Trump’s Campaign Manager, Kellyanne Conway, is not attractive
Kellyanne Conway is not conventionally attractive, and judging from her politics her soul is a putrid mess as well. I only mention this because Trump puts so much stock in looks, mentions how attractive or unattractive people are all the time, and it must be killing him to have to work with Conway. Also, she is in the news today because she says that polls are “skewed” by the fact that people are embarrassed to tell pollsters that they are voting for Trump.
I thought she was Ann Colter and she had her Adam’s Apple shaved
Yeah, you are going to get a beating from Pandora and Cassandra.
I would hope we have better things to comment on than this topic. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Just because Trump is an idiot, doesn’t mean this blog should follow in his footsteps.
I agree, Chris.
I don’t find her unattractive. It’s just that so many people in politics these days have had botox injections, plastic surgery or both that it’s surprising to see someone who hasn’t.
I just received a text telling me about this post.
Seriously?
Are you really condemning Trump by behaving exactly like him? This is the sort of crap women deal with every day. It’s what we’ll deal with from Republicans when it comes to Hillary. Guess everyone will be okay with it then – since Delaware Liberal obviously does the same thing.
Steve Forbes was in town today for Colin Bonini….lets talk about that.
Matt Meyer hitting Gordon in the mail…another good topic.
Other things to discuss than a woman’s looks on a major campaign!
@a “I don’t find her unattractive.”
Yea. She’s fine and she’s real. The problem is what comes out of her mouth.
Trump is stupid evil. She’s smart evil.
Disappointing… Next time, please just post the link without the juvenile, fratish evaluation of her looks
I realize jason didn’t mean this to be taken at all seriously, but I will anyway.
I really do think we’re surprised to see a woman on TV who has not been to a cosmetic surgeon.
In DC it’s not just the women who have cosmetic procedures. Bill Frist, the former Senate majority leader (and an MD) was the first person in Congress who I noticed had botox — his face was as smooth as a mask, like Nancy Pelosi’s, and he had more wrinkles on his forehead in photos from his 30s than he did in his 60s. Joe Biden has had his eyes done. I blame hi-def television.
I’m serious about this. These folks are on TV so much that they feel the same pressure as Hollywood stars to maintain a youthful appearance. Sure, some regular folks do the same things, but it’s still unusual outside of Hollywood and DC, where you seem unusual if you don’t. I truly think this is one of the things that adds to how disconnected people on the national political scene are from the rest of us. The 24-hour news cycle and 6-foot-wide hi-def sets have vastly increased how much you see of these people in harsh news-cam lighting. Have you ever seen Chuck Grassley in hi-def? It’s like the helicopter flight over the Grand Canyon. I guarantee you he’s noticed. He won’t even appear in public in his re-election bid.
Ms. Conway, as you probably realize, is not A-list talent, but she’s only semi-crazy. She has actual qualifications for her job, as opposed to someone like Lewandowski. I’m guessing she hasn’t gone plastic because she hasn’t had positions that put her on TV very much until now.
I’m sure this comment will draw the usual thought-police responses, but there are reams of research to attest to the obvious fact that good-looking people generate more positive responses. That’s why we call them “attractive” — they attract others.
And while looks matter to everyone, even those who don’t realize their subconscious is paying attention, they matter particularly to the Trump set. What Jason, in his inartful way, was pointing out is that Trump’s fanboys might judge her as “not hot enough.”
I just wonder if she’s going to have to show her legs and twirl around for Roger Ailes. Honestly, the staff meetings for the Trump campaign must look like those movie scenes where all Batman’s enemies get together in The Penguin’s sewer.
PS: It’s been a slow day for comments. Do you really think Jason doesn’t know what he’s doing?
New Rule: It’s not ok for us to be sexist just because Trump is too. Jason is not sexist, he was just doing some ill-advised click baiting to get us to talk about her very stupid “hidden Trump voter” nonsense. But when we have to deal with that shit depicted above, it would be nice not to tarnish ourselves.
Thanks for the image. I looked it up, and now I know what a “vagenda” is.
People who don’t get my anti-sexism are probably sexist.
