Will California lead the way?
The Field has learned that Cardoza is the first of a group of at least 40 Clinton delegates, many of them from California, that through talking among themselves came to a joint decision that all of them would vote for Obama at the convention. They have informed Senator Clinton that it’s time to unite around Obama, and that they will be coming out, one or two at a time, and announcing their switch between now and the convention if Senator Clinton doesn’t do the same.
Have we finally reached “the end it, or we’ll end it for you” stage?
Tags: 2008 Presidential, Hillary Clinton
This is great news. I am sure everyone has heard of her RFK assasination retort.
It is one of her talking points since she said it before to Time in early March.
Oh, god. You guys will milk anything that comes out of her mouth. That’s so not in line with Obama’s bucking the trend of old school politics, now is it? I guess the change won’t actually start until he’s elected president, huh?
She said that to point out that it’s not unheard of for primaries to run into June. Was it a poor choice of references? Yes. But, please, let’s not overdramatize yet again.
FTR, I hope she drops out, too. I’m exhausted from all of the nastiness from all of you Obama supporters. This is just so old.
Maybe once she’s out of the picture, you’ll start obsessing over someone else’s shortcomings since that’s the way to victory for Obama. God forbid anyone could hold up anything in particular that he’s done to deserve to be elected. I still haven’t heard a single specific accomplishment of his that qualifies him to be president. All I get is sweeping generalizations – he’s so inspirational, etc. I’m still waiting for someone to give me some examples of when he has made changes. I mean, with his YEARS of experience, I’m sure he’s had plenty of opportunity to make sweeping changes in the way Illinois did things, right? It shouldn’t be too hard to come up with just a couple of examples.
Dom, I really liked his approach to Cuba… and he made that stand in Florida. Kinda like his approach to Iran and his stance on fuel efficiency in Detroit.
Come on, this is a major change in mindset. I won’t even bring up the gas tax issue…
The Kennedy comment was stupid, but I’m willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, because the other option is too horrific to believe.
If she mentions it again, however…
yes the Kenneny comment was stupid but not off the mark if we remember Obama was given Secret Service protection even before he was leading in this race.
Dom I am with you on this I haven’t heard or seen anything that he has done since that one speech before he had a vote. However, after he became a senator when it came to Iraq his votes mirrows Hillarys. One of the few inportant things they did differ on which effects us all today at the pump Hillary voted against Cheney’s engery bill Obama voted for it. So when your paying $4.36 a gallon like I am here in Calaforina like I did this morning I ask myself when it counted who was looking after my interest?
Kennedy
My goodness, over react much Mrs. Marshall?
What about my comment was ‘nasty’ ? That it is one of her talking points? I think it is right out of the Rove school.
She has used it at least once before according to the Swampland blog today.
I hope that Pandora hasn’t wasted her breath here and Dominique pays attention. The fixation that Obama followers are mental midgets and that he has nothing to offer is getting pretty old.
Nancy it may be in bad taste however the Secret Service though it might be possiable not that any of us want to go through another tragic event . She just stated the fact that shit happens
I find it surprising that you Nancy and others on this site tend to excuse and faults that Obama has, However, I find it strange that he would support the Veep and his oil buddies and not a peep about it on this site.
Hey TT, Huck made an assasination joke for the benefit of the NRA crowd last week.
Mrs. Marshall is as if in a stupor. Any irksome thing that her candidate does is evidently off limits for comment? Well, tough shit. This is about who will take this country back from the corrupt hands of Bushco.
If she is dim enough to think that a vote for McCain is OK then she has no standing on what is or isn’t fitness to put our country back on track. Frankly, spewing inane insults and scratching the sores on one’s thin skin makes for misery all around. No, it can’t end soon enough.
huh, I just realized that my first comment is being taken the wrong way because of how I constructed the paragraphs.
The good news is “40 Clinton delegates, many of them from California, that through talking among themselves came to a joint decision that all of them would vote for Obama at the convention.”
If anyone read it any other way I am sorry.
TT, give a linkee to where Obama supports Cheney and big oil and we can discuss it. Otherwise…
oh, and you also have ignored what Pandora offered about Obama.
And he came out and said it was in bad taste lets not forget that everyone steps on their tongue now and then just like Obama did in Marin county when his words on bitterness were played on the airwayes by the Rush limpballs as saying all small town folks were a bunch of gun nuts and religious bigiots
he supported the Vice Presidents engerny bill if you remember the Veep held it behind closed doors and we still don’t know who from big oil drew it up. and rember for it passed with obama help oil was at $32.00 a barrell today it hie $137.00
Daily Kos agrees with me that since she said this before, it is a talking point/tactic.
“Once might be a mistake, twice and it’s a tactic. An offensive, ugly tactic from a failed campaign whose only hope is to raise the possibility that something might happen to Obama. The willingness to say such a thing in a cheap effort to sway superdelegates is disgusting.”
If you think this gaff would sway superdelegates then you better stop and think. Look this was nothing more than a slip of the tongue but i seen how Matthews a confirmed Clinton hater has jumped on it already .Never the less all she did was to state a fact of history that’s not what Huck did
After refering to RFK in her comments, I think all the superdelgates should jump off the Clinton ship. That was just incredible…
Clinton supporters need to remember 1 thing….someone must lose.
She fought the good fight, her campaign screwed up big time by not preparing for post-super Tuesday & by not having a plan B or C (sound familiar??)
Want to know more about Obama??….Stop whining & read 1 or both of his books…..read “The Audacity of Hope” & then come back to this forum & say you don’t know what he is about….
Oh, well, Daily Kos says it so it must be true. Again, she was simply referring to the fact that primaries can run into June. That’s BREAKING NEWS on MSNBC? She cited RFK’s assassination in comments about the primary race. Wow, and here it was such a big secret.
FTR, I thought her Bosnia gaffe was stupid. I don’t think she’s flawless by any stretch of the imagination, but I think Obama supporters are showing incredible impatience. This will all be over soon enough and your candidate will get the nomination. No need to throw temper tantrums about the slightest little thing. This latest attempt to shame her into dropping out is so transparent. Don’t misunderstand me, I want her to drop out, too, but a party interested in unity probably shouldn’t continue to bloody the dead horse.
The RFK thing was not a gaffe. She has said this before, which makes it a Talking Point. A tasteless, boneheaded talking point which apparently all of the rest of us are not supposed to see the lack of moral character, the spectacular misjudgment and overall cynical communication style that characterizes great American Leaders everywhere. Is that the deal?
The fixation that Obama followers are mental midgets and that he has nothing to offer is getting pretty old.
No f’ing kidding, Nancy. And I point out that the HRC supporters who are harboring all of their well-nurtured bitterness against Barack would have never have had reason to nurture that bitterness if in fact their candidate had run a much better campaign. And if their candidate had not voted with BushCo just a few too many times too often. And if their candidate didn’t make it really easy to see that her resume was awfully thin by trying to claim her husband’s record just abit too often. And if their candidate didn’t remind just a few too many people just what didn’t get accomplished because her husband was otherwise occupied.
Let’s remember that she was the front runner for this thing up until late fall, early winter and she lost it. It was hers until it because clear that she believed the “inevitable” hype; and working harder and smarter can trump “inevitable”.
So while all of the HRC supporters who have new parties to blame every week for the failure of their candidate, let me know when you are ready to deal with Reason #1 why she does not have this nomination locked up.
One other instance where HRC made the same comment. In March.
Yes, Stella, great idea. I’ll go out and buy both of his books himself. I’m sure they were objective accounts of his fascinating life.
Thanks, but I’ll pass. I know all I have to know about Obama The Man from watching the 24/7 coverage of his Awesomeness. I’m a little more interested in knowing why he didn’t already made these sweeping changes he speaks of in Illinois – or even in his first two years in Washington.
Pandora – what’s so great about his stance on Cuba and Iran? He’s suggesting talking to both of them. Gee, why didn’t anyone else ever think to do that? Not that most Obama supporters are remotely interested in reading any dissenting opinions, but here’s an interesting article about his plans to wave his magic unity wand and fix all the ills of the world…
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/05/obamas_unique_appeasement_styl.html
Again, we agree on one thing – I want her out of the race and back in the Senate ASAP.
OMG – do you guys just read specific words and gloss over the rest? It’s a talking point about how the primaries don’t always end early. She wasn’t suggesting that Obama may get assassinated.
For the love of christ, please stop being so dramatic.
Cassandra – you’re one to talk about talking points. Your last post was loaded with them.
I don’t think anyone here was accusing HRC of suggesting Obama might be assassinated. I do think (speaking of glossing over people’s words) that most of us are pretty appalled at the sheer tastelessness of invoking that tragedy as one of her reasons for hanging on. In case there’s some surprise out there that might be in her favor, I guess.
And hey — were you so insistent over tamping down the drama when Obama’s “clinging to guns” comment was beaten to death?
Look Dom the obama supporters are a bunch of Clinton haters they tried to get her out of this race since Iowa look at how they Booed John Edeards when he mention her name at the Obama endoresment Huffington Post is just filled with hateful bile about her even to the point that maybe she and bill should be elimated don’t look for any thoughtful debate here if you are not a member of the chior singing omama obama you will get one liners to refut you points without any facts to back them up or be called names
Your last post was loaded with them.
There is no law against just saying you can’t address the arguments given.
But we’ll wait for you to go find the HRC refutation of these points, if you like.
I don’t appreciate being called a Clinton-Hater TT…..maybe some of us actually researched our choices……(that includes reading Obama’s books & Clinton’s books & reading their websites & getting news from sources other than the MSM, etc)……I am NOT supporting Obama because of my feelings for Clinton….CLINTON HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY CHOICE…..
My son spent 4 years in the Army & over 1 year in Baghdad……I have been obsessed with watching the Bush administration since 2003…..it has become my passion (getting the Repubs out of office)…..and I have concluded that Obama is our best chance for changing the DC stranglehold & the DC game…..
Stop the name calling & grow-up……so we disagree…..why bring hatred & immaturity into this????????
Oh & Dom….ever heard of a library??…take a few hours & do a little research before you go off on a subject (traditional media does not count as research)….how open minded of you to think you know what is in a book…..
Stella does thou protest to much
Actually NO….I read more than I post here….but you guys are getting a bit nuts about how the Obama people are out to get your gal & how awful he is….
maybe you are protesting too much….
Sorry, Cassandra, I stopped taking your post seriously when you brought up Monica Lewinsky. It just cheapened the rest of it for me.
Yes, she made a HUGE mistake in hiring Mark Penn. Yes, her campaign should have planned better. However, if there’s anything I’ve learned from GWB, it’s that a strong campaign does not in any way equate to a good leader.
In terms of her resume being thin, I hardly think an Obama supporter should bring this up as a point of contention. Her experience with failing at getting universal healthcare for our country was probably the greatest learning experience she’s ever had. Can you please explain to me exactly what he did as a community organizer? My understanding is that it was no more than a voter registration drive. I could be wrong, but has anyone that he worked with back then even come forth to rave about his efforts?
Stella – What does anyone really know about Obama? What makes you think he won’t be Swiftboated just like Kerry? It seems like every week there’s another shady person he claims to not be associated with (except that they donated to his campaign and/or held fundraisers for him). What makes you think he’s the Dem’s best chance to get the Republicans out of office when you really don’t know anything about him?
I know more about him than I do the real Hillary Clinton.
We’ll see about that. I have a sneaky suspicion that the coming months will be full of surprises.
FTR, I hope all of you are right and I am dead wrong. I hope, if he manages to win the election, he turns out to be the most wonderful president in the history of the world. I hope he comes through on all of his promises. I really do.
Wow! I go out for a few drinks and all hell breaks loose.
First, I do not hate Hillary Clinton. Go back and reread my posts and comments if you don’t believe me. My post this evening was simply drawing a conclusion from an endorsement, and the promise of other endorsements.
What’s really getting old is Hillary supporters complaining about how badly they and their candidate are treated and then turning around and calling my candidate an ’empty suit’ and me a ‘Clinton hater’.
And as far as her comments about RFK… I stated ABOVE that I’d give her the benefit of the doubt, but maybe I was wrong since TT says she had a legitimate point – secret service and all.
So which is it? Was she tired and misspoke or was what she said about RFK a legitimate issue?
Careful now… I have your previous posts in print.
So now you aren’t even bothering to gloss over what folks write here. I certainly never mentioned Monica Lewinsky. But do understand that your argument is vastly easier if I had.
My point about resumes is that HRC is just as vulnerable to the thin resume argument. She has the advantage of being around longer so folks can presume that there is something there, but there is little major legislation passed with her name on it, she’s made no changes in DC in the 8 years she has been there, and, frankly, her best political accomplishment is getting elected as the Senator from New York after living in Little Rock and DC for much of her adult life. If there was any learning experience from the health care debacle none of that has been on display in the past 8 years of her senatorial term. Unless you want to count her vote to authorize the Iraq war as part of that experience. Much of the rest she claims is connected to her husband’s Presidency which she wants you to believe she was a co-President in.
Mark Penn turns out to be something of the least of her campaign problems as the past couple of months would demonstrate. And while I agree that strong campaigns don’t mean you get good leaders, a strong campaign is the only path for a good leader to a position of governmental power. Unless you do it Dick Cheney-style. Relying on special pleading after botching the process isn’t exactly the hallmark of a future good leader, which is another lesson GWB has taught us.
The problem with using 1968 as a reference point for a long primary season is that the timing of state contests then was nothing like it is today.
For one thing, RFK was shot the night of the California primary. Back then, the first primary was in March; the second was in April. Cali held its voting June 3, same as South Dakota. But the majority of states held caucuses, not primaries, and none of the caucus states had met yet. Nothing was settled by June 3 — Hubert Humphrey, the eventual nominee, didn’t run in ANY primaries.
