Morning Round Em Up
A naturalized American citizen originally from Pakistan was arrested for the attempted Times Square car bomb last night on his getaway plane to Dubai. A victory for law enforcement and the Obama Administration. Now try him in our courts and convict him, and that will be another victory for our justice system. He is an American citizen and should be punished according to our laws. Law and order conservatives can have no problem with that, and if they do, they are hypocrites.
—-
To quote Booman, with whom I share a mistaken first impression that the Time Square attempted carbombing was not the work of foreign terrorists:
I admit my initial skepticism that it was an attack with foreign connections was incorrect, though it seems clear that the bomber wasn’t particularly well trained in the art of bomb making by the Taliban in Pakistan or by anyone else for that matter. This does show in my humble opinion, however, that the Obama administration’s policy of increased predator drone attacks against suspected Taliban leaders and jihadists in Pakistan and Afghanistan that often end up killing non-Taliban civilians, including women and children, have consequences.
Terrorists do hate us, but not for our freedom as idiot conservatives like to say. They often have very legitimate reasons for hating us. If they attacked us with predator drones and killed your innocent family, I’d say we hate them too.
—-
Don’t Tase Me Bro.
Is it appropriate to use a taser on an unruly fan who is just trying to get attention? Especially a 17 year old fan? I am ambivalent. The Phillies, however, do not seem to be happy that a taser was used:
“This is the first time that a Taser gun has been used by Philadelphia police to apprehend a field jumper,” Phillies spokeswoman Bonnie Clark said in a statement. “The Police Department is investigating this matter and the Phillies are discussing with them whether in future situations this is an appropriate use of force under these circumstances. That decision will be made public.”
—-
Kavips states the obvious: The Teabaggers and the Tea Parties are based on race. It is obviously true, or else all teabaggers everywhere would be upset at the fascist Arizona Immigration law, and they are not.
—-
Tasering has become part of our government’s “torture at will” policy. Electrical shock torture used to be done in the torture chambers of despots. Now they are done in America to the cheering and laughs of thousands in a stadium and then celebrated further on YouTube.
The ideal that once was America is no more.
The Faisal Shahzad arrest story sounds pretty dramatic. He was on a plane to Dubai and it had already pulled away from the gate. The authorities got the plane to come back to the gate and arrested Shahzad there.
Taser torture is one of the things that keeps me reluctantly on the side of the Second Amendment nuts. I can’t think of a more clear-cut example of government tyranny and your right to an active defense against it.
It seems pretty obvious to me what this Shazam, sorry, Shahzad, story is. This is a guy (or maybe a couple of guys) on his own, possibly with the implicit OK of a foreign group, but without any official assistance. This is just someone trying to impress the cool kids. You would think that in the age of the internet, where you can find directions to make nuclear weapons, that a real terrorist could come up with something better that the wrong fertilizer, canisters that are hard to explode, firecrackers, and alarm clocks. Where was he trained, the Itchy and Scratchy School of Ordinance?
“The ideal that once was America is no more.”
Perhaps in your pathetic world. Don’t get your panties in a wad. It simply represents another evolutionary progression of non-lethal weaponry. And, if you hand a cop a tool, teach them how to use it, don’t be surprised when they do. I suppose you much prefer the sap, nightstick, PR-24 (ask Rodney K. about that one), ASP (telescoping nightstick)… all of which leave a lasting impression (literally).
When in the business, I had a problem with electrical devices and the wide assortment of bludgeoning instruments. The TAZER is especially prone to potential abuse because, after the barbs are attached to the subject, it has a feature that allows the operator to continue to deliver shocks, at will, until the battery is dead. Except for the sap, I was trained with them all, but much prefer pepper spray. There’s nothing like a 10% shot of oleo-resin capsicum to inflame the mucous membranes, and get the phlegm flowing. We called it the “four foot booger”. A real crowd pleaser. I would even consider buying Philly tickets…
Scott,
I’m not so sure about Shahzad. He apparently was in Pakistan for 5 months prior to the bombing attempt. If he did any training there, it was obviously from morans.
“… a real terrorist could come up with something better that the wrong fertilizer, canisters that are hard to explode, firecrackers, and alarm clocks. Where was he trained, the Itchy and Scratchy School of Ordinance?”
