Egypt
Reports today are that unrest in Egypt is growing. Yesterday Egypt cut off internet access in an attempt to making it more difficult for protests to organize. Today protests are growing despite this:
Protests have erupted in across cities in Egypt following Friday prayers, with angry demonstrators seeking a change in government.
Rawya Rageh, Al Jazeera’s correspondent reporting from the port city of Alexandria, said protesters streamed out of mosques to chant slogans against Hosni Mubarak, the country’s president for 30 years.
Police reponded by firing tear gas in a bid to disperse the angry crowd.
Protests were also reported from Suez and the Nile Delta cities of Mansoura and Sharqiya, the Reuters news agency said quoting witnesses.
Things are changing pretty quickly there. Use this thread to discuss what’s happening in Egypt.
Tags: Egypt
Wow. Also Algeria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Sudan are experiencing some level of protests. I didn’t pay much attention to Tunisia, but now I am paying attention. All seem to be portrayed as grassroots democratic uprisings. So naturally I wonder what was the level of US involvement.
I think a lot of US tolerance for repressive Arab regimes came from a desire to protect the Saudi royal family – if regimes started to fall, eventually the movement would reach Saudi.
So the wave of democratic protests (if that’s what they really are) may be a signal that the US is no longer extending the usual protections to the Saudi royal family. We’ll see as events unfold.
I scoffed when Bush said his invasion of Iraq would lead to a wave of democracy in the region. I’m not sure there is a connection, but you have to wonder. Maybe these protests are Phase 2 of the Iraq occupation, as part of a long term plan organized by US intelligence.
It’s also not sure all these protest movements will succeed. They could all be crushed like bugs by next week and even more repressive measures installed.
Or they could succeed, and the resulting weak governments then overturned by radical movements (see: Hamas).
Either way, the chess board is definitely in the process of being tipped over.
If the US is involved, the object may be to isolate Iran, or to assist an Iranian democratic movement.
It sounds like the protests are entering a crucial stage. The government is cracking down so we’ll have to see whether the protests can keep going or not.
I heard yesterday that Saudi Arabia is trying to limit Facebook and Twitter there. I bet they are really worried.
If these protests are successful in Tunisia and Egypt it could lead to more unrest in Iran I think.
Seeing reports now that in some areas police have evacuated. In other areas police are fighting with protestors. It appears that Mubarak is falling.
This morning’s BBC broadcast relayed the story of a BBC reporter/producer who was beat up by the police. Harrowing stuff. Interesting that Mohammad El-Baredi cut short a holiday to come back to the protests.
The Muslim Brotherhood is making a push for power in Egypt and Jordan.
I’m sure glad that we spent hundreds of millions of dollars over the past ten years reducing our influence in the region through a stupidly conceived and poorly executed vanity war in Iraq.
The Eastern world, it is explodin’,
Violence flaring, bullets loadin’
You’re old enough to to kill,
But not for votin’.
You don’t believe in war,
But what’s that gun you’re totin’?
And even the Jordan River has bodies floatin’
And you tell me over and over and over again my friend
You don’t believe, we’re on the eve of destruction?
The Muslim Brotherhood didnt even enter the fray until yesterday when they started shooting protestors. Second, we know those Teargas canisters were made in the USA, by Combined System International (CSI), on further investigation that would be the Carlyle group. CSI based in Jamestown, Pa. If you getting your information off Msnbc, or the rest of the corporate media, you are getting talking points from a few more interested in protecting Israel and baiting Iran. These demonstrations were spontaneous, came directly from the youth, using Facebook and Twitter, but joined by lawyers, professionals and working class. The brotherhood delivers basic health care service and other necessities Mubareks dictatorship never did. On one of the blogs (middle east) the Brotherhood stated, they “wanted a democracy” in Egypt. So Ish dont know where your getting your information but its not from the people blogging on the ground.
Egypt was bribed with billions of dollars, to keep the gates closed to Gaza, and forced to purchase weapons of mass destruction from the good ole US miltary industrial complex. Only $250 million were supposedly for the people, but of course it went to Mubareks elite friends and family. You might want to read the Goldstone report and Dr. Falks website at Princeton if you want some real information. Also, the Palestinan Papers are a good source if your really that interested.
ElBardei is reported under house arrest! So much for democracy.
The Daily Telegraph and Wikileaks report the US backed the pro democracy uprising. For the last 3years the US secretly backed a group of young well educated youth who attended two seminars in NYC and DC. The group is called the “April 6th Youth Movement”. When one of the leaders went back to Cairo from the summit he was immediately arrested. Others were arrested on the first day of the uprising.
Muslim Brotherhood: Arabs will topple leaders allied with the United States… AP
AMMAN, Jordan (AP) – