Unicorns, Ponies, Rainbows, Oh My
From our beginnings in the 18th century, the United States of America has been the underdog in the international scene. Though our underdog status has left us long ago, the American people have a penchant for rooting for the underdog that is exemplified in rooting for sports teams and characters in Hollywood movies. Some Americas even latch on to underdogs in the political arena in hopes to accomplish items in their civic and economic agenda. We have seen the far left shouting from the rooftops that health care reform is not going far enough. They site their hero Representative Dennis Kucinich as the underdog who can lead them to salvation. But this is just not the case.
Moulitsas [of DailyKos] argues that the congressman hasn’t accomplished anything at all, and — though I know I’m going to get slammed for saying this — I have to agree. Sure, it’s good to see a politician standing up for his beliefs and fighting for a point of view that might not otherwise be represented. But there are ways to do that and simultaneously be an effective legislator. Kucinich simply isn’t, and he’s never really tried hard to be. (You could also argue — I would — that the way he goes about things makes him pretty ineffective as a spokesman for his ideals.)
In fact, Kucinich has been a congressman since 1997 and only 3 pieces of legislation he has sponsored have become law. Wowsa. Simply put, you can’t call yourself a progressive if you move nothing forward. If I were a Republican, Kucinich would be my favorite Democrat Congressman — that’s how ineffective he is.
Tags: Kucinich, Progressives
I think only 4 pieces of legislation have even made it out of committee. We make fun of conservatives for being dupes of the Republicans. Let’s not be the same things. Just because Kucinich says things we like, that doesn’t mean he is aiding us at all. The other day, one of the anons said that Kucinich plays the role of a “conscience.” Well, I don’t need another conscience. I’ve already got one, thanks very much. I need someone who gets stuff done. The problem is that some progressives are just too pure to govern. Governing means that sometimes *gulp* you have to compromise.
For an example of an effective progressive legislator look at someone like Karen Peterson in Delaware or Bernie Sanders in the Senate. You can be both effective and progressive at the same time.
You and others at Delaware Liberal who ridicule and deride those of us who recognize that this bill is not real health care reform are acting just like those who railroaded America to war in Iraq in 2002, treating us like “dirty fucking hippies” because we’re willing to point out the lies instead of nodding our heads up and down at whatever the President says.
To ridicule Dennis Kucinich like Kos did because he hasn’t passed many bills is just stupid. I don’t agree with everything he says or does, but at least he fights and speaks out for liberal causes. Any Congressman who advocates for a Department of Peace is alright with me.
But, continue nodding your heads up and down at whatever lie Obomba is telling today about HCR and his other broken promises while you ridicule those who would demand something better. Then sing the praises of all the corporate sell-outs and war-mongers for the number of bills that they have passed, as if that is some kind of measure of righteousness.
There’s also another solid reason for Republicans to latch onto Kucinich. If they adopt him, they have another wife to throw into their Hot Chick Arsenal. And we all know how important that is to conservatives.
But seriously, you’re right. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with being an idealistic legislator. I’m glad there are a few real progressives in Congress. But there’s a difference between starting your negotiating towards the fringe, and never moving away from it. Sometimes you have to content yourself with the most progressive/conservative bill you can get, and not get stuck holding out for the perfect one. Save that for the likes of Jane Hamsher.
Where to start . . .
1. Anonone complains about being ridiculed but then he calls the President, Obomba as he is wont to do.
2. Comparing HCR legislation to Iraq is not funny at all. HCR will save lives, Iraq has done the opposite.
3. Passing legislation is not a “measure of righteousness”, it’s a measure of governing. Yes, to point out that anonone’s emperor is not wearing any clothes is a valid point.
4. Every year since 2001, Kucinich introduces his Dept. of Peace bill. Every year nothing happens.
5. By his self-imposed exile from the political playing field, Kucinich cannot and should not be considered a progressive. Progressives get things done.
Kucinich is entitled to his beliefs, and I agree with a lot of them. That said if he has no way of turning his beliefs into a reality…
I always enjoy watching Kucinich in debates – he keeps everyone honest, and that’s useful. But, not giving an inch on anything is the reason why I breathe a sigh of relief every time he drops out of the Presidential race.
When it comes to HCR… Kucinich has his ideals but has laid out no plan on how to achieve them – and that’s my problem. Like I’ve said before, we all agree on the endgame when it comes to HCR, it’s how we get there that’s open for debate.
Dennis Kucinich = Progressive Idealist
Bernie Sanders = Progressive Legislator
With a chamber of the first, you’ll get a lot of good ideas. With a chamber of the second, you’ll get a lot of good laws.