While men are getting botox and cosmetic surgery they sure aren’t receiving the same sexist treatment women do. This sort of thing goes far beyond the hi-def era. It’s always existed. It isn’t new, and you rarely ever see a man’s looks discussed like this.
This behavior is a fatal flaw in some liberal men. We desperately need you as allies and talk like this tells us we can’t count on you. In order to combat sexism/misogyny we need liberal men to address their own behavior – and stop doing it. Every time we call out a woman’s looks we give cover (and permission) to true sexists and misogynists. See how that works? Stop deliberately silencing yourselves by making these comments – we need your voice.
“While men are getting botox and cosmetic surgery they sure aren’t receiving the same sexist treatment women do.”
Tell me conservative men don’t still have a hard-on for that Hollywood picture of Reagan in the cowboy hat. What color was Reagan’s hair again?
“I blame hi-def television.”…. Whoa! C’mon, Anonymous… Let’s not get carried away. Some things need to be left out of the fray!
“Tell me conservative men don’t still have a hard-on for that Hollywood picture of Reagan in the cowboy hat. What color was Reagan’s hair again?”
Yeah, that’s not even close to the point.
“you rarely ever see a man’s looks discussed like this.”
Speak for yourself. I had a field day with Jabba the Ailes.
” Every time we call out a woman’s looks we give cover (and permission) to true sexists and misogynists.”
Sure thing. As soon as the cosmetics departments all close down.
Here’s an article that notes how many successful women are “blonde.” It mentions as an aside that many of them have dyed their hair, then blames that on the fact that people — mostly men, but women too, apparently — prefer blonde women and dark-haired men.
The conclusion: Why, it’s the patriarchy, of course.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/blonde-leaders-sexism_us_57bdd4f5e4b00c67eca12176?section=&
Look at the beam in your own eye — or is that mascara?
So much for honest discussion.
As hard as it may be to believe, misogynists don’t need anyone’s permission to say what they do or think what they do. Muzzling liberal men won’t make the slightest bit of difference.
I told you the thought police would show up.
You’re the one who doesn’t want an honest discussion. “Don’t talk like that” isn’t discussion, it’s a command.
Make-up. Women wear make-up. I’m not making them do it. You are the one who is not honest with herself, and you’re projecting it onto us. You are uncomfortable talking about people’s looks — an enormous part of their image in politics — so we shouldn’t do it because it will make you not trust us.
I don’t care if you trust me. I don’t like thought police, no matter whose thoughts they are policing.
And I’m sure you didn’t read the link, because you can never see past your own (powdered) nose.
now we’re talkin’!
I should have noted earlier that neither of the Clintons, whatever else they might or might not have done, do not appear to have gone under either the needle or the knife. I don’t know that it means anything, but there it is.
Comments about mascara and face powder? Thank you for proving my point.
There’s obviously a lot of Trump in some of you.
So many trout rising to the bait…
Speaking of make up, I noticed Alicia Keys has quit wearing make up. She said “I don’t want to cover up anymore. Not my face, not my mind, not my soul, not my thoughts, not my dreams, not my struggles, not my emotional growth. Nothing.”
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2016/08/22/why-alicia-keys-isnt-wearing-makeup-on-the-voice/)
If that is the start of a movement, it could be a disaster for the make up industry.
As to the topic, I do notice that Conway was not what I would consider attractive, but it was such a fleeting thought meaning it was not relevant, at least to me. There are times when attractiveness is a factor for me as I assume it is for most people. Even so, I understood the context for Jason’s point that it raises the question of how Trump can overcome his misogyny to work with her. It probably isn’t one of his better posts, but I chalked it up to a slow news day.
I’m outraged…
[insert Chris Christie fat comment here]
[insert John Boehner tan comment here]
[insert Trump and/or Biden hair comment here]
[insert Ted Cruz lizard face comment here]
[insert Colin Bonini ‘man baby’ comment here]
[insert Speaker Schwartzkopf ‘sweaty hog’ comment here]
et cetera…
I saw Ms Conway on Maddow and there is no doubt that she is very competent and that the Trump campaign has experienced a huge upgrade. Whatever went into Trump overcoming his misogyny to work with her, it has come not a moment too soon.
come to think of it…. I cant recall the last time one of the….. we’ll say “out” female (as female, not gay) commentors/contributors used those “fat,tan,bald” appellations.
