From The Department Of Inappropriate Analogies
Rick Santorum, GOP presidential wannabe:
Potential 2012 presidential candidate and former Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA) doesn’t understand how President Obama could not answer whether a “human life” is protected by the Constitution from the moment of conception: “The question is — and this is what Barack Obama didn’t want to answer — is that human life a person under the Constitution? And Barack Obama says no. Well if that person — human life is not a person, then — I find it almost remarkable for a black man to say, ‘we’re going to decide who are people and who are not people.'”
The GOP presidential debates are going to be this painful, right?
Tags: Abortion, GOP Hypocrisy, racism, Rick Santorum
Catholics are big on slavery analogies for abortion.
My test is simple – declare your fetus as a deduction on your tax return. If you go to jail, the government has spoken: a fetus is not a person.
good call anon.
UI, i hope the GOP primary process makes the American Idol auditions look like Shakespeare
Yes, because racism towards blacks is exactly the same as not treating microscopic, non-sentient lumps of goo as persons under the law. What a dumbass chucklefuck this guy is.
I don’t remember any references to conception anywhere in the Constitution, am I wrong on that? The 14th amendment does, however, begin with the text “All persons BORN or naturalized…” (Emphasis mine.) Draw whatever conclusion you like from that, I guess.
Remember what happened in 2008: the GOP couldn’t agree on who was the most crazy, so they settled on McCain as a compromise candidate. If they run the same play again, who is the compromise candidate this time? Romney? Huck? I’d say Romney, but I don’t know if they can overcome their inherent revulsion for him.
Maybe Jeb at the last minute. By moving right, Obama has certainly set the table for a Republican with a good “sane, moderate conservative” schtick. We’d hardly notice the difference.
Of course, if Obama is polling well they might just go full wingnut and say what the hell, let’s put up our craziest candidate.
Huckabee may not be running. His top aide took a job as Chief of Staff to a freshman Rep. Romney’s probably the compromise candidate if the crazy vote is split. Palin has a clearer shot if Huckabee is gone.
I don’t see how they don’t go full wingnut – given who’s left to vote in their primaries.
Duh, the debate over personhood for slaves is now a debate over the personhood of the unborn.
As for the Presidential debate, I would be horrified if the far left didn’t find it “painful”. There are no liberals left. The left in this country is now a debate between command corporate types and Democratic socialists. Fabianism has won on the left. We have a Fabian President, house minority leader and Senate minority whip.
The Republican Party is not the socialist lite party. Socialists need not apply.
I would like to disagree with Republican David but I don’t understand what he said.
It’s obvious that only Rick Santorum can decide when life begins. His ancestors were always 5/5 a person.
I’m beginning to think that Santorum’s statement (and David’s support of the statement) is the GOPs new minority outreach program.
Don’t get me started on Santorum, pandora. :p
I like Melissa’s idea. Full citizenship for every embryo who can pass the naturalization test.
go to urban dictionary and look up Santorum. It’s pretty accurate.
“The Republican Party is not the socialist lite party. Socialists need not apply.”…. nor moderates, non Christians, minorities with a memory, poor Jews, immigrants, people who arent healthy, people who dont own guns, pragmatists… etc.
Why would any self respecting socialist go anywhere near a GOP HQ. or is “socialist” just the word used to describe the impure?
David, real challenge. If you can tell me what socialism… not Socialism… is, i will never make a snide remark to any of your comments ever again. Keep in mind “Obama’s true personal philosophy, and the movement that will bring down ‘mer’ca” doesnt count.
I find it almost remarkable for a black man to say, ‘we’re going to decide who are people and who are not people.’”
Because everyone knows that the Founders meant for white people to make these kinds of decisions. 🙄
There is a reason why Rick Santorum is out of office. And let’s remind the local culture warriors that this bit of bullshit doesn’t provide a job to anybody.
cass, since when do the culture warriors give a hoot about creating jobs?
It’s more than the culture warriors… the entire group of House Republicans couldn’t care less about creating jobs. Look at their voting agenda.
Ben a socialist rejects individual soverneignity for economic “equality for all, interaction between citizens, and democratic participation” as Nick Johnson of the Fabian Society put it in his “Separate and Unequal-How Progressive Intergration Can Deliver the Good Society” (or something close to that). They believe that major economic decisions should happen at the collective level to acheive more equal outcomes. That happens by a command economy either by control or ownership of the means of production and or distribution.
Of course you know that. I do not know why you are asking me, but there it is. Progressives are just socialists who are willing to follow gradualism instead of revolution as the means to the end.
I may have some disagreements with moderates, but they are nothing when I compare it to the otherside of the spectrum. That is why you all name call and try to paint an extreme picture of conservatives. Moderates are 70% with us and 20% with you so you have to make a lot of noice to distract them and stay in the game. (The remainer just has them on their own).
