Updated II: I have a problem with..the Fort Dix “terror plot”
UPDATE II: ahhhh well I keep reading and I keep getting vindicated. I hate it when I’m right, I really do….If you remember reading this post, I asked how smart could these idiots have been if they couldn’t even figure out how to convert a video to a dvd. Well they are so tactical it seems that they went to a local Circuit City to find out how. Geeeeee, sounds like some real “masterminds” at work doesn’t it?
Also, one of the men, Tatar, called a Philadelphia police officer in November, saying that he had been approached by someone who was pressuring him to obtain a map of Fort Dix, and that he feared the incident was terrorist-related, according to court documents.
uh-huh, terrorists that call the police. Hmmm masterminds indeed.
UPDATE: Well, well, well. the more that comes out about this alleged Terror Plot in Fort Dix the more we shall see how much of a terror plot this was and how much was the FBI pushing along a few morons.
As the case goes forward, the role of the main informer will almost surely be contested. Over the years, informers in terror cases have become the focus of efforts by defense lawyers and others to call into question the legitimacy of the investigations. They have often sought to show that informers engaged in entrapment.
it might have been the informer who helped jump-start another suspect, Serdar Tatar, who still had not followed through on his promise to get a map of the base from his father’s pizzeria near Fort Dix. The two men were discussing Fort Dix, the complaint said, when the informer “expressed anger at the United States.”
something smells fishy to me people. I am on record saying I didn’t like it from the beginning and I don’t like it now.
the NY times know how to close an article that is for sure…
In fact, one of the suspects, Dritan Duka, seemed taken aback by the informer’s listing of the heavy artillery. Mr. Duka appeared to ask the informer if there was anything more he should know about the informer’s background or intentions, including whether he was religious. Asked why he seemed alarmed, Mr. Duka said to the informer, “There was some stuff on the list that was heavy.” And he added an expletive.
In the last recorded conversation cited in the complaint, the men opted only for the machine guns. They would “hold off” on anything more.
I’m hunting wabbits!
I have a problem with this new “terrorist cell plot” that we just magically uncovered. First of all I heard today on Today, that they had been watching these guys for over a year. Second, they have no links to Al Qaeda. 3rd these guys don’t fit the very brilliant type that can pull something like this off. Your first indication of how “brilliant” these idiots are is this:
You mean to tell me that these idiots filmed their “Jihad” movies on video cassette then took them to a video store to convert them to a DVD. If they were so smart why the fuck didn’t they go to Walmart and buy a freaking combo VCR/DVR machine for like $150? You mean these guys didn’t have a Digital Camcorder?
My other point of brilliance is this:
How many “terrorists” are deep undercover go shooting at a well known gun range?
So, does this coincide with President Bush 28% approval rating (Matching Carter’s 1979 low) but nahhhhh, our government wouldn’t ever do something like this to distract from the truth…would they?
DV,
Do you remember the oh so scary “Miami” cell?
The News Journal clearly doesn’t.
If it was fake it would be a stupid move. I predict by 11:14am today the DNC will have their talking points out “See…we are fighting in Iraq but the real terrorism is on US soil” and this will be echoed by every media outlet, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, and just about the entire panel of Democratic Presidential candidates by the end of the day.
This news does not help the administration in any way. Conversely, it does not hurt it. It just is what it is. It is obvious these were a bunch of rengades. Not well planned, not thought out at all. But unfortunately, it is the renegades that are often harder to track. Just imagine if the videostore owner had not tipped off the police. I don’t think their attack would have been hugely successful, but still could have caused some death and destruction.
I sort of agree with you chris, but I don’t think this sort of media push is designed to help the “current” administration.
this wakes up the base, feeds money to the GOP running for President and ratchets up the “fear” card.
also, not to kiss your ass but thanks for commenting, typically Duffy is the mild mannered other side guy…
not that there isn’t room for 2 of your kind, but one token is enough for most rides
Looks like what we have here is agents provocateurs/i> carrying out COINTELPRO operations against US Muslims, coupled with a PR offensive designed to generate domestic propaganda in support of permanent war.
Wow. I’m “mild mannered”. That’s a good sign. That description is usually used for someone who’s alter ego is a superhero.
While I agree these were not the brightest of bulbs even dumb people can cause havoc and fear.
Should we not report these unless they are successful or the terrorists are bright enough?
IMNHO, this is about the FBI tooting it’s own horn, not the Bush Admin.
has anyone ever told you your questions are Yoda like?
Good old fashioned police work. The kind of eye-on-the-ball, “grind it out” day to day operation that worked for Bill Clinton and Bush ridicules in favor of bombing the shit out of a random country.
