QOD
What does distribution of WEALTH mean to you?
I’m so tired of people and their either feigned stupidity or sincere ignorance. I don’t get why people can’t understand a simple concept. I think people seem to get hung up on the term WEALTH and think of it as INCOME. IT IS NOT. They are 2 different things. So when a candidate says spread the wealth around which is the same thing as saying distribute why on earth would people go all apeshit? Why? What is the reason? Why is distributing the WEALTH around a bad thing? Did I miss something with Joe the Knucklehead? Did Obama say distribute income? Did he say he was going to take your income? Did he say he was going to go all commie on your ass and say that you, you as a plumber can make x, and you as a banker can make y?
It is so frustrating to watch these idiots argue for the rich. What the hell have they been reading over the course of the past 8 years, hell 20 years that has shown the current way we spread the wealth works for them? I just don’t get it. I really don’t. CEO’s are making 50,000,000.00 a year. A YEAR and here are idiot unlicensed plumbers that owe taxes, taking UP THE CEO’s cause? WTF? How do these people get swayed so easily? Have they seen a chart of the distribution of WEALTH in this country? Have they taken the time to understand what Wealth is?
It is like they don’t know what a democracy is. They intertwine Capitalism with Democracy as if the 2 are interchangeable. One allows the other to happen and it isn’t capitalism that allows democracy to happen. It is bizzare to me that people go all apeshit over certain taxes, like the capital gains tax. People are so clueless. They just don’t get it. They don’t realize who would benefit from cutting this tax. They don’t grasp the concept that eliminating the “death tax” only helps certain people. GOD why are people so dumb?
The junior Senator from the Great State of Illinois used the word “wealth,” but for the most part, the federal government doesn’t tax wealth; it taxes income and spending. Taxes on wealth (most normally, property taxes) are usually the province of local governments.
But, regardless of whether Mr Obama really meant either wealth or income, both are things which are owned by private citizens; for the wealth or income to be spread around, the power of government would have to be used to seize it from whomever owned it or earned it, to give to those who did not own it or earn it.
Our esteemed host asked:
Because it is theft, that’s why. When you take something that belongs to one person, regardless of your motives, or the nobility of your intentions, it is still theft.
Eliminating the inheritance tax is eliminating theft, that’s why. Why should what you worked for, what you earned, be subject to seizure by the government rather than inherited by your children?
You’re a parent, Don: surely you understand the concept that you are working so that your children will have a better life. Why should the government have the right to decide that, no, you were a little bit too successful, so we’ll just confiscate part of what you built to give to people who did not work as hard or as successfully.
Do people not even understand what taxes are used for anymore? The government takes taxes from a variety of places – wages, income and consumption and uses them to do things like build roads and run schools. Do some people not understand this?
Dans,
Such Bullshit.
Aside from this…
for the most part, the federal government doesn’t tax wealth; it taxes income and spending.
Dana is basically a royalist who wants a permanent ruling class. You peons sit down and shut up. Which is what they did during the Bush years.
Luckily, the country is awaking to the fact that stupidity should not be rewarded (see Randy Smith’s comment in a lower thread) and class mobility is a good thing for a free society.
Thank you Dana, finally a good response. This has been the major issue for me with Obama. I am a small business owner, who has struggled over the years to get to a point where I am happy to say I am turning a profit and have seen my sacrifices pay off. This includes leaving a paying job with another company, going on COBRA, and wondering how long I could continue to do that and support my family. I came from nothing, raised by a single Mom who worked 3 jobs. I have worked my ass off for years to finally see some reward for it. I have employed 15 other people, provided insurance for them and their families if need be and created a wonderful working environment. The taxes are killing us! You tell me why it is fair that I am suppose to pay more taxes under Obama’s plan? Why am I suppose to give my “money” to people that don’t even pay taxes to keep this system running?!
I have increased my philanthropy every year that I have seen success with my company. I will tell you one thing…. if and when my taxes go up things will have to change. I will be forced to lay people off and there will be a few more people out there NOT paying taxes because I will not be able to afford to employ them anymore. I will not be able to help the various charities that we have helped over the last few years because I will assume the government will be taking care of that for me.
I make no apologies for my success and for my wealth. I am proud of what I have accomplished. I am thankful that I am not looking for a hand out or trying to “stick it to the man”. I am from the school of hard work pays off. Sorry some of you have stayed in dead-end jobs or careers because you were too lazy or afraid to take a risk to better your position in life. I have had nor more advantages than many of you. I am not Ivy League or Trust Funded.