Like a shoe, or underwear bomb? These guys need to watch some Roadrunner cartoons as training videos.
It simply represents another way for the government to brutally torture innocent people at-will, easily, and usually without repercussion. They are being used repeatedly on non-violent and non-threatening people. Their unmitigated abuse represents the loss of due process, the presumption of innocence, and protections against cruel and unusual punishment, all once bedrocks of American justice.
Thanks for cheering on Amerika’s police state, miscreant.
Mis: Warner Bros. is readying a new generation of Looney Tunes. Maybe this time W.E. Coyote will be a convert to Islam. What’s the Farsi word for “Acme”?
How did our poor little policemen manage those deadly fence jumpers before there were TAZERS ?
A1: Do you think the folks who egg on their drunken companions in these cases will be more likely or less likely to do so knowing a tasering is a possibility? Normally I’d consider this a deterrent, but then I think about Vomit Guy and I’m not so sure.
oh, how sad, the first suspect arrested wasn’t a redneck… but I’ll bet he drinks tea… and that practically makes him a teapartier…
it’s thin, but it’s something for you moonbats to hang your hate on.
Miscreant’s New Amerikan School:
“US school for disabled forces students to wear packs that deliver massive electric shocks”
“A former employee of the center told an investigator, “When you start working there, they show you this video which says the shock is ‘like a bee sting’ and that it does not really hurt the kids. One kid, you could smell the flesh burning, he had so many shocks. These kids are under constant fear, 24/7. They sleep with them on, eat with them on. It made me sick and I could not sleep. I prayed to God someone would help these kids.””
That is where this country is headed.
http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0504/rights-group-files-urgent-appeal-alleging-torture-school-disabled/
If the Redcoats had had tasers, they would be included in the list of grievances against King George, and would be unconstitutional today. Plus there probably would have been a lot more Redcoat casualties.
Geezer, non-violent non-threatening people should not be threatened with electrical shock torture in America by government agents.
Now they are done in America to the cheering and laughs of thousands in a stadium …
Actually, A1 (and extending to delacrat), the report I got from someone at the game was that there was a lot of cheering when the kid was (illegally) running around on the field, but boos were very audible once realization a Tazer was used got around. Even in the news reports this morning, you can hear the boos getting more pronounced (although cheering was still heard as well). You have to think, though, that not everyone there probably even realized one was used.
I really can’t imagine a Tazer was justified in that case, though. That said, how do you propose they handle wall jumpers, which is explicitly illegal to begin with?
P.S.: delacrat – why do you seem to hate police? Your 9:35AM comment indicates something deep in that regard.
Correct, RSmitty, in the video above, it is plain as day that the crowd boos when the kid is tazered.
Smitty: Why does being cynical and mistrustful about police equate to “hating” them?
“non-violent non-threatening people should not be threatened with electrical shock torture in America by government agents”
And we should all live together in a spirit of brotherhood and community spirit. But here in the real world, I asked whether you thought this would lead to more or less wall-jumping. Simple question. Why dodge it?
I was at the game. (i really was) and other than my man-crush (chase) belting 3 home runs and only getting credit for one of them, THIS was the most entertaining part of the game.
SOME Phillies Fans are getting out of control. This isn’t the first time someone has run onto the field and disrupted the game but it IS the first time they were Tazed. This video also only shows a small fraction of the event. He was being chased around the field for a good full minute before the guard with he tazer even showed up. He was running up to players and harassing them and being an all around jack-ass. the Phillies are selling out every single game this season. It generates untold revenue for the city. between sales at the ball park, subway riders (it is packed) street vendors… you name it. What is also good are the huge numbers of young people who attend. A whole new generation of loyal fans exists for the Phillies in a way unseen since the days of Schmidt. The downside is you have these kids who treat it like a frat party. Simply getting escorted out doesn’t work on these little cretins. they consider it an honor. Maybe a shock and a couple days of being sore will make other brats think twice.
And geezer, don’t even get me started on the vomit guy. Making fun of someone brave enough to wear the opposing jersey to a game is one thing. Making yourself vomit on a little girl is also taze-worthy.
btw, A!, the old version of tazing was flogging. (so it’s nothing new)
because he doesnt argue for reason or resolution. he argues to vent his gripes about reality.