Adding:
6. The only thing that A1 is being victimized by is his own purity trolling.
And much like Kucinich — my way or the highway isn’t exactly a path to effectiveness, especially when you start well off of most people’s pages. While I wish I lived in a world where a Department of Peace was something desirable and effective, Kucinich (nor any of his fans) have done much towards making a case for governing that way.
Funny how Kucinich’s HCR position has caused centrist Dems to mount a generalized attack on everything from nonrelated legislation to his courtship of his wife. Fling anything at hem to distract from his very cogent and very Democratic critique of the HCR bill. I guess it is painful to be reminded you aren’t living up to your own values (hey, don’t we have a word for that?)
Everything his critics are saying about Kucinich is true. But when he’s right, he’s right. And he’s right about HCR.
There is a strong political case that Dems should gild the turd and unify around the HCR bill. Fine, but admit it is a turd. Don’t try to make Dennis say it is a gold ingot.
No one is asking Kucinich to claim that there is anything perfect about HCR, because it isn’t. It will be better than what lots of people have NOW and it is dishonest on every front to claim otherwise. Especially when that claim is rooted in Single Payer, which was last on the table when Truman proposed it.
And really, I don’t see so much of an attack as it is a reminder that Dennis Kucinich while a principled guy (and even then principled in ways that keep up his outsider cred) is not much of a leader. You can tell from his track record that is true.
We have dozens of Democrats who oppose HCR from the right; why not send a little hate their way instead? Why waste time on the one guy opposing it from the left?
Where to start is right.
1) How many kids in Afghanistan has the U.S. killed since President Obomba escalated the war? What’s the mission? Who and what are we fighting for? When is Gitmo closing? Why aren’t the war crimes of the last administration being prosecuted? The name “Obomba” fits and that is why I use it.
2) Real HCR will save lives. This bill will make actual health care unaffordable for many as they won’t be able to pay for the high deductibles after paying for insurance company profits. How many people that can’t afford health insurance today are going to be able to afford to spend a month’s salary (8%) to buy health insurance and also afford food, housing, transportation, and going to the Doctor?
3) Passing bad legislation is not a measure of governing. This HCR is bad legislation.
4) How long did Kennedy try to get HCR? How many years did nothing happen?
5) Passing legislation is not the only measure of getting things done. Being a vote against bad legislation is also “getting things done.”
Shorter Nemski: “If you’re not sure that you can accomplish anything, don’t even try”
People who think like you do in this post are the same people who made “Dean’s scream” more important than his message.
Single Payer, which was last on the table when Truman proposed it.
A public option was on the table last September.
Giving in to pharma on Medicare Part D can be written off as a mistake. But when the same mistake is repeated with the insurance companies, that’s not a mistake, it is a pattern.
We’ve been equal opportunity criticizers of people trying to derail and weaken HCR — Democrat and Republican. Perhaps you didn’t notice a post here calling out Tom Carper for egging on the killing of the Public Option votes.
And A1’s post is a textbook one from him demonstrating exactly why he is a liar and a fool.
That public option ≠ Single Payer.
But thanks for playing.
Funny how nobody here who supports passing the Senate bill wants to address the economics of how people are suddenly going to be able to fork over one month’s of their pay (8%) and still be able to afford their other basic necessities. Funny how nobody here who supports passing the Senate bill wants to address the fact that having health insurance isn’t the same as being able to afford health care. Funny how nobody here who supports passing the Senate bill wants to address why taxpayers, working families, and businesses should be forced to send a hundred billion dollars or more in profits to the insurance companies every year while kids are going hungry, education is underfunded, and people still won’t be able to afford healthcare.
Funny.
Perhaps you didn’t notice a post here calling out Tom Carper for egging on the killing of the Public Option votes.
Well, all the other posts calling public option supporters “purists” kind of takes the sting out of your Carper criticism.
Yes, cassandra_m. I am just like the “liars and fools” who said that it was wrong to go to war in Iraq.
You friggin libs stand for nothing. That you would throw Kucinch the man of the people under the bus to pass this SICKO legislation is not only dumb but shows how ignorant you are of what we are fighting for! Dont you know that the Bill as written prohibits states from enacting their own plans? Dont believe in states rights? Keep thinking this bill is a good one its terrible and you know it. This is what separates bold progressives from libs who talk a lot, but stand for nothing. You all gave up long ago when you refused to back Delaware’s single payer bill, a mirror of HR 676! You all gave up when single payer was never PUT ON THE TABLE! You now throw your hands in the air, while 14 REAL progressives are fighting to salvage at least the right to have states have their own?
Guessing you think the bill as written insuring only 31 million instead of all 45M is okay. Or, that delivering up 31 million to the for profits insurance company zombies is okay too. Get a back bone, stand up for principle. As far as Marcos, that guy is not a bold progressive, is not even part of the community of progressives and other groups pushing for a better bill. He is proving he is nothing more than a democrat flak who will throw progressives under any ole bus, cuz he wants more teevee time.
Why are you not going after the damn blue dogs, the real corporate whores! Why arent you attacking Stupid Stupak taking away decades old rights for women? you people make me ill and give me no hope for progressives ever building a real coalition.
Dennis K. has offered up the most progressive bills in Congress…too progressive for the blue dogs and right of center corporate democrat corporate whores…so stuff it.
Funny how nobody here who supports passing the Senate bill wants to address the economics of how people are suddenly going to be able to fork over one month’s of their pay (8%) and still be able to afford their other basic necessities.
Not so funny when you take into consideration that you keep making that up. And not do you take into consideration how much people who have insurance now pay for insurance.
Intriguing how you can work so much harder at being a victim, than in getting something accomplished. One day people might buy it, but keep practicing!
http://www.commondreams.org.view/2010/3/11-11. Kucinch put forward a resolution to end the war in Afganistan. Howard Berman Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee vehemently opposed sanity. The vote: 365 to 65! More proof our Congress are packed with war mongering madmen/women willing to continue this war, spending trillions on it, while depriving the american people of health care, jobs etc.
Now how many of you think the Resolution Kucinch put forth was progressive and correct? Would you have voted to support it? You say Kucinch only had a few bills passed…right because he has always offered up bills to protect citizens, has a concience and is always up against the 365 warmongers in the Congress, instead of standing with the corporations trying to figure out how to steal more money from you. Get a grip.
A1, I never claimed that this HCR bill would solve all the problems, and have admitted that it will create problems. I have always viewed this bill as a starting point and have promised to fight to keep improving it.
Right now Republicans and the insurance industry are having a fit – not so much over this bill, but where they see this heading. The writing is on the wall.
No Cassandra the PUBLIC OPTION IS NOT SINGLE PAYER! This proves how little you really no about this topic. There are exchanges in the public option. Those exchanges are ONLY delivering up for profit health care. It is the opposite of Medicare for all..single payer. A system which could go into effect tomorrow, not 5 or 6 years from now! It will cost billions to set up these exchanges, delivering nothing to health care. A complete and total waste of money, while 45,000 more people continue to die every year until the for profit companies get even more millions of citizens to extort.
Dont you know that the Bill as written prohibits states from enacting their own plans?
JK, I just want to let you know that this statement is 100% wrong. There is a section in the Senate bill calledPart 1 – SEC. 1332. WAIVER FOR STATE INNOVATION . This basically says that if states have a better way of reforming health care, as long as it meets the minimum requirements of the bill, they can do it. States could use this to enact a single payer system or public option if they wanted. The only downsides I can see are that they can’t take effect until 2017 (although that could be amended at some point) and that conservative states could use it to do a worse job. Either way, STATES RIGHTS!
It is the opposite of Medicare for all..single payer. A system which could go into effect tomorrow, not 5 or 6 years from now!
But… it won’t go into effect tomorrow, or even the day after the present bill dies. And that’s the point. But hey, JK, if you can show me the votes on how to achieve this I’m all ears.
There are millions today who don’t have health insurance because they can’t afford it. If the Senate bill passes, they will be forced to pay up to 8% (~1 month) of their annual income (whatever that is) to purchase private health insurance or face government fines. If they can’t find a policy for less than 8% in their state, they won’t be fined. And even with mandated health insurance, they will still be required to pay deductibles when they get healthcare services. And, as we all know, cheaper insurance equals higher deductibles. So if they can’t afford the deductibles, they can’t get healthcare. Who wins? The insurance companies because they get to collect premiums that the buyers can’t afford to make claims against. Pure profit.
In spite of cassandra_m’s fact-free name calling, everything that I have written in this thread is true about the Senate bill.
HCR 2010 = WMD 2002. Obomba lies while real HCR dies.
Geez us! It only gets worse! RollCall reporting Dick Durbin will ask Senate Democrats to break their promise to american citizens voting YES on the public option if it comes up in reconciliation?
So lets get this straight. His argument is democrats should break their promise because the REPUKES will offer up amendements???
Health care reform is not about the republicans. Its time for Durbin and others to keep their promise and vote FOR the public option in reconcilation. They can lawfully do it, so what is their excuse now. Going to check Durbins campaign contributions to see if this fool has been purchased. Failure of leadership, failure to honor the majority of american wishes and desires, because the republicans MIGHT offer up an amendment…the lamest excuse yet.
pandora, where you and I disagree is that this bill is a good starting point. It isn’t. It is worse than doing nothing.
Interesting how this topic has strayed from the fact that Kucinich is not an effective progressive Congressman.
