Communion
Back in 2004, we all remember certain Catholic priests and bishops threatening to deny communion to John Kerry should he dare enter their church. As a Catholic, I was offended by that because it seemed to be anti-Christian. I think we Christians often forget who we are supposed to be following (i.e. Jesus Christ). Would Jesus deny communion in such a fashion? No. He would want to talk to the supposed transgressor about the issues that seek to divide us. Well, at least I think so.
Anyway, that is why I am very encouraged by the words of Incoming Bishop W. Francis Malooly of the Diocese of Wilmington.
From WDEL (by way of the Catholic magazine “Dialog”):
DIALOG: “Regarding the candidates themselves, the reception of communion by Catholic candidates who support abortion rights remains an issue, one that has received added attention recently with the selection of Delaware Sen. Joseph Biden as the Democratic vice-presidential nominee. Some American bishops have had public confrontations but most still seem to handle the issue by talking to the candidate privately.”
Bishop Malooly: “I look forward to the opportunity to enter into a dialogue on a number of issues with Sen. Biden and other Catholic leaders in the Diocese of Wilmington. However, I do not intend to get drawn into partisan politics nor do I intend to politicize the Eucharist as a way of communicating Catholic Church teaching. It is critical to keep the lines of communication open if the church is going to make her teachings understood and, please God, accepted. It is my belief that Catholics of all occupations have the same duty to examine their own consciences before determining their own worthiness for the reception of communion.
I think I will get a lot more mileage out of a conversation trying to change the mind and heart than I would out of a public confrontation. That might not make some people happy who feel there ought to be a confrontation but I have to follow my own conscience and try to do what I can for the long term.”
I am glad to hear that. No priest should be denying communion to someone based upon their political beliefs.
BREAKING NEWS: MIKE W AND DELAWARE DEM AGREE ON AN ISSUE!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow. Never thought I’d see the day.
World coming to an end at 7.
As an atheist I find the whole thing comical, but there was a cool quote on the Mudflaps blog yesterday or two days back:
“Jesus was a community organizer. Pontius Pilate was a governor.”
As long as we maintain the Jeffersonian wall… I’m fine.
Actually DD I’m willing to bet there’s a whole host of issues on which you and I agree.
I’m not particularly religious, so the whole God + politics melding just pisses me off.
This politicizing of the sacraments always pissed me off too — I think that priests may well be within their rights to refuse the sacraments, but to do so with the kind of high profile that some did in 2004 was beyond the pale. If anything, it allowed the Church to completely ignore that a civic government has to be accountable to all of its citizens, not just to those who hold the same beliefs. Trying to make the tenets of your Church into a governing philosophy is what John Kennedy had to reassure people about back in the day and is the kind of thing we give the Christian nationalists hell about.
In your opinion DD, is there any reason that anyone should ever be denied the Eucharist?
“Trying to make the tenets of your Church into a governing philosophy ”
Unfortunately that’s something the church did throughout most of history, and one of the biggest reasons why America was founded. That’s why folks like Huckabee scare me so much.
If there is a reason, Duffy, it shouldn’t be done publicly.
Sure. If you are not Catholic, you should be denied the Eucharist. If you are not baptised. And even if you are a Catholic, if you feel that you have not confessed to God recent sins, you should not take communion either. Bishop Malooly made reference to that at the end of his comments above.
For example, if I went out drinking on Saturday night, coveting many neighbor’s wives and partaking in the sins of gluttony and lust, I should not be taking communion the next morning. I would first need to go to confession and do the required penance.
Duffy – I can’t think of any legitimate reason to deny communion to anyone.
Oh, Mike, there are legitimate reasons. See my post above.
DD – Quite true. Though I’m sure plenty of sinners take communion when they should not and the Priest has no way of knowing.
I was thinking more along the lines of non-religious reasons.
Ah. No, I can’t think of any.
“For example, if I went out drinking on Saturday night, coveting many neighbor’s wives and partaking in the sins of gluttony and lust, I should not be taking communion the next morning. I would first need to go to confession and do the required penance.”
Hmm…if receiving communion were like the NFL I think this would put me on “injured reserve.”
Good thing about 10 years ago for lent I gave up being Catholic.