“Thanks for cheering on Amerika’s police state, miscreant.”
You are obviously painfully ignorant of law enforcement methodology, the use of force continuum, and totally devoid of any sense of humor. So, I’ll take tha, and your maturity level, into consideration, and forgive you.
No one is cheering here, Einstein. Typical scenario: The police handled it and are being criticized by ignorant, reactionary douchebags. If they handled it differently, they would still be criticized by some douche nozzles. If they didn’t handle it at all… all hell would break loose, and they would be charged with dereliction of duty. Other than putting the idiot into a peaceful trance, and levitating him out of the stadium, what would you suggest?
Geezer: true…I reacted. I believe there is an automatic disdain for police that blankets each individual person in that profession and I think that is not right. My use of “hatred” was intended to represent that cynicism, but I do think I was at least correct in basing it on a “not-like” emotion. I do acknowledge there are cases of abuse by law enforcement, but that is hardly representative of the majority who work that profession. So, when I see a cynical and extremely belittling comment like the one I had referenced (“poor little policemen”), I can’t help but to see it as a back-handed attempt to take down the whole, not the person.
To be clear, I am not defending the use of Tazer in that incident.
Smitty,
There were fence jumpers at ball parks years before there were TAZERS. Major League Baseball thrived nonetheless.
I don’t see how our freedoms can thrive with the introduction of torture-at-will.
Moreover, maybe the fence jumper has the right idea.
Think about it. What does it say about our priorities when grown-ups watch grown-ups play a kids game while their neighbors are losing their jobs, homes, health care, life savings, lives and limbs to corrupt banksters and bullshit wars?
My gut reaction: Tazing the guy is a bit much. Now, I can’t view the video, so I can’t get a full feel for what happened, but I think maybe it was an overreaction by frustrated (and maybe embarrassed) officers, not by bad ones. The guy was certainly performing an illegal act, and needed to be apprehended, but could it not be done by tackling and grabbing him, like they always do?
Let’s change the venue. Suppose a guy shows up at a grocery store he’s been banned from (Why? I don’t know. Maybe he was molesting the melons?) So the guy runs around the store, refuses to leave, and makes a jackass and a nuisance of himself. Police get called. Would they be justified in tazering him, even if he doesn’t appear to be a danger to himself or anyone else? Shouldn’t they just grab him and eject him, even if it takes a few minuets? That’s my thinking.
And yes, Geezer, this might act very minorly as a deterant, although probably not to drunks. But putting a cap in his ass (that’s a thing, right?) would, too. I think at some point, you have to draw the line for an appropriate response. And that’s all I have to say about that.
Think about it. What does it say about our priorities when grown-ups watch grown-ups play a kids game while their neighbors are losing their jobs, homes, health care, life savings, lives and limbs to corrupt banksters and bullshit wars?
Oh wow. I didn’t realize there was a levy of guilt when partaking in sports. OK, what does it say about anyone who turns their eye off all of what you mentioned to go to work and focus on their employer? What does it say about the person who fuels up their car to enjoy a “Sunday Drive?” What does it say about the person who turns off national news, thus turning off their awareness, to listen to talk radio, say Al Mascitti on WDEL ( 😉 ), what does it say about the family who overpays for food by taking a night out to a restaurant and then later to a fictional movie to forget about reality, even if only for two or three hours?
Really? I get your point and I have my priorities, but my goodness, get your guilt off of my shoulders.
“Moreover, maybe the fence jumper has the right idea.
Think about it. What does it say about our priorities when grown-ups watch grown-ups play a kids game while their neighbors are losing their jobs, homes, health care, life savings, lives and limbs to corrupt banksters and bullshit wars?”
So… the fence jumper was protesting our current state of affairs, or was this Bush’s fault?
Thought so.
This place remains high entertainment.
scott, the problem is running on to the field AT THIS BALLPARK and being escorted out has become a badge of honor. Think about these flash mobs of teens in philly. Groups of kids plan all week to go to south street on Friday nights and spontaneously start a riot… just for the hell of it? (it is called “wilding” btw) many of them don’t even live in the city. Jackassry is becoming a cool trend among teens now, and I’ll be damned if I have to go to the ball game and worry about a bunch of teenagers suddenly being rowdy just for shits and giggles. This is a case where a growing problem was (hopefully) nipped in the butt.