The reason that Kos and you are trying to claim that he is “not an effective progressive Congressman” is because he might be the progressive Congressman that kills this very non-progressive Senate bill, which would make him a very effective progressive Congressman.
Judging people’s effectiveness as a legislator solely based on the number of bills they have sponsored and passed is dumb.
Anonone, by that logic, you must think every GOP Senator and Congressman is very effective. And you view obstruction as an accomplishment.
Meanwhile, the rest of the planet views accomplishment as actually doing something as opposed to not doing something. But, you’re right, Kucinich is a very effective progressive chairman when you consider all that he has not done.
Anonone = GOP.
JK – For the record this symbol “≠” is the Not Equal sign. This “=” is the Equal sign. So when Cassandra said “That public option ≠ Single Payer.” She was making the EXACT same point that you were making when you started foaming at the mouth.
As for the Kucinich point, he is a member of a chamber of 435. He is also a member that has strong ideological views. I would be interested to see how Congresscritters on either end of the spectrum do on the “effectiveness” front. For example, how does Ron Paul look when it comes to his effectiveness?
I forget who it was that pointed out Kucinich is acting like Ralph Nader did in 2000 and that got us 8 years of BUSH.Swallow hard Dennis,take a deep breath,hold your nose and vote yes on health care.Let’s fix it in the future.
The definition of a true progressive is someone who only produced pure, perfect legislation according to some people here.
No the true progressive is someone who actually stands for the people and will not cave to a Congress where the insurance companies are spending $1 million a day to water it down.
The Hill reporting: Hoyer says, “we are going forward with Stupaks amendment, we are HOPEFUL we will get a majority”! Really Senator? You believe once that Senate bill is signed by Obama that it will go to reconcilation, read somemore fairy tales. Once he signs it, Obama will leave for his trip, the legislature will go home and its a done deal.
The CBO has not even released the scores on the Reconcilation bill, and these corporate whores are ready to cave. Pelosi says “she will give members a week to study the legislation”. Really Senator, a week puts that way beyond March 18th?
Who are these Stupid Stupak followers, why aren’t the democrats identifying them so citizens in their states can go after them? Is the Carpetbagger one of them? Don’t we deserve the right to know if there are 12….maybe Stupak is playing poker?
Geek: it would help progressives if you libs started “foaming at the mouth” instead of being appeasers.
“Simply put, you can’t call yourself a progressive if you move nothing forward”
That is wrong. Why is this even a debate? You can debate over how effective Kucinich is and whether he goes about things the right way, but don’t say he is not a progressive. Especially when you base that claim off the number of bills he has gotten passed, when there are many other ways to be effective than just passing the bills you sponsor. The claim that he is not a progressive is just dishonest.
But I think this whole discussion misses the larger point: Why are we not attacking all those people who oppose Kucinich? Few of us here oppose the things that Kucinich believes in, so then the question is why aren’t they getting passed? We should be blaming the people who make progressives like Kucinich ineffective, especially those people like the Blue Dogs, one of whom is in our state (and where is Castle, the great moderate? When push comes to shove, he doesn’t seem that moderate at all). Attack the people who do nothing before you attack the people who can’t do anything because their own party is full of rot and the other party is full of obstructionists (let’s hope we don’t give one of them more power by electing him to the Senate).
Maybe we should ask Kucinich to sponsor some bills getting new designs on our coins so he can be more “effective”?
Also, I personally don’t believe that the health care issue will be able to be “fixed” in the future if we pass a bad bill, such as one without the public option. Whatever passes now is staying for a long long time. When have we had a larger majority or a more beloved president? And yet in 5 years we are going to have more courage from the Democrats, when they can’t show one lick of it now?
Sorry, you think standing with people like Hoyer, Stupak, Durbin et al, are good legislators lookin out for us. Kucinch has ALWAYS stood with the people, against all these friggin wars. He was right, politically correct but up against a bunch of rich, corrupted democrats who are truely war mongers, support the military industrial complex. Support the prison industrial complex. Suppor the banker/gangsters! Support Wall Street over Main Street. Support the For profit insurance companies…they are ALL on the take.
Sorry, it is Kucinch and Howard Dean, along with BOLD progressives, Unions, Doctors/Nurses at PNHP and others fighting to get a better deal right up to the last moment! You cavers, you wafflers, have no conviction or principles. You are ready to cave and claim done deal. Its a bad deal for all of us.
Damn with your attitudes we will never have a majority of progressive legislators taking this country toward a better future for us and the world. We will have a bunch of lameass, spineless, corporate whores willing to do the american people in, to keep themselves in power. Shame on you!
