead bodies. She’s a war hawk and an unapologetic one.
War is sorta a big thing, waging it is no joke, I’m surprised (maybe not actually) that you don’t want to discuss it.
Want to talk about Wall St?
Or the people backing her?
Maybe the Pharmaceutical industry money?
How about the Oil Money?
Pandora, I didn’t mention Sanders once. Hillary has the nomination, but there are things she must answer for. Her Iraq War vote is one of them. And I am not sorry if you find the mention of the brave women and men who died in Iraq disturbing because of politicians like Hillary Clinton. Actual it disgusts me quite a lot.
April 30, 2003:
Cpl. Scott M. Vincent, 21, of Bokoshe, Okla.
Cpl. Joshua S. Wilfong, 22, of Walker, W.Va.
Both Marines died April 30 due to hostile action in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. Vincent was assigned to 2nd Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force, at Camp Lejeune, N.C. Wilfong was assigned to 2nd Combat Engineer Battalion, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force, at Camp Lejeune, N.C.
Navy Petty Officer 2nd Class Jason B. Dwelley, 31, of Apopka, Fla and Navy Petty Officer 3rd Class Christopher M. Dickerson, 33, of Eastman, Ga, were both members of Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 14, based in Jacksonville, Fla.
Perhaps hard for DD and pandora to comprehend, but pointing out Hillary’s awfulness does not make one a supporter of Sanders’ presidential campaign. Your desire for her to win the general election does not preclude criticism of her.
It does Clinton no credit at all to point out what Sanders did or did not do. It does not make her vote more moral to say “everyone else did it too.”
We are talking about her judgment, which has on many, many occasions in her public life been found wanting.
Are we back to “don’t say anything harsh or she might lose” again? Back to claiming that liberal critiques of a centrist will make non-liberals vote for her opponent?
Democrats have elected the second-most-disliked presidential candidate of all time. They’ll just have to live with all that entails.
This isn’t about Sanders. Yeah. Right. Sure.
Then what is this about? Discrediting the Dem nominee? That’s fine, btw. Just say so. And while you’re at it, recognize that there wasn’t an anti-war candidate running on the Dem side, so I guess you were against both candidates?
No matter how many times I say it, you just won’t believe it.
Do you expect the same level of belief about everything you say?
Everything is binary with you. It’s either to her credit or her discredit. You’re either helping Hillary or helping Bernie.
I’ve already written it once, but it’s been well-established that you can only respond to a single point per comment, so I’ll say it again: She made her decision, she has to live with the criticism that results.
It appears she can, but you, Cass and DD can’t.
As for “no anti-war candidate,” again with the Manichean worldview. Not all wars are the same. She was for that particular war, one that many of us could see was being built up as a crusade. She went right along with it because that’s what she does best. Her husband is a sleazebag? She went right along with it.
She’s a go-along, get-along kind of gal, right?
You don’t get to be the second-most-hated candidate of all time by just pissing off a few people at a time, amiright?
@Pandora: I wrote a few minutes ago, “Pandora, I didn’t mention Sanders once. Hillary has the nomination, but there are things she must answer for. Her Iraq War vote is one of them.”
But let me try again. Hillary has the nomination, but there are things she must answer for. Her Iraq War vote is one of them.
I would also like to point out that when I made assumptions about what a person’s positions meant, I was taken to task for it, yet you do the same thing constantly, as you did in claiming that I must be attacking Hillary because I support Bernie.
Y’all have different rules for yourselves. Maybe that’s why you identify so strongly with Hillary.
So her apology for that vote and saying she was wrong doesn’t count for answering? Please tell me what more you want her to do about this?
And presidential elections are binary. Sorry, they just are.
@nemski: There are none so blind as those who will not see — except maybe for the people who can’t see because they’ve wrapped themselves so tightly in self-righteousness.
That one’s for you, Cassandra. The site’s other mind-reader.
“And presidential elections are binary. Sorry, they just are.”
But people’s thoughts don’t have to be. Sorry, they just don’t.
“So her apology for that vote and saying she was wrong doesn’t count for answering?”
No, it doesn’t. It wasn’t an apology. It was an attempt at ass-covering. She is defending her vote, not apologizing for it. She’s using the “if only we knew then” excuse when it was obvious to anyone who looked at it then.
We don’t believe her because she’s a skilled, practiced, accomplished liar.
She’s the second-most-hated candidate of all time.
@Pandora: It wasn’t an apology.
All politics aside…. Whether or not you like Hillary, I think we can all agree that voting for that war was a transparently stupid and craven move.
You know damn well if she says “I’m sorry I voted for the Iraq war”, it will be met with “well, she doesnt mean it” or
“it’s too late” or
“screw you, apologies don’t bring all these dead soldiers i’m about to use as props back to life.”
“As the war dragged on, with every letter I sent to a family in New York who had lost a son or daughter, a father or mother, my mistake (became) more painful,” Clinton adds.
She allows that she made a mistake. That’s the important thing from my perspective. You can learn from a mistake.
W said the same thing and we all forgive him, right?
Elections are binary, get over it. Such a well thought out and awesome response. Things matter… Until they don’t when it’s on your side..
The navel gazers are out and showing true colors at DL
So, if arguments like these are happening on blog, Facebook pages, in offices, restaurants, bars, and homes across the country; how does this make Hillary a stronger candidate? Better yet, how does this help defeat Trump.
“Are we back to “don’t say anything harsh or she might lose” again?”