“Good old fashioned police work. The kind of eye-on-the-ball, “grind it out” day to day operation that worked for Bill Clinton …”
Except it was usually him being investigated…
Hardy har.
Ever hear of Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman? In October of 1995 he was sentenced to life imprisonment for masterminding the first bombing of the WTC.
What has Bush done?
Looks like what we have here is agents provocateurs carrying out COINTELPRO operations against US Muslims, coupled with a PR offensive designed to generate domestic propaganda in support of permanent war.
That should read, “In October of 1995, Bill Clinton closed the barn door after the horses ran away.”
The whole point of this exercise is that we need to look harder at our cab drivers and 7-11 employees, and stop being so sensitive about racial profiling of Muslims. It’s hard to understand why you guys are so worked up about Mormonism, but you’ll give Islam a pass.
Mormonism is evil. That’s why.
you know we need to look closer at black people b/c most of them deal drugs.
We should start watching Asians in schools b/c they might be cheating on their tests
I suggest we start carding people that appear Spanish too for proof of citizenship
I think that we should monitor all Italians to make sure they aren’t connected to the mob
I think that we should closely watch anyone with an Eastern European accent. they could be a commie!
don’t forget Judeism G, tho
those guys killed Jesus! Keep an eye on the Jews.
you can spot them by their horns!
DV, being black, Asian, Hispanic, or Italian or whatever race isn’t the same as belonging to an ideology that wants to kill or subjugate all non-believers. Are there any commies left in Eastern Europe? No, I don’t think so – just on American college campuses. Thanks again, Reagan!
The whole point of this exercise is that we need to look harder at our cab drivers and 7-11 employees, and stop being so sensitive about racial profiling of Muslims”
pardon me if I mistook that assinine statement as nothing but bigotry.
Hey this just in, there are some people of Middle Eastern dissent that are Christian!! only a few hundred million though so I can see how you might not have been hip to that kind of info.
when did all muslims want to subjugate us?
another assinine statment.
Not so asinine if you look at their track record. Start with the building of a mosque on top of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and work your way forward.
hold on G you are right I should look at this again
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.
.
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nope
more fucking assine the second time around.
I forgot Christians NEVER persecuted anyone
It’s spelled “asinine” you dope. Yes, we did our fair share of persecuting, but I’m pretty sure the last jihad was against the Mormons. Now we have radical mosques like the one in New Jersey, and people get upset when you say “Islamic extremist.”
for you it is assinine bigot.
and I like your “WE” reference, amusing at best, scary at it’s worst. As if you had something to do with the current Christian rise to “peace”.
You know some would argue that the Iraq War is Christian vs Muslim. OUR president is Born Again and bombing the Muslims like hell….He did say it was a “crusade” you know? or do you conveniently forget that when you try to argue your point?
but ahhh you are right, those dirty Muslims jihaded against the Mormon’s last.
Thanks for keeping score. WE appreciate it.
and by the way I don’t get upset when you say Islamic Extremist, I get upset when you lump them with the Muslims. or assume that they are interchangeable. Hube has in the past and I blasted him for it too.
I get upseat when morons like you assume all people driving cabs are Muslim, when people like you think your religion is better then someone elses, when people like you think your way is right and their way is wrong. I get upset when people like want to take my rights away using the veil of protecting me as a reason to limit my freedoms, to profile people and throw them in jail without lawyers, without a reason and by using illegal search and seizure tactics.
That my friend is what I get upset about. That my friend is what WE get upset about.
But it’s totally cool for Jason to say Mormonism is evil. Got it.
“You know some would argue that the Iraq War is Christian vs Muslim.”
I thought our troops were in the middle of a civil war? A Muslim vs. Muslim one at that? I guess that means Clinton should have let the Serbs wipe out the Kosovars.
the difference is jason is kidding
Total all out profiling doesn’t make sense. However….all the 9-11 hijackers had traits in common…they all looked similar (before you flame me I did not say they all looked alike, but there were similarities). It makes no sense at all to be double checking old italian, irish, white or even african-american women in an airport while waving through a group of young arab men because they there tickets were not drawn at random for secondary screening. We have to use common sense. I AM NOT advocating that every individual of middle-eastern descent be put through the wringer everytime they take a flight, but we cannot ignore their race altogether.
Police, when looking for a wanted individual, are given the individuals gender, hight, age, and ethnicity. They will then question anyone matching that description, IF that individual could reasonably have been involved.
Yes, I know. We shouldn’t stop random checks altogether, because they terrorist will just start using people that do not fit the profile. When when 80 year-old irish women start jihading, then we can address the situation.