IOW, it was an entirely different world in terms of timing — and Hillary knows it. June wasn’t late then, but it is now.
This will all be over soon enough and your candidate will get the nomination. No need to throw temper tantrums about the slightest little thing.
*
That is bullshit.
She intends to take this to Denver, using the MI FL ‘issue’ to be addressed then at the rules committee and not before.
She is putting out more and more ugliness and making it harder for her backers to reconcile with the now-eventual nominee.
Even if he gets the numbers of delegates that wins him the nomination, she intends not to accede until the bitter end of August.
~~~~~~
they tried to get her out of this race since Iowa
*
This is another of Clinton total bullshit talking points. I couldn’t believe it when she said this the other day. She meant to rile her supporters with a passion ‘of the injustice’ oh the humanity’
Who the fuck tried to get rid of Clinton right off the bat? Nobody. Boo fucking Hoo.
Cassandra –
Perhaps I misunderstood you when you said that ‘her husband was otherwise occupied’. What were you referring to?
Is ‘boo hoo’ the new chant in Obamaland? I’m noticing it more and more lately.
Dom, it is odd that you notice anything that isn’t printed on Clinton’s website or pressed from MSM teevee news. Boo Hoo isn’t a campaign slogan it is a term I am well known for tossing at cry baby sore losers
Your diving for a RealPolitics quote while slamming Kos is just another of the hypocritical positions that shovel credibility out the window…
Here is something else from Kos to chew on for those who are guessing that Clinton just won’t let go even when she isn’t getting the votes:
“In a move that could foreshadow a public push from the Hillary forces to get Barack Obama to invite her on the ticket, Hillary’s top campaign fundraising official said in an interview that there’s a “risk” that Hillary’s political and financial supporters won’t get behind Obama in time for him to win in November if she’s passed over for the veep slot.
The fundraiser, businessman Hassan Nemazee, is Hillary’s leading finance chair and one of the most influential money men in the party. He’s the first prominent Hillary campaign official to raise the possiblity of an Obama loss should she not be invited on the ticket, and his comments suggests that this argument could emerge as central to any Clinton camp push to make her veep.”
Look, I like women in office, Michelle Blanchete of Chile is a great president. But I think after Hillary’s comments comparing this election cycle to the 1968 assination of RFK was a shameful and very desperate thing for her to do to try to get votes.
She seems to be driven by her desire to be president more than the goal of working for the people. That is disturbing. For a long time all of her statements were “WHAT I CAN DO FOR YOU” she seems to miss the point that it is “WE” the people who can restore this nation.
It is a troubling phenomenon. We are in this together and are one nation….we need a president who can remind us of that fact.
“Her husband otherwise occupied” refers to the multiple crazy issues (some real, many bogus) that frequently came to the top of the management pile at the expense of the real work of the US (and certainly at the expense of a deeper political agenda) — Travelgate, Whitewater, Vince Foster, Rose Law Firm billing files, Troopergate, Lincoln Bedroom idiocy and whatever else you want to add to this list counts for “otherwise occupied”.
What exactly are “we the people” going to do to restore our nation? What’s the plan? Why wait till January – I want to get a head start. C’mon, guys, what will we do first?
This is sooo exciting!
We can change our mindset. We can think differently. To me, that would be the first step.
Mock me all you want. I never claimed to believe in miracles. I never claimed Obama wasn’t a politician. (Actually, he’s an astonishingly good politician. Just ask Hillary.)
Restoring a nation won’t be accomplished by one man or one woman. That’s where the ‘we’ comes in. Our country has always been in our hands only we’ve been too lazy, too afraid, too disinterested… This year the electorate doesn’t seem to possess any of these traits… and that, to me, is a big change.
I don’t think it’s all that big a change if you look at the 2004 and 2006 elections. Yes, Obama has motivated the students to come out, but so did Dean.
Changing mindsets is all well and good, but how is that going to change the way our government is run? How is that going to change the way our tax dollars are squandered? Is it just going to make us feel better about the shitty economy or the war? What exactly is going to change? I guess that’s what I’m hung up on. ‘Change’ is such vague promise. Gimme details – realistic details – and I might be more inclined to buy into it all. So far I haven’t heard any details.
I watched keith last night rip into her and i was surprised how he lied about the press not wanting her out all we have heard form him and Matthews and that bunch at MSNBC is the math doesn’t work why is she still in this the super Hacks should end it she creams Obama in WV and KY and they still keep insisting that she should go because she might be hurting the party if thats not trying to force her out then I have a bridge for sale
“Changing mindsets is all well and good, but how is that going to change the way our government is run? How is that going to change the way our tax dollars are squandered? Is it just going to make us feel better about the shitty economy or the war? What exactly is going to change?”
Dominique, how about we start with this: demand that anyone running for office follow the constitution and have some understanding of the history and Jeffersonian tradition of this nation. From the local sheriff to the president.
Brian I like your idea of demanding that elective officals follow the Constitution however don’t they all swear to uphold it when taking office. The biggest threat to the consitution has been congress under the leadership (if you can call it that) of Nancy Pelose she has allowed Bush to tear it to shreads and in some cases aided and abetted him
TT: I still think that following and defending the constitution is the change many Americans are looking for. So we should set it as a standard and demand it of officals and hold them accountable when they choose to disregard it, it is a good first step.
Nancy, Real Clear Politics posts articles from all sides of the political spectrum. How can you in any way equate them with DK, the 24/7 Obamalove site?
That sounds great, Brian, but it’s another sweeping generalization. Whom do you suggest we call? What should we say? How will asking elected officials to uphold the constitution make it happen? How will this effort be organized?
It’s so easy to say “change we can believe in”. It’s a really great slogan, but what does it mean? What has Obama proposed he’s going to change (specifically) and how does he propose to do it?
Are you referring to him meeting with other world leaders? That’s not exactly unprecedented.
I’m not being snarky, I’m serious.
This is a “change” election. No matter what. Hillary missed the message… Big time. Her message was experience, and she played it for all its worth. Huge mistake.
Obama isn’t the first politician to invoke change, and he won’t be the last. You want specifics go to Obama’s and Hillary’s websites. Both are bursting with specifics; specifics that drastically CHANGE our current political path.
Up until now I would have sworn that Hillary’s biggest mistake was not considering what would happen if she didn’t have this primary nailed down by Super Tuesday. Now I’ve ‘changed’ my mind. Her biggest mistake was completely missing the message. And it was a simple message. Change… from Bush, from endless war, from the way we handle healthcare, etc.
So why didn’t she grab it? She had every right. She also had the time, given her lengthy front-runner status.
And then when Obama takes the message she carelessly disregarded, what does she do? Why she mocks change and she mocks the voters who want change. (The clouds will part speech was particularly insulting.)
This nomination was Hillary’s to lose, and she’s done so… spectacularly.
Dominique you can start by calling your state represenative and ask them to follow the state’s constitution as it was framed and reject anything that goes beyond those limits and go from there.
P maybe you miss the point all elections are about change from city to county to state and federal The real problem is there hasn’t been any real change in this country since FDR
TT, if you believe what you just wrote then why do you mock change when it comes to Obama. You and Dom go on and on about the word. I was just clarifying it for you.
RealClearPolitics is as balanced as FOX. Kos is hundreds upon thousands of individuals. contributing, isn’t it? I don’t go there very often so I don’t know if there is an Obama slant.
The President will not be able to do enough to make the changes we need.
We need more, better DEMs in the U. S. Congress. Let’s elect Karen Hartley-Nagle so that our state can start to make a difference.
I am sorry, Donna, but your indication that McCain is your second choice tells me that you are not interested enough to have familiarized yourself with what is going on in politics to even bother responding to in most forums.
Your shallow and ugly cynicism is what it is but it is making you appear to be a very insignificant player.
You know what I’ve decided? I’ve decided that Hillary supporters will never accept an answer on change. I’ve cited the mindeset, the policies, basic campaign strategy when it comes to message.
I give up!
Dominique failing that, if they just do not listen, get enough people together say 3000 and I would advise holding a peaceful mock Boston Tea Party outside their offices.
Change is just a word what kind of Change is he offering real change or change for a dollar
Oh you’re so clever. Why don’t you head over to Hillaryis44 or Taylor Marsh where your cleverness will be admired. I’d suggest mydd, but oh my, the tide over there is shifting like the super delegates.
The Dems have their candidate. Are you going to support him or keep tearing him down?
Holding my nose
I don’t really consider myself a Dem, Nancy. Maybe that’s why you can’t grasp that McCain isn’t such a hideous choice for me. I am an Independent who switched to Dem to support Markell. I feel absolutely no obligation to support a candidate that I don’t feel is qualified simply because he has a ‘D’ after his name.
P & C – Maybe Hillary supporters are hyperfocused on the word CHANGE because that’s all we really hear from Obama. That and how he believes a campaign should be run. He’s running a campaign about campaigning. He can’t get more than 4 minutes into a speech without pontificating about how he campaigns vs. how other candidates campaign. Yawn. How is that going to make gas and milk more affordable, Senator Obama? How do your hurt feelings and disdain for the questions you’re being asked make our economy any better? Jesus, people, pay attention.
I’ll bet if you took his website info and put it side by side with Clinton’s website info, there wouldn’t be much of a difference. So, what is it about him that makes you believe things would turn out any differently with him at the helm? From where I’m sitting, he doesn’t have the experience to know where to begin when he gets there. It would be like having a high school history teacher step in and teach a class at Harvard.
What is it about Hillary that makes you all so paranoid about every word she says and everything she does? Why are you all so critical of her every move? I have never seen this kind of vitriol in a presidential primary and I’ve been watching them very closely for the past 20+ years. Why do you think that is? If it’s not about the fact that she’s a woman, what is it that she has done to deserve this kind of anger and resentment from their own effing party? Is it because they’ve been too supportive of the party? Is it because they’ve raised too much money for the DNC and Dem candidates? Is it because they were in office for 8 years and took no more than a few weeks vacation each year? Is it because Bill managed to get things done, even with a Republican majority in congress? What was it? What was their big freaking sin that has caused a level of anger and nastiness that one would expect from Republicans???
RealClearPolitics has articles from everything from Fox to the NYT. It is as balanced a site as you will find. The DK, on the other hand, is so pro-Obama that most of its Hillary supporters have ‘gone on strike’ and started to post at more reasonable sites. If you want a glimpse of why so many Clinton supporters are turned off by the Obama campaign, just read a few of the posts and comments on DK. You’d have to take off your Hillary-hatin’ hat and try to be really objective, tho, otherwise it would be an exercise in futility. HuffPo isn’t quite as bad, but it’s pretty rough over there, too.
Ok folks a wake up call the folks in the Dem party are bragging about the huge turnout during the primary season that somehow this will help the party come November.
WRONG the largest turnout for the DEM’s was in the primarys of 1972 and do we all remember who the pick was that year yes non other than George McGovern the winner of one state , NIXON took the rest.
Dom your last post sums it up well WHY DO THE HATE HER SO MUCH?
BREAKING NEWS Robert Kennedy Jr says that the press is making too much out of Hillary’s statement about his father. That he didn’t find it offencive at all and it’s just her enemies that are twisting her meaning
P please stop calling them super delegates they are really super party Hacks at least that’s what the Obama’s supporters refered to them when they thought that they may go for Hillary
What was their big freaking sin that has caused a level of anger and nastiness that one would expect from Republicans???
Basically treating their Dem opponents as if they were Republicans. You certainly can’t fault us for pushing back on the cynical disrespect the Clintons showed to Obama and to his voters starting around the South Carolina primary.
Which is the fault line. Previous to that Dems were pretty giddy of the embarrassment of riches this season gave us for candidates. And when Super Tuesday failed to wrap it up for the Clintons and they started making excuses that started dissing segments of the Dem voter pool, that was likely when the line started deepening and becoming a permanent feature of the landscape.
But let’s not make the mistake of thinking that either Dominique or TT are even interested in having their questions answered or engaged with. I provided a few posts here trying to engage with some of the questions and points made and they were ignored in favor of trying to read those posts for accusations that were not there.
This business of asking your interlocutors to stand and deliver on why they think this candidate is so special is becoming something of a stale performance. The bottomline is that there is nothing that anyone can say to you that you would have the grace to begin to try to understand much less try to honestly engage with. I think it fair to say that it is not material to anyone here if you agree with any of us, but just inserting the shtick of “Explain to me!” when you have no intention of even giving a damn that someone even tries that explanation (much less what the content of that explanation is) is just dishonest.
And, since you are so experienced in watching campaigns — I think that if you come to grips with the real differences in the Obama and HRC campaigns AND why HRC is losing a race that for almost two years was in the bag for her, you’d be well on your way to understanding the kind of change that folks are interested in seeing if he can deliver on.
“*Obama has as much trouble with numbers as he has with maps. Last March, on the anniversary of the Bloody Sunday march in Selma, Alabama, he claimed his parents united as a direct result of the civil rights movement:
“There was something stirring across the country because of what happened in Selma, Alabama, because some folks are willing to march across a bridge. So they got together and Barack Obama Jr. was born.”
Obama was born in 1961. The Selma march took place in 1965. His spokesman, Bill Burton, later explained that Obama was “speaking metaphorically about the civil rights movement as a whole.”
*Earlier this month in Cape Girardeau, Missouri, Obama showed off his knowledge of the war in Afghanistan by honing in on a lack of translators: “We only have a certain number of them and if they are all in Iraq, then it’s harder for us to use them in Afghanistan.” The real reason it’s “harder for us to use them” in Afghanistan: Iraqis speak Arabic or Kurdish. The Afghanis speak Pashto, Farsi, or other non-Arabic languages.