These kids don’t understand “now, be respectful to your fellow citizens” they don’t even respond to being kicked out, as long as they can brag about ti with their friends later.
They aren’t peaceful protesters, or an oppressed minority. they are spoiled. disrespectful unruly white suburban kids who’s parents have CLEARLY failed in teaching them how to behave in public.
I never meant to say that this will deter fence-jumpers. I’m operating on the theory that most of these guys aren’t merely drunk, they’re also being egged on by equally drunken friends. If you’re the sort of person who would encourage your friend to do something that was going to get him arrested and fined, I think you’ll be MORE likely to do so if you get to watch him jerk around spasmodically before he’s dragged away.
“Jackassry is becoming a cool trend among teens now”.
Yeah, jackassery wasn’t cool when you were a teen. GMFB
Oh, and what it says about our priorities is “We enjoy being entertained.” Or were you looking for some deeper meaning?
ABC News:
“He appeared real close to getting away,” one federal official said. “The plane was buttoned up. Backed away from the jetway.”
Authorities said that despite the manhunt, his passport had not been flagged and he was able to buy a ticket with cash and clear airport security.
The System Worked sounds a lot like we got lucky.
Round em up? Is that a reference to your feelings towards all Republicans and being rounded up and shot?
“To quote Booman, with whom I share a mistaken first impression that the Time Square attempted carbombing was not the work of foreign terrorists”
That’s because your own narrow-mindedness clouds your judgment. It’s foolish people like you that feel those on the right are more dangerous than Militant-Islamo-Fascists. You’d rather this attack have been perpetrated by some white, right-wing American crackpot so you could use it to promote your own ridiculous political notions. So, instead of looking at this situation logically, you jumped to your own ridiculous conclusion despite the fact that most signs pointed only in one direction.
Simply put, it is people like you and our clueless Homeland Security Secretary that make this country less safe.
“So the guy runs around the store, refuses to leave, and makes a jackass and a nuisance of himself. Police get called. Would they be justified in tazering him, even if he doesn’t appear to be a danger to himself or anyone else? Shouldn’t they just grab him and eject him, even if it takes a few minuets? That’s my thinking.”
Much depends on the use of force policy of the department. It’s been a while, but a typical use of force continuum goes something like this:
1. Officer presence: This line of thinking assumes that a police presence is a deterrent.
2. Verbal command: Officer identifies him/herself and orders the subject to cease illegal activity.
3. Physical contact: If subject fails to comply, and is unarmed, the officer attempts to physically restrain the offender. Depending on the offender, this can be a dangerous step for the officer (see below).
4. Use of non-lethal use of force: If subject evades, or is not compliant (or is stronger or faster than the officer), this is typically the next step.
… on up to use of…
Deadly Force: (Typically, if the officer is concerned for his/her own physical safety, OR the safety of others… believes the subject will cause serious physical injury or death, etc.)
Most policies allow for the police to escalate the continuum if circumstances warrant.
EXAMPLE 1: An officer arrives on scene and observes the subject shooting randomly into a crowd. Skip steps 1, 3 and 4, and take steps to stop the crime (Identify themself and blow the fucker away)
EXAMPLE 2: Officer arrives and subject has a knife/club/sword and is refuses to drop it. Skip steps 1-3, an use non-lethal force.
Then consider, in a typical situation an officer has less than a couple of seconds to make a decision.
See how simple it is?
Okay, not a sporty gal, but if this is really such a big problem… why not build a big clear wall that can’t be jumped over? Or a moat filled with man eating sharks? Because if this really is a big problem then work on denying easy access. To a non-sports fan, this strikes me as similar to fights at hockey games… part of the show.
Tasering seems over the top. It’s also proving to be fatal in some instances, even though it’s being promoted as the “safe and effective” way. And, yeah, it’s being over-used. IMO, tasering should only be used by police if the very next step is reaching for their gun.
“Simply put, it is people like you and our clueless Homeland Security Secretary that make this country less safe.”