I am all for helping my fellow man, but it needs to be fair. You tell me what incentive people will have to get up at 5 AM, commute for an hour each way if 41% of their income is going to the government?
This site acts like the wealthy (over 250K club) had it handed to them. Well we didn’t, we worked our asses off and I get resentful when lazy people want to get a piece of it while doing nothing but complaining about their position in life.
Donsquishy, I just told you why the wealthy get bent out of shape when people like you want to take our money. Go get a fucking job that pays more. Go take some risks and quit blaming the government for your misfortunes. I could have been in your shoes but hard work has allowed me to help my fellow man on my terms. I can handle things as they are but give me a break!
Maybe if you were in my shoes you would have a different point of view.
I can’t fathom where this bullshit comes from. It is like you guys have a bottomless bullshit mine somewhere.
The taxes are killing us!
Right. Have you factored in what all the services you recive would cost if you had to pay for them?
As a small businessman myself I view the the Delaware and National government as a good silent partner in my business.
You, “test” are just a greedy unpatriotic asshole.
If income and wealth inequality in the US were the product of a free market and a fair economic system then I would be for it. The reality is that this whole issue is a red herring…
The people in the US with the greatest political influence are those with the greatest wealth. The have for years been getting favorable decreases in taxation.
The argument that business owners, corporations, and the wealthy should not pay a fair amount in taxes is absurd. I agree that excessive taxation results in restricted economic growth, but less so than for people at lower income levels (where the marginal propensity to spend an additional dollar of income is much higher) and the deficits that result from spending and not taxing are also a drag on growth.
Taxation is a part of fiscal policy, and considering the situation we are in now you have to be a complete ideologue to act like this is a redistribution of wealth a ‘la Marx… it is a stupid argument. Insanely stupid. Like never read any economics and don’t actually understand what Socialism really is stupid.
We can talk about the ‘fair share’ they already pay, but frankly it is not. If 1% of the US makes 20% of the income (which they do today and not coincidentally the last time this happened was 1929) then they get 1/5 of the economic benefit of the entire economic system. I assure you, they pay nowhere near 1/5 of the taxes. Their income from investments depend on the roads we drive on, the police who protect their property rights, the courts that keep contracts enforceable, the agencies that provide support and regulation, and the military that protects the whole nation. They do not only personally benefit from these things, the businesses they own, the companies they invest in, and everything in their economic sphere benefits from these services.
To diminish the additional value reaped by the highest income people in the United States from these shared services is to completely miss the point of a progressive tax system and is to ignore the warnings of people like Adam Smith (I guess he was a big socialist too?).
Income inequality is bad for democracy.
Income inequality is bad for an economy.
Do we redistribute wealth? No.
Do we seek fiscal and tax policies to foster growth of everyone’s real dollar incomes? Yes.
May that include repealing financially irresponsible tax cuts with no matching decrease in spending? Yes… and if we are going into a severe recession would transferring that savings to a broad cross section of people in the economy who have a high likelihood of spending the money rather than holding it make sense? Yup…
That said, fuck both Obama and McCain…. either one will be too busy passing money to their special interests… the time to fix this was before the whole house of cards came down… not after… both parties are responsible for this… both will rob us blind…
Oh… and Dana…
Great job repeating talking points… must be nice to not have to think about anything…
if and when my taxes go up things will have to change. I will be forced to lay people off
Bring it on. If you can’t figure out how to run a business while paying your share of taxes then to hell with you, let a smarter businessman figure it out and hire your best people and sell to all your customers instead.
and there will be a few more people out there NOT paying taxes because I will not be able to afford to employ them anymore.
Bullshit… what kind of God complex do you have? Your people will work somewhere else and pay their taxes.
Not Brian, all good points.
Jason330, stupid sounding, as usual. You definitely want to “stick it to the man” don’t you? How can I be considered unpatriotic because I don’t want my taxes to go up? I am not saying I want to see the middle class go up either. But why should theirs go down and ours go up? How is that fair?
Again, increase my taxes and I will be forced to lay people off. How will that benefit society? I am not greedy. People who know me and my family would never describe us as greedy. So Jason330 watch your personal attacks when all I am is an anonymous blogger trying to help you see another side.
It will be interesting if Obama wins and you are still stuck in your same position. Who will you blame then?
But why should theirs go down and ours go up? How is that fair?
It is fair because you’ve been getting a free ride.
You sure come off as a greedy unpatriotic asshole, so maybe if you don’t think of yourself in those terms you should do some soul searching.