Maybe we can make a compromise by declaring it 3/5th of a human. Oh yeah, didn’t god “breath” life into Adam and whatnot? So you could argue that a baby doesn’t have a soul until it breaths air the first time. That being said, wouldn’t it be souless flesh until that point?
Santorum has people around him telling him that he could be the President of the United States. Just let that sink in for a second.
What we *really* need is a cage match between Santorum and this fool.
David, i can make sweeping generalizations based on one obscure article too.
I can also do this
Socialism = let’s all take care of each other
Conservatism = fuck you, i’ve got mine. now stop coughing on me. If I get sick, my free market health insurance will put me down.
see how fun that is?
The GOP only reaches out to minorities when they need their lawns mowed, houses cleaned, or dinners cooked. And they make them enter that big tent via the back door.
of course they have their token minorities too. They just make sure they are unpalatable enough to not gain any real power… Keys, Steel, West… etc.
If they DO become a well respected public servant who dares question the boss, they kick em out and disavow… (Powell) very classy repukes, very classy.
Rick who?
ManDogSex.
I was a fetus in nineteen dickety seven. We had to use the word dickety because the North Vietnamese stole our word for sixty. Back to the story.It began with a sperm donor and the womb of two people I have never met. 99,641 of we sperm came charging in to infiltrate the egg. There was wholesale destruction of our assault force. I personally engaged in friendly fire killing twenty thousand or so fellow swimmers. Long story short, I alone took the landing zone. If ever there was a case to abort the mission, this was that case. When I made eggland, I received no rights.The territory was hostile and ungrateful. Where were the blacks fighting for me?
Can’t we ever learn from history? The Egg was Nationalist, not Communist.
You are correct, sir! The facts remain I have no rhythm and I burn rather than tan. Its the likes of Saint Sanatorium that allow my kind to exist.
@Joe – well that story makes two of us!! and there are plenty in the Sussex County Conservative Caucus that wish abortion had been safe and legal way back then….and neither they nor David Anderson would have to deal with my likes…
@Phil – keep working on your spelling and grammar – that would be “breathe” my boy, “BREATHE” not quite as difficult as Mandarin, I know – but you did bring up the spectre of “overloards” so I wanted to make sure you got it right…
@MJ – boy you nailed that one! Especially in Chateau country or down at the shore – OR, if they can make money off their backs….
Kinda wonderin if there will be any calls to 911 after the GOP meeting on Valentine’s Day…..again…or complaints filed – seeing as San(C)torum (sic) is right up their back alley….
I heard David Anderson survived abortion.
Cyclone – ROTFLMAO – at David’s expense of course!
“So you could argue that a baby doesn’t have a soul until it breathes air the first time.”
Babies did breathe air for the first time after being born and still were killed by an abortion “doctor” who stabbed scissors into their necks, severing their spinal cords.
So bring on the sick jokes. Anyone? Anyone?
Sure is a knee slapping story, right?
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70I71G20110119
So bring on the sick jokes. Anyone?
Actually, you are the sick joke. While you are wasting your time here making aggressive remarks you could be out adopting children, feeding families or preventing priests from raping young boys. Go with god baby, but stay out of my government.
Gee Lifer – I am assuming you have adopted an abandonded baby – born drug addicted or with fetal alcohol syndrome
or provided substantial support to keep one out of Foster Care, Right?? I am right, aren’t I…..
you do put your money where your mouth is, right?
hmmmm, crickets
Those poor babies were not born, they were murdered, because idealogues dont think abortion should be safe, legal and affordble, not shoud irth control be and dont care enough about the poor and the disenfranchised to care when they complain about sub-standard care either.
Gosh, you mean none of you guys will come forward to condemn the good doctor?
Here’s another gut buster for those of you who think abortion is really funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6vnOaq7nWU
“Progressives are just socialists who are willing to follow gradualism instead of revolution as the means to the end.”
Lovely. You can peer into the minds of people you don’t know and don’t agree with and tease out their motives? You’re wasting your skills worrying about politics. I suggest you visit the horse races.
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. — Numbers 3:15-16
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. — Exodus 21:22-23
Meatball has proven that according to the Book of Exodus a child in the womb is alive. If a man hurts a woman and she loses her child he is severely punished. If there is intent to harm her like rape, battery, or reckless disregard to continue which proves that was the intent. It is a life for a life. It should also be noted that a person was punished for voluntary manslaughter, but murder with intent was life for life.
I am pleasently surprised that Meatball is bringing Scriptural moral authority into the debate.