A bomb in Times Square does not make “the country” less safe. Simply put, it is people like you and our clueless conservative minority that make this country less safe.
“And, yeah, it’s being over-used. ”
I totally agree. And the potential for abuse is great.
“IMO, tasering should only be used by police if the very next step is reaching for their gun.”
That’s pretty much how it is. At that point, there’s not a whole lot of room for error.
Exactly pandora. I think tasers are used way too much. There’s been a lot of abuse towards people who were non-violent but uncooperative, not to mention the tasering of people in medical distress and children. It seems like there’s a huge disconnect between chasing a guy off the field and tasering him. Yes, why not different walls, a slippery fence, wall alarms, high fines, lifetime bans, etc. before we shoot electricity through someone.
Personally, I think the Tazer has made parenting much easier.
Because, UI… having someone run onto the field is part of the show, and gets endless TV play.
If baseball stadiums really wanted this behavior to end they could end it.
I’m grateful my parents didn’t have one.
…why not build a big clear wall that can’t be jumped over?
When did the southern border come into this? I kid, I kid!
Actually, I have long wondered why there isn’t at least safety netting lining the stands down the foul lines, all the way to the outfield corners. This, though, is more a response to the occassional bad injury suffered by fans via a foul ball or a bat sailing into the stands. I started thinking this back when Jefferies (forgot his first name) played 1B with the Phils. He had a foul ball that careened off a child and it affected him badly. He became a proponent of netting like I described, but no one really gave a rat’s a$$. He also cited fan and player safety (keeping them apart), but it all started after that foul ball. I think he had a good idea. I don’t think a plexi-glass kind of wall, however, would work, especially with an outdoor sport where the majority of games are played in relatively hot conditions. The tempertature of the area in the plexiglass, depending on the sun angle, would likely be roasting; let alone the glare from sun deflection.
Now that we have a Suspect (or 3) what next?
The terrorist is in custody. So what do we do next? Like with the Christmas bomber America got lucky that the device did not work and we are not counting bodies in NYC today.
The underwear bomber had his Miranda rights (courtesy of the Attorney General Eric Holder who made the decision) after one hour of chit-chat with the authorities and immediately stopped talking. We learned that the USA has lived for one year without High Value Detainee Interrogation Unit.
On his first day in office President Obama took away the interrogation authority from the CIA and gave the power to deal with the issue to a task force lead by the AG Holder. After six months of wandering the force came with the idea of High Value Detainees Interrogation Group (HIG) under FBI jurisdiction. Six more months later the unit was not operational at the time when AbdulMutallab was trying to bring down an airplane over Detroit…the HIG is not in place and after the Christmas underwear malfunction we have on our hands another bomb- maker and all our hopes to get intelligence from him depend on the intelligence of the Attorney General. This is the same Eric Holder who stuffed the Justice Department with lawyers engaged in defending terrorists for fun.
from bigbureaucracy.com
Personally, I think the Tazer has made parenting much easier.
Oh…so you did buy one, then, eh?
Smitty, wall, netting… you decide. Me? I’ve never been to a baseball game. I did attend one football game – in a skybox! 😉
“IMO, tasering should only be used by police if the very next step is reaching for their gun.”
That’s pretty much how it is.
Youtube proves you wrong repeatedly.
Because, UI… having someone run onto the field is part of the show, and gets endless TV play.
If baseball stadiums really wanted this behavior to end they could end it.
Actually, P, gotta disagree with you on this. They do NOT want this. In recent history, there have been incidents of on-field coaches and a player who got the $hit kicked out of them by drunken jack-wads on the field, in full display of teams and fans.
This old article discusses two of them.
In one all-too-famous incident, Tom Gamboa, the KC Royals first base coach was attacked by a father-son tandem in Chicago, who administered a quick, but brutal beating of the man. They later claimed intoxication.
Another incident (also in that link) involved an umpire (Laz Diaz) and crazy enough, was another Chicago-Kansas City game. A jack-hole came on to the field and was ready to beat on him, but apparently unknown to that idiot, the umpire is an ex-marine with plenty of training and made that known via a quick and decisive defensive move.