The fact is rich Republicans like yourself think that every dime of your tax money goes to support welfare queens. It doesn’t. Does your business use roads? Do you get electricity and police protection? Do the people you hire all come out of private schools? We are at war you now. Maybe we should try paying for it instead of making our grandchildren foot the bill.
You’ve been duped. time to smell the coffee. Be an American for a change – not simply a Republican.
“your share of taxes”
What about when “your share of taxes” goes over 50%? Over 60%? Over 70%?
What’s the incentive for people to take risks?
“let a smarter businessman figure it out and hire your best people and sell to all your customers instead. ”
They already do. They’re called big box stores, chain restaurants and national retailers.
And it’s people like you who help them contribute to the homogenization of America with colossally stupid opinions like the ones you just shared.
I make no apologies for being rich – I love it. And one day if you work as hard and intelligently as I have you too may be able to enjoy the finer things in life instead of sitting around in your dead end job angry all day. You ass. Quit looking for a hand out and get to work!! Go on now -get to work!!! Hahahahaha.
You tell me why it is fair that I am suppose to pay more taxes under Obama’s plan?
Are you SURE you would pay more taxes? I really don’t believe you understand Obama’s proposal. Here is the debunking of that particular claim:
factcheck.org/elections-2008/mccains_small-business_bunk.html
But let’s take your statement at face value:
We know that you are paying yourself at least $250K from your 15-person company. We know this because if you paid yourself less than $250K, you would not be subject to any tax increase. We don’t know how much more, but let’s say it’s $250K.
Obama is proposing to let the Bush tax cuts expire, which would let the top marginal rate go up from 35% to 39.6%. That is a marginal rate, which means for most of your income your tax rate would not change at all.
Meanwhile, I am going to go way out on a limb and say you have voted Republican in the last few elections. And your elected representatives bought a lot of stuff and spent a lot of money in your name. By supporting the GOP economic philosophy, you co-signed those loans.
We don’t know what you do but it is safe to say that a lot of that borrowed money passed through other hands and ended up in your pocket via your customers. That is your success story.
So now it is time to pay back your share of the debt that allowed you to become so successful. We are talking about a small rate increase on the top marginal part of your income: Is that WTF you are complaining about?
A small tax increase to pay back the orgy of spending that you gorged on?
(and I didn’t even get into Obama’s tax CUTS that you may benefit from directly or indirectly)
“It is fair because you’ve been getting a free ride. ”
Who’s been getting a free ride? I haven’t.
once again people like test conflate income with wealth. I love it….
FSP –
So the huge tax breaks these firms get through their political influence have NOTHING to do with their advantage over small business owners?
If they are inherently more efficient why does WalMart get incentives to go into nearly every place they go (can’t be by influencing politicians, huh?).
This is not all about Free Market capitalism… small businesses are hurt by their inability to match the political power of the big guys and the tax breaks and incentives they get (which are counter intuitive if they are supposed to be more efficient).
Both parties and crony capitalism are to blame for that…
What about when “your share of taxes” goes over 50%? Over 60%? Over 70%?
Which is in no danger of happening.
But does nicely avoid the elephant in the room of actually paying for the government you’ve been supporting. Halliburton and Blackwater need to have their thievery paid for some way or another. And running up the national credit cards for this crap is untenable, as we can already see.
What about when “your share of taxes” goes over 50%? Over 60%? Over 70%?
Then maybe the voters will be ready for you. Until then, you are simply suffering from Obama Derangement Syndrome.
I don’t see anything wrong with setting the top rate back to where it was the last time the economy was healthy.
We are talking about a small increase in the top marginal rate, one which is necessary to pay back our debts and restore fiscal prudence.
In the history of taxation, this is simply a technical adjustment, not some giant leap to socialism.
And what happens when Obama’s “plan” isn’t enough?
I’ll tell you. His initial plan (which is $187,500 and above according to Krugman) becomes $150,000, then $100,000.
“I don’t see anything wrong with setting the top rate back to where it was the last time the economy was healthy.
We are talking about a small increase in the top marginal rate, one which is necessary to pay back our debts and restore fiscal prudence. ”
That was not the tenor of your initial statement.
Agree 100% with NB in #16.
And I’ve said many times that the taxes got raised when the checks got written. It’s all a matter of when they get raised. So I don’t necessarily oppose Obama’s tax plan.
But I don’t see any inclination on his part to hold down spending. Increased taxes and increased spending will not put us in a better position.