I do it. Jason does it, a lot of the confirmed men do it, but I remember this discussion happening one of the last times it was a slow news day, and there was some calling out and there appears to have been some change…. at least from SOME.
Jason knew he was kicking a bee hive… (the metaphorical one, not the hair-do, once considered the epitome of femininity… by men who sold hair spary) … HEY LOOK! Trump said something awful!
No comment
However, I’d pay good money to see Christie in a play pen full of Oreo’s with Trump making fun of him
Well, now that the men have weighed in and declared this no big deal (except Ben), I guess that settles it. Silly me for stating my opinion – which always, for some reason, gets labeled as censorship.
Your opinion always boils down to “Shut up.” Which boils down to “Stop noticing how people look.”
Do you wear mascara or face powder? If so, why?
I would also point out that you never have anything to say about this BEYOND “shut up.” You just think nobody should notice, or at least not talk about, anyone’s looks, and that to do so is somehow “sexist” even though, as has been pointed out, we do it about men, too. You just don’t feel personally diminished when we do it about men, so you don’t notice it.
After decades of reading women on feminism, I’m beginning to think the problem is lack of self-awareness on the part of women. They want men to change how they act, but they fail to look at their own complicity in it.
“Well, now that the men have weighed in and declared this no big deal (except Ben), I guess that settles it. Silly me for stating my opinion”
This is what people (you know who) mean when they say you are passive-aggressive. Instead of throwing up your hands, try thinking about the issue a little more deeply.
Thank you for telling me to think more deeply on women’s issues. Maybe one day I’ll write something on the topic.
And I’ve never told anyone to shut up. Reread my first two comments. I make points and state my opinion. Why that always translates into me telling you guys to shut up escapes me.
Pandora – I do not know you but I appreciate you being here and standing up, especially in the face of questions like, “Do you wear mascara or face powder? If so, why?” (And if you do, and the bait works and you choose to respond, I hope your response is, “Because I fucking want to.”) Just as I as white man, have no right to tell a person of color what is racist and oppressive, the men here and everywhere have no right to tell women which comments about appearance are okay and not misogynistic or to try and justify them because it occasionally happens to men, too. Cheers to you and Ben – keep up the good fight.
In spite of what some of the earlier comments said, I wasn’t just trying to throw a skunk in the window and troll for comments.
“Kellyanne Conway is not conventionally attractive”
I think we can all agree that we have a very rigid and ridiculous beauty standard in this country for women. And if the country’s is rigid and ridiculous, Trump’s appears to be America’s turned up 500%.
“Trump puts so much stock in looks, mentions how attractive or unattractive people are all the time..”
Trump is very unguarded on this topic, so this appointment reveals something about how desperate Trump must be.
I enjoy Pandora’s contributions from the world of feminism. I have learned a lot.
Do you comb your hair or shave/trip your face? why?
“they want men to change how they act, but they fail to look at their own complicity in it.”
Good God. The way men act is coercion. Bullying and berating until “the woman” throws up her hands and says “fine”. Whether it’s sex, where to eat, or how they should feel about straight up misogynist discussions. I’m goin here, since this is a ridiculous discussion anyway… That is like demanding to talk about the Jews complicity in the Holocaust.
Since a lot of you cant handle a woman telling you to shut up, let me Mansplain it to you. You don’t get to tell people what offends them.
Trump only judges women based on their looks. He brags about it. He proves it.
But going HERE is like calling a loud and proud homophobe, “gay”. You’re still using “gay” as an insult, and that is wrong… even if you are only doing, because you know it will hurt the specific yag-off you’re trying to offend.
Why cant we talk about the billion other horrible things about Trump?
This!
“But going HERE is like calling a loud and proud homophobe, “gay”. You’re still using “gay” as an insult, and that is wrong… even if you are only doing, because you know it will hurt the specific yag-off you’re trying to offend.”
Thank you, Ben!
“Every time we call out a woman’s looks we give cover (and permission) to true sexists and misogynists. See how that works? Stop deliberately silencing yourselves by making these comments – we need your voice.”
