Bill Ayers on Obama
Fresh Air’s Terry Gross interviews Bill Ayers on his relationship with President-Elect Obama, the McCain/Palin campaign, the history of the Weather Underground and his story.
Tags: 2008 Presidential
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Off the subject a bit. But a grand Jury in all states TEXAS has indited the Vice President and former United States Attorney Gonzales on criminal charges. having to do with torture and investing in same
That indictment is probably not gonna hold up, given the nature of the outgoing county AG who prosecuted it.
TPM agrees with you X. Looks like nothing more than a headline – a Good headline, but, alas, just a headline.
I listened to part of that interview and I was struck about how self-serving Ayers came across. I don’t think he’s being honest about his intentions in regards to bombing and he justifies it with his opposition to the war in Vietnam. Two wrongs don’t make a right and what Ayers and WU did had no effect at getting the outcome he desired.
UI,
Every great non-violent movement succeeded only because it had some crazy violent fanatics in the wings that were gonna step-in and effectively cause mayhem if it did not.
WU were some of those. I don’t know that you can say it had no effect at getting the outcome he desired.
They certainly didn’t stop the war or make a difference to US nuclear ambitions, and were, in fact, quite the sideshow to getting any of that accomplished.
Anonone
name the violant acts that were committed by Gandhi and Dr, Kings followers
Not their followers, TT. I am speaking of the militants in the background. In both India during Gandhi and in the United States during King, there were underground movements advocating violent means (such as the Black Panthers in the U.S. ) to achieve the ends that Gandhi and King were advocating, respectively.
CM, can anyone really measure what effect or not the WU had on stopping the war? I can’t. All I am pointing out is that successful social change movements usually have violence in the fringes. And that violence is often the impetus for the ruling power to negotiate.
As an advocate of non-violence, I find this very sad but true. Particularly because non-violent social action seems to have lost its effectiveness internationally.
The fact that they were on the “fringes” tells you what effect they had — which, in the Nixon-era pretty much served as the excuse to try to demonize and marginalize all of the groups together to make the entire Stop the War messaging something of a freak show. The WU provided no impetus to anything and hurt people along the way.
A1, your point, I guess, is that having a fringe movement may make dealing with a more level-headed, non-violent leader/movement more palatable.
The model would be the IRA and Sinn Féin. I’m not saying I agree, but there is an argument to be made about it.
Personally, I consider myself as the DelawareLiberal Sinn Féin to the Donviti IRA.
Black Panthers is to King as the WU is to Anti-war movement?
I get the point; they don’t have to be in cahoots…
….they just have to be fighting for the same outcome.
Whether the WU had any effect on ending the war is not the point. When I, and the others in the national group I take action with, risk arrest and get arrested, we know it will have no effect on the war. We do it because we have to do something against all the killing and lies. It’s a moral issue. I have to do it because I have to take the next step besides sitting around and complaining about the war. That’s how the WU felt, I’m sure. They just expressed their protest in a more violent manner.
I heard Bill A. say that nonviolent direct action is the way to go, and that’s what we do, even though no one pays any attention because there aren’t enough of us.
I’m not condoning what they did but the only people they hurt were their own when a bomb went off. They had no intentioin of doing bodily harm to anyone. And he said he’s sorry they didn’t do more — he didn’t mean he’s sorry they didn’t bomb more — he’s sorry they didn’t do more to stop the war in general.
June, you are an American hero. No, you are a hero for all the world.
Thank you.
The Weather Underground showed which way the wind was blowing.
June
you appear to be a mind reader stating that they did not intend to harm anyone. once you light the fuse you have given up all control.
The Weather Underground showed which way the wind was blowing.
As did the non-violent protesters. The non-violent ones didn’t hurt anyone though.
I am more of a Ghandi guy than a Che guy… but if you listen to Ayers words without prejudice you may find he had a real point.
Upwards of 1 million people were killed in Vietnam. People were bombed, the economy was in tatters, and it may not fit the definition we have attached to genocide, but at the end of the day killing a million (or with willful neglect creating the conditions) is still killing a million people.
I believe that what the US government did in that war was a crime against humanity. If someone else believed that and was there (I was personally not born until 1972) it would be morally incorrect not to act. If you felt that way about the war and watched the non-violent protest movement (which became ineffective as it became as it turned into a cultural movement) not gaining traction quickly enough to stop the killing, what would your moral threshold as a angry 20-something be?
I am not saying what he did was right, or that his explanation is not self-serving, but the activist principles he discussed at the end of the interview were right on (whether he really believes them or not).
How many of you would be as dismissive of a German trying to draw attention to the Holocaust? How many would have seen a Serb acting to draw attention to the killings in Bosnia as an inexcusable self-serving misguided political movement?
Just saying…
The point would be that in a functioning Democracy (which was true for us during Vietnam) there are abundant ways to make yourself heard with that government and with citizens without hurting people or destroying other people’s property.
The German democracy was certainly not working (at leave for the objects of the Holocaust) and not working in Bosnia for the Serbs. Self-defense is not the same as violence in the service of protests.
I respectfully disagree Cassandra.
Who was the president who was going to get us out of there?
What was the Justice Department doing at that time? Keeping files on peaceful protesters and trying to undermine their free speech rights and freedom of assembly.
Was the media seriously examining the civilian deaths? Was the functioning democracy being honest and transparent? And even if it was, if 51% of the people believed exterminating peasants like they were rodents was moral does that make it acceptable?
As far as the parallels to Germany and Serbia/Bosnia, in both cases the leaders had far more popular support than our presidents had when the violence started.
We all wear chains, it is a question of how obvious they are.
There is a right and wrong, however we justify our actions.
Brian, nice posts
Cassandra_m,
I don’t think we had a functioning democracy. Consider:
Kennedy: Assassinated
Wallace: Shot
King: Assassinated
Nixon: Burglarizing and wiretapping, obstruction of justice. Secret illegal wars
War protesters and Civil Rights Workers: Beaten, killed, jailed – were you around for Kent State?
I am not trying to justify the Weather Underground – I am just trying to give you (or remind you) of the state of the country and government.
“Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
We’re finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drumming
Four dead in Ohio.”
I’m with anonone (surprisingly). As the old Chris Rock skit sorta goes (referring to OJ Simpson): “I don’t condone what OJ (Weather Underground) did, but I can understand!”
Kent State ended the Vietnam era peace movement. My youngest daughter was named Allison Krauss in memory of Allison Krauss killed at Kent State.
The movement fell apart when we realized they “will shoot you” for your beliefs. Allison Krauss who was killed that day was not even protesting but walking on grounds in between classes.
It is easy to romanticize violence in the service of a thing — and as long as there is the possibility of changing your government at the ballot box you certainly do have a functioning democracy. You are your government — the people in DC are supposed to represent you. And do not doubt that Vietnam had a great many supporters in its day. Certainly the government at the time had its fair share of corruption and folks who had an investment in Vietnam continuing, but the fact that Nixon was a crook, and crazies were assassinating our leaders doesn’t exactly justify hurting other people or their property. And nothing happening here was remotely like the situations that people had to live with in Nazi Germany or Serbia.
But I guess that non-violence (especially here, where changing your government is not impossible) is never going to be as compelling as the romance of storming the gates.