And we worked to end welfare during the Clinton years. Why bring it back?
I’ll tell you. His initial plan (which is $187,500 and above according to Krugman) becomes $150,000, then $100,000.
I don’t believe that, but let’s say it happens – So what? there are elections in four more years. We can always elect another trickle-downer to borrow all the rest of the money left in the world and make everything OK again.
But I don’t see any inclination on his part to hold down spending. Increased taxes and increased spending will not put us in a better position.
No, but increased taxes and restrained spending will.
I think Obama has been honest in saying he knows we won’t be able to implement all of his plans. Instead, he has stated his priorities for how to spend, which align with mine.
And we worked to end welfare during the Clinton years. Why bring it back?
There is no welfare proposal, unless you are referring to expansion of EITC, in which case you would have a small point, but not a big enough point to sink Obama’s plan.
I am not saying I want to see the middle class go up either. But why should theirs go down and ours go up? How is that fair?
I bet you raised high holy hell about “fair” when Bush cut rates for the rich more than rates for the middle class! (didn’t you? McCain did…)
Again, increase my taxes and I will be forced to lay people off. How will that benefit society?
1. We will begin to reduce the deficit.
2. Your employees will work for someone else and pay taxes.
3. You will have learned a valuable lesson about accountability and foresight.
Not to mention, I don’t believe for one ninute that Obama’s proposed tax increases will cause you to lay people off. What a crock.
Paygo is a real and proven process for reducing or at least managing spending so you aren’t racking up new deficits and debt.
As for spending, BushCo is leaving us with a recession which will evidently be long and brutal. Circumstances where even the President of this place is on record as noting that now is NOT the best time for budget balancing measures. And you have no idea how much I’d like for that to be wrong.
Fixing this mess has now even left conservative budget watchers getting their Keynesian dance on.
sorry test,
it’s for the good of the whole country. Sorry if you have to be the victim and weren’t able to position yourself for the time when reality snapped your income back to earth.
I liken it to war. I’m sure you supported the multiple wars we are in right?
Well, you just happen to be, what do they call it? a casualty of war? Sorry buddy, shit happens, I don’t know what to tell you. Unfortunately, you are one of the innocent people that get’s fucked.
what a shame, but’s it’s for a good cause, so I’m sure you will support it. It will make your country stronger. After all, in the end, this isn’t about you and the heirs to your thrown.
it is about your country…
Why stop at redistributing wealth? I’m a school teacher. Why don’t I go into my classroom tomorrow and tell all the kids that are getting A’s that they need to give some of that to their peers who are getting C’s, D’s and F’s. I’m sure that my kids who are struggling will welcome an A. I am sure that my students who have worked hard for those A’s wouldn’t mind spreading the wealth.
Susan is exactly the kind of clueless middle class Republican that gets nothing in return for her votes that I simply don’t get.
It is as if they get off on being duped and abused. Pitiful.
yes susan, because that makes complete sense.
hey everybody!
if you work really hard you will be fine and wealthy. Those that aren’t wealthy and rich, they didn’t work hard…
Susan – a lot of schools DO have the A students helping the others. It helps the whole school achieve more.
When did taxes become welfare? Are some people really that brainwashed? Someone show a person who pays no tax. There are no people like that. Sales tax is also a tax. Everyone pays taxes and taxes pay for services.
UI,
Commenters here want us to be a tax paradise like Hati. Because Belgium and Sweden are hell on earth.
I am not saying that those who struggle don’t deserve a hand-up. My A students work with my struggling students and we have seen much progress from this program for all students. I am saying that those who fool around and don’t do their homework or study do not deserve a hand-out.
Why don’t people deserve a hand out? Because you say so? Because you get to judge who does and doesn’t?
That kid goofing off is an idiot and doesn’t deserve a hand out right?
Never mind the fact he could be abused? Could have a learning disability, could have something wrong with him that you in your zest to NOT want to reward him for being a fuck up missed.
So yep, those kids not getting A’s in your class are a great example of the distribution of wealth analogy you just made.
In response to Test’s first post — you can’t afford another $90/year in taxes if you make over $250,000? ?? You make it sound like your life is destroyed.
My guess is you’re a Republican and had no intention of ever voting for Obama anyway so don’t make it sound like you were ever considering it..
my guess is his accountant is an idiot and he needs a new one
People are so dumb, DV, because you are already dead, and this existence is your own private hell.
Looking forward to my tasty tax cut. F*** the rich! Ha ha ha!