Oh please keep this up… this thread is fantastic… so if I get splashed with “special” water by a possible pedophile, then regularly admit to the same that I overate Saturday night whilst desiring to nail the waitress I can share your cracker? Do I also need to speak with my invisible friend in Latin or may I converse in English?
You do see how silly this is, yes?
You guys are still eating the body of Christ? How barbaric.
Delaware Liberal has been very hospitable to me; I would not wrecklessly ruin my stay. But if any one of you astute indi-Fing-viduals look toward the church as anything but a pyramid scam you are incapable …to improve anything.
You want to create a netroots movement? Tax the Fing church! Obama, Markell, Denn, the guys whose banner I follow all speak of expanding faith-based initiaves with my tax dollars. Let me hear you scream separation while ignoring this. Experiment with my monthly objective and call an elected official demanding tax on tithe. The response is chilling. Think for a moment the tax dollars whisked away to Rome or England or Saudi Arabia or India. Fix that then discontinue our tithe to China.
“so if I get splashed with “special” water by a possible pedophile, then regularly admit to the same that I overate Saturday night whilst desiring to nail the waitress I can share your cracker?”
I still think Dorian that you were once an altar server. You have WAY too much anger over the church..
Anything you would like to….confess?
I’m with Joe. I’ve resigned myself to the fact that for historical reasons these candidates have to say how much they love Jesus – whether allegorically and metaphorically (like Obama) or literally and ludicrously (like Palin). But I am not going to sit here and pretend it makes any sense – because it doesn’t. From Spinoza to Paine to Einstein to Dawkins to Hitchens… it isn’t real and it has no part in intellectual discourse other than to try to combat it.
By the way, I am watching Biden at a Townhall in Langhorne, PA on MSNBC. He’s holding court and knockin’ em dead!
Just a quick comment – I find all this religion bashing distasteful. Everyone, including atheists, tends to feel their own view of how the world was created makes them superior to everyone else. My religion tells me I am one of the “Chosen People” (apparently we were chosen to be slaughtered several times each century), but I don’t walk around trying to put others down for believing differently.
Hi Chris! I was an altar boy at St. Catherine of Sienna in the early ’80s. There was a preist named Joe McGovern who tried to get in my pants. Its documented and his name has been posted in the News Journal. Now please explain to me what a confession from a victim is. Violators, offenders and indicted make confessions. Victims make statements. Numbnuts.
To Dorian Gray’s comment #20 I say…Amen brother! (snarkity snark snark)
“If there is a reason, Duffy, it shouldn’t be done publicly.”
How does one do so privately? If I present myself at Mass and the priest knows that I am publicly opposing the church in word and in deed he would be violating his oath to allow me to take communion.
“if you feel that you have not confessed to God recent sins, you should not take communion either. ”
Feel? You either did or you didn’t.
“For example, if I went out drinking on Saturday night, coveting many neighbor’s wives (Ed: your neighbor has more than one wife?) and partaking in the sins of gluttony and lust, I should not be taking communion the next morning. I would first need to go to confession and do the required penance.”
So, if the priest knows you did those things and you know, what should he do if you present yourself anyway?
Religion is something I really don’t think about… except when it spills into politics. I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic School, and left the church in my late teens – not that I was ever really in the church.
I have no problem with anyone’s personal faith. I do have a problem with people who wear their religion on their sleeves and believe that religion automatically makes them morally and ethically superior. It does not.
Unfortunately, we haven’t evolved past requiring religion of our politicians. In fact, we’ve reached new heights. IMO, anyone who evokes their religion in a political debate (in public or on blogs, or even in my living room) is doing nothing more than pimping out their “god”.
OK I’ll confess. Twelve years of Catholic school, never raped or assaulted thank goodness but with some of the churches I belonged to I think I really dodged a bullet. Some of my schoolboy pastor are going to prison.
I am angry though. I am angry that I have to pretend that the earth might be only 6,000 years old when it isn’t… that the bible is inerrant and non-contradictory when it is not. These are not opinions, these are facts.
If you want to base your morality on some metaphorical fairy tale, that’s fine. I just don’t want to hear about it. And I don’t think it has any place in public discourse, because, as Joe so eloquently said, it is a scam and nothing more.