*Over the weekend in Oregon, Obama pleaded ignorance of the decades-old, multi-billion-dollar massive Hanford nuclear waste clean-up:
“Here’s something that you will rarely hear from a politician, and that is that I’m not familiar with the Hanford, uuuuhh, site, so I don’t know exactly what’s going on there. (Applause.) Now, having said that, I promise you I’ll learn about it by the time I leave here on the ride back to the airport.”
I assume on that ride, a staffer reminded him that he’s voted on at least one defense authorization bill that addressed the “costs, schedules, and technical issues” dealing with the nation’s most contaminated nuclear waste site.
*Last March, the Chicago Tribune reported this little-noticed nugget about a fake autobiographical detail in Obama’s “Dreams from My Father:”
“Then, there’s the copy of Life magazine that Obama presents as his racial awakening at age 9. In it, he wrote, was an article and two accompanying photographs of an African-American man physically and mentally scarred by his efforts to lighten his skin. In fact, the Life article and the photographs don’t exist, say the magazine’s own historians.”
* And in perhaps the most seriously troubling set of gaffes of them all, Obama told a Portland crowd over the weekend that Iran doesn’t “pose a serious threat to us”–cluelessly arguing that “tiny countries” with small defense budgets can’t do us harm– and then promptly flip-flopped the next day, claiming, “I’ve made it clear for years that the threat from Iran is grave.”
Barack Obama–promoted by the Left and the media as an all-knowing, articulate, transcendent Messiah–is a walking, talking gaffe machine. How many more passes does he get? How many more can we afford?” MM
I remember clearly the day I lost respect for Hillary Clinton. It was the first time she endorsed John McCain. I honestly couldn’t believe she’d do such a thing. To me she crossed a line. And she kept doing it.
But the truth is that Obama and his supporters had nothing to do with Hillary’s present situation. She imploded all by herself. No body put the words about sniper fire, “white” americans, or RFK’s assignation in her mouth. Those little gaffes are her’s and her’s alone.
Also, I’ve never referred to SD’s as party hacks. Go back and check. Do I like the Dem primary system? No. But you can’t change it now.
Cassandra –
I’m sorry. I guess I mistook your effort to ‘engage’ with me for a list of reasons you don’t think any of Hillary’s experience is legitimate. I’m also sorry that my desire for more than grandiose promises of change from a candidate comes across as a lack of grace or understanding. This may come as a bit of a shock to you, but I’m not trying to be combative. I am simply trying to understand your vision of our government if Obama is elected. Is it wrong to ask what you think will change and how he will change it? Are we, as voters, not allowed to ask questions and/or be skeptical?
FTR, I respect Obama supporters (the ones who can demonstrate that they have basic manners, that is). I don’t understand what they see in him, but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect their opinion. It’s kind of the same thing as the abortion issue for me – I’m pro-choice, but I understand the anti-choice POV. I don’t agree with it and I sure as shit don’t think it should determine the decisions I make, but I respect the opinion.
I absolutely see the difference between the two campaigns. I see that Obama has run a masterful campaign and Hillary has not (to say the least). I will say, however, that the constant chatter about how she was the front-runner or she felt that she was inevitable is simply nonsense. That was a media fabrication. Sadly, no woman in this country could be considered a frontrunner in a presidential primary two years ahead of time, regardless of her name. Period.
As far as the race changing in SC, you’re absolutely right; however, Hillary’s camp didn’t change their tone. It was Obama’s camp that decided to pursue a race-baiting tactic replete with instructions to their surrogates to essentially milk comment that could be deemed racist. The minute they made it about race, Obama’s numbers with AA’s and uber-liberals skyrocketed and the rest is history. Team Obama successfully brandished the ‘first black president’ and his wife as racists. Talk about doing anything to win.
I guess I’m just one of those people who needs something more substantial, more tangible, than what I hear from Obama. I don’t get wrapped up in sniper fire or bitter/cling or RFK or flag pins. I form my opinion based on which candidate I think has the best ability to handle the job. I need only listen to the two of them speak off the cuff to see which one has the better grasp of the issues faced by our country and the global community and the stronger ability to move us all forward in the right direction. Based on that, it isn’t a huge leap for me to believe that she would be the better president.
We could go back and forth on this until the cows come home, but it really doesn’t matter, does it? I will not change your mind and you will not change mine. Obama will get the nomination. Hillary will go back to the senate. I would ask you, however, to think about what your attitude would be if every single time you turned on the news or visited a blog you heard attacks against your candidate and denigration of her supporters (poor, uneducated, ‘bubba’, etc.) intermingled with glowing praise for her opponent, regardless of any gaffes he may commit. Every. Single. Time. Remember what it used to feel like when you heard clips of Fox News reports raving about Bush in 2004? Remember how you would scream at the tv? Well, that’s pretty much how it feels to be a Hillary supporter right now. Don’t you think you’d be a little cranky after awhile?
That makes “pledged delegate” a joke. That is why the campaign should pick their own delegates. Clinton won California and should get her delegates. Anything else is just one more Democrat party finger in the air in the face of democracy.
Don’t count millions of voters even though your own rules say give them half of the delegates.
Allow the pledged delegates, elected by the voters to vote for a particular candidate, to switch for no reason other than they think someone else may win.
Give a ten delegate advantage for a nearly quarter million vote victory in PA while giving the other candidate a 13 delegate advantage for a 13,000 vote advantage in IA.
Give Guam almost an equal delegation to SD.
Have 40% of the number to win be automatic delegates.
Change the required number for victory in violation of the rules.
Please don’t tell me the Democrat Party is Democratic.
Cassandra will you any other Obama supporters explaine to me how stating that Jessie Jackson had won the SC primary in the past ( a true fact by the way) was playing the Race card as Bill Clinton was accused of. And also I would like you to do it in a way that doesn’t smear Reverend Jackson
Dom lets see if they can answer this one
Donna, one of these days it would be great if you would go into what happened between you and the DE DEM party hacks to where you left it for the Independents. I heard that you and Daniello had a knock down drag out.
You were a D before you were an I and now you are a D again?
A vote against McCain has nothing to do with party loyalty. That it a typical Marshall cheap shot short cut to get out of addressing the issue.
The issue is whether or not you think, along with 80% of America, that this country is heading in the wrong direction. Do you not understand what Bushco has been up to? Do you not understand that McCain’s campaign embodies Bushco?
Don’t know if you noticed, but up until South Carolina the Obama campaign was going out of its way to play down Obama’s race. In fact, up until SC the question surrounding Obama was: Is he black enough?
The comaprison to Jesse Jackson, IMPO, was unfair because it minimized the candidate that Obama is. Jesse never stood a chance of winning the nomination.
As far as playing the race card… why is it Obama’s fault when the Clintons say something stupid? Why is it okay for Hillary to go after Obama on Rev. Wright (“I would have left that church”) and Ayres? Why is that okay? Oh, I know what you said at the time… She’s doing him a favor, she’s toughening him up.
The big thing your missing is that Obama supporters didn’t need to be told how to react to all of Hillary’s gaffes. They just reacted to what they heard coming out of her mouth. Stop blaming Obama and his supporters for your candidates missteps. Hillary has run a sloppy campaign. She took way to much for granted. Who the hell told her to ignore the caucus states? Idiots!
And I’m so over her ‘everybody is picking on me’ meme. Geez, she’s been saying this forever. Comparing her candidacy to womens’ sufferage, slavery, etc. It’s just so over the top.
So now here’s a question for HRC supporters? What mistakes did your candidate make in this campaign? And are they really all Obama’s fault?
Pandora – You’re doing the exact same thing; blaming Clinton for Obama’s missteps. She didn’t comment about Rev. Wright until she was asked directly about it. Same thing with the whole ‘is he a Muslim’ question. She didn’t ask it, but somehow she was blamed for not defending him more vigorously. Is it her responsibility to sugarcoat things for Obama or bail him out of a jam? Is that really what you think?
HRC has made plenty of mistakes. First, she hired Mark Penn. Then she allowed him to suggest that Obama was a drug dealer. Next she didn’t properly plan or execute a strong grassroots/internet effort. Finally, she sat back and allowed the Obama camp to label her, her husband and her closest associates racists – she was swiftboated by her own party. She should have stood in front of the cameras and shamed them for twisting words for political advantage. Instead, she took the Kerry route of avoidance and will lose the nomination because of it. I don’t blame Obama for her weak campaign, but you guys would have to be blind to not see that the Obama camp was responsible for bringing race into the campaign. He initially downplayed his race, but they changed their strategy after NH. Don’t you remember Tim Russert holding up the 4-page memo to the surrogates on how to play the race card?
Nancy – Was that a joke? I’ve never even met John Daniello. I’ve already established that I am embarassingly uneducated in terms of local politics; that’s why I’m doing that series on DWA. My decision to switch from D to I came when the D’s got a majority in congress and NOTHING changed. And, to add insult to injury, they took impeachment off the table. It became obvious to me that the party is weak and spineless (the 2004 election should have clued me in to that). Who cares what their platform is if they don’t have the balls to fight for what they believe in?
I wasn’t blaming her for Obama’s problems. But to act like everything that has happened to her campaign was Obama’s fault and out of her control is so unfair.
Her surrogates suck. Why was she the one always out front making the attacks? Was it to show how strong she was? I hate quoting polls, but all the exit polls showed that most of the electorate viewed her campaign to be more negative than Obama’s. Fair or not, that was the perception. A perception she obviously was okay with since she did nothing to correct it. And it isn’t Obama’s responsibility to dig her out of the hole, any more than it was her’s to help him. We will have to disagree about the race issue… since I don’t remember having to be told to be outraged by Bill Clinton’s too cute by far comments.
Sorry that I am so late to this party. Looks like it was fun.
TT, the issue with Bill Clinton’s statement was that it was used as a way to denigrate a worthy competitor. To write it off because they always vote for the black guy, is insulting and a way to bring race into the debate. I think that Bill and Hillary thought that they could actually win if they brought race into that debate.
David, you don’t get a say, so stay out of it. Don’t you have a gay wedding to disrupt?
Which attacks did she make? I’m not saying she didn’t make any, but I don’t remember anything off the top of my head?
As far as the exit polling is concerned, are you really surprised that people thought she ran a more negative campaign? Don’t you think the media parsing every single word she and her surrogates speak while heaping praise on Obama and forgiving/minimizing his every gaffe may have played into that a bit? Again, I’m not saying that she didn’t go negative, but there’s no denying he had a lot of help from the media and the blogosphere.
LG – Umm, AA’s have proven that they will vote for the black guy. When a candidate is capturing 92% of the black vote, he’s hardly being judged by the content of his character. I think Bill’s comments were cringe-worthy because they were made in response to a question that had nothing to do with the point he was making; however, that doesn’t make his point any less valid.
I think that you folks should look into a mirrow and ask yourselves what are my true feelings about Jessy Jackson because the answers I received here leaves me with the impression that you believe that Jessie is some how below the standing of Mr. Obama.
LG Denigrate a worthy opponate indicates to me that the REV. Jackson is not worthy when compared to Mr. Obama
Oh, give me a break! Jesse Jackson is NOT in the same league as Obama. Not even close.
And I don’t feel the least bit guilty for pointing out the obvious. That’s like comparing Hillary’s experience to Angelina Jolie. Good humanitarian, but hardly in the same league.
And as far as Obama getting press pass? How long did the Rev Wright story run (the 1st time out) compared to the sniper fire gaffe?
Before Ohio and Texas Hillary announced her new kitchen sink strategy. Remember the “shame on you, Barack Obama” speech. I didn’t like her tactics, but they were political and therefore fair game. But it wasn’t Obama’s fault that her strategy didn’t work.
And back to SC… Up until then Obama wasn’t winning the black vote.
thats because he only ran in white states
Messiah?
You’re a scared fucking idiot with no plausible retort to the Obama groundswell.
Why don’t you just say: “Obama has cooties!”
It’s just about the same mentality – fucking 3rd grade, only with a better vocabulary.
Keep it to policy and ability, not some bullshit transcendental, I-have-no-way-to-prove-otherwise tripe.
If HRC didn’t resort to the politics that Liberals, Progressives, Dems, et al, derided against for the past 35 years, then maybe she and her supporters wouldn’t be in the situation they are in right now.
Fuck all!
Black voters have never been known to support a qualified white candidate.
😉
Yup-yup.
Dom you are so right after NH Obama’s folks played the race card look how they twisted Bill Clinton’s fairy tale remark Bill was talking about Obama’s stand on Iraq and they stated that he was calling Obama run for Presidrnt a fairy tail the media ran with this false race card the only person I heard to get it stright was Mark Abrams who corrected a few of his guest.
Remember the night of the NH primary Matthews chalked her win to white’s telling pollesters that they would vote for a black but vote white in the booth.This was the first public mention of race in this race
Now this thing with Jessy the reason the supporters were so upset that they know a large group of folks hold him and Al Sharpton in contemp and they were responding not only to those folks fears but to their own hidden bias toward these two Gentelman
DAVID a very good point on delegate distrubition
that the constant chatter about how she was the front-runner or she felt that she was inevitable is simply nonsense
No. The chart up top doesn’t capture it, but scroll down to the end to see Presidential 08 polling done as far back as 2004. And note who had the commanding lead through about the end of 07. That is where the front-runner stuff comes from. Besides, Penn’s vaunted PowerPoint presentation on why HRC should run pretty much rested on the idea that she was winning already. The media treated her as the frontrunner for a long time (that CNN article was from 2005 and the easiest one I could grab without paying the archive fees, but goggle will show you how much of a front runner she was as far back as 2005), AND her campaign strategy decided to largely skip engaging with her rivals for the nomination to right to criticism of BushCo. That strategy also meant she leapfrogged (tried to) over much of the Dem base. That left her vulnerable for accounting for her Iraq war vote.
think about what your attitude would be if every single time you turned on the news or visited a blog you heard attacks against your candidate and denigration of her supporters
Please. I was a Howard Dean supporter back in 04 and the litany of crap unloaded in his direction and the direction of his supporters was unreal. It still is — especially from Beglala and Carville. But the media does what it does because we let them get away with it. In the meantime, I still felt strongly about getting Bush out and so standing in a corner calling attention to myself for not participating was not going to achieve that goal. (And this Gore 2000 supporter also had to live through the amazingly slanted media coverage he suffered through. Not fair, but unless enough people turn the crap off they don’t change)
Cassandra I also liked Dean back then but Matthews and MSNBC and others helped to sink him with the consent running of the speech after the Iowa caucas juat a constance loop of his shouting like a mad man or so it seemed when Andra Mitchell tried to bring the truth of his preformance to light as she was in the room told matthews that the croud was so loud that he had to yell in order to be heard Matthews ingored her and just kept playing the loop and making fun of Dean and so a good man was destroyed by the MSM
So we should all stop watching MSNBC for a month
I think that Bill and Hillary thought that they could actually win if they brought race into that debate.