Oh, I see. We’ve silencing OURSELVES in your formulation.
I don’t want you to think more deeply about women’s issues. I want you to think more deeply about your smug, passive-aggressive self.
On a serious note, I thought it was abundantly clear that Jason framed his point this way not because he’s misogynist swine, but because the character Trump uses this dichotomy (‘hot or not’) as a major part of his absurd shtick. Jason explains this explicitly in the second a sentence of a three sentence post, but people can’t get past the programmed response.
We know Jason (more or less), and this is clearly done to be provocative (with an explicit, aforementioned caveat). Now that Pandora has swallowed the entire leader, rig and lure, I guess we’re done. Are we done?
I hope so.
Jason’s satire was amusing. The attempts to defend it as something actually worth harping on…. not so much.
Is that really that difficult to understand, anonymous? If you go after a woman’s looks then you’ll silence yourself when someone goes after the gender/looks of a woman you like or support.
I fully expect, when the sexism really ramps up with Hillary, for this post to be cited, and I’m not sure how people can take the moral high ground with a woman they like/respect when they’ve taken the low road with other women.
@Ben: I shave because it feels more comfortable. With my looks, there’s no real disguising the ugly truth.
You’re proving my point. Almost everyone cares about how they look, because they’re judged on it. You want to pretend that’s not true, go ahead, but you’re as incapable of self-criticism as the Republicans you love to bash.
You can pretend you don’t care, but psychological research has shown you do, whether you are aware of it or not.
“Can’t we find something else to talk about?” Sure. As soon as you’re done policing how other people think.
“If you go after a woman’s looks then you’ll silence yourself when someone goes after the gender/looks of a woman you like or support.”
So what? According to you it doesn’t matter. Or is it just it shouldn’t matter? If the latter, too bad. I live in this world, and it does matter here.
“I’m not sure how people can take the moral high ground with a woman they like/respect when they’ve taken the low road with other women.”
I see. Politics for you is about occupying the moral high ground. Seems that way for a lot of “liberals.”
That’s not politics you’re talking about. I have read this blog for years, and it’s a hard to avoid that conclusion that for some people, politics is all about proving that they’re good people.
Even if HIllary gets the vote of every moral person in the country, it’s not enough. She needs a majority.
“The attempts to defend it as something actually worth harping on…. not so much.”
I wasn’t doing that at all. I was talking about how worrying about looks has drawn a lot of politicians into the cosmetic surgeon’s waiting room. I’m talking about how we judge other people by how they look.
Y’all just want to pretend it doesn’t happen. It does.
@DG: When you land a big fish, the humane thing to do is club it to death.
Of course it happens…. like right here and now.
Bowel movements happen all the time too, you dont see anyone speculating on politicians’ morning trip to the bathroom.
I would wear mascara or face powder if it would garner more attention from women but I live in Rehoboth so it may not have the desired effect.
This isn’t about politics – since the post and the comments have nothing to do with someone’s political issues. No one has said looks don’t have impact. No one has said that politicians aren’t getting cosmetic surgery. No one has said that people don’t judge on looks.
I’m not trying to prove I’m a “moral” person. I’m telling you, as a woman, why going after a woman’s looks is wrong to me (and cliche). I don’t go after anyone’s looks. I find that to be a lazy tactic.
Your comments about women’s use of make up places the blame for beauty standards on women. Do you see that? Consider this: Women receive criticism and praise for wearing and not wearing make up. Wear what someone considers too much (and who knows where that line is drawn) and you’ll be accused of slutting it up. Wear no make up and you’ll be told you’re letting yourself go or you should put some effort into your appearance. It’s another no-win scenario.
Not that’s there’s anything wrong with that lol
mouse with a gay joke…..or maybe a trans joke…. wonderful.
” you dont see anyone speculating on politicians’ morning trip to the bathroom.”
Have you checked Trump’s Twitter feed to be sure?
It wasn’t a joke, it’s my reality
Never mind.
if only women reacted to unwanted advances from men, the way straight men fantasize about reacting to advances from gay men……
“I wasn’t just trying to throw a skunk in the window and troll for comments.”