YES, but not because non-liberals, or independents, or liberals for that matter, will vote for her opponent; but because they may just not vote at all. This is what Democrats/Progressives/Left of Centers do. We beat the hell out of ourselves until we are so damaged that we hand the Right free opposition research. We create our own defeat by writing the narrative for them.
I am a Hillary supporter, because I am sure I will be branded anyway, so might as well throw out the disclaimer. I am also liberal, progressive, etc. Most importantly, I am anti-conservative, right-wing, teabagger. This is far more important to me than who has the bigger, fuller, liberal balls. It’s a bullshit argument. YES, it is. And yes, I do believe in fixing income inequality and that NAFTA was a bucket of crap. But I also want to ensure that we don’t piss away 8 years of progress because of a pissing contest over which candidate is more virtuous and expounds our ideals best. I can tell you for sure, it isn’t Trump! The GOP is already coalescing around him, just like they swore they wouldn’t. We should do the same her.
@Ben, this is a real apology.
A handful of politicians have publicly repented for their 2002 vote to authorize the Iraq War, but few as forcefully as Rep. Walter Jones (R-NC) did last week.
“I did not do what I should have done to read and find out whether Bush was telling us the truth about Saddam being responsible for 9/11 and having weapons of mass destruction,” Jones said during an interview on The Tyler Cralle Show.
“Because I did not do my job then,” Jones continued, “I helped kill 4,000 Americans, and I will go to my grave regretting that.”
http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/08/12/3690847/walter-jones-iraq-war-regret/
“But Trump” is lazy, but it also happens to be true.
“we hand the Right free opposition research.”
Yes, the people who think she murdered Vince Foster are going to be heavily swayed by the notion that she’s in favor of war in the Middle East. Got any more of what you’re smoking?
“The GOP is already coalescing around him…We should do the same her.”
Yes, if there’s any group of voters we should emulate, it’s the Republicans.
You’re fighting the last war. You might have missed it, but conservative principles have been jettisoned by the Republican primary voters. That war is over.
You keep blaming us for not being convinced without ever considering that your case isn’t compelling.
Republicans are not the enemy. They are doing what they do and they don’t apologize for it. ConservaDems are the real problem here. Until they get off the stage, the Democrats will keep redefining liberalism as something that golly, just takes a long time to convince people of because those gosh-darn conservatives are just intractable.
Just because you’re happy to be played for a sucker doesn’t make it a necessity for the rest of us.
She is the second-most-hated presidential nominee of all time.
“You keep blaming us for not being convinced without ever considering that your case isn’t compelling.”
So much truth in this.
May 5, 2002:
Two died May 5 in Baghdad, Iraq, when their vehicle hit an improvised explosive device. Both soldiers were assigned to 1st Battalion, 21st Field Artillery Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division, Fort Hood, Texas.
Spc. James E. Marshall, 19, of Tulsa, Okla.
Pfc. Bradley G. Kritzer, 18, of Irvona, Penn.
Pfc. Jesse R. Buryj, 21, of Canton, Ohio, died May 5, in Karabala, Iraq, when his
military vehicle was struck by a dump truck whose driver had been shot while trying
to run through a control point. Pfc. Buryj was assigned to the 66th Military Police
Company, Fort Lewis, Wash.
Cpl. Jeffrey G. Green, an infantryman based at Camp Pendleton, was found dead Wednesday in the Euphrates River in the al Anbar province. The cause of his death is under investigation.
In an earlier comment, pandora noted that the election is binary, which it is, which is why I’m “voting for Hillary” (not really, because I only once have ever voted for a major-party candidate in a presidential election, in 2008).
If you don’t like the way we sound, maybe it’s because we’re holding our noses.
” (not really, because I only once have ever voted for a major-party candidate in a presidential election, in 2008)”
Aaahhhh, I see, you are one of “those.” More interested in making a point than a difference. It is the message, not the ability to implement that matters. Now I know I can disregard anything you say from here on out.
Thank you for saving me time. Mighty thought-y of ya’.
Um…explain how casting one of 120 million votes for a D or an R “makes a difference.”
Words have meanings, and yours are the opposite of what you think they are. Mighty thoughtless of ya.
To follow up on that, voting for the Greens is, last time I checked, my right. Not only do I agree with the party’s platform, I think every vote that doesn’t go to Ds or Rs is worth more than one that does.
Why would I vote for Hillary? So she wins by 100,001 votes instead of an even 100,000? How does that “make a difference”?
I disagree with much of her platform. Why would I want her victory to look more like a mandate. I am not “with her.” I am against Trump, and if it seems as if he has any chance to win in Delaware, I will reluctantly vote for her. I don’t see that as a realistic possibility, do you?
So I would contend that my vote, much more than yours, is cast thoughtfully.
But of course you’re disregarding this, on your Democratic principles. Which says a lot more about Democrats than you meant to.
@B “It isnt like Clinton was the deciding vote in that War.”
So… She made a bad call after multiple briefings from the Bush administration that was a deliberate pack of lies. She was fed the same lies the rest of us saw.
Why not aim your scorn at whom it really should belong to???
Now… If you can convince me that she knew that they were lies…
nemski: i agree with you about hillary’s iraq war vote. but this continued listing of the war dead is a cheap trick that tries to replace rational thinking with feeling.
“Why not aim your scorn at whom it really should belong to???”
That’s what I’m sayin. Rumsfeld and Powell knowing lied to everyone. Now, I think it’s fair to say that it showed supremely poor judgment trusting Rumsfeld… but even Biden is guilty of that one.