Actually, LG, I would say that the Clintons thought that they could get away with dismissing Obama and his supporters using racially-charged language. The Clinton campaign was on its way to largely ceding SC to Obama (just going to target certain areas) when Bill interceded and said NO. I think that he felt that he had worked hard to get some support and respect in the African American community and could appeal to the community. It didn’t work and he was made — labeling either Obama’s candidacy or his Iraq stance a fairy tale was an argument out of frustration, but certainly was an argument that indicated that at least all of the Obama supporters are somehow deluded. This remark got the very important SC superdelegate Rep. Jim Clyburn to threaten to no longer be undeclared. And the Clintons knew immediately (before the Campaign Memo was written) they had a problem because Bill spent the next day or two on black radio programs (including Al F’ing Sharpton) trying to explain himself.
When they need the racial argument, it is the Clintons who have brought it up at every turn — dismissing black voters in SC (this was Bill, not HRC), telling the world that brown people won’t vote for a Black man (CA and TX), that “hard-working white people” won’t vote for a Black man (OH, PA, WVA, KY). If the Clintons would stop bringing up the racial crap, Obama or his surrogates wouldn’t have anything to react to. The surrogates didn’t make up the stuff the Clintons have said.
Last point, the racial stuff is not Swift Boating, largely because what the Clintons do say this stuff. The play afterwards is less about the race card than it is about how Old School these two really are — still trying to micromanage identity politics groups.
But, hey, we’re all probably OK with the HRC gender card, yes?
I heard it from a source close to you Donna. Very close. It might even have been written in a blog post somewhere. I am sorry, but the story was so vivid I can’t shake it.
Cassandra geat real it was the Obama supporters who brought up the race card in SC by distorting Bill’s Fairy tale remark
Bundy 1961 to 1965 4 years a mistake or misstatement by Obama just like a sniper story
Cassandra – are you really comparing the media’s treatment of Howard Dean to their treatment of HRC? Really?
I’ll admit, the media played the scream into the ground, but it’s NOTHING compared to the personal swipes they’ve taken at HRC.
As far as Clyburn is concerned, there’s a huge difference between being undeclared and undecided. I don’t believe for a second that he was ever undecided. He was yet another Obama supporter in sheep’s clothing – appearing on tv at every opportunity to take pot shots at the Clintons while feigning respect for them. Kind of like Donna Brazile. The average HRC supporter could see right through that slimy bullshit all along.
Again, it makes no difference at this point. The writing is on the wall. He will be the nominee. Why do you guys still feel compelled to stomp all over her? What does it matter anymore? Why can’t you just look forward? This will all be over with in a couple of weeks. Why can’t the Obama camp show a little bit of maturity and grace and stop fabricating a conspiratorial plot out of every single word that comes out of her mouth?
The party is divided. The Obama supporters will, like everything else, blame Clinton for it (which, of course, is ridiculous does absolutely nothing to bring the two sides together). This election has left me completely disenchanted with the party and the system.
I have not felt this level of resentment since the 2000 election and I hardly think I’m alone. I don’t see how it will get better when he speaks of unity while his camp is completely overblowing her comments about RFK. They even reportedly distributed text of KO’s Special Comment to the press. Yeah, we’re all going to come together in the end.
There is a big difference between a candidate and their supporters. Supporters/bloggers do not speak for the candidate.
And the resentment you feel from certain Obama supporters is equally matched by certain Clinton supporters.
You are correct; however, the campaign tactics – even if they’re not conceived by the candidate – are a representation of the candidate’s character.
Has HRC’s campaign been a complete clusterfuck at times? Yes. However, Obama’s campaign has been one of the most hideous examples of underhanded character assassination in modern political history. That shit comes straight from the top and it’s completely unforgivable as far as I’m concerned.
Obama’s campaign has been one of the most hideous examples of underhanded character assassination in modern political history
If you believe this you simply have not been paying attention. Hillary had a mountain of negatives before the campaign began. Obama didn’t put them there.
It was Hillary’s own behavior that turned friendly bloggers against her. Go check the lefty blogs from late last year. Not so long ago they were all saying how lucky we were to have so many great candidates, and how any of them would be a good choice, including Hillary.
Then Edwards dropped out, and Hillary started up her campaign, with “A Christian – as far as I know…” and jumping on the Rev Wright wagon, and “3 AM…” . And she went downhill from there.
but it’s NOTHING compared to the personal swipes they’ve taken at HRC.
Um, no.
From Dean’s Winter Meeting speech through the end of his run much of the media treatment of him was sneering and taunting — who is that little man with all of those kids? On the internet. And what’s up with that bat anyway? Dean consistently and undiplomatically criticized GWB AND all of the Dems who enabled him, which got him a non-stop ration of crap from repubs (who insisted that he was unpatriotic, traitorous, dangerous, unhinged — a thing that his fellow dems did not step up to push back on) and from the Dems who fed the daily narrative of this ultra-liberal from Vermont (never mind that Dean was a card carrying member of the DLC with a pretty high legislative rating from the NRA) who would be the death of the Democratic party. Al From (from the DLC) was just bloody everywhere making up stuff about Dean (and I heard From mostly on the BBC). Bill Clinton publicly warned Deaniacs that it was ok to fall in love as long as you fall in line when a real nominee is picked. Maureen Dowd saw fit to criticize Dr. (Mrs.) Dean for staying in VT to care for her patients instead of campaigning with her husband, a position which didn’t seem to bother the OG feminist camp not one whit. Other columnists went to town on Dr. (Mrs.) Dean when she started talking about trying to continue to practice medicine (she was talking about volunteering in a clinic or something) for daring to think about doing work other than the ceremonial First Lady thing. The scream and its nonstop playing to try to make Dean look completely unhinged was pretty much the icing on the cake. The media grudgingly took Howard seriously for maybe the 4thQ of 2003 when he had all of the money and was polling really well.
There’s more to this bill of particulars, but the fact that I can roll this out from memory (4 years later) ought to tell you that I certainly do understand feeling that your candidate has been misused by the media. (Which Howard certainly was, but for all of the upfront successes he could not translate that energy to a voting booth) However, as anon points out, HRC started with (and still has) some of the highest negatives in the business, so it also doesn’t take very much for her media coverage to look that bad.
there’s a huge difference between being undeclared and undecided.
Which would be why I did write undeclared. Clyburn staying undeclared this late in the game is a small win for the Clintons. And being undeclared during the SC primary meant that he provided no political help to wither candidate. It would not surprise me if Clyburn finally came out for HRC, but Donna Brazile strikes me (the extremely few times I’ve seen her on TV) as already taken her decision for Obama.
Cassandra I could not have summed it up better myself and thanks for reminding me about the attacks on Ms Dean
…and for proving once and for all that Maureen Dowd is, in fact, a misogynist.
BTW, I hear the phrase ‘high negatives’ bandied about quite a bit in discussions about HRC. I’m curious about when this phrase was coined and by whom as I don’t think I’ve ever heard it used to describe anyone but HRC (with others it’s referred to as ‘low approval ratings’, which may be a matter of semantics, but reminds me a lot of the republican tendency to change the name of something to make it seem more awful – ‘death tax’, ‘partial-birth abortion’, etc).
What, exactly, was her ‘high-negative’ rating? Does anyone know? If not, it’s very likely a republican buzzword that Obama was all-too-willing to pick up the ball and run with. BTW, it’s curious to me that she is always spoken of in terms of having high negatives AND being the frontrunner. If you think about it, the fact that she is behind him by the very thinnest of margins in spite of her allegedly ‘high negatives’ speaks volumes about her strength as a candidate.
Sorry, but I really think Dems have made a grave mistake in, once again, backing the weaker candidate.
Lest you continue to truly believe that Obama is above misrepresenting the truth (to put it nicely)…
http://www.newsweek.com/id/138519
He isn’t quite as squeaky clean as he paints himself as being.
Donna, you want K.O. to respect a sitting senator yet you feel free to denegrate Clyburn? Is your despicable contention to be extrapolated to ‘every black Clinton supporter is a lying fuck?
BTW, Brazille has been explicitly for Obama all along.
Truthfully, the more the Clinton and her supporter like yourself use desparate, unseemly tactics the more decent-minded followers jumped ship.
And don’t throw out the ‘Clintons are meekly going away now so stop yakking’ meme. You failed to read the quote above where her big money people are trying to extort a VP slot by threat of pulling their cash out of the party.
The party needs to pull together soon but Clinton’s fading power is being used to taint us with her ‘slime’ to use your delightful term.
You falsely claim Obama empolying the most “underhanded character assassination in modern political history. That shit comes straight from the top” So, you know this. How? Clinton’s website? Your ‘gut’?
The RFK assassination tactic/ insult is her shame, no one is plying this ‘from the top’.
Her assassination fixation is being condemned universally. I applaud K.O. for his comment just as I did when he slammed Bush for the first time and helped turn the country from its apathetic coma to start to take the GOP out power.
~~~~~
TT, you say media “helped to sink [Dean] with the consent running of the speech after the Iowa caucas juat a constance loop ” but don’t agree that the week of non-stop Wright looping didn’t effect Obama support across the country?
The media is pro-GOP. Period.
Sorry Nancy, but in the world of Hillary supporters issues like Rev. Wright, flag pins, Ayres and bitter comments are simply viewed as vetting a candidate. On the other hand, sniper fire, gas tax holiday, RFK statement, and criticism over endorsing McCain are attacks.
And you know what’s funny? The camp that evoked such sayings as “If you can’t stand the heat…”, “throwing the kitchen sink”, and “Obama has a glass jaw” is the camp that is constantly whining when their candidate is held accountable for words that come out of her mouth. They are always blaming someone else for Hillary’s weakness.
I keep hearing how HRC is the stronger candidate. Really? If that were true she wouldn’t be in her current position. And, BTW, dealing with the MSM is part of the process. She lost her message, found her message, changed her message. She was ill-served by her advisors who chose to ignore her high negatives (or maybe I should say high unfavorability since high negatives has now be added to the list of HRC attack words) instead of dealing with the fact that – for whatever reason – a LOT of people started out this political season swearing they would NEVER vote for Hillary. A totally unfair viewpoint, IMO, but, unfair or not, it was a reality… and HRC and staff never dealt with it.
Did Obama benefit from those sentiments? Of course. But that’s not the issue, or it shouldn’t have been if the HRC camp had done their job.
Ladies please let’s not turn this into democlypse now. If the dems want to be the last best hope for this country they need to come together now.
Ladies on the RFK issue the only opinion that counts is Robert Kennedy JR’s statement on the subject after all she was talking about his father. All the rest is just some more Hillary bashing.
How can any of you claim to be more offended than his son?
Brian, AGreed. Chicago Dyke of the Corrente blog posted this today:
reasons.
-I’ve lost friends over this horserace, and that makes me sad and angry. I don’t want to lose any more.
-My motto in politics: Everyone fights; no one quits. If you do, I’ll shoot you myself. Heh, OK, that’s not really my motto, but I’m getting more and more frustrated with people who want to “fight” over things that don’t make any difference. I believe that this horserace crap has really hurt the blogosphere, and taken away from the power we were “growing.” Again, that makes me sad and frustrated.
-On a similar note, I think it’s a Sign, that this blog has finally made the cut, and gotten the attention of Mrs. $175m, 6 years of free PR, married to the most popular Dem alive, former front runner. Doesn’t that tell you something, that now she’s finally reached out to us all? It tells me: desperation. Believe me, some folks couldn’t be bothered with us, back when it could’ve made a difference. This blog was Toxic, and I was proud of that, in the way that contempt for people who won’t listen to reason makes one proud.
-This isn’t about me. It’s about you, and Lambert, and the rest of the fellows. And you. HRC, just like BHO, isn’t going to be there for us all When It Matters. Not that she doesn’t care (I don’t think he does), indeed, I perceive underneath it all a caring, liberal woman of great moment. If she could be Queen of the World, a lot of shit I don’t like would get changed, stat. But that’s not going to happen. More importantly, there’s literally nothing she, or anyone, can do to fix the Shit That’s Coming. And it’s coming. That is really what I’m trying to hammer home here. Is your support for HRC all these long and painful months going to put gas in your tank, get you a job, or give you health care? No. But here’s the thing, the original thing that made me fall in love with the blogosphere in the first place:
We can help each other. I’ll talk about that more, in future posts. Because again, It’s Time.
-I’m very proud of HRC not giving up. Let me stress that. Fuck the SCLM, you Go Grrl! Don’t quit. I’m just trying to speak of the future, and what comes after. You blew it with your war vote, and you should’ve run in 04, when that choice could’ve helped you. Just sayin.