Trust me, they do not want this.
it has only been 6 years since i was a teen ‘crat. (what the hell is GMFB?) and what passes for “kids will be kids” in that short period of time has degraded into dangerous anarchy. When i acted like a jackass (and i did it quite a bit) I freakin’ loitered, or pushed my friend around in a shopping cart. I didn’t statr riots and disrupt the entertainment of 10s of thousands of people. Did you google wilding? probably not, or else you wouldn’t be defending that crap.
UI, simply put. they don’t care if they get banned for life as long as they get on TV. Their parents have already failed AND they are in the expensive seats, so I’m guess a fine wont do much either. As for a wall, catching foul balls, and sitting right at field level is a time honored tradition of baseball that has, at times been abused.
But the incidents of people running onto the field at the ‘Bank have really become a problem. It isn’t just running on the field either. Fans vomiting on children, screaming profanity… not your usual run of the mill heckling… real nasty offensive stuff is being said. I had about 3 different groups of minors come up to me and ask me to buy them beer… one girl offering to… “degrade herself” for A BEER! (no worries, I told her if I had to wait 21 years, so did she… then she called me a fag)
My point is.. I am so happy Philadelphia is a baseball town now. Every single night is a packed house of 90% good natured fans who want to enjoy the game and have good family fun. Is it philly? yes. Are fans here pretty much expected to be a more intense than anywhere else? YUP! (and i proudly contribute to that reputation) But if a few ding-bats getting lit up is what is going to prevent it from becoming the Jersey Shore, I say spark em.
He had his pre-game warning that every fan gets and he was able to see the tazer for long enough before he actually got shocked to make the decision to stop, or keep pushing.
I did attend one football game – in a skybox!
Elitist!!! I bet you went to the beach house for sparkling wine in fluted crystal afterwards, too! 😉
what the hell is GMFB
Give Me (a) eFfin’ Break.
“Youtube proves you wrong repeatedly.”
I was referring to policy. Perhaps I should have been clearer for the contextually impaired. There’s a wide chasm between reality (common practice), and policy (ideal situation).
Geezer, I didn’t answer your question because I reject the hypothetical premise on which it is based.
What, that this will lead to either more or less fence-jumping? What’s hypothetical about that? The only possibility I left out was “no influence,” which you also could have answered.
Are we using the same definition of “hypothetical” here?
The hypothetical part that I reject is that Tasers should be considered as a deterrent or not. You might as well be asking me if I thought summary execution should be considered as a deterrent or not.
now he is saying tazers are the same thing as execution….. THAT is someone you can have a grown up argument with…
One can see there are two camps… Two lines of thought… two different priorities..
Crime and punishment have been discussed since man formed government. The above conversations, carry that discussion over the same ground that has always been covered.
One camp sides with the rebel. The other, sides with authority.
Depending how you personally feel about those two categories, will determine exactly where you will fall in this discussion…
If you think Singaporean society is a good thing, you side with the tazering. This video will cut down on the number of field jumpers…
If you think self expression is why we were put on this planet, then the punishment given, does not match the crime…
Therefore I argue, this question will never be settled on any philosophical grounds or truth. For both sides are right, and both sides are wrong, depending on whose viewpoints or frame you use to approach this issue…
So this becomes a political question, one that is decided on the numbers: … the number who support tasering in the form of justifying order, versus the number of those who believe that was too much punishment for a simple misdemeanor.
In this forum, the excessive punishment trend seems to have the upper hand. That does not make it right. Just right for this moment, this time, this place… In rural Oklahoma, the opposite would be held true…
not really. That was a slanted argument made to look like an objective statement.
“those who don’t want tazing love self expression and freedom”
“those who think tazing was the right move like tyranical government rule and inhabit redneck-land”
I’m all for self expression. but at some point self expression becomes “being a dick” and once you start “being a dick” your self expression isn’t enriching anyone but your own ego. That is what this guy was doing.
By your own definition, a.dick, you should be tazed.
a.price,
” spark’em” just for “being a dick” ???
I remember people “being dicks” years before you were born. and the planet didn’t stop turning because “a dick” wasn’t “sparked”
I’d say you need jesus, or allah… or maybe just lay down and get up when you feel better.
guess who is a Democrat and an Obama donor????