Hey Pandora! Its about leadership, from the Prez. But the Prez didnt have ownership of his convictions. He threw it to a Congress and Senate letting them figure it out. He knew up front the blue dogs and repukes wouldnt back him up. He did nothing to move the issue forward. He can’t even explain why “he didnt support single payer”, he couldnt explain why the PUBLIC option was something he not only supported, but would not sign without it. Its corruption. Look at his campaign contributions, he got more from the insurance companies than the republicans did! You dance with the one who brung you! Now a year later, he thinks he can use the campaign trail to get support…but he still can’t explain WHY we need this done, WHY it will cost effective, WHY it will keep our jobs in this country. Why is he doing this! Because he is compromised. He is fearful the republicans will expose his/Rahm/Axelrod’s dirty deal with Big Pharma! They even misread the Mass vote for the republican. They didnt get it that Mass has twice sent its single payer legislation to the Governor twice. It lost by one vote. People in Massachussetts WANTED single payer and would not support the dem because she was going along with the Obama/Blue Dog plan. People in Mass have had years dealing with the Mitt Romney (Senate bill)!
The proof of this is the fact that the democrats have pulled out of the Senate bill the States ability to vote for their own system? They want to make sure the States are over ridden regardless of what citizens in those states want. Talk about a insurance giveaway, this is an insurance companies dream. They wont have to fight in states who have ready to roll their own single payer bills. That my friend is the ultimate sell out.
Del Dem, had Biden, Gephadt, and Daschle obstructed going to war in Iraq, I would have called them very effective legislators and their actions a great accomplishment. And, yes, the current republican leadership is very effective at blocking bills that they don’t like.
Keeping legislation from passing is part of effective legislating. Whether the particular legislation is good or bad depends on your opinion.
Writing “Anonone=GOP” shows how substance-less and silly your argument has become.
Its not just Kucinch: Go to: democracyforamerica.com….Howard Dean says: Good Policy not Bipartisan Junk. Junk is what we got, unless we fight back.
The Hill reporting: Pelosi just threw a wrench into efforts to reintroduce the public option in reconciliation. “We had it, we wanted it, its not in the reconcilaiton bill. Its not there because the Senate didnt have the votes? She said, “while we wont have a public option, we will have a “purpose” of the public option served by exchanges!!!!
The Carpetbagger and blue dogs won. These exchanges cost millions if not billions to set up. Not a penny of that goes to health care. Thats why nothing goes into effect until 2018 because thats how long it takes to set up a “second system”. Democrats are going to lose big in 2010 and 2012. They have now proven they have no leadership skills, they are corrupted by the corporates and democracy is now DEAD! That stupid silly woman. Also, the Stupak amendment is going to stand. Not only did they throw the majority under the bus, but women too! Good luck with all that.
Yes, we have a system where people besides Kucinich get a vote. Nancy Pelosi has done more to give us progressive legislation than Dennis Kucinich ever has or will in the future. She’s a hero to me.
Right on !!!!
Way back when Progressive Democrats for Delaware was being formed we had two choices. We could affiliate with the Democracy for America coalition (Howard Dean), or we could affiliate with the Progressive Democrats for America coalition (Dennis Kucinich).
I was familiar with the DFA crowd from working on the Dean campaign. So, I went to DC for a three-day event sponsored by the PDA group to see what they were about. After the second day I went back to my hotel room exhausted. They were saying all the right things but they were totally opposed to any give-and-take or placing their agenda in reality. It seemed to me that they were dedicated and willing to work hard, but I couldn’t figure out what the end product would be. I mean other than a lot of noise and agony. The thing is, it is very difficult to keep people engaged if the only reward is noise and agony. They tend to wander off. Both activists and elected officials.
DFA seemed to have attainable goals that would lead to some victories. I need the occasional victory to keep doing this. And in a country that was trending right and where corporations and rich people control the media and have limitless funds to propagandize the voters, a few victories seemed really necessary if our group was going to survive. We opted to join DFA.
Which is a long way of saying that Kucinich is a wonderful, principled man, but I don’t have the head-banging stamina it takes to follow him. I’m purely glad he’s staked out the far-left side of issues, and he adds to the process by doing so. The good old Overton Window Effect. But I do have problems when purity gets in the way of progress, however compromised it is.
Politics are fluid, they change every day, which is why they are so fascinating. And, we all need to pull hard left every chance we get. But we also need to live in the real world. I’m with Cassandra on this. Gently, slowly, get where your going. The medical complex is something like 16% of our GDP. It isn’t going to turn on a dime. We’ve got a long haul ahead to get this thing right. Grab a few victories along the way to keep your head from exploding and keep on trucking.
Grab a few victories along the way
This HCR will a political victory, but a policy loss. So those of you who will be popping champagne corks, let’s be clear on what you are celebrating.