-Rather than get angry, as I woke up and headed towards, let me back down and remind everyone: this year is the year to truly and significantly Elect More and Better Democrats. Really, our chances are pretty good. Also, BHO isn’t going to be able to control his hoardes. They are way more liberal and progressive than he is, and it’ll be funny/sad/amusing to see him come back to them, hat in hand, when his moderate and Republican and warmonger and UChicago friends drop him like a hot plate. Assuming he can beat McStain. Which I’m not at all sure he can.
-Corrente means a lot to me. Can you all, esp you newer people, please try a little harder, in terms of quality, diversity, tone and tenor? This is a special place, and I won’t give up on it until I’m dead. I’m showing you all, publically, what Loyalty is all about. I’ll tell you true: I’ve had Offers. From “A List” blogs, from backroom insider types, from People with Power; if I’d been willing to leave/slam publically/detach myself from this place, things could’ve happened for me, things a lot of bloggers want. I didn’t take up any of those offers for a reason, and although that may prove a “stupid” choice, I’m not sorry. I’m going to fight to keep this place the unique, amazing, forward looking, ahead of the curve, honest people’s blog it’s always been. Are you with me?
TT, I have come to believe that you are a GOPerhead concern troll.
Awesome new editing tool, guys!!!!!!
Favorability ratings are different from job approval ratings. It is in the favorability ratings that HRC has had pretty consistently high negatives. these charts graph various candidates’ favorabilty ratings over a period of time. (if you can’t immediately see the charts, scroll down to almost the end of the page). As you can see from this Gallup poll, HRCs favorable/unfavorable ratings are pretty consistently even — and consistent unfavorable ratings in the high 40s (this poll tracks responses back to 2007) is what people refer to as high negatives. As a contract, Guiliani has pretty low negatives in early 2007, but his negatives (unfavorable rating) went consistently up until he left the race.
Favorability questioning starts with a question like this: :…we’d like to get your overall opinion of some people in the news. As I read each name, please say if you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of these people — or if you have never heard of them. How about Hillary Clinton?”” The poll typically will ask several (or more) further questions designed to try to delineate the characteristics of the candidate that might contribute to the favorable of unfavorable assessment. That data is typically in a poll’s crosstabs ( do respondents think the candidate is intelligent, honest, cares about people, etc). I don’t have time this AM to dig up a poll with its crosstabs, but it is in the details that a candidate finds the info that can use to counter those impressions.
Job approval is just that — questions designed to assess how a group of people think a person is doing their job. I can’t find any job approval data for HRC right now (I think it is above 50%), but this is data on GWB’s job performance over time. This chart also just shows the answers to the broad question — there would have been additional questions to probe the intensity and detail of why the respondent answers the way they do.
Nancy you don’t know how wrong you are it appears that when you and some others on this site lack an intelligent answer to a question you respond with the word Troll, I would have thought that you and others would know that it possiable to be a life long Dem and have a different opinion than yours. The problem with folks like you is when confronted with the facts against you guy you close you mind and act as if they have no merit after all wake up he doesn’t walk on water, however I get the feeling that some on this blog thinks he does
And I’ll stick with Robert Kennedy’ Jr’s opinion of the statement any day
So my post on the difference between favorable/unfavorable polling questions (high negatives) and job performance is apparently in moderation. Wish I knew how to not trigger that.
Great post, Pandora. One of the biggest reasons I stayed out of the candidate posts over at dKos was because there was no way I was going to be able to keep track of the various rules for viewing said candidate.
P.S. Also I am more than likely one of the few folks on this site who has never voted for Mike Castle
Nancy I never said the the loop on Wright was not the same as the loop on Dean look the MSM has this thing then tend to build a person up and then quickly turn an attempt to tear him down.Just look at their track record
TT – Nancy is famous for putting words in others’ mouths and exagerrating/distorting others’ comments.
Take, for instance:
‘Donna, you want K.O. to respect a sitting senator yet you feel free to denegrate Clyburn?’
That’s like comparing apples to cows. He viciously attacked her; I accused Clyburn of claiming to be undecided when he clearly wasn’t.
‘Is your despicable contention to be extrapolated to ‘every black Clinton supporter is a lying fuck?’
Nancy taking a crazy leap and implying I’m a racist…again. Shocker.
‘BTW, Brazille has been explicitly for Obama all along.’
Wrong. Check your facts, sister. She was just called out on it by Gloria Borger on CNN the night of the WV primaries.
‘…her big money people are trying to extort a VP slot…’
Extort? Really? Again with the drama. First she’s trying to ‘steal the election’, now she’s trying to ‘extort’ a VP spot. I can’t imagine why she would accept a VP spot at this point. Why would she align herself with a weaker candidate? Look what happened to Edwards. Before you all freak out – YES, he was a better campaigner early on (she’s definitely been stronger than him in recent weeks) , but he is definitely a weaker GE candidate – c’mon, P, I know you know the difference.
‘”That shit comes straight from the top” So, you know this. How? Clinton’s website? Your ‘gut’?’
Well, there was the memo on how to play the race card that he was confronted with in the debate. Or did you forget about that?
To be honest, I barely glanced at HRC’s website (except to make donations). I know what I need to know about her. Same with him (although, I think there’s still a lot we don’t know). I know this makes your head want to explode, but my ‘gut feeling’ plays a big role in who I will vote for. I think that’s pretty normal.
TT – I see variations of the ‘you must be a GOP troll’ line quite frequently on other blogs. I think it’s because Obama supporters cannot possibly fathom that other Democrats don’t see the heavenly light shining on him like they do. I guess the 17M+ votes she’s gotten hasn’t clued them in that he is not the be-all, end-all for all of us.
I don;t have the heart to keep kicking you while you are down. So here is another view
Dom & TT,
Why do you both INSIST that an Obama supporter MUST hate HRC…. MUST bash her & her followers….. MUST be closed minded…… MUST NOT see her numbers….. MUST be out to get YOU…..
I have said this before….it is NOT about you, it is NOT about HRC…… it is about choosing a candidate that speaks to US.
HRC speaks to YOU. GREAT.
Let’s agree to disagree. I respect your choice, please RESPECT mine….
Stop making generalities about “Obama supporters”…..
and only 1 can win….no matter how much bitching we all do…..
FTR, Jason, I have stated more than once that, while I believe she is the stronger candidate – by far – in a general election and would be the better president, I want her to drop out of this race. Even if she could pull out a win based on popular vote, she would always be branded as having ‘stolen the election’ by hysterical Obama supporters. Frankly, I don’t have the energy to endure that level of crazy for another five months, let alone 4-8 years. My issue at this point is more about what I perceive to be extremely biased coverage of one candidate over another. I am confident that you would feel the same way if the tables were turned. That’s not to say that Obama has not felt heat a few times during the campaign, but, let’s be honest, it never lasted more than a couple of days because he had the media acting as his apologists all along.
I think that once tempers have cooled and this election is far behind us, it will be clear to most that HRC was held to a much higher standard than any other candidate. Books will be written about it and it will be covered as one of the brightest and darkest periods of feminist movement in womens’ history classes.
I would ask all of you uber-liberals to take HRC out of the equation and put any other woman in her place. Would you be ok with the language that is being used about her? Would you be ok with members of the media calling her a bitch (Alex whatshisname on CNN did it last week) or a witch (Chris Matthews) or shrill or a nutcracker REGARDLESS of whether it’s true? That’s simply not done to male candidates. Take John McCain. He is known for an allegedly bad temper, but do they describe him as a dick? Of course not. GWB can’t put a sentence together. Do they call him an idiot? Hardly. Men are clearly given a different level of respect than women and you should be offended by that, not just as liberals, but as human beings.
Stella – I have noticed a troubling trend in the blogosphere of glossing over comments, pulling out specific passages and distorting them. Please show me where anyone insisted that an Obama supporter MUST hate HRC or anything else on your list. In fact here’s a quote of mine from an earlier comment:
‘FTR, I respect Obama supporters (the ones who can demonstrate that they have basic manners, that is). I don’t understand what they see in him, but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect their opinion. It’s kind of the same thing as the abortion issue for me – I’m pro-choice, but I understand the anti-choice POV. I don’t agree with it and I sure as shit don’t think it should determine the decisions I make, but I respect the opinion.’
It’s ironic that you’re asking us to stop making generalizations about Obama supporters when you’re kind of doing the same thing about Clinton supporters.
My previously moderated post re: favorability ratings is upthread.
I think that once tempers have cooled and this election is far behind us, it will be clear to most that HRC was held to a much higher standard than any other candidate.
I do think that there will be an effort to do this (by some career feminist types who will now have a new grudge to air), but one of the things missing from this equation is that much of HRCs coverage is something of an extension of the coverage she and Bill got when they were in the WH. Their WH press relationships were not so hot and by most reports that carried over to her primary race. Add on to that that she is a Clinton and the media already knows how good they can be for ratings. In many ways this is the opposite of the McCain media — he gets alot of very fawning press because he has been working at fawning over them for darn near a decade. Gore v Bush was the same dynamic — the press roundly disliked Gore and did like Bush. BushCo took all of that goodwill and promptly turned the tables on the media — largely trying to intimidate them into the controlled messages that we mostly got the last 7 years.
I think that once tempers have cooled and this election is far behind us, it will be clear to most that HRC was held to a much higher standard than any other candidate.
Such Bullshit.
brightest and darkest periods of feminist movement
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what tripe
this is not about fucking gender
it is about democratically chosen leader for our nation in a primary where she is not winning the popular vote under the rules she endorsed.
feminists who have an honest bone or two will agree.
I would not permit female or male children to be educated under this sadly misconstrued guise.
Folks have you been to an airport gift shop lately I’ve see HRC dolls with legs shaped as nut crackers T shirts that would get you tossed off a southwest flight with her photo and not very flattering I could go on and on I shudder to think just what the reaction woul be if their was a Obama Little Black Sambo doll .
I don;t have the heart to keep kicking you while you are down. So here is another view
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Jason, I think I just read that on Eschaton, no? Just sayin. How hard is it to cite authorship? I am not expecting a link, just a source.
No Dom, I frequent the Eschaton A-lister blog where there are concern trolls infiltrating the comments all the time and I have gotten very good at feeling out the hollow, insipid sound of it. GOP Concern trolls get paid (this is verified, now) to do this stuff. It rather says your blog is important enough to warrant this kind of a monitor. I am quite serious about my read on TT’s tone and am not saying that it is an absolute but it is a fairly good chance.
Ask yourself, who hugs Mrs. Marshall’s views the closest? Hube and TT. HEH!
And in the media? Pat Buchanan and Tucker Carlson etc, Rush, Sean and Michelle Malkin.HOOT!
Otherwise, I am not wasting more time on Donna Marshall on this issue.
Nancy I never stated that an Obama supporter MUST hate HRC I just notice the Bile and Slime directed against her by SOME obama supporters here and on other Blogs. I surly hope by you statements that you arn’t feeling guilty.
I also notice that you seem to love the word Troll it appears that you think it helps your position when you can’t respond to the facts as they are presented. A good way to end a debate NAME CALLING
Truth be told, troll is a general description that is often used on blogs and other online media. It predates this debate and is more of a short-hand for a particular kind of comment or commenter. Whether it would apply to you or Dom is questionable. You stay on-topic and, I think, enhance the debate.
A concern troll is someone that has an agenda other than their stated agenda (think Karl Rove being concerned about Clinton being cheated).
LG thanks for clearing things up a bit however i find the term a bit offencive.( My poblem. ) I do agree that we all should stay on subject and have a healthy exchange of ideas and opinions. I find that when I am in a debate and my foe makes a good point I am willing to conceed and I would expect the same
P 127 comments so far you really picked a good subject
I’ve seen the GOP troll accusations dozens of times on various blogs and they are almost always directed at people commenting in favor of HRC. Why would anyone assume that someone supporting HRC is a GOP troll? Couldn’t the same thing be said about people claiming to be Obama supporters?
Dom, yes. And on the Hillary sites, that is what they are called. Check our blogroll for TaylorMarsh.com. You will see that there is quite an Obama-troll following over there. That is the case at a number of those site. They are also a great place to see where the claims of racism come from.
These are the places that have had the brillo head comments and a huge number of other things that make Obama supporters seem like idiots.
I would challenge you to spend a few hours over there and try to pretend that you are an Obama supporter. It’s tough. Just like it is here for you, probably worse.
The only thing that gets me through the night is the hope that this circular firing squad turns and faces McCain once this is over.
I visited TaylorMarsh and Hillaryis44 exactly one time each. I don’t like that visceral tone regardless of where it’s coming from. That’s why I’ve walked away from HuffPo and DK (though it took me a bit longer). If you want to get a feel for real HRC supporters, check out TalkLeft. They are definitely pro-Hill, but they don’t tolerate viciousness from either side.
I know there are crazies on both sides; however, I have personally experienced aggressiveness from Obama supporters outside of the blogosphere (and my understanding is that many caucus-goers around the country have as well). It’s just gotten so ugly across the board. I don’t know what either side can do to fix it at this point.
LG checked the taylor marsh site and see your point also notice she has a link to your site on her home page
Yes, she has a link, because we are a hot, happening blog!
Nancy I never stated that an Obama supporter MUST hate HRC
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pay attention, dearie, I didn’t write this. Stella did.
dom, if there were an Obama supporter who sounded extremely ‘concerned’ , along with being hollow and insipid I’d pounce in a flash.
Don’t pretend that you haven’t been in the company of the most partisan GOPer strategists, D. You may be dim but you aren’t stupid.
The Clinton’s draw to right wingers is that the DEMs having her on the ticket will bring out their numbers in droves. They have been trying their best to join with Hillbots in that effort.
And please note the difference between troll and concern troll, it is probably in wiki.