Well when you press the big button that says “OUTRAGE” what did you think you were going to get? A banana?
It is an objective fact that Trump is shallow.
It is an objective fact that Conway is “not conventionally attractive.”
Whatever editorial meaning or outrage you find in this post, you brought with you.
It is not “an objective fact that Conway is “not conventionally attractive.” What does conventionally attractive even mean? Conventionally attractive is subjective. Some people find thin, heavy set, wide smiles, deep set eyes, muscles, etc. attractive and unattractive.
Please stop playing in Trump’s sandbox.
And I very well might have brought my “outrage” with me (nice inflammatory word choice, btw). I am a woman. You might consider that we view these experiences differently because, you know, we have different experiences with this sort of thing.
Pandora, I agree with you except for the comment below. Women decide how much make up is acceptable, straight men have no idea. However, gender bending “goys and birls” like me, do.
“Your comments about women’s use of make up places the blame for beauty standards on women. Do you see that? Consider this: Women receive criticism and praise for wearing and not wearing make up. Wear what someone considers too much (and who knows where that line is drawn) and you’ll be accused of slutting it up. Wear no make up and you’ll be told you’re letting yourself go or you should put some effort into your appearance. It’s another no-win scenario.”
I saw her on the Rachel Maddow show last night and was actually impressed with her. Whatever liberals (or anyone else) thinks of her looks, we better not get complacent. She could actually put the lipstick on that pig named Trump.
Low class article. I’ve enjoyed following, DL & the very thought provoking articles and I get an opportunity to learn from the “Liberal side”.
And, I understand, you don’t have to like everything.
But, very surprised, even if Jason was trying to stir the pot. I even agreed with Pandora!
I am always fascinated that when pandora challenges how men speak she is accused to telling them what to think, or–more accurately–telling them what they are not allowed to think.
This is where (to use a stereotypical category, but wtf this is the thread for it, right?) liberal men appear to prove the conservatives’ point about them. They want the credit for being on the good side of all the correct causes, but only if they can be in charge of how people speak and think.
Black Lives Matter would be ok if it just turned down the heat of the rhetoric and didn’t point out that liberal whites don’t own their movement.
Damn Indians should understand that we mean only positive things when we call them “redskins” and quit trying to point out that it’s the equivalent of having a football team named the Washington Niggers.
Feminism would be ok if women stopped talking about patriarchy and rape, and concentrated on equal economic opportunity, and liberal men were given a repeated public pass in all conversations as the complete exception to criticisms of men in general.
The fact that men (and some women) consider it a defense of appearance jokes about Hillary or Ann Coulter (“drag queen”) to say that they also make jokes about Trump’s hair or Christie’s obesity and are thus “equal opportunity” offenders, and then accuse any woman criticizing them of being the “thought police” is a pretty good indication that they don’t get how much more harm it does to a woman to guffaw about Clinton’s pantsuit than it does to a man to snicker about his toupee.
See, men are tough and can take it, women whine and should just suck it up (yes, I intended the pun) and stop telling us not to tell nigger or fag or pussy jokes ’cause we know they’re insulting, that’s the point. Sorry, channeling my inner Ken Kesey.
Anon complains about “thought police” the way conservatives love to drop “political correctness” in order to simply squelch any serious dialogue about the difference between what you have the right to say, and what you should think twice about saying if you claim to hold certain ideals. Is it being “thought police” to tell people that calling a mentally disabled child a “retard” is both offensive and wrong? I’m not going to censor that person, but I’m also damn sure not going to accept that person as the spokesperson for any cause I’m associated with.
What happens here is that overly sensitive guys jump in to accuse pandora of telling them to shut up as a way of shutting her up, and denying that there’s ever anything wrong with doing appearance shaming when they’re liberals/progressives because they must always be exceptionalized from accountability for their speech because good intentions.
Thank you, Steve.
Thanks Steve!
Steve- I didn’t invent the term conventional attractiveness. As you know, Psychologists and sociologists have been studying it for years. I’m Also not telling anyone to be quiet. What I am saying is that Trump is shallow and is no doubt pained by the fact that his campaign is now fronted by someone who doesn’t fit the ridiculously narrow American beauty standard.