Heck, at this point I am for the reconciliation bill mostly because the Repubs are against it. I am totally caught up in the political game now. Obama and Reid wore me out.
So enjoy the political victory, and the dream of real HCR in the future. But don’t forget to hold your nose. If you let go of holding your nose to celebrate, people will start to think you like the smell.
I don’t plan on popping champagne corks – too much more work to be done!
And Rebecca, excellent points.
“Gently, slowly, get where your going.” Sorry, Rebecca, this bill isn’t doing anything but tilting the table even more from the poor and middle class toward the corporations. Picking the pockets of American families of billions of dollars per year for the profits of private insurance companies that does nothing to benefit the public good is stealing. And once this gravy train gets rolling, there will be no stopping it. The “fix it later” crowd are seemingly oblivious to the power of big insurance.
This is a horrid horrid bill. If it passes, it will be hung on the Obomba and the Democratic party like an albatross. Polls show that the American people want HCR, but not this bill. When people start getting fined because they can’t afford health insurance, when people start losing their jobs and homes because they can’t make ends meet after paying 1 month’s income to the insurance companies, when people go to doctors and can’t get treatment because they can’t pay the high deductibles or buy the drugs they need, there will be hell to pay.
Mark my words.
A-1,
Everything you say is probably true and it doesn’t change anything. If we get pre-existing conditions outlawed. If we get recision outlawed. We’ve made progress. Those two things alone are worth the fight.
If people below whatever percent of the proverty line get subsidized coverage we’ve made progress.
Does the middle class get hammered by this? Probably. And it will take awhile longer before they simply get fed up with the Corporatists in Washington. But they are getting there. Witness the pork-ear-mark bill this week.
The most progress we’ve made with all this is the stark revelation of how truly bought the US Senate is. People are waking up. That is progress. The mood of the voters is ugly and it is going to get uglier.
The fact that the insurance industry bragged to the analysist on Wall Street this week that they plan to continue raising rates as fast and as high as they can is a pretty good indicator of the blind arrogance of these people. But they are flying very close to the sun. We’re about to see just what their hubris will do to them. The next healthcare hurdle is going to be a whole lot easier.
Oh, and, since Jason330 isn’t here to say it I will. Republican incumbents are in deep doo. And so are Blue Dog’s. The voters aren’t nearly as dumb as those folks think they are.
Rebecca: If you chose Democracy For America, why didnt your group support Single Payer for Delaware? Why are not supporting them today? They arent caving! OpEd news and other truly progressive groups going after Markos for his threat against Kucinch. “I and other progressives see him as a hero and a saint along with Wendell Potter”. Kucinch said when interviewed today by OPED news said, “we need to keep the discussion going about alternatives, every discussion about alternatives puts the pressure in the direction of coming up with a better bill”! Think about that! Daily Kos is attacking Kucinch one of the brightest visionary in the progressive World. It is impossible to be too progressive. If you don’t have the fight in your belly Rebecca, well that pretty much says it all.
You might consider following the principles of Democracy for America, one of the groups I get email from every day. You wouldnt know from some of the liberal cavers here they are even paying close attention.
Rebecca and Casandra: Incrementalism is a liberal idea. If we did civil rights incrementally, we would still be under Jim Crow law. You are willing to take 10% of the loaf rather than fight for 90%? This is a totally democratic bill. If the democrats can’t support one of their own platforms, why should anyone believe what they say or more than what the repukes say. The real truth is that neither party is working for the citizens, both parties are under control of Corporate America. This is a terrible bill as written. It does nothing for medications, those prices will sky rocket! Womens right to choose killed by democrats? You have to be kidding if you think people who have been knowledgeable on this topic for years some decades are going to buy this skunk think again. There is a reason why citizens are leaving both parties and going independent. They are one corporate snake with two heads.
JK, civil rights
wereare incremental.Indeed they are. We still have LGBT citizens without full civil rights that plenty of people are still fighting for.
Social Security was incremental.
Medicare was incremental.
Civil rights are incremental.
Thanks Rebecca for sharing your perspective. The health care reform battle was (is) long and bruising. We have learned some things in the battle, most especially the complete dysfunctionality of the Senate.
Do I long for a day when everyone wakes up and sees what’s going on? Of course. But human nature doesn’t work that way – it’s rather short-sighted and resistance to change. People that want change have to work 100x harder than the forces of the status quo.
Never in our history has the government forced citizens to purchase services from for-profit private corporations.
Never. Never, Never.
Billions of dollars that should be going to the public good are going to go into private pockets, while schools decay, hunger and poverty rise, families are losing their homes, and deficits are skyrocketing. And you call that “incrementalism”?
That isn’t “incrementalism;” that is theft and extortion.