Nancy sorry about the mix up
Actually, that is a paid advertisement on Taylormarsh.com. Long story, but I am happy it is there and I can’t wait to be on the same side of the fight as Taylor. Even if we are shooting from different angles, our common target will be McCain in a few weeks.
Hey Dom, I meant to ask you about your support of Markell. Since Markell has been backing Obama longer than most DE pols, why would you support someone that cannot see through all of Obama’s weaknesses?
‘Don’t pretend that you haven’t been in the company of the most partisan GOPer strategists, D.’
What does that even mean? What are you talking about? What kind of a political player do you think I am? First you accuse me of leaving the Democratic party because of a fight with a man I have never met and couldn’t pick out of a lineup, now this. Do you have me confused with someone else or are you simply delusional?
Until this year, I have been a passionate observer of politics (national only, mind you). Because of Mat’s involvement in local politics, I have gotten to know a few of the players and have become somewhat involved with a couple of the campaigns. I have also made campaign donations for the first time ever this year. That’s it, though. Nothing sinister. No back room meetings with party leaders and/or strategists. Sheesh. I wish I weilded that kind of influence or power. I can’t even get my kid to clean his room.
LG – I am surrounded by people (most of whom I respect, admire and love) who support Obama. I don’t agree with them, but I’m not going to change my opinion of them based on their support of a candidate I don’t happen to like. Different strokes for different folks. Hell, I even have pro-life Republican friends.
I knew virtually nothing about Jack Markell prior to this year. In fact, the first time I became aware of him was during the 2006 election when someone rang my doorbell and told me that Matthew had given them permission to put a little ‘I Back Jack’ sign in my yard. Two weeks later, it was replaced by an enormous one. Mat was a big supporter of Jack’s so I would tell him I liked John Carney just to get a rise out of him. He insisted that I meet Jack so I went to a Women for Markell event and was immediately hooked. Apart from the fact that he is incredibly sincere and kind, he’s exceptionally smart and he has great ideas for moving our state forward. Jack could endorse Dick Cheney and it wouldn’t change my opinion of him.
Fair enough.
I know both Jack M and John C and for the life of me I cannot understand why one of them didn’t run against Mike Castle and give us a real chance of capturing that seat.
P.S. would have put one of them in a good position should Joe Biden end up in a cabint position
TT – Don’t count KHN out. She may not have Castle’s name recognition, but she’s great on the issues. I will be having a very affordable fundraiser for her next month. It will be a great opportunity for you to meet her. I hope you (and the rest of the blogger community) can make it.
Go to Huffington Post and read the entire article how MSNBC is pro Obama.
Also the story on X senator Gramm on McCain’s staff failed to mention that he stated after Clinton’s 1992 tax plan would cause a ression or worst. This is the guy who advise mcCain on economics
Umm… isn’t a pro Obama press a good thing?
(I’m now bracing myself for the doom and gloom message of warning)
What ever it just goes to prove Bill’s comments are correct.
Also back in feb J. Alter along with David Shuster called for her to drop out and later Keith and Fineman stated that the Superhacks should take her into a room and elimitate her Keith had to do a I am sorry on that one.
So when Matthews and the gang at MSNBC say no one ever tried or suggested that she get out of the race they are liar’s
I’m sad I arrived to this love-fest so late. Dom, the more and more I listen to you, the more and more I actually find myself agreeing with you. Not about Hillary. She frankly leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. No, I agree with you about Obama.
Talking to young and old people alike, it is easy to see why they blindly embrace Barack Obama. He stands for the kind of change everyone in the world is looking for. What kind of change? Change! Yeah, I hear you, but what is it he is changing? Ummm. Errr. Change!
I am not trying to ridicule Obama’s supporters here, it is just that I would like to hear a little more about what the youthful senator from Chicago believes in. Health Care, Iraq exit-strategy, economic plan? I like to consider myself informed, but the more I think about it, The more I’m not really sure what he has to offer.
I have yet to hear anything from anyone who can give me an inch on what they actually plan to do about the mess facing us. And this is including the local blogosphere too. I think Dom’s clear disdain for Obama has nothing whatsoever to do with the man, it just has to do with the man’s lack of a plan. On the flip side Dom, he isn’t the only one. What will HRC do for us? McCain? Can you answer that?
And to anyone responding to this post, please spare me links to the candidates websites for notes on the issues. Seriously. Like their own candidates give a fair assessment of what can feasibly be implemented from their own plan.
Call It I agree I can’t think of what he means by change because he has yet to spell it out an neither has his supporters. As far as HRC goes she is a bit of a wonk on the subjects that concern me however my feelings toward her rest on my belief that she is a fighter and will get the job done
Dom I been out of touch with the local stuff who is KHN and where can I get info on her so far all I knew was the guy from Lewes was running against Castle
Call IT I remember that when HRC presented her health care plan the Dem’s controled both houses.
And remember Foley in the house and Mitchell in the senate were not going to let this kid from AK tell them what to do.
So if the DEM’s take over both houses will they work with whoever is elected to get CHANGE???
spare me links to the candidates websites for notes on the issues.
So, then, how do you get your information on the candidates and their positions, if you don’t trust them to speak for themselves? CNN??
And for TT — you can get KHN info from her website for starters. Perhaps Call It can point you to something more trustworthy.
Cass the web sites are find just written by their press people I want to hear them spell their plans out in person not just pretty speeches
P>S> like what will obama do if the generals tell him we can’t leave for 4 years???
That is the million dollar question TT. Right now, I am so disenfranchised with both parties.
I have another question that I need answered by all of you intellectuals. If we are going to be the party of change and we are going to reach across the aisle, why can’t we put people around us (candidate advisors) that are from all parts of the political spectrum. Isn’t being informed on issues all about knowing every point of view, not just the view you want to hear? Am I wrong on this? Are these people actually in place?
No the problem is right now everyone on all sides has to join the chior singing OBAMA OBAMA or HILLARY HILLARY and of course MCCAIN MCCAIN . No one will give an inch or admit that the other party may have a point of view.
there for a while on this and other sites if you didn’t agree with the sites favorit you were dismissed or called names
Oh come on cassandra, I wasn’t trying to be snarky, I was trying to be serious. That comment was for people less intelligent than yourself. Do you honestly think that the candidates (or rather, their PR people) don’t fluff the shit out of the “My Issues Page?” That is what I was getting at.
And where do I get my information on the candidates? CNN? Well, actually yes. You have to know what the bullshit is in order to separate it from the truth. Which is why I come here, and to right-wing sites, and to centrist-sites, and to more left-wing sites. You cannot form an opinion if you gobble up everything you want to hear.
Do you go to candidates websites for all of your information?
I have said a variation of the same thing over and over here. If the dim one can’t get it now, it never will. So sad.
So when Matthews and the gang at MSNBC say no one ever tried or suggested that she get out of the race they are liar’s
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Matthews isn’t saying no one did say she should get out. Obviously they have starting with Leahy as the most prominent person, I guess.
I think Mattthews is saying that no one is saying it now and that she should go through the last state primary.
For the record, I heard that Donna Marshall had a huge blowout with DEM party heads and left the party in a huff. This was some time ago before I knew anything about her and it was at the Young DEM kickoff party so, if it wasn’t Daniello, it was someone else, unless, some kid lied to me and why they would I couldn’t imagine. Now that I am being called a liar, I will start to do some digging on the story.
Don’t doubt that they fluff the Issues, but on the other hand, the Issues is the one place where it is all written down and you can go back and hold them accountable for what they claimed was their position. The pundits and reporters are going to provide what they think is the Cliff notes of the candidate’s position along with whatever parsing they will do with what the campaign manager said vs what the surrogate said vs the question the candidate answered that was sorta like the position paper if you looked at it sideways, etc.
While it may be fluff, the candidate’s written exposition on the issues is the only fair thing to hold them accountable to once in office. How can you hold them accountable to Wolf Blitzer’s reaction to some pundit’s characterization of what he heard some guy on the WSJ editorial page say about the candidate’s position? You can hold them accountable for what they say — not what the echo chamber and narrative machine says about them.
Nancy – how does that kind of discourse help? I don’t understand your need to attack people. Hillary supporters have legitimate questions about Obama given that he will likely be given the nomination. What is it that you think we ‘dim ones’ don’t get? Where have you or anyone else – including Obama – explained in specific terms what is going to change?
Call It – Hillary and Obama evidently have similar platforms. The main differences – and they’re big ones – is that she has a far more in-depth knowledge of the issues AND she has far more experience with the ins and outs of Washington.
I look at Washington as a huge, complicated machine that is not easily maneuvered by novices. I think a candidate as green and idealistic as Obama will be chewed up and spit out by the old-school pols in DC. Essentially, he’ll be pwnd. Not only that, but he doesn’t strike me as someone who is particularly passionate about the issues or someone who is willing to fight to get something done. In fact, he’s developed a bit of a reputation for not showing up for the more controversial votes (or voting ‘present’). As I said in a comment on DWA, it doesn’t matter how wonderful your platform is if you don’t have the balls to fight for it.
Another thing, with all this talk about unity and a purple America, Obama’s record shows very few instances where he’s reached across the aisle to work with Republicans. Clinton and McCain have a stronger history in that regard.
Nancy – I did not attend the YDM kick-off party, I have never met a party leader nor have I ever stormed out of any party. I’m just not that kind of girl.
Prior to last week, I knew next to nothing about local politics. All I know now is what’s been posted in my Delaware Politics series on DWA. You’re going to have to trust me on this one. They may have been talking about someone else. It definitely wasn’t me.
Also, Chris Matthews most certainly did say that ‘no one was calling for her to drop out’. He said it this morning on Morning Joe. I remember because I almost did a spit-take with my coffee.
BTW, Call It, I don’t know who you are, but I always like it when you show up. You’re like a breath of fresh air; the voice of reason. Even when you disagree with me you do it in such a friendly way that I just can’t help but like you. Please visit more often (here and DWA).
I completely agree that the Issues Page is where one can be held accountable. But by who? The American people? I couldn’t give you one example where the American people have held their elected officials accountable for what they promised (2004 ring a bell?) Shit, Clinton preached in ’92 about Health Care and where has that gotten us in 16 years? Another election where major promises are being made about Health Care. I’m only 23 and even I can call bullshit on Clinton.
The American people are so brainwashed into choosing either Red or Blue that they don’t know what the fuck Red and Blue are anymore. That is how people vote. Not on issues, but on party lines. It’s truly a shame. So I cannot agree with you that the Issues Page is the place to go when trying to figure out who I want to throw my support behind. The Issues Page caters to party platforms, not personal convictions (See: George Bush…2000 Platform, fix social security….2000 personal wish, kill that clown Saddam for trying to get my daddy.) This is why you need a well rounded opinion, to separate fluff from fact.
No Nancy they said they never pushed the subject which makes them liar’s
Dom-
I really don’t agree with you on your continued support of Hillary. BUT I admire that you have found someone that represents you and your sticking by her. Hillary just seems to want the power SO much and I don’t think someone who WANTS it that bad should actually control it.
Thanks for the kind words, and I try to show up as often as I can. Keep on keeping on. I enjoy the conversation your passion sparks.
Call It – I don’t even vote on the issues anymore because, to your point, it’s all a bunch of fluff and empty promises and they really don’t have that much control over what happens anyway.
I vote for the person. Does he/she seem robotic or real? Reasonable or pig-headed? Laid-back or uptight? Is he/she able to articulate information in a clear, concise manner? In the event of an emergency, will I feel comfortable with him/her at the helm? Will he/she make a mockery of our country when dealing with foreign countries? Is he/she good under pressure? Has he/she demonstrated an ability to overcome adversity? Do I admire him/her? Many will mock me for my method, but I don’t care. I used to vote for the Dem regardless of what my instincts told me to do – usually because I was held hostage by the abortion issue. Well, I’ve turned over a new leaf and made a conscious decision not to compromise my principles anymore. I gotta tell you, it’s very liberating.
Isn’t it though? Although maybe I was a little hazy when I talked about voting on issues. I firmly believe that issues are THE biggest factor in choosing a candidate. I believe you should be INFORMED on issues, so you do not have to vote party lines. Being informed entails seeing the view from all sides, not just your own preferred. The fluff is still important because it makes up one view of the issue, so it is needed, along with other views, to find where someone stands. So Dom, your right, don’t compromise your principles. Just don’t judge a person solely on character. Shit, a lot of people say Bush is actually a nice dude.
I couldn’t give you one example where the American people have held their elected officials accountable for what they promised (2004 ring a bell?)
And whose fault is this? (Hint — it is not Wolf Blitzer)
Not on issues, but on party lines
To some extent. You can see the current swing in the Dem advantage in registrations as some signal in lack of confidence in repubs. But I would also argue that party lines is the easier vote to make, since a voter who wants to know a candidate’s stands on the issues certainly won’t get much better than a twisted Cliff Notes version of them all. Or you get the candidate’s talking points, or some talk radio personality’s talking points, which is the worst case scenario.
And I’ll remind everybody that lost of folks voted for GWB because he seemed like a guy they could have a beer with. And what we ended up with was the pig-headed, uptight, inarticulate guy who proceeded to read to kids while planes were hitting the WTC; made us into a long running joke overseas; and is widely admired for Mission Accomplished. And (as kavips is currently pointing out) this guy has quite the track record of saying one thing and doing another. Which I suppose is principles of some sort.
.
“But I would also argue that party lines is the easier vote to make”
Thanks for making my point. We have continually looked for the easier way out instead of challenging ourselves to actually LEARN about the people we are putting in office. Voting on party lines takes exactly zero brain power. But digging and digging to find out what a candidate is really about takes true brainpower. I personally like to come to sites like this because you all are not receiving a paycheck to have opinions, which means I can trust your convictions a little more than someone making 6 figures to have a certain opinion.