Test cracks me up – talk about delusions of grandeur! Given the way the economy is going he may not even own a business – taxes or no taxes – by the time it’s over. And “wealth” does not have to lay off an employee – even the cook! “Wealth” existed during the Great Depression and wealth will exist through whatever this economy delivers.
Thank God for that Pandora. I know Jason330 and Donwhatever would love to see me fall on my ass within the next four years but it won’t happen.
I have been very conservative every step of the way – never living beyond my means. If anything, living way under it. I live in the first house I bought over 15 years ago, never had credit card debt, paid cash for my car, don’t wear designer. I support several charities, volunteer my time, and thank God every day that I live in America and was able to accomplish all this. I am HAPPY!!!
I will be just fine if Obama wins. I hope he doesn’t, but I will deal with it. My life won’t be different one way or the other, and neither will yours. Obama being President isn’t going to change the way people approach life. Giving handouts will do nothing for the economy or country. There is not a finite amount of money out there to be had. You need to quit giving that impression that only a few have the ability to do so by making them dependent on government.
You are a sad person test, but that’s ok, there are less of you and more of us.
as it should be
It is obvious from the comments here that liberals do not understand economics; if they did, they’d be conservatives!
anon wrote:
And just what do his employees do when he goes broke and lays them all off? What guarantee do they have that a smarter businessman will pick them all up?
One fact that nobody seems to appreciate is that eighty percent of Americans with jobs work for the private sector; whatever hurts businesses hurts working people. You want to stick it to the man? Just remember what runs downhill!
Your understanding of business and taxation is laughable. Y’all want to raise taxes on businesses? Well, businesses do their very best to pass those taxes on to the end customer; if they didn’t, they’d go broke. So, when you buy a gallon of milk at the Acme grocery in Lantana Square Shopping Center in Hockessin, you are paying the diesel fuel taxes of the guy who hauled the milk from the dairy to the dairy processor, the diesel fuel taxes of the guy who hauled it from the dairy processor to the grocery store, the income and sales and gross receipts and Social Security and all of the other taxes on everyone involved in bringing the milk from the cow to your table.
I don’t know test’s business structure; if he’s doing it all without incorporating, he may be paying individual income taxes on his business; if he is incorporated, things work out differently. But the idea that y’all don’t care if people go out of business is madness; do you want people to lose their jobs?
If test’s taxes are increased, he’ll have to try to pass that increase on to his customers; if he can, fine, he stays in business — and the “working people” about whom you are so concerned wind up having to shell out a little bit more for no additional gain. If he can’t pass along the entire increase, either he goes out of business or he makes less money. Now, I understand for the poorly productive, the people who aren’t paid much because they simply aren’t worth very much, the idea that the people who are productive and are compensated well for it making less seems like a good thing, “social justice” if you will. But as y’all try to slay the capitalist beast, you might remember that capitalism is the only economic system in our history which has raised more than a tiny minority above the subsistence level.
Not handouts, test – tax cuts. Unless… you consider what you received from Bush a handout? Don’t change terms. Either they’re tax cuts or handouts. Don’t change the terminology.
I don’t know test’s business structure; if he’s doing it all without incorporating, he may be paying individual income taxes on his business; if he is incorporated, things work out differently. But the idea that y’all don’t care if people go out of business is madness; do you want people to lose their jobs?
crazy right? It’s like those people at are all for war and don’t car about the innocent people that get killed b/c a bomb blew up and just happened to kill them and the target.
Oh well Dana, Shit happens I guess.
BUT, my hunch is, that these guys will be JUST fine.
Don wrote:
A sad person? If test’s comments are accurate, he has been a successful businessman and he employs other people; he has created actual jobs. To me, that makes him a hero, not a villain!
You see Dana that is the problem with you guys. You can’t stand to see someone get a “free pass” no “hand outs” so god forbid when we instill a plan, someone get’s screwed by the government. God forbid that one person ruin for the thousands that could benefit.
Your compassion for the businessman of the US is heartwarming. it is pured bullshit that you actually care for them, but heartwarming in theory none the less. The hardworking business man deserves your compassion, but not for the poor, the tired and the sick.
Well you know what? I’m ok with a few people going out of business b/c of the tax increase. You know why I’m ok with it Dana?
because it won’t fucking happen is why.
X Stryker wrote:
I’d guess that you’ll be looking for a long time; you won’t get a tax cut.
Oh, Barack Hussein Obama has certainly promised a tax cut, for everyone making less than a quarter-mil, but only an utter fool would believe him. He is lying to you, lying through his scummy teeth, and y’all eat it up.