Arguing for incrementalism in the face of a catastrophe isn’t a very strong position.
U.I. wrote: “Do I long for a day when everyone wakes up and sees what’s going on?” Then why don’t you tell Nemski and cassandra_m to stop ridiculing people like Dennis K. who are trying to wake people up?
The attacks on people who are against this bill by people like Kos and Nemski and Cassandra_m are despicable.
Car insurance
Do you understand that not everyone feels the same away about public vs. private? They care if it works. This legislation helps reign in the worst of the insurance company practices (recission, no out-of-pocket caps, pre-existing condition exclusions and gender discrimination to name some) and makes it affordable to a whole lot of people who couldn’t buy insurance before.
How is Dennis Kucinich going to wake up all these people if he can’t even persuade his allies in the Democratic party?
Thanks U.I.
All major legislation is incremental. Our government is designed that way so we stay stable. It means working 100x harder like U.I. says, and OMG it takes a hundred years and more to move civil rights.
Churchill said it best. Americans will eventually do the right thing after they’ve tried all the wrong ones. Does that make me happy? Absolutely NOT. It just makes me more stubborn. It makes everyone here more stubborn. Good on us. As to the fight in my belly JK, well, you don’t know me do you? But, I do like to spend my limited time and talent where I think I can actually achieve something. Not everything, and not all at once. But small victories add up.
The Federal government doesn’t force anyone to buy car insurance. Either do the states unless you want to drive, which is a voluntary activity last I looked.
C’mon UI, you’re smarter than that.
Good question, U.I. When you’re up against a Democratic President who lies about his positions and is more interested in pacifying repubs than in doing what he promised to do, it is difficult. But if he casts the vote that defeats this horrid bill, maybe he’ll get their attention.
What is “incremental” about forcing Americans to work one month a year for the benefit of private health insurance companies?
Am I crazy for thinking 8% of your income for health insurance is not THAT outrageous?
Yes, UI, you’re crazy. BTW, Jim Sipala called and he wants to see you in a Kia.
Am I crazy for thinking 8% of your income for health insurance is not THAT outrageous?
Why should the price of your health care have anything to do with how much money you make? If you want people with higher incomes to pay more, then tax them.
Show me the legislation – I don’t believe that number. US median income is around $50K… where do you get a family policy for $4K/year? I make decent money, but $4k is roughly what I am paying now just for the employee contribution part of our employer health plan. Lord knows how much I am paying for health care buried in my “total compensation.”
8% is outrageous considering that at least 15 to 20% of that is skimmed off the top for insurance company profits when it could be staying with the families that earned the money to begin with.
And I guess you have never lived in a home where putting food on the table is a constant worry.
A1,
You know nothing about me or my life. I know what it’s like to live paycheck to paycheck. People struggling to put food on the table benefit a lot from this bill. Medicaid is expanded to help them and subsidies are provided if they don’t qualify for the expanded Medicaid.
anon,
That’s what the subsidies are for. They are supposed to cap your out-of-pockets at 8%. If you can not find a policy that fits that description then you are exempt from the mandate.
Right now, I’m forced to pay for-profit companies for food, shelter and clothing.
Glenn Greenwald calls the democrats health care plan pure bullshit.There is no reason not to pass the public option, except for the fact they really never intended to.
Democrats are going to pay a high price for this insurance company giveway. The for profits take 45cents out of every health care dollar. None of that goes for health care, it goes for salaries, marketing, sales, tv ads, shareholders etc. Just wait till you dems begin to understand what this party did the citizens. We will all be looking for a new party.
That’s what the subsidies are for. They are supposed to cap your out-of-pockets at 8%. If you can not find a policy that fits that description then you are exempt from the mandate.
“Exempt from the mandate?” I ALREADY have the right to not buy insurance I can’t afford. I don’t need legislation for that.
Median income is about $50K. Eight percent of that is $4K.
What kind of family insurance can you get for $4K/yr?
Are we going to start subsidizing insurance companies for customers who earn the median income and still can’t afford their products?
Of course. Not only are you being forced to pay for your own tithe to the insurance company, but billions of your taxes will be going directly in their pockets, too. All because of gutless democrats and the spineless liberals who think that passing anything called HCR is a good idea, regardless of what it actually does.
Lipstick on a pig, indeed.
UI wrote “I’m forced to pay for-profit companies for food, shelter and clothing.”
No, you’re not.
The government won’t fine you if you don’t buy food, shelter, or clothing from for-profit companies. Another piece of obfuscation with no comparison to the health insurance debacle. I know you’re smarter than this.
BTW, I love how “liberals” here keep arguing that having poor and middle class people fork over their hard earned money to health insurer’s profits directly or by paying for other people’s subsidies is somehow “good for them” and that they will “benefit a lot from this bill.”