X-S, I find it distasteful that groups of people can take position contrary to fact yet I am not permitted to mention it because it is somehow offensive. If you are going to pretend it’s real I think it’s fair game for scrutiny.
I should point out that Religion isn’t necessary for a group to profess moral superiority. Political “religion” (Ideology) works just as well.
I quite often see the attitude among liberals that they’re morally superior to the bible-thumping, gun-toting folks in America’s heartland, that somehow those folks are backward and “unenlightened” in the ways of contemporary liberalism. That kind of moral superiority is no less offensive and ignorant than what we see from parts of the religious right.
For me, publicly means not in front of TV cameras or for the record with reporters. A priest who bypasses you in the Communion line is about as public(with your church community) as it ought to get. A compassionate priest will intercept you ahead of time (before Mass) and warn you against even getting in line.
I knew Mike would sneak a gun reference in this post!
Pandora – Except that is not the main point of my comment. But hey, cling to that talking point.
Oh for fuck sake Mike do you frame every issue the same way. You are so smart and creative!
I love you folks. Do you do a Ctrl F search for guns and then turn your brains off or something?
” I am one of the “Chosen People””
nothing distasteful about that, is there?
The human race in its entirety has barely made it out alive. Aboriginals, Mayans, Incas and native Americans ring a bell, fella? Nothing is more distasteful than a belief holding superiority over non-believers. With all due respect, please wave bye as you soar to the land of milk & honey, honey.
And for salvations sake somebody, please visit Mike’s gunblog!
New Pope: New Doctrine
That’s my take, based on the Pope’s rather impressive performance on these shores earlier this year…
“Open lines of communication, call things as they are, and start working to make them better…..”
Yeah Kavips. What was that about ghetto and pimps and crack on your blog? What doctrine is that?
The entire Christian doctrine is based on fallacious premises – that’s the point. Your doctrine is based on faith in the unseen and unproveable, mine is not. There is no work to do. There is no discussion to have really. We’re not on equal footing here. Frankly, I don’t know what the pope is talking about.
“The entire Christian doctrine is based on fallacious premises – that’s the point. Your doctrine is based on faith in the unseen and unproveable”
Isn’t all religion based on such unprovable premises? Faith in general is based upon the unseen. Don’t say things about the “Christian Doctrine” as it it’s somehow special. That’s religion, all religions are based on the unseen.
Do you SEE how deep Mike is? Do you see?
Bleh. The Roman Catholic church still does that? Speaking as someone who was baptized Episcopalian, confirmed Anglican Catholic, and married in a Methodist church, I find that tenet of the Roman Catholic church to be almost as distasteful as politicizing the sacrament. Regardless, good on the bishop for stopping the blatant politicizing… now to work on some of the finer points… :).
“Do you SEE how deep Mike is? Do you see?”
Do you see how Joe C’s comments are juvenile and add nothing whatsoever to the debate? If you’ve got something substantive to say they say it Joe.
In response to some of the religion-bashing in this thread:
Hey, you are all entitled to your opinions. If you are an atheist, I think it is quite right that you think the faithful are all nuts. If you are a lapsed Catholic or were formerly religious, but have been turned away for one reason or another (whether it be the priest abuse scandals or disagreement with certain doctrine), then it is perfectly fine to say why you disagree with religion.
Here is my omnibus view on the whole issue:
I am a Catholic. A practicing one. But I am also a “cafeteria Catholic.” I strongly disagree with the Catholic Church on some of their doctrines. For example, I do not believe birth control is a sin. It is responsible. And it saves lives and it betters lives.
I do not believe abortion is always, without a doubt, immoral. For myself, I oppose abortion because I do believe life begins at conception, but that is my personal belief in my current circumstances. Sometimes abortion is medically necessary to save the life of the mother. Is that mother now evil and guilty of a sin? No. And sometimes people choose abortion for their own reasons, which I may disagree with, but it is not my place to judge. It is between the mother, father and God, and only those three know the circumstances of the choice. That is why I am pro-choice, for I do believe abortion is a deeply personal matter that no one else should dare involve themselves in.