Well, here’s what will really happen. Regardless of whether John McCain or Barack Obama wins, the Congress will simply do nothing, and let the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts expire. Taxes will rise for the high income groups, sure enough, but they’ll rise for everyone else, too. That 10% low bracket? It’ll revert to the 15% it was before the tax cuts. That $1,000 per child tax credit? Back to the $500 it was in 2000. Test’s taxes will rise, and my taxes will go up, which I’m sure will make y’all very happy, but Donviti’s taxes will rise and Pandora’s taxes will go up, and Delaware Dem’s taxes will increase. From the wealthiest of us to the poorest, everyone’s taxes will rise.
They have to rise. Mr Obama has promised something like $200 billion per year of additional spending, and that was before the huge bailout bill.
So by your analogy the CEO of Enron, AIG, Merryl, Countrywide are heroes?
awesome
I’m not voting for Obama b/c of a proposed tax cut.
and if you look to my QOD a few days ago, no one supporting Obama said they were voting for him for a tax cut.
Mr Viti wrote:
Your business acumen is astounding. Really.
OK, just what can happen? If taxes are increased, either businesses will be able to pass on the increases, in part or in whole. If they can pass them on in whole, then they shouldn’t affect the success rate of businesses at all.
But they will affect the prices people have to pay, and even more than you think. If there is a tax increase passed along in the form of higher prices, not only do the consumers have to pay higher prices for the same goods, those who live in states with sales taxes will see the sales tax assessed on the higher price; thus the consumers will pay even more. (Ed Rendell will love it, of course!)
But if they can’t all pass along the entire increase, then some businesses will fail, on the margin. Some businesses are running so close to the edge that just a little bit more in the way of unrecouped costs will push them into failure; that’s simple economics.
And you might be OK with a few people going out of business, but that means people losing their jobs; you do realize that, don’t you?
There is, of course, an undiscussed alternative. I’m not certain, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Mr Obama’s economic plan — assuming that he actually has one, which isn’t a sure thing — depends on inflation. If prices double, the real value of the national debt is halved, roughly speaking, of course. It also means that home mortgage debt falls by half, again, roughly speaking.
But that also means that people’s savings, retirement and otherwise, are trashed, It means that OPEC will change policies, and denominate in euros, which will mean that petroleum will take twice as large a portion of our expenditures.
And just what do his employees do when he goes broke and lays them all off?
They’ll go to work for someone who knows how to make money AND pay his taxes. Those workers weren’t guaranteed employment when they went to work for the businessman who can’t make his margins if he has to pay taxes too; and they aren’t guaranteed employment now. But they will find employment with someone who can survive paying the taxes they owe.
Has anyone noticed that Dana doesn’t think that Obama will deliver tax cuts for the many, but he apparently thinks that McCain can deliver on tax cuts for the few?
Mr Viti wrote:
So, you knew all along that he was lying; for that I’ll give you some credit.
But that credit vanishes due to your blasé acceptance of his deliberate lying to the people.
Cassandra prophesied:
Will they? I don’t know how old you are, but I remember the last days of the Carter Administration, when inflation was above 20% and unemployment above 10%.
How many people being thrown out of work is an appropriate sacrifice to elect The One?
Cassandra wrote:
A statement which is obviously proven false by mine, which was posted 47 minutes earlier:
I don’t think that Mr McCain will be able to produce tax cuts either; I do know that he has promised a lot less federal spending, and that’s a good thing. Nor will he try to push legislation to share either the wealth or the income, and that is a very good thing.
“How many people being thrown out of work is an appropriate sacrifice to elect The One?”
Why do you guys keep acting like the economy is rosy? People are losing their jobs now.
And then this gem… “So, you knew all along that he was lying; for that I’ll give you some credit. But that credit vanishes due to your blasé acceptance of his deliberate lying to the people.”
No one accused Obama of lying but you. DV said that no one listed taxes as their reason(s) for supporting Obama. Quite a difference.
And you’ll be happy to know that Barack Hussein Obama was in our Hallowe’en parade today! T’was truly frightening!
Pandora: Straight out, do you believe that Barack Obama is telling the truth about his proposed tax cuts? I’ll say, straight out, that he’s lying through his scummy teeth!
But that credit vanishes due to your blasé acceptance of his deliberate lying to the people.
you are still talking about Obama on this one?
Keep shilling for the rich Dana. Without guys like you, there’d be no GOP
I do know that he has promised a lot less federal spending, and that’s a good thing.