“What I am saying is that Trump is shallow and is no doubt pained by the fact that his campaign is now fronted by someone who doesn’t fit the ridiculously narrow American beauty standard.”
A person like Trump has “convenient” and inconsistent “standards”. He decides when looks matter, and when they don’t. His attacks against someone’s looks depends entirely on whether or not he likes that person. If he likes them, then their looks don’t matter; if he doesn’t like them then he attacks their looks. There’s really no standard here.
jason–I’m not saying you told anybody to shut up. But plenty of other people on this thread did. Or did you miss that?
It’s fine (I guess) to play the “conventionally attractive” card in a post meant to stimulate discussion, but the reality is that when pandora reacted negatively to it, a bunch of liberal guys went ballistic on her and tried to shut her down.
I think you were trying to do sort of a “double back” on Trump and his rhetoric, and I get that, but it didn’t work the way you planned. Posts are like that sometimes.
Do I get lumped in with the cats who “went ballistic?” I hope not.
True. You hope you’ve given them the tools they need to make it in this crazy world, then they leave the house and you just hope for the best.
@Steve: Your logic here does not hold up. Pandora tries to shut down Jason, and by defending him I’m trying to shut her down? So I’m being intolerant about her intolerance. That’s “going ballistic” to you, huh? That makes me question your basic ability to recount events.
If you’ll recall, I said I didn’t find her unattractive, and then talked about how much looks matter to these people. If you don’t want to talk about that, don’t engage. I was trying to steer the topic to something I find interesting and somewhat creepy: that politicians are now literally putting forward a false face.
“Is it being “thought police” to tell people that calling a mentally disabled child a “retard” is both offensive and wrong?”
Yes, it is. We changed the label and then shamed anyone who didn’t get the memo. We started using the word “retarded” because “idiot” and “moron” had gone from scientific terms to insults, and “retarded” eventually did the same. This is part of the “my morals are better than yours” game. Whatever new, neutral name you give the developmentally disabled will be an insult in two generations. It has happened twice before now, and despite liberal sensitivity, human nature is not going to change. People will still separate and stigmatize the other.
You claim pandora did not try to silence Jason. I pointed out that she certainly did. Telling people to “stop playing Trump’s game” is saying “don’t say that.” Don’t pretend you don’t see that.
“I’m not going to censor that person, but I’m also damn sure not going to accept that person as the spokesperson for any cause I’m associated with.”
That’s quite shallow of you. The words are symbols, and they symbolize different things to different people. Because the developmentally disabled are visibly different, they will always be marginalized on sight. What you call them is far less important than how you treat them. Thousands of people treated them well while calling them “retards.”
@pandora:
“Your comments about women’s use of make up places the blame for beauty standards on women. Do you see that?”
No, I don’t. To start with, it’s not “blame.” But the responsibility lies with the person putting on the makeup, doesn’t it? “Beauty standards” are set by things like women’s magazines, which are pretty much the bailiwick of women. Indeed, many women have told me they present themselves as they do not to make an impression on men, but on other women.
The secret here is to stop caring about beauty standards. You obviously think you are being judged by how you look. You are, of course, but nobody forces you to care. I know women who just don’t wear makeup. I’m sure people say things about them, but they don’t care. Why do you?
“Consider this: Women receive criticism and praise for wearing and not wearing make up. Wear what someone considers too much (and who knows where that line is drawn) and you’ll be accused of slutting it up. Wear no make up and you’ll be told you’re letting yourself go or you should put some effort into your appearance. It’s another no-win scenario.”
Only if you think it’s a “game” and that it’s possible to “win” it. What I’m trying to point out is that most women put time, effort and money into presenting themselves a certain way. They’ve been hoodwinked by their insecurities.
The key her is to stop caring. Try it sometime — go shopping without putting on your morning face and your normal toilette. See if the world ends. I guarantee it won’t.
Geez, that’s a lot of assumptions you’re making about me.
kelleyann conway has the ugliest teeth, dry blonde hair and i know she is about 60 but she could look better. She thinks she knows everything and her and trump are both stupid and very evil