As for the numbering, I am not sure what that has to do with the discussion. Please explain what a census count has to do with the debate? If you are wondering why wait for month, it was because of infant mortality in the acient world. It gave a more dependable count for planning purposes.
It is just sad that ancient man could understand the value of life in the womb, but now that we all see and have ironclad proof via sonograms and every bit of medical evidence, some of us wish to deny it.
I think it’s extremely dishonest to argue that ancient man believed life begins at conception. This is a modern concept. In Biblical times many believed in the “quickening” when the fetus first moves. Ancient man also practiced Infanticide.
And if a person doesn’t “believe” in the Book of Exodus…
Using Mr. Delusional’s logic, the Bible proves that it is OK to own slaves and to even kill them under certain circumstances. And the Bible proves that it is OK to stone women who are not virgins. The Bible also proves that it is OK to stone people who do not keep the Sabbath.
There’s no “proving” going on here. Just a validation of the usual small-mindedness.
wait, so if you arent a virgin, the bible says you need to get stoned? i may have to give that thing a second look.
modern christians always cherry pick what parts of the bible they want to follow and what parts “were appropriate when it was written” to my knowledge nothing in the bible was written with a sunset clause.
According to david and the rest, i can go get me a slave and buy a 13 year old wife.
“In Biblical times many believed in the “quickening” when the fetus first moves.”
Not only in Biblical times. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickening
Only would-be theocrats offer scripture to establish the factual bases for abortion law.
Theocrats with blinders on, at that. Abortion and infanticide have been practiced since antiquity. The legality has changed with the society, in direct opposition to the “natural law” theories conservatives love to push.
The Exodus passage cited sets penalty not for abortion by the parents, but by males who, in fighting, cause a miscarriage. One wonders if those who profess to want Biblical law followed to the letter intend to ban clothing made from blended wool and linen.
actually, in ancient jewish culture, if a baby died before 30 days, it was not mourned as a normal person because infant death was so common. As long as we are interpreting what they thought based on a 100Xs translated document with countless variations, I’m gonna go ahead and say they thought life started 1 month after birth.
@Jane – I hope you are reading all this:
according to Faye over on DP – she is not a “white, Middle-calls suburban woman’. What is she then….a poor, minority urbanite?
funny – her FB profile shows a white, middle-aged, middle class woman (rather well maintained, I might add)- so she does know where the salons are) – I wonder which part of the characterization she took umbrage at?
and when “laffter” wrote a rather interesting comment the Delusional One mis-quoted the poster as saying they felt that inner city minority children should be killed before growing up to a life of crima and abuse…
Jane!!! oh Jane!!! are you listending and reading all this?
that site is toxic – this little spin alone should show you that rational thought and reason does not exist over there.
Im my lifetime, babies where not even given birth certificates! If they lived until after the mother was purified in church and they were baptised, then they got a certificate – a baptisimal certificate, not a birth certificate.
So they were not recognized by society until they were recognized by the Church
Comments? David…
@Cass – I like the comment”what if one doesn’t believe in Exodus?” – it does show the mentality over on DP that they are all Conservative Christians with no room for anyone else – so much for the minority outreach they want to do – OUT WITH THE HINDUS, BHUDDISTS, ATHIESTS, ETC! – and this and this alone rules their politics. Good call
Faye lives in the city.
Ben,
In Chinese culture the baby’s birth isn’t celebrated until 100 days. Again, this is for reasons of infant mortality.
david obviously has nothing to say. He has quoted his doctrine of faith….. which, i might add is a whisper-down-the-lane-AND-accross languages…. many of which haven’t been spoken for over 1000 years.. style storybook. There is no possible way whatever version of the book he is calling The Truth is the same to what was written over 3000 years ago by people claiming to speak for God.
That is what the bible is. Man’s approximation of God’s word.
You didn’t even know that you were pregnant until quickening U. I. The Scripture taught conception. Now there is no doubt. Conception is when the unique genetic human being is created. It is when the unique person is formed and starts its life cycle.
As for one person being upset that I praised one of the liberal commenters for recognizing the moral authority of the scripture, get over it. It is perfectly valid and the basis of our common law. I didn’t bring it up, but I will engage any valid argument that I see fit. He/she has as much right to his/her questions being answered as anyone else.
Fay is not a suburbanite.
Sorry guys, bills have to be paid. I could not engage because I was not available. I usually am not except for narrow windows during weekdays and then I usually first check in at DP. In fact I often schedule my posts. I usually do 2 to 4 at a time and schedule them throught the day so there is new content. I am not sitting at my computer. I say that so that you will not be offended in the future if I do not answer you right away.
but not the inner city and I gotta give it to Ben on his last line
Also – most women know they may be pregnant after 2 skipped periods and other physical manifestations…
“quickening” happens at about the 5th month – swollen, tender mammary glands, morning sickness, hightened sense of smell, increased rate of urination etc are all pre-quickening signs of pregnancy.