No, actually, he hasn’t. His tax cut regime is much mor expensive than Obama’s. And while talking about freezing spending on everything but Defense, he is telling every interest group he is speaking to that they will be exempt. The other day in Florida, he promised them new funds for NASA and Palin was the other day promising new funds for special needs kids (while embarrassing herself about scientific research). McCain wants to buy all of the upside down mortgages — at their Book Value, which is a spectacularly bad idea. Bottom line, your boy is talking out of both sides of his mouth on this spending thing.
pwned!
If you can’t pay your taxes and make your margins you have no business being in business. Which is why I am a fan of eliminating most of the business tax credits. You can do this thing, or you can’t, and if you need the government to support you then you can’t.
And I don’t know if you are following the financial news, but your President is going to be leaving office with an unemployment figure moving towards 10% and who knows what inflation will be. So apparently all of the taxes he cut (and left a giant budget deficit with) not only produced a fairly anemic (and highly leveraged) economic growth over the past 8 years, but also just blew up real good. We’re looking at the mother of all recessions that certainly wasn’t avoided by tax cuts.
but Obama is lying…but, but, but
Dana and Test – Both of you have made excellent points. Thank you for your well-articulated thoughts. That said, you would do well not to try to argue common sense issues with emotion-driven voters. It is an exercise in futility that ultimately results in little more than personal attacks.
I have a few questions for the Obama supporters who appear to be intimately familiar with the details of his tax/spending plan. June’s comment above indicated that a person making $250,000/year would see an increase of $90/year in taxes:
“In response to Test’s first post — you can’t afford another $90/year in taxes if you make over $250,000?”
Is that an accurate figure? If so, how much does Obama plan to net from his tax increases? Will it even begin to put a dent in the cost of the social programs and the tax cuts he has promised? Speaking of the tax cuts, does anyone know how much of a tax cut 95% of the country can expect to receive? If it’s $90/year, is it even ethical to claim it as some kind of a benefit?
Not looking for an argument, just wondering if anyone has actually looked at the actual numbers. I’m no math whiz, but any plan that promises everything to everyone just seems a little too good to be true. If Obama is counting on the Iraq war savings covering the bulk of the expenses, he’s not considering a few things:
1) Even if the war ended tomorrow, there would still be significant expense involved with keeping the country afloat as we leave.
2) Those funds were not exactly ‘available’ when the war started. In fact, the bulk of our deficit can be attributed to the war. Does he not plan to address the deficit at all?
3) He talks quite a bit about the importance of focusing on the war in Afghanistan (I agree, btw). Doesn’t it stand to reason that funds that were allocated for the Iraq war would be redirected to Afghanistan (at least in part)?
Again, I was always a bigger fan of reading/writing than math, so I may be missing something very obvious, but it just doesn’t add up for me. I’m not being snarky; I’m serious.
‘Why do you guys keep acting like the economy is rosy? People are losing their jobs now.’
Pandora – I would venture to say that the guy who continues to promise to follow through with universal health care, tuition help and tax cuts in the face of a $700-billion bailout/recovery package is the one acting like the economy is rosy.
The Obama is scary, look what he’ll do to our income is complete crap. It assumes our economy isn’t in the crapper – like he’s going to be the one to ruin it. That’s worth a big ol’ laugh out loud.
The Tax Policy Center comparison of the Candidate’s Tax Plans They’ve been updating this all summer, and includes calculations of costs and the impacts to the Federal debt.
Summary Matrix of the Candidate’s policies ONLY no analysis of budget impact included.
We are currently spending about 16 Billion per month on Iraq and Afghanistan — of that about 12 billion per month is Iraq. You can send a brigade or two to Afghanistan and bring all of the combat troops home and you are still not spending (eventually) a ton of money. Keeping Iraq afloat needs to be done judiciously, and some troops will remain on a training and Green Zone basis, but they are a country with prodigious oil reserves and they will survive.
We don’t necessary get extra money in the checking account when most of the Iraq combat troops are gone, but we do stop the borrowing of a good bit of it and NOT adding to the debt is the second best thing to putting you money into some kind of savings.
the guy who continues to promise to follow through with universal health care, tuition help and tax cuts in the face of a $700-billion bailout/recovery package
He’s pretty clear recently that the economy may change his plans, but he hasn’t said what those changes might be. But if the recession is of the magnitude that folks think it will be, there will be spending (tax cuts)to stimulate jobs and to stimulate some consumer spending.
why do you engage this asshat for god’s sake. as much blogging as she has done she should know all the answers to the questions she has asked already times 10.