I also disagree with the doctrine that all priests must be men, and that all priests must stay unmarried. I think a lot of problems within the church would be addressed if we allow women priests, and if we allow all priests to marry and families of their own. Indeed, I believe priests would become better spiritual advisers if they had some family experience of their own to draw on.
And of course, I disagreed and still disagree with the way the whole priest abuse scandal was covered up and then addressed. My punishment of the church has been to cease tithing (i.e. donating certain percentage of my income to the Church). My money will not pay for their sins.
With all these disagreements, you may wonder why I stay a practicing Catholic. It is because of my family heritage and tradition. And I do find it brings me peace and balance. I feel connected to my late grandparents and great grandparents when I do pray or go to Mass. And as such, religion remains a deeply personal and private part of people’s lives.
Thus, think twice before you so forcefully condemn it or trash it. You are entitled to your opinion, but remember what religion is to a lot of people.
“I may disagree with, but it is not my place to judge. It is between the mother, father and God, and only those three know the circumstances of the choice. That is why I am pro-choice, for I do believe abortion is a deeply personal matter that no one else should dare involve themselves in.”
I see we’re on the same page on the abortion issue as well DD. Now if only you could apply much of what you’ve said in the above post to some other issues.
DD, would you vote to have your church pay taxes? Property and holdings?
You know, the taxes churches don’t pay; the taxes we bitch that corporations don’t pay; the taxes that keep the parishioners in hock? Just asking, not bashing.
So you are pro-choice, Mike W?
Joe C,
Those are interesting questions that I do not have the answers to yet. I need to think it more. My initial thought is that many Protestant churches would go bankrupt immediately if forced to pay taxes. I don’t think that is a good thing.
“This politicizing of the sacraments always pissed me off too — I think that priests may well be within their rights to refuse the sacraments, but to do so with the kind of high profile that some did in 2004 was beyond the pale.”
Why?
“Unfortunately that’s something the church did throughout most of history, and one of the biggest reasons why America was founded.”
No……
“Oh please keep this up… this thread is fantastic… so if I get splashed with “special” water by a possible pedophile, then regularly admit to the same that I overate Saturday night whilst desiring to nail the waitress I can share your cracker? Do I also need to speak with my invisible friend in Latin or may I converse in English?
You do see how silly this is, yes?”
Don’t be small
“I am angry that I have to pretend that the earth might be only 6,000 years old when it isn’t… that the bible is inerrant and non-contradictory when it is not. These are not opinions, these are facts.”
And interestingly they are not the opinions of the Catholic Church……
“Your doctrine is based on faith in the unseen and unproveable, mine is not.”
Yes it is.
“I find that tenet of the Roman Catholic church to be almost as distasteful as politicizing the sacrament.”
Why?
“Sometimes abortion is medically necessary to save the life of the mother. Is that mother now evil and guilty of a sin?”
FYI – the Church has always said that abortion is permissible if the life of the mother is in danger. It is still killing, but it is, in that case, justified.
“I think a lot of problems within the church would be addressed if we allow… priests to marry and families of their own. Indeed, I believe priests would become better spiritual advisers if they had some family experience of their own to draw on.”
Counterpoint – I have been lucky enough to get to know several priests rather well throughout my life – those guys don’t have time for a puppy let alone a family.
“DD, would you vote to have your church pay taxes? Property and holdings?”
Is the Catholic Church a for-profit organization?
Why should they have to pay taxes?
Why, Tom? Because Christians are Christians. So far as I am aware and have experienced personally, the Roman Catholic church is the only sect of Christianity to refuse a sacred sacrament to all other sects of Christianity. The Bible was fairly clear on the topic – the only requirements for taking communion were being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and coming to the table repentent and clear of sins. Membership in one particular sect? Not so much. For most Christians, the baptism is taken care of as a child, and in most sects, the “clear of sins” part is covered by having a confession built into the service shortly before communion (you are on your own if you sin in the interveneing minutes). If, however, someone comes to the table who is not baptized, and/or not repentant, and/or not free of sin… that is on them, and no one else.
uh Tom. If I may bring you back to the beginning of the blog (because you’re to enlightened to absorb it all):
“Back in 2004, we all remember certain Catholic priests and bishops threatening to deny communion to John Kerry should he dare enter their church.” Now, I may be an idiot, and I’m sure that I am, but that comes from a (inter)national organization directly into public domain in effort to create public policy. Now remember, I’m an idiot, but you get my point and being disengenuous makes you what? Say it with me darlin’ “An Idiot”. Every other idiot (excluding you) knows the heads of the church amass profit. Just because they don’t drive Maseratis and hang in the Hamptons must make the determination for you. Thing is, Tommy, the cool thing about amassing wealth is the ability to affect policy. I think its called lobby. You go on Tommy, whatever you can do to help.