Just to be clear, I’m not looking to have a beer with any of the candidates. Christ, the conversation would be so one-sided ‘me, me, me, me and did I tell you about ME?’. Believe me, if people are voting on who they’d like to have a beer with, the media is painting Barack to be the winner, hands down. If I hear one more pundit refer to him as ‘cool’, I might puke.
All I’m saying is that I put a lot more weight on the intangibles (strength and endurance, for instance) than what they promise to do. I could promise to fly, but it doesn’t mean I will. I could give a shit if they’re nice or cool or funny. I want them to be smart and productive and I want them to demand greatness from those around them. I want them to have balls (even if they’re figurative).
DOM if your looking for a leader with balls then you got the right person in Hillary is your gal she is the Iron Lady hangs in there no matter how much they toss at her Obama whines too much and so does Bill that doesn’t help her but if what this party needs after the wimps of Gore and Kerry is a fighter and she’s my girl
‘And whose fault is this? (Hint — it is not Wolf Blitzer)’
Cassandra – I know you’re not going to want to hear (read) this, but I believe GWB won in 2000 & 2004 because the media gave him a pass on virtually every gaffe and misstep. Meanwhile, they pounded Gore and milked the swiftboaters for weeks on end. From where I’m sitting, they’re doing the exact same thing with Obama. They have not looked into his past (why has no one come forward to say they knew him when he was a community organizer? this is the claim of experience he quotes most often, after all). They have not held his feet to the fire on his experience and/or his promises of hope and change. They’ve held his hand and jumped to his defense through the more difficult times (Wright, ABC debate). All it takes is an electorate that wants to believe in something or someone different and a media willing to give them what they want to hear.
So, I’d have to disagree with you. It kind of was Wolf Blitzer’s (and co.) fault.
Thanks for making my point.
Not so fast. I would not make an argument about anybody’s brainpower — but would make the point that I did: that getting real information is real work. Turning on CNN or tuning over to Sean Hannity is not.
And am still interested in whose fault you think it is that pols are not held accountable….
CNN never cast all of the votes that made GWB President.
CNN never cast all of the votes that seated the Congress.
The media is supposed to help shine some light on the doings of government, and they have been quite bad at that for quite some time.
But as long as American citizens have to vote for their government, we’re the ones responsible for it. Abdicating your responsibilities as a citizen to CNN is sheer crap.
Hmm… do you want me to copy paste my last post as my response?
Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never once said it was CNN that was responsible. If you actually read my post, I was indicating it was the laziness of the American people. But hey, I’ll do it for you anyways…
“We have continually looked for the easier way out instead of challenging ourselves to actually LEARN about the people we are putting in office. Voting on party lines takes exactly zero brain power. But digging and digging to find out what a candidate is really about takes true brainpower. I personally like to come to sites like this because you all are not receiving a paycheck to have opinions, which means I can trust your convictions a little more than someone making 6 figures to have a certain opinion.”
Earlier I had said that going to CNN and other media types is important, because you have to know what the bullshit is in order to learn what is truth and what is not.
And the argument IS about brainpower, because you are a complete fucking idiot if you take the media, or the Issues Page, or your friends’ opinions alone as words made of stone.
D, you became ‘the dim one’ the minute you needed/required/requested to have the same perspective and facts shoveled at you over and over and over.
Get some help with your attention deficit problem and get back to me. I have no time for your ‘fun and games’.
FWIW, I see your take on this primary as some freaky self-identification with a female candidate that just screams me! me! me! me! You probably can imagine some of the saltier expressions that cross my mind when I read your tripe.
Nancy when this primary is over just how are you and other Obama supporters going to unite the party and how do you think Obama will react if it goes to Clinton????
It won’t go to Clinton, but keep dreaming. But since we’re in dreamland… let’s suppose it does go to Clinton. How would Hillary woo Obama supporters? How would she tell them that their candidate won the delegate race but they should ignore that fact because she’s better?
This race has been over for weeks – Just ask Chuck Todd. Or, better yet, tell Hillary.
TT – Nancy isn’t concerned with unity. She is in it purely for the sport of attacking those who don’t agree with her. Her objective is not to open minds (including her own), but to lash out and make personal attacks on those who don’t bow down to her great knowledge. She is completely humorless and appears to have pent-up rage that frequently oozes out onto various blogs. She is utterly incapable of civil discourse and offers nothing but large doses of the venom that has divided the Democratic party and may very well keep her candidate from winning in November. Trying to reason with her is like walking into a wasp nest and trying to talk them back in. It’s futile. Nothing good will come of it.
But since we’re in dreamland… let’s suppose it does go to Clinton. How would Hillary woo Obama supporters?
Easy…
Clinton: What are you gonna do?….vote for McCain?
It’s not going to go to Clinton. I’ve been saying the serenity prayer for months now and I think I’ve accepted it. I don’t like it, but I’ve accepted it. 🙂
heh, nothing like turning an argument inside out, Dimster.
When someone is thoroughly drummed, they take what they spewed and pretend someone else said it about them.
More Dimness.
So, Obama has been given kid gloves?
I don’t think so.
They ran with what they found and it wasn’t much but you can say that is because there isn’t much there: a foreign middle name, a land deal, a muslim school, a black inner city mega-pastor, a pin.
Sounds like a page out of one of my daughter’s I Spy books…
Mormons in magic underwear even get it.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/5/28/133237/788/555/524227
Yes. Sure. Fine. They’ve devoted just as much time on his, his wife’s and his surrogates’ gaffes as they have on the Clintons’. I mean, look at all the time they spent digging into his relationship with Tony Rezko – you know, how he hardly knew him then he knew him a little bit then, oh yeah, he did a bunch of fundraisers for him and helped him buy a fancy house. It was amazing how they picked it apart and scrutinized it like they did. They must have been working around the clock on that reporting! Remember how KO lashed out at him about it? And look at all the investigating they did on his years as a community organizer. I can’t believe they managed to find all of those people who worked with him and vouched for his ability to bring people together! That one brought a tear to my eye. OMG, I almost forgot all of the investigations they did on his ties to the nuclear industry and how they benefitted from the passage of the energy bill. Chris Matthews really had a field day with that one! That really must have worn poor Barack out. Oh, wow, how about the way they hammered him for claiming that he doesn’t take money from ‘Washington’ lobbyists, but he has no problem taking it from their wives, their co-workers and their friends. God, I thought David Shuster’s head would explode when he reported on that one for a solid week. I got so tired of watching all of that coverage, didn’t you?
Whatever. What does it even matter at this point? He won, she lost. You’d think you’d be happy. Instead, it’s just more nastiness. I guess you’re just not capable of normal human interaction. You’re not happy unless you’re beating the dead horse into a frothy, bloody pulp. Why are you so angry?
BTW, being referred to as ‘dim’ by a person who can’t even throw together a coherent thought is laughable.
P you haven’t been paying attention If my memory serves me Chuck Todd works for MSNBC and Matthews,Keith and David Shuster have been on all week stating that none of them or anyone on their net work ever said this race was over or suggested in any way that she get out.
Well if you tell a person that the race is over what does that suggest
The 200th commenter gets a free Acme Ice Cream Sandwich.
And don’t forget the comments by chuck every night “THE MATH DOESN”T WORK” and matthews and Keith’s response why “does she continue on” followed up by TIM Russert ” we are trying to figure that one out”
UPDATE GALLOP POLL May 28th Hillary win’s the general leaves mcCain and Obama in the Dust
PS.
The race is over.
UPDATE: You have a screw loose.
Five more…
I mean four more to 200…. The suspense is killing me.
Two red-heads holding their ground, HA!
Obama is vastly the stronger candidate for the general election. Thank goodness for Scottie McClellan’s impecable timing, though.
There is plenty in his book, What Happened, to unify the DEMs and Independents and a great many GOPer old school conservatives around the DEM nominee.
‘Obama is vastly the stronger candidate for the general election.’
Based on what? Your gut? Certainly not the polling.
Jason you more than likely have a problem you answers are childish
Ok for those that can read here and that sometimes is very doubtful go to today’s news Journal and read Ronda B. Graham’s article it appears that she agrees with Dom and myself on MSNBC.
Ronda B. Graham works for the News Journal. ’nuff said.
The good news is that all of these nonsense comments have not been in vain.
YOU WIN THE ACME ICE CREAM SANDWICH !!!
damn it. i really wanted that ice cream sandwich. 🙁
Hey, it’s my post! Don’t I win something? Honestly guys, 202 comments? Wow!
And this pushing out the race bullshit… it’s the math stupid. Always was.
Well we saw how much your Boy (oops) will allow himelf be pushed around. The Senile Old man scolded him for not going to Iraq to see just what was going on. And what does Obama do like a good little student he is following the teacher’s orders ( AND THIS IS CALLED LEADERSHIP) maybe on the part of McCaine.
And you folks want me to support a person who acts so weakly to allow McCain to lead him around by the nose.
BY THE WAY YOUR POST P. REALLY GOT THINGS STRIED UP>
Yes, D, on the polling. There are all sorts of polls and I realize that not all of them show this:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,331691,00.html
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/14/poll-shows-both-clinton-and-obama-beating-mccain/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jon-wiener/latest-poll-mccain-beats_b_87213.html
The Clinton’s baggage would always be in play.
Aren’t you precious. Those are national polls, Genius. Do you need me to explain the electoral college to you? Hasn’t your membership in the I Heart Obama Club taught you that the popular vote doesn’t count for shit? Or is he planning to change those rules in the general?
Dom you and I are the only ones who understand that this race is not over until the convention. This meeting Saturday of the Rules committee doesn’t settle anything. All those folks on this site who have been telling us that the Rules are the Rules and therefore we should shut up and agree that Obama wins don’t really know what the Rules are. So let me enlighten Jason and others with their one liners. The rules of the party state that no matter what the ruling is this coming Saturday they are NOT OFFICAL UNTIL APPROVED BY THE MAJORITY OF THE CONVENTION DELEGARES AT THE CONVENTION. So unless we are all mind readers and can see the future anything can happen and so this race is not over.
Also I notice that the supporters of Obama on this site chose to ignore the fact that their guy is being directed by the Senile Old man on the Iraq thing
TT – Obama supporters are very focused on ‘the rules’ and ‘the math’. Interestingly, one of their heros (and, coincidentally the biggest Hillary attacker in Blogland), Markos from DK, had this to say about the candidates in January (pay close attention to the part ‘Who’s playing to win?’ portion)…
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1/2/12427/74720
Funny how he kind of brushed off ‘the rules’ completely before he decided to hate Hillary. I guess rules only matter when they benefit a candidate you like. I don’t recall any Dems standing by ‘the rules’ when Gore lost in 2000. Somehow I remember lots of panties tied up in knots.
Good article however i don’t believe any of them will read it or if they do will just brush off his opinion because it doesn’t conform to their thinking
Father Pfleger another pastor problem for Obama what an ass this Priest was watching his sermon on Sunday mocking Hillary and invoking the race card was disgusting at least but Most of all and I agree Here with ( Marion Barry) was the reaction of the folks in the pews dancing and clapping to the hate and race baiting of his sermon.
This Priest is a close associate of Obama and was used in his campaigns and listed on his Webb site so this is just another example of the company you keep
Just so we have this straight, TT, you want those folks who are dancing in the aisles to vote Democrat. You just don’t want them seen in public because, you know, white people are scared of them. Or am I reading too much into your reaction above?
You realize, I hope, how this sounds — as if you’re saying, “I’m bright enough to see through this, but most people aren’t.” Funny how much of the continued Hillary support takes that form these days.
And Dom, I’ll tellyou how much those polls you love are worth: At this point in 2004, John Kerry held a lead of about 75 electoral votes using the state-by-state polling metric you favor. How’d that work our for ya?
Why can’t pastors just behave themselves? Why can’t they just stick to what’s in the bible? Why?
I really thought our country was moving forward in terms of race relations. I thought our parents’ generation was the last one that was overtly racist. This election has been such an eye-opener for me. Not only is racism alive and well, it appears to be acceptable and even encouraged in the black community. One need only look the candidates’ support among blacks vs. whites to see that.
I don’t think this recent pastor/priest dust-up reflects poorly on Obama. I think it reflects poorly on society as a whole. If this is the kind of shit that’s being shoveled in black churches, we’re never going to move forward. It’s church, for fuck’s sake. It’s where people are supposed to go to learn about peace and understanding – wtf ever happened to ‘love thy neighbor’?
Unfortunately, this is probably only going to get worse for Obama in the general. I say that sincerely. I don’t support Obama, but if he loses the election it should be because he’s less qualified than his opponent, not because of his membership in a church he probably didn’t walk into more than a handful of times. Instead, he will likely face difficulty in many of those red states he believes are in play because people – especially in the south and the midwest – are uncomfortable with that kind of behavior (whooping and hollering when someone is mocked for being white).
If Obama supporters were intellectually honest, they’d admit that this will be a problem – even if they don’t think it should be. They’d also admit that if similar language was being used by Hillary’s pastor, they’d be completely inconsolable. Somehow I doubt that will happen.
Al – I agree with you whole-heartedly about the polls. I was simply responding to Nancy’s claim. It works both ways, though.
What a shocker, the Dimness links to Kos to prove a point! heh.
Google is your friend. As I said, polls will say whatever.
I say:
The people of MI and FL who wanted to cast a vote for Obama couldn’t or didn’t because of the rules endorsed by all the DEM candidates.
Why do the Hillbots hate Americans so much that they want to deny them their vote?
Here is why Obama will prevail over McSame:
http://washingtonbureau.typepad.com/nationalsecurity/2008/05/what-happened.html
No Al my point is that if you say anything no matter innocent it is against obama you are accused of being a raciest and this Priest was making racist remarks against Hillary and the crowd applauds them if you can’t see the difference go back to judging food.