“Not handouts, test – tax cuts. Unless… you consider what you received from Bush a handout? Don’t change terms. Either they’re tax cuts or handouts. Don’t change the terminology.”
Tax cuts are reductions of the tax rate one pays. “Handouts” I assume would refer to increased refundable tax credits to people who don’t pay any taxes at all.
Tax simplification is infinitely better than tax cuts.
Hey Duminique, in your own words, speaking about the choice between Obama and Mcinsane:
“…what does it matter? The only thing that’s really going to change is the name of the president.”
Why do you waste so many words here trying to discuss anything when you have already won the Stupid Thought of the Year award that makes any other utterance of yours even more ridiculous?
‘why do you engage this asshat for god’s sake.’
Thank you, DV, for proving my point about emotion-driven voters. BTW, if you’re really serious about running for office, you might want to try control your emotions online. You don’t exactly come across as a person serious about improving society when you act like an adolescent boy incapable of civil discourse. Just sayin.
At least he has something intelligent to say.
uh sure Dom, your an asshat and I stand by my words and won’t be afraid to use them in public either.
I don’t come accross as a racist or a bigot so I will take being ’emotional” over that any day.
Thank you, DV, for proving my point about emotion-driven voters.
not even sure how calling you an asshat makes your point. You don’t get to come over here and try to act like you want to engage in some serious policy questions as you pick and choose and expect to be treated civily.
You blew that a long time ago as far as I’m concerned. You are nothing more than a troll. A female version of Mike W.
You are beyond learning, you have to be spoon fed how to look up facts and when you are presented with facts you ignore them and keep using your same republican talking points over and over.
you are an asshat Dominique and not a very bright one at that.
Donviti 2008!!!!
Gee, as long as you’re using the possessive ‘your’ in place of the contraction ‘you’re’ and spelling ‘across’ with two c’s and ‘civilly’ with one l, I’m not going to be too concerned with whether you think I’m terribly bright.
Good luck with your campaign. Let me know if you want any help with proofreading your lit.
“CEO’s are making 50,000,000.00 a year.”
Good for them.
More Classic Duminique:
I like McCain and I am fascinated by Palin…
By the way, where is Mike W.?
I see that several people here have made the point that not paying taxes (or at least more taxes) is unpatriotic. If so, why do we have 42% of the electorate not paying taxes? Are they similarly unpatriotic or is that reserved for some income level?
I object to taxes because I object to that which it is spent on. There are certainly things that are good and necessary but there is plenty of waste fraud and abuse. The pork laden bailout bill is a prime example.
If Obama plans to spread wealth how is he going to do that if not by giving money to certain people? Where is that money going to come from?
This story made for some interesting conversation in my class today. I asked my students if it was okay with them if I took A’s from students and gave them to the students earning lesser grades, thus giving everyone in the class a B- average. The uproar against this idea was unbelievable. Only one student in the class thought it was okay to do and that student has a B average. Even my 10- year old students are smarter than to think that giving hand-outs is a good thing.
And to Donsquishy, I realize that some of my students have reasons why they can’t perform as well as others. I understand that these students need a hand-up, and I work to give them that. I treat all my students with respect.
By the way, where is Mike W.?
Do NOT say that three times!
Remember this comment at #19 above?
“FSP // Oct 26, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Crazy, right?
Susan,
Ask your class if they think that it would be O.K. to give certain students in your class A’s if they brought you an apple every day (campaign contributors) or helped you grade the exams (lobbyists) or who’s parents were going to give you a job in the summer for doing mostly nothing (special interests).
Tell them everybody else would get a “D” unless they purchased and gave the apples for free to the “A” students to give to the teacher. If they did that, they would get “C’s” assuming that they passed the course requirements.
Oh, and the “A” students don’t even have to do the work, and the only persons that can get “B’s” are “C” students recommended by an “A” student.
Dave, he’s still using 95%. So given these times, maybe 200k is the new salary ceiling of that percentage.
BTW – The Corner is shit.
“Dave, he’s still using 95%.”
VC — 95%? How’s he going to cut taxes for the 40% of that group who don’t pay taxes NOW?
What do you mean not paying taxes?
Unless the only tax in your world is income tax.
I guess that 8% taken out of my check for SS and Medicare doesn’t count.
Quit with the bullshit word-twisting. Plus the cut is for workers, not all Americans, you dope.