DelDem–that was a very unexpected “sharing moment” you gave us in #42. Good for you. And I get it…but unlike you the cafeteria Catholic stuff drove me nuts across families, parishes, dioceases etc..Vatican 2 began all that….and I ended up Mormon….who would have thought? I needed a lifestyle not a Sunday only thing….otherwise, I should have just been Amish!!! Oh well, it’s a spiritual/life journey for many. The boys are at Sallies…and I am GRATEFUL for the upbringing…..but not the doubt…and the whole unmarried thing…heck, even Christ only ministered 3 years!!!
As a Mormon,do you have magic underwear? and can you get your peeps to stop knocking at my door?
But the Catholics who support war should be allowed communion? Killing is killing, in my book. I also found the denying Kerry communion to be political motivated. Not because it’s the “right” of the Catholic church, but because they made such a media circus of it. At that moment I was all for taxing the hell out of them.
No to #1–and I doubt if they’re my peeps at your door–we have very limited missionary placement in this area–confusin’ us again w/ JWs?
LOL! I think he was, Joanne!
mike w,
I’m not particularly religious, so the whole God + politics melding just pisses me off.
again with empty/feigned disgust. It pisses you off so much that you will still vote for Mccain. do us a favor murderboy and spare us. You are full of more shit than a septic tank at a competitve eating contest.
Joanne, I did have the JWs confused with the Joseph Smith vanishing tablets types. Sorry.
Oh that’s OK–it will all work out in the end.
Is that a threat?!? Because Jesus was here in America and I’m p r e t t y darned sure he would frown on you for prejudging me. I found stones in Blackbird Forest that say so. I would show you but, its gonna cost ya.
“So you are pro-choice, Mike W?”
Yes. Regardless of my moral position on the issue I don’t feel that I (or anyone else) has the right to tell a woman what she may/may not do with her body. That and I find it incredibly ridiculous for MEN to be telling women that they’re not free to choose when those men cannot get pregnant.
I am with you Pandora. Why is the Catholic Church talking about denying communion to pro-choice politicians but not pro-war politicians.? The official position of the Catholic Church was against the Iraq War. As long as the church picks and chooses “sins” it is hard to take them seriously as anything other than a political organization, IMO.
“the Roman Catholic church is the only sect of Christianity to refuse a sacred sacrament to all other sects of Christianity.”
But does that make it wrong? (We’re also the only sect with a Pope)
“The Bible was fairly clear on the topic – the only requirements for taking communion were being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and coming to the table repentent and clear of sins.”
But you definition of being repentant and mine are very different and only one of us can be right.
“Now, I may be an idiot, and I’m sure that I am, but that comes from a (inter)national organization directly into public domain in effort to create public policy.”
Right, it does. Now what is wrong with that?
“Now remember, I’m an idiot, but you get my point and being disengenuous makes you what?”
Sorry, when was I disingenuous?
“Every other idiot (excluding you) knows the heads of the church amass profit.”
If this were wikipedia, a citation needed tag would go here.
“Thing is, Tommy, the cool thing about amassing wealth is the ability to affect policy. I think its called lobby. You go on Tommy, whatever you can do to help.”
I’m not really sure where you are going with that one.
“But the Catholics who support war should be allowed communion?”
Probably, and I will explain why.
“Killing is killing, in my book.”
Yes, but murder is murder. Killing is sometimes justified (Just War Doctrine and whatnot) but murder never is. War is sometimes justifiable but abortion never is.
“I also found the denying Kerry communion to be political motivated. Not because it’s the “right” of the Catholic church, but because they made such a media circus of it.”
Hell, shouldn’t we? We made a huge media circus out of the Civil Rights movement when we could – if you believe as strongly as we do about something like this aren’t your obligated to bring attention to it?