But it varies from woman to woman – but add that to skipped periods and guess what? 2+2=4
abortifacents (like pennyroyal tea) are over 2000 years old, and oddly had to be used in the first trimester (before quickening) to be effective
so based on what David said – life does not exist biblicaly BEFORE quickening coz the bible doesn’t specifically reference puking and sore boobs…
Did I get that right?
The Scripture taught conception.
That is complete nonsense. The Bible didn’t teach it and the people didn’t practice it. The Founding Fathers didn’t outlaw abortion, and the Catholic Church didn’t either for many centuries.
Infant mortality rates throughout human history make a mockery out of the notion that “life begins at conception.”
It is a modern thought that has taken root among stupid people because stupid people are easy to separate from their money. Look at how funding flows to the anti-abortion industrial complex and how that money is spent and then give me your reading on the morality of the “pro-life” position.
If you need a second data point to prove how morally and ethically bankrupted the American right wing’s anti-abortion position is, try to compile a list of anti-abortion groups that are pursuing the goal of lowering the number of abortions through methods other than chest thumping and un-Jesus like pious hectoring.
How many “pro-life” groups that are fleecing morons like David are putting that money to work by trying to lower the number of unplanned pregnancies by promoting effective sex ed and contraception?
Case closed.
Aoine, I hadn’t even been reading this thread or the safe and legal thread over at DP. Basically because on the subject of abortion I’m a coward who has always been very glad I never have to make any decisions about abortion at any time, or at any level. On this subject, a lot of people see all black and white. I see a lot of gray and I’m always happy I can turn away and think about other things. See, I’m a coward.
But since you addressed me directly, I did read both threads and here’s what I think:
My impression is that everyone on both sites agrees that what went on in Philadelphia is too horrible for most of us to even want to think about. Whew! I’m really relieved we can all agree on that.
I think that David Anderson’s interpretation of what Laffter said was way off-base.
Abortion is literally a life and death issue and, personally, I don’t think the type of Wild West discussions that have been going on on both sites(racism, classism, immigration, adoption, biology, the bible, the constitution, politics, ancient history, etc. etc) are helpful.
What would be helpful? I have no idea. And now I’ll look away again and think about other things. I told you. I’m a coward.
There’s a pro-abortion industrial complex too. They’re also pretty good at separating fools from their money. Just sayin’.
I agree with you though that force and government are poor mechanisms for reducing the demand for abortions. Just like with drugs, a supply will arise to meet that demand. If you outlaw the supply, then the suppliers will be outlaws.
Adoption laws are an interesting place to start addressing demand though. You know some states prohibit homosexual adoption? I’m actually curious what David’s position is on this, though I’m happy to discuss it in a less … hostile … forum if he prefers. Seems like any loving parent(s) would be an improvement over the … alternative.
David made reference to scripture being the wellspring of our common law. This is false. Our common law springs from British common law, which did NOT come from scripture, as scripture was available only to the clergy until the Reformation. But since he thinks common law should be consulted, here’s part of that link I provided above (which I guarantee he didn’t read):
“British legal scholar William Blackstone explained the subject of quickening in the eighteenth century, relative to feticide and abortion:
Life… begins in contemplation of law as soon as an infant is able to stir in the mother’s womb. For if a woman is quick with child, and by a potion, or otherwise, killeth it in her womb; or if any one beat her, whereby the child dieth in her body, and she is delivered of a dead child; this, though not murder, was by the ancient law homicide or manslaughter. But at present it is not looked upon in quite so atrocious a light, though it remains a very heinous misdemeanor.”
So there we have it — a very heinous misdemeanor. Not murder. Not homicide. As I noted above, the legal basis of life has always been a mutable standard, and it has changed in both directions depending on the society. If they want to insist “life” begins at conception, fine. The issue for the law is not when “life” begins, but when “rights” begin.
If they believed what they claim — that abortion is murder — they’d be in full-throated support of contraception. They are not; quite the contrary. Therefore, they don’t believe what they say.
Geezer,
The antis have tried to redefine life so as to make contraception abortion. That just shows the main interest is in controlling sex, not preventing abortion.
That illegal clinic is a lot like clinics in pre-Roe days. Outlawing abortions doesn’t make them stop it just moves it underground. It makes it much less safe.
Enforcing the law helps.
I praised one of the liberal commenters for recognizing the moral authority of the scripture, get over it. It is perfectly valid and the basis of our common law
Recognizing the *moral authority* wasn’t what you did — you claimed that Bible presented *proof*. We ought to trademark this dance you do away from your own words. Tiresome, not especially skillful and particularly clueless.