I don’t understand how any progressive can be alright the current health care bill, as weak as it is. Does it make some good changes? Yes. But are those changes going to be effective?
Really, we should all be in favor of a single-payer system, but of course Obama will not do that considering how much money he gets from the insurance companies. So the next best choice is the public option, but Obama won’t even stand up for that. And now we, who consider ourselves liberals and progressives, are so willing to give it up as well? Because we think that we will get better legislation later? When is this time going to come when the Democrats have more power than they do now? Now instead we will be left with a bill that forces us to subsidize some of the worst corporations in this country. Yes, that’s very progressive.
Sometimes, we need to fight, we need to be exhausted, because that’s what the conservatives do. But more importantly, we need to keep pushing and demanding what is right, even when we think we can’t do it anymore, because we are progressives. If you want to sit back and end up with half-ass bills, then you’re just a Democrat (and I think right now we have far too many Democrats [and Republicans with D’s in front of their names], and not enough progressives Democrats. The problem isn’t that Dennis Kucinich isn’t progressive, it’s that no one else is).
and I think right now we have far too many Democrats [and Republicans with D’s in front of their names], and not enough progressives Democrats
And that’s the real problem, db. And… until we change this we are stuck with what we have. And people calling other people “liberals” and “purists” only succeeds in dividing us.
If this bill passes, or fails, it’s only the beginning of the fight. We can’t remain divided in an I told you so sort of way. We have to unite. And while I see the road to success in the passing of this bill, if it fails I swear to fight harder. Will you commit to the fight if the bill passes?
Sorry, but the passage of this particular bill is not the road to success. Once the unintended consequences shake out, of the fire sale….the public will never embrace REAL reform, and your congress will stay as far away as possible in prioritizing this on the agenda. You pass this bill–and their hands are washed. Keep reform out there–pass it in pieces–and do the public a favor. Don’t just pass something to show us you can pass something. Break it up then take it up. Impatience, and a hurried sweeping measure thru congress has gotten us everything from bailouts to the Patriot Act–and you sure don’t see any do-overs anytime soon there now do you? Please….easy on the gas.
Somebody probably said this about Social Security or Medicare back in the day too.
This bill is not the end of a reform effort. I think it was Jay Rockefeller who noted that if this bill passes, we change the frequency of talking about it from once every 20 or so years to every year. Which isn’t to say that there will be changes to this thing every year, but at least you have something to try to improve and very few people who want it to go away.
DB. Progressives are not in favor of this crappy bill, only the centurists and libs are. They should dump both bills and sign on to Alan Graysons Medicare for All bill, a 4pager! Adam at Bold Progressives said last night on Ed Schultz they did a count and there are 50 votes in the Senate…so whats Pelosi’s excuse now?
They will not do health care for many years. Evidence it wont be until 2018 until the phony system is in place. This will stay the law of the land, until the country is totally bankrupt and then they will go to single payer…because they have too. Just like Europe after WW2…when every country was broke.
Social Security and Medicare targeted a very specific population demographic at the time, and most everyone could agree to the necessity of looking after that group. This bill dumps the whole population into the “up for grabs” pool, of increases, outcomes, changes and mandates–more far reaching, comprehensive, and total paradigm shift of doing healthcare business in the US.. Penalties and laws attached preclude any roll-out of incremental change to see just what this sweeping change can do good or bad. Layer by layer IMHO is the way to begin this reform. If you want to start w/ the uninsured, start w/ them. If you want to start w/ “pre-existing” conditions, start there….but it’s way too complicated, over-arching, expensive and monumental to go w/ what’s been laid out. Identify a time line for reform, to settle the major issues within reform—children, uninsured,COBRA,end-of-life, dependents,companies, rates, experimental regimes, holistic/alternative…and on and on. Keep this fluid, a work in progress w/ mandates/regs., as we go. This package is way too hearty/lofty/onerous for the very people who will be paying for it. Deconstructing this at a later time will leave much more shrapnel and ill-will amongst stakeholders, than joint construction now–but “stick built”. A targeted “problem” or two a year works for me.
Ha ha. Nate Silver rates that Rep. Dennis Kucinich may be the least valuable Democrat.
Yeah who is Nate Silver? That rating system is moronic, it’s based on 10 votes. All that rating system shows is that Kucinich is way too progressive for the other bums who call themselves Democrats and try to pass weak legislation.
Also, when did value become a statistic? Remember that value comes in many ways other than what yes/no votes show (which was the problem with this post to begin with!)
Yeah, who is Bill James? Yeah, who is George Martin? Jerome Kern? Bob Zimmerman?
We know that Kucinich views politics as a platform to preen, not a vehicle for accomplishment.