“I am with you Pandora. Why is the Catholic Church talking about denying communion to pro-choice politicians but not pro-war politicians.? The official position of the Catholic Church was against the Iraq War. As long as the church picks and chooses “sins” it is hard to take them seriously as anything other than a political organization, IMO.”
1 – The Church said that they thought that from an objective standpoint the war was a bad idea and would cause more harm than good. The Church has yet to say the war was a sin and has yet to prohibit Catholics from participating in it/enabling it. If the Church were to do this (and of course they can’t just do it on a whim, they must provide heavy theological evidence) then Catholics who work to continue the war, be they politicians, soldiers or contractors would face a similar punishment.
To re-cap, the war was a bad idea but not a sin, abortion is a sin.
2 – Plenty of non-profits who have been granted special tax statuses do nothing save try to influence politics.
Hey Tommy, its late and I’m pissed. What’s your point? I say churches should be taxed and you disagree. Or maybe you don’t, no one can tell from your fucking posts. Either way pound sand crusader, I’m crashing.
In my eyes, yes. Having a cute little old guy dressed up does no harm to anyone. Refusing to provide a sacred sacrament, and only one of two specifically directed by Christ, to your fellow Christians… that could potentially cause great harm, if only from the whole “committing a deadly sin” problem.
“But you definition of being repentant and mine are very different and only one of us can be right.”
Statements like this are pretty much the crux of why I gave up on Catholicism, and with it religion in general.
The idea that “only one of us can be right” is utterly preposterous. While I’m not exactly certain there is a “god,” I am pretty damned certain that if there was, he/she/it would not “create” a whole load of different types of people in different places with different cultures and embedded religious traditions that survive over thousands of years only to one day (let’s say, oh about 2000 years ago) suddenly get bored and decide “I’m tired of all this screwing around, it’s time to show all these fools which religion is the RIGHT one.”
Here’s just one example. Going by the logic that someone’s got to be “right,” what happens to individuals who are members of isolated tribes in the amazon? What, because the mighty christian missionaries didn’t make it there to tell them the “right” thing to do, then when it comes to “salvation” they’re just fucked? How ridiculously arrogant!!!!
Here’s another one. As I recall the pope (or if not the pope the Catholic church in some form) came out and said it was alright to believe in life on other planets. So if that’s the case, are all aliens going to “hell” by default because they haven’t managed to discover christianity? Or does each planet have its own designated alien Jesus? This may sound like I’m just being a jerk – but honestly, I’m trying to reconcile how you could even remotely make sense out of all of it.
So call me crazy, but after years of having it hammered into my head through church and catholic school that catholicism was “right” and everything else was “wrong” – one day around say age 17 I realized I could think logically for myself and started having thoughts like my little rant above.
At this point in my life I don’t bother with any religion because, from a logical standpoint, there’s no way they can all be “right,” and I also find it extremely unlikely that just one is “right” while all the rest are “wrong.” So, when it comes to religion, my present attitude is essentially “ah, fuck it.” It seems to me that following any religion whatsoever, regardless of denomination or ethos, will more than likely just suck up a lot of my time and my money and still leave me with far more questions than answers.
Joe, I think I understand Tommy. Killing American babies is a sin. Killing Iraqi babies… not so much.
You’re right Pandora. That killing thing only applies to some people and not others.
If the communion denying was applied equally, communion would be denied to politicians who are divorced or who support the death penalty. Somehow, it’s always about abortion.
UI, we so have to meet!
go to bed lush
Why are still up blogging? Surely you have hotter things to do.
right….
with a pregnant mrs. hotviti
DMUW,
I didn’t know you knew me so well. 😉
Pandora,
You’ll have to let me know when the next get together is.
I’m going to say this, speaking as a vehement humanist, atheist and proponent of the scientific method.
Both sides of this debate piss me off a little.
The theists–not those here, from what I can tell, but the instigators–have a profound issue with atheism. I’ve seen quite a few polls in which atheists were often the only major demographic that less than 50% of the country would vote for. This is the product of both a misunderstanding of atheism and of a small mind. The latter is obvious–the same “my way or the highway” mentality that goes hand it hand with your average cultural conservative. The former is, surprisingly, the more problematic of the two. People seem to view atheists as antitheists, which is not what the (non)belief system entails. Atheism is nothing more than a lack of belief in god, not necessarily a hostility towards theism.