Chris,
I understand what you are saying, but did you hear George Tenet the other day?
He said he is confident that the next “attack” the people they recruit will be white or look whiter. He suspects they will be more asain looking then Middle Eastern
so if that is true…what good does profiling do?
But the profiling is done on more than just whether or not they are “middle eastern”. As evidenced by the Albanians arrested the other day.
However, there are other common characteristics like age, gender, overall behavior.
I still do not see them recruiting 80 year old Irish women or 4 month-old newborns. So why are we wasting time secondarily screening them? If a trained professional gets an uneasy feeling they should have the ability to secondarily screen without worrying that they will be fired or sued because the person was not randomly selected. Airlines have been fined for such things. And that needs to stop!
Mind controlled dupes of limited intelligence are useful for creating pathetic little mini-plots like this one. These routine “terror” busts are inside set ups using ‘informants’ to manipulate really stupid and suggestible young males into these dead end schemes. Their actions seem to be so flagrant that they invite scrutiny and eventual bust. No would be terrorist could really be this stupid and obvious. It takes orders to make that happen.
The kind of people involved with these aborted ‘plots’ always have controllers behind them. Suicide bombers or their like don’t just wake up grab their bomb vest and stroll out to market. They are highly coached usually because they are too stupid or unequipped to pull anything off on their own.
They make perfect PR for the feds who want to create the impression that terror is on our doorstep. There is a jihad cell in every neighborhood!
The big question here is who controlled these guys? If it was international jihadist influence why has that not been uncovered? Did the feds drop the ball? Or is it that the trail would lead right back to them?
It is hard to believe that if this was a real terror plot that the feds would splash it all over the press. It is a bit too convenient for terrorism PR. From investigative and surveillance standpoints it is inexcusable. You don’t uncover larger plots or players by splashing them all over the news.
Yes this does stink.
“It is hard to believe that if this was a real terror plot that the feds would splash it all over the press. It is a bit too convenient for terrorism PR. From investigative and surveillance standpoints it is inexcusable. You don’t uncover larger plots or players by splashing them all over the news.”
And if they quietly arrested them and spirited them off to Gitmo for further intelligence gathering, the authorities would have been branded (again) criminals.
You can’t have it both ways. Let us know what you would prefer. Can’t make a move without ticking off a liberal one way or the other.
So detention requires torture and abuse? Maybe in your mind.
A government as maniacal about secrecy as this one isn’t exactly credible when they splash a “big terror bust” all over the news.
I think you are the one who wants it both ways. As long as the fear PR goes to plan right?
Typical false choice from Chris. It is either make big PR points OR secret torture.
Kill tens of thousands of Iraqis OR, suitcase bombs going off in Iowa.
Are you so “all or nothing” around the house Chris?
“Honey, we are either going to Disney this year for vacation OR, I’m locking you and the kids in the basement for a week. Your choice.”
“But the profiling is done on more than just whether or not they are “middle eastern”. As evidenced by the Albanians arrested the other day.”
The Albanian arrests were NOT a product of profiling — the Feds were given a heads up by a video copy guy who thought the training video they shot was out of line. Profiling is what the TSA (supposedly) does for some secondary screening or how they come up with their No-Fly list, what Customs (supposedly) does for secondary screening, what the police (supposedly) do when deciding when to search a car they’ve stopped.
Richard Clarke has been pretty vocal about the uselessness of profiling — given that Albanians, Chechens and others from that neighborhood are in the pipeline.
At bottom, the real issue is that this administration has been very invested in its various displays of “security theater” and not in investing in real security.
Lemme tell ya something, the kind of “security” this administration really wants would have everyone running for their lives. They will never have it because there is a God and it isn’t the one they claim to worship by spilling blood.
“Honey, we are either going to Disney this year for vacation OR, I’m locking you and the kids in the basement for a week. Your choice.”
Now you know why I get to go to Disney alot…
Lemme tell ya something, the kind of “security” this administration really wants would have everyone running for their lives.
And how does that differ from the lefts “Global warming with destroy the earth!” mentality?
I have freely acknowledged that we need to do a better job of border security. But declaring the war lost, and running with our tail between our legs is EXACTLY what got us 9-11 to begin with. Again, (since you obviously didn’t pay attention when I said this the first time last week), Osama himself said he decided he could attack America after us pull out of Somalia at the first sign of trouble. Remember…”paper tiger”? If we pull out of Iraq they aren’t going to send us thank you cards people! You think our presence there is ratcheting them up, NOTHING will do that more than giving up and running. If you are going to throw in the towel, at least do it right. Fly them over here at tax payers expense, give themm free room and board, reperations and access to all the bomb making material we can lay our hands on. If you have the stones to declare it lost….then REALLY delcare it lost. It may seem an “all or nothing” point of view….but sometimes the world really is black and white. Sorry if that doesn’t fit in to your “shades of gray” point of view.