Nancy i just read you last post and I think it’s you that are confused. To answer your Question “WHY DO HILLBOS HATE AMERICA SO MUCH” It’s not Hillary supporters that hate america it’s Pastor Wright and Mrs Obama, if i remember the pastor said GOD DAMM AMERICA and Mrs Obama by her statement was never proud of this country.
Also Al Marion Barry a Black female was not so much turned off by the priest Remarks she considered them as assigned but the crowds response to them. Not only was this priest who is close to obama making racist remarks but also blamed Whiter people for the failure of blacks to advance. So according to you white racism is bad Black racism is good. ( you speak to that one)
As far as me not wanting them the blacks dancing and clapping to be seen in public ( your words not mind) points out that you must believe in the Bradley effect and if you are correct we will be subject to 4 more years of Bush
‘I say:
The people of MI and FL who wanted to cast a vote for Obama couldn’t or didn’t because of the rules endorsed by all the DEM candidates.
Why do the Hillbots hate Americans so much that they want to deny them their vote?’
Seriously? Is this a joke? No one kept people from going to the polls. Let’s be honest here. Obama and Edwards removed their names from the ballot in a lame attempt to pander to IA & NH voters. No one forced them to. The DNC didn’t require it. When MI & FL were discussing a revote, Obama put the kibosh on it. If anyone has denied those states a vote, it’s Senator Barack Obama. This is getting plain silly.
The reason I posted a link to DK is because you have already established that you consider that site to be a legitimate source for information. I’m just trying to play by your rules, sweetie. I couldn’t help but notice that you didn’t have anything to say about the content of the link. Predictable.
How does that ridiculous link prove that Obama will beat McCain? It may prove that you really, really, really want Obama to beat McCain, but all I read was blah, blah, Bush, blah, blah, Iraq, blah, blah, lied. Do you expect the electorate to base their vote solely on the Iraq war? Sadly, that’s not likely the way it will go down. I’m guessing their priorities will be:
1) Economy
2) Economy
3) Economy
Not that McCain is a powerhouse when it comes to the economy, but neither is Obama. Once the GOP paints him as a tax-raisin’, white-hatin’ liberal with Muslim relatives and questionable professional ties (and they will), it’s not exactly going to be a cake walk for him.
If you think Hillary was hard on Barack, you best fasten your seatbelt. There’s nothing the GOP enjoys more than offending squeamish Dems with hideous attacks. It’s blood sport for them. They won’t be spending every news cycle apologizing to the good Senator for having bruised his feelings like Clinton was shamed into doing. They’ll strut like peacocks and tell him to suck it up and take it like a man. C’mon, someone as politically astute as you doesn’t need me to tell you that.
I continue to hope that reality will find its way back into your life.
So, you are fine being a cheat, D? Go with it.
Even Clinton knows she would be called a cheater if she tried to force the DNC to only count her votes in MI and FL
http://delawareway.blogspot.com/2008/05/clinton-concedes-dnc-rules-were-broken.html
I believe the thing that has really pissed off Hillary’s supporters the most is the fact that this has been the closest primary race in History and the media and Obama people fail to acknowledge it but have attempted to push her out since Iowa.
I hope she pulls a Ted Kennedy and takes it to the convention for a floor fight. Look he never campaigned for Carter or brought his people over which gave us 12 years of Reagan & Bush. And look at Ted today loved by all in the party so whats the downside?
the media and Obama people fail to acknowledge it but have attempted to push her out since Iowa.
This right here is revisionist bullshit. HRC herself didn’t start pushing this BS until after Ohio (why wouldn’t she complain earlier?) and you are just repeating the talking points. No one was pushing her out since Iowa.
But just like your Iron Lady, you’ve got your own narrative and you are sticking to it.
I believe the thing that has really pissed off Hillary’s supporters the most is the fact that this has been the closest primary race in History
…which she lost.
Get over it.
Once again we are going to see the Rules committee side against the voters of Florida by awarding 100% to the party hacks and cutting the voters Delegates in half. Take it to the Convention Hillary lets have a floor fight you are closer to the nomation than Ted Kennedy was.
You Obama supporters are the biggest bunch of hypocrites on the planet. If the tables were turned, you would be crying foul. If she had taken her name off the MI ballot (in an effort to pander to IA and NH), you would be saying ‘tough titty’. If he led in the popular vote and she led in the delegate total, you would scream ‘RACISM!!!’. Let’s be honest here, kids.
Dimness, don’t tell anyone what is in their hearts. Your lack of principle dosen’t translate to anyone else. You are transposing your own corruption and it is a defenseless cheap shot to turn tables on the decent people who blog here.
Just saw Welxter surrender for Obama even if it’s split 100% for hacks and 50% for the voters Hillary wins the fight in Florida. This concession on the part of Obama gives her the most poplar vote.
Stick that fact in you pipe and smoke it Jason you guy caved
Nancy based on you last couple of post against Dom calling her corrupt leads me to believe that you are not one of the decent people who blog here.
Nancy – you’re absolutely right. I have no idea what’s in your heart. Why don’t you tell me. How would you feel if the tables were turned?Try your hardest to be honest.
Cass you need to get your facts straight the media and obama supporters have been attempting to push her out since Iowa and you and the rest of them were shocked when she won NH which by the way Matthews did his best to insert the Race card by suggestion that the NH voters were bias against blacks. Because obama didn’t do as well as the polls predicted look I’ve seen the Hillary nut cracker doll I just wounder what your reaction would be to a LITTLE BLACK SAMBO DOLL. Since there wasn’t any reaction to the smearing of Hillary
Race and gender? I just reread all the posts here, and I am truly disgusted. Hillary suppoters do their candidate no favors. You accuse Obama supporters of hating Hillary. Frankly, I don’t see that bile posted here.
What I have seen are comments referring to Obama as “boy” and “little black sambo”. I’ve read about his “pastor” association and how black churches are racist.
The Republican smear machine has nothing on you guys.
So, here’s a suggestion. Why don’t Hillary supporters try and look at this race from Obama supporters point of view. What if she were ahead in the delegate math?
And while you’re thinking that over… SOME of you might want to take a look in the mirror (or reread your comments). Disgusting.
‘Frankly, I don’t see that bile posted here.’
HAHAHA! I guess you’ve completely glossed over every single one of Jason’s comments and posts on this site.
Obama wasn’t referred to as Little Black Sambo. I know David Axelrove likes to mischaracterize the statements of his opponents, but I expect a little more from you, P. TT just implied that a Little Black Sambo doll would be as offensive as the Hillary nutcracker that is currently being sold. You don’t need me to tell you that.
You might want to ask yourself the same question about looking at the other side’s POV. If Obama was within a hair of the nomination and you absolutely knew in your heart that he was the strongest candidate, would you honestly want him to drop out rather than take it to end?
I never believed MY candidate was INEVITABLE. And the “Sambo” comment coming after the “boy” comment displays a breathtaking ugliness and hateful pattern.
Also, the Hillary nutcracker is an image SHE projected. (Personally, I think the nutcracker is tacky) HRC has been the one, from the very beginning, perpetuating this vision of herself… She’s a “fighter”. She can play as well as the “big boys”. The “Iron Lady”. “Testicular fortitude”. Basically she painted herself as a ball buster.
And she played the gender game as a positive until she started losing. Then gender morphed into victim.
And, yes Dom, I would want him to drop out, because unlike others here I have always said that I will vote for a DEM in November, no matter who.
All I can say is THANK GOD FOR HILLARY CLINTON!
TT: If you can’t tell the difference between racism (holding an inferior group in fear and contempt) and what blacks feel for whites (holding a superior group in fear and contempt), you’re the one with the problem, not me.
Resenting black people for resenting white people is just another form of racial animus.
If you actually cared to educate yourself, there’s a world of literature on this. But I realize that, as a Hillary supporter, there’s a better-than-even chance that learning things isn’t your long suit.
“Stick that fact in you pipe and smoke it Jason you guy caved”
You still don’t get it, TT: Our side believes in negotiation and compromise. It’s your side that admires fighting like drug-crazed wolverines.
Your side believes in negotiation and compromise only when it benefits your candidate, which is precisely the reason Obama blocked revote efforts.
‘TT: If you can’t tell the difference between racism (holding an inferior group in fear and contempt) and what blacks feel for whites (holding a superior group in fear and contempt), you’re the one with the problem, not me.’
So, can I infer that in your world it’s ok for women to lash out at men – all men – as being abusive, hateful and oppressive? I would find grouping all men into that stereotype pretty reprehensible and unfair, but I suppose you’re fine with it.
Racism is racism regardless of which race is perpetuating it. You don’t need me to tell you that. You’re just being silly now. Obama spent almost half his life attending and financially supporting that church. Making excuses for the racism that is promoted there – that he sat idly by and, not only tolerated , but supported – is yet another feeble attempt to excuse away his poor judgment. Can’t say I didn’t see that coming.
If it was Hillary’s church, I’m sure you would see it in a completely different light.
Al I have done more for Race relations in this State then you have all you ever done was talk about them i took action that improved their lot. those on this site that know me know that’s a fact.
So until you can tell me where you bucked the powers that be and made a change in a system that held Blacks down for over fifty years your snide remarks are not welcome here
“Al I have done more for Race relations in this State then you have all you ever done was talk about them i took action that improved their lot. those on this site that know me know that’s a fact.”
Who do you mean by “those on this site”? I don’t know who you are; all I have is your self-aggrandizing web name.
Also, I couldn’t care less what you’ve done for race relations in the context of this discussion. Whatever it was doesn’t excuse your attitude about what you call “racism” against whites.
“So until you can tell me where you bucked the powers that be and made a change in a system that held Blacks down for over fifty years your snide remarks are not welcome here”
Oh really? So your attitude towards Trinity is based on what, exactly, Mr. or Ms. Champion of the Blacks?
Maybe if you used your name I’d have a better idea of how much respect you should be accorded. then again, if it was all that much respect you’d probably be using your real name, wouldn’t you?
See, I use my real name even though a lot of people don’t like me, even though it puts me at a disadvantage against those who want to get personal.
I buck the system every day, sport. I call out powerful people for a living. You, on the other hand, claim to tell the truth — from behind an alias. You don’t find that at least a little hypocritical? Or was it meant to be ironic?
Yes a lot of gab on the radio but no action
How you get off telling me about trinty is a joke
Go back to telling us where not to eat at least you were right 25% of the time
“Racism is racism regardless of which race is perpetuating it. You don’t need me to tell you that. You’re just being silly now.”
Racism: “a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race”
Are you seriously maintaining that black attitudes toward whites come from the African-American community’s feelings of SUPERIORITY to other races? Seriously? You think they consider themselves our SUPERIORS? These people whose equality to the white race wasn’t even questioned for hundreds of years — they were simply ASSUMED to be inferior — they’ve actually thought all along they should be our lords and masters? You’ve gotta be kidding me.
When a Rush Limbaugh mocks the powerless and comforts the powerful, does that strike you as basically the same thing as Chris Rock mocking white people (leaving aside the fact that, unlike Rush, Rock also mocks his audience, something the conservative yuckmeisters never do)?
If yes to either paragraph, we have irreconcilable worldviews.
TT: Easy to be brave from behind an alias. I take all your comments, then, in the knowledge of y our personal cowardice.
I will note, however, that your execrable spelling, shaky grasp of logic and less-than-clever insults lead me to suspect you’re an active Democrat of the union sort.
A Democrat of the union sort
What’s that Al a put down of the working man an woman.
If you will recall it was the unions who made the middle class in this country.
As far as my spelling goes the nuns didn’t do a very good job and it appears that my spell checker by Google also is lacking.
Racism on any level be it Black or White should be condemned. That is why I believed that the Priest was out of line and I said so.
One of the things that we should all guard against is to accuse someone of racism when all they did was disagree with your point of view this is the quickest way to cut off honest debate
I have accused nobody of racism. I have repeatedly pointed out that you Hillary supporters who resent being called racist don’t understand the concept — at least, not as we “elites” do (I love, by the way, how only people who belong to unions are “working people.”) If you think whites are “victims of racism” when blacks say derogatory things about them, you don’t understand the concept of racism. Racism isn’t mocking a person for his or her characteristics. Racism is systematic. What was said at Trinity was a lot of things, stupid among them, but it wasn’t racist.
Further, I think it’s absurd to pretend there’s an absolute equality between sexism, a problem most of the world shares, and racism, a problem America shares with few other cultures, even fewer of which have our history of a civil war over slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow on top.
I seem to detect a guilty feeling in your reply Al
First Al the priest was racist in his remarks also a bit stupid.
Pastor Wright was just plain un American
C’mon, Al. I know you think you’re dealing with an amateur, but, seriously, give me a little credit. That’s not the only dictionary definition of racism, but – again – you don’t need me to tell you that. You conveniently skipped over this one:
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
So, yes, the congregants of that church who whoop and holler at the mention of whitey keeping the black man down and who act like they hit the lottery when they see Hillary Clinton being mocked and accused of being entitled because she’s right are, in fact, racist.
I know the difference between Rush and Chris Rock. What I saw on that pulpit was closer to Rush than you may care to admit.
Al – I’m seriously confused by your statement about the equality of sexism and racism. Are you saying they are equal or not? It sounds like you’re saying that sexism is more prevalent than racism. Am I misreading that?
I ask that because my son and I have been having an ongoing, often heated, dispute about this very subject. I feel as though the significance of sexism is downplayed. He believes that racism is a far worse problem than sexism while I believe that they are equally bad. I would be interested to see where you weigh in.
Gosh Al the Hillary supporters who resent being called racist don’t understand the concept.
How about just resenting being called a derogatory name.
Please don’t tell me you truly believe your statement.
For if you do i can no longer engage in an honest dialog with you