On the other hand, I take issues with the atheists that have allowed this to happen. Unfortunately, many of us–including some commenters on this thread–are terribly self-righteous and holier than thou (forgive the pun). The type of people who will tell you that the world would be better off without religion. I agree with them that Christians are wrong, that Muslims are wrong, that Hindus and Jews are wrong. I reject the idea of a supernatural force in the universe. However, where I differ with them is their sentiment that Christians et al are not ALLOWED to be wrong. It is no better than the televangelists who warn their followers of the dangers that atheists pose to your family.
Theism is, in my opinion, a falsehood. I remain unapologetic about that. However, the arrogance of my religion (or lack thereof) is, frankly, disturbing. Regardless of how false it is, religion is a personal matter, and until it steps on my toes (for example, in the teaching of creationism in public schools), it’s none of my business. Educate people about atheism. Clear up some misconceptions. But if you’re simply hostile toward them, you’ve become the cause of the problem at hand.
“Hey Tommy, its late and I’m pissed. What’s your point? I say churches should be taxed and you disagree. Or maybe you don’t, no one can tell from your fucking posts. Either way pound sand crusader, I’m crashing.”
I’m assumed the following: “Plenty of non-profits who have been granted special tax statuses do nothing save try to influence politics.” would have made my position very clear. I don’t see what you are confused about
“Refusing to provide a sacred sacrament, and only one of two specifically directed by Christ, to your fellow Christians… that could potentially cause great harm, if only from the whole “committing a deadly sin” problem.”
Explain.
“Statements like this are pretty much the crux of why I gave up on Catholicism, and with it religion in general.”
Its a highly logical statement….Why does it cause you such trouble?
“The idea that “only one of us can be right” is utterly preposterous.”
No, it decidedly is not.
“While I’m not exactly certain there is a “god,” I am pretty damned certain that if there was, he/she/it would not “create” a whole load of different types of people in different places with different cultures and embedded religious traditions that survive over thousands of years only to one day (let’s say, oh about 2000 years ago) suddenly get bored and decide “I’m tired of all this screwing around, it’s time to show all these fools which religion is the RIGHT one.””
Why?
“Going by the logic that someone’s got to be “right,” what happens to individuals who are members of isolated tribes in the amazon? What, because the mighty christian missionaries didn’t make it there to tell them the “right” thing to do, then when it comes to “salvation” they’re just fucked?”
No. Read the Catechism.
“As I recall the pope (or if not the pope the Catholic church in some form) came out and said it was alright to believe in life on other planets. So if that’s the case, are all aliens going to “hell” by default because they haven’t managed to discover christianity?”
No.
“This may sound like I’m just being a jerk – but honestly, I’m trying to reconcile how you could even remotely make sense out of all of it.”
Try harder.
“one day around say age 17 I realized I could think logically for myself and started having thoughts like my little rant above.”
Did you ever bother to talk these thoughts over with a Priest?
“Joe, I think I understand Tommy. Killing American babies is a sin. Killing Iraqi babies… not so much.”
Did you read what I wrote?
“If the communion denying was applied equally, communion would be denied to politicians who are divorced or who support the death penalty. Somehow, it’s always about abortion.”
No, they would not.
“The theists–not those here, from what I can tell, but the instigators–have a profound issue with atheism.”
Of course we do – its because we love you. Catholicism is hands down the greatest thing that has ever happened to me. Wouldn’t a be a prick if I didn’t want you to share in that joy?
“Did you ever bother to talk these thoughts over with a Priest?”
No, Tom, because I had already come to the realization that they’re full of shit. As is every religion, and as are you. The end.
“No, Tom, because I had already come to the realization that they’re full of shit.”
As ever, the self-proclaimed “open-minded” so thoughtlessly writing off a whole class of people. You spend a good deal of time haunting internet blogs, surely your time isn’t so precious as to preclude you from (in your eyes) wasting a bit of it with a Priest?
“and as are you”
Do you know me?
“The end.”
Just a little arrogant there.