They will never have it because there is a God and it isn’t the one they claim to worship by spilling blood.
“They will never have it because there is a God and it isn’t the one they claim to worship by spilling blood.”
Interesting statement from a side that has done everything in their power to remove God from society.
There is a jihad cell in every neighborhood!
A sudden vision… The world is crying out for a cartoon series about the lovable and bumbling jihadis down the street, a la Mad Magazine or Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers. The boys would be constantly on the run from equally bungling DHS agents, frequently blowing themselves up, sending the “fat and stupid brother” out to score some explosives, trying but never able to get in touch with Osama…
Interesting statement from a side that has done everything in their power to remove God from society.
ahhhhhhh, that is where you are wrong Chris…
from Government my friend, government. Big Difference.
The more God is removed from government, the more room for Him in society.
“The more God is removed from government, the more room for Him in society.”
Really? But just where do the boundries of “governement” stop.
A town wishes to erect a nativity scene at Christmas in the town square. Oopps, sorry. municipal land.
Students who spend nearly all day in school, wish to come a little early to school and have a bible study. Sorry. Public School…no dice.
Valedictorian of the graduating class has a deep faith and wishes to thank God in her speech at Graduation. ‘Fraid not. Public school again.
When I graduated, my high school had a Baccalaureate service in the morning. Optional, but well attended. Stopped that a few years back. Can’t even help the local churches communicate information about an “unofficial” one they are having. Public school.
What kills me is that in all of these cases the justification is that they must prevent free exercise of religion in an effort to preserve free exercise of religion. You know, the Constitutional right to “separation of church and state”, which I can’t seem to find in the the Constitution. Wierd.
And before you quote the first amendment to me , let me quote it to you.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,”….
You have a valid point…if only it stopped there. Now I realize that people the left probably are unfamiliar with this next part but it really is in there..
“…or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”
In every one of the examples I mentioned above the did just that.
you are hijacking the thread…
stay focused.
if you want to quote an ammendment the 4th directly applies to your “profiling” wishes
“Interesting statement from a side that has done everything in their power to remove God from society.”
Sorry “Chris” but you have no frigging clue what “side” I am on. I don’t take sides or make sides except to be an American patriot railing against the lunacy you so vigorously and terribly defend ad nauseam.
You take your “side”, the rest of us will work for some rationality and accountability for a change. We will leave it to people like you to divvy the world up into your “sides”.
“You take your “side”, the rest of us will work for some rationality and accountability for a change. We will leave it to people like you to divvy the world up into your “sides”.”
Had this statement come from donviti, I could give it some accountability. He seems at least willing to rationally consider another point of view. But I am afraid this statement is downright comical coming from you. Your partisanship is abundantly clear.
Now, to get back on thread. There are currently commonalities with terrorist and we need to consider those commonalities. If you want to call the “profiling” go ahead. But I will stick with the term “intelligent screening”.
The question of profiling really boils down this choice: What kind of a society do we want ourselves to be.
The founding fathers lived dangerous lives and valued freedom over safety. It was Franklin who said: “Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
We, comparatively, live much safer, thanks in part to the principals that were laid down in our constitution.
However, our propensity to hurtle ourselves down concrete ribbons at seventy plus miles per hour, as opposed to safely climbing aboard public transportation, portends that we still prefer freedom over safety.
To profile, or not, boils down to one point.
Are we safer to have an open society, and overlook the oddball who does not fit in, or to criminalize the entire oddball sect, and then defend ourselves against the full affront of it’s and it’s friend’s animosity?
The wisdom of bravely choosing an open society is that one enemy is less of a risk than say 40,000.
Perhaps this is something more readily understood back then, when the fact that one was alive at thirty was an exception, and beat the odds over the fact that you are not……..
Life has to mean something to each of us. Anytime we force someone into the box where they see their life as meaningless, then killing us off is the sole recourse they have to make themselves meaningful.
Whether it is in foreign policy, military action, or just plain simple governance, one has to understand this basic of human nature.
bravo Kavips. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
An omnipotent security police state is not what our founders risked all for. In fact it was exactly what they were fighting.
The idea of “live free or die” was not the stuff of slogans back then. They meant it.
The spiraling politics of greed and power are corroding the bases of civic duty and public order that have kept our country together for so long.
We may end up in a new revolution in this country, in keeping with the way it was originally founded. Just like then it will begin with taxes and millions of people refusing to pay them. We should welcome it since it just may save our country.
WHAT A BUNCH OF HYPOCRITES! You talk of freedom and government staying out of people’s lives. But when the Democrats are in power it is all about building bigger and bigger government. Government regulations on this that and the other. More money being taken from us each and every year. And why? “We are just helping those in need.” Not hardly.
Imus makes a stupid remark on the air, and he should be run out of town. Kids want to pray in school and they are told that is not allowed. “Hate crime” laws are being put on the books as if the crime was more heinous because of the thought behind it. You want to talk about police state!
Yes, there is some danger in trading a little liberty for security and ultimately we will have to monitor it. But how many liberties do we routinely lose to “social change”. You sirs have absolutely no leg to stand on when it comes to “Live Free or Die”. The liberal motto is “Live According to the Social Moires we dictate…or Die”.
Kavips post was eloquent and much of it I would agree with…the problem is…most liberals think they do…but tend to do the opposite.
“To profile, or not, boils down to one point.
Are we safer to have an open society, and overlook the oddball who does not fit in, or to criminalize the entire oddball sect, and then defend ourselves against the full affront of it’s and it’s friend’s animosity?”
Sadly, until we can figure out how to isolate the oddball from the oddball sect, we have no choice. The oddball sect needs to step up an police itself. Something it so far has not seemed willing to do. If I found someone in my church or community that was planning a terroristic act, I would turn them in in a heartbeat. The “oddball sect” needs to do the same thing.
isnt the government under this republican admin larger than any democratic one ever was?
The oddball sect needs to step up an police itself.
and since they don’t we turn into a police state? that makes no sense. You just talked about us creating bigger government, what do you think your version will be? Smaller?
I like my freedom just the way it is. I have taught my children the value and meaning of the 4th ammendment.
there will always be oddballs no matter how hard we try to monitor people.
christ, look at Kirk Cameron!
It is astounding that everyhting he says is wrong. He does not even stumble over the truth by accident.
For instance:
when the Democrats are in power it is all about building bigger and bigger government.
Amazing.
“Live According to the Social Moires we dictate…or Die”.
Interesting. What would Bush’s religious right buddies have to say? We all know they are not about dictating “social” mores, eh?
“christ, look at Kirk Cameron!”
I’d rather not. I don’t think Christ would either.
“isnt the government under this republican admin larger than any democratic one ever was?”
Not going to argue with you there. But as I have pointed out in other posts, this is one area where Republicans have strong disagreements with Bush. He was supposed to lessen government and he didn’t.
“It is astounding that everyhting he says is wrong. He does not even stumble over the truth by accident.”
Really? Based on what? Are democrats famous for cutting government? I must have missed that in my lifetime. How about cutting taxes? No wait…not for that either. So again…where I am being untruthful?
“Interesting. What would Bush’s religious right buddies have to say? We all know they are not about dictating “social” mores, eh?”
Short of trying to prevent unborn babies from being slaughtered and a wholesale redefining of the word “marriage” what other moire’s are they trying to dictate? I don’t see them telling people what they can and cannot think.
“The oddball sect needs to step up an police itself. and since they don’t we turn into a police state? that makes no sense.”
Police state? It is a HUGE intellectual leap from common sense screening to police state. Ever flown outside the US? Even the “enlightened” European countries have guards with Uzis at the airport giving everyone the once over twice. We are talking about using common characteristics to enhance security. Like I have said before, police do it all the time. APBs routinely include the race, age, and gender of the suspect. This often results is police questioning people who were not otherwise involved, but no one would dare suggest we change that practice. Our police would not be able to efficiently do their job otherwise. Yet we ask our airplane screeners to operate with their hands tied behind their back. That is what “doesn’t make sense”.
Dear Chris, may I respectfully suggest that you consider starting a a blog of your very own?
You obviously have a great deal to say, and a strong desire to comment on the issues of the day. While your comments on this blog (and, I assume, others) provide a welcome counterpoint, there are times when your commentary appears to be of a length that might better be offered as individual blog entries, on which others might offer comments.
In other words, and in the common parlance of bloggers, “GYOFB.”
Of course, if you already have a blog, please provide a link. I would be most interested.
“Dear Chris, may I respectfully suggest that you consider starting a a blog of your very own?”
Novel idea. But the idea is to bring some common sense to you all. And I doubt most of you would visit a conservative blog. I have never been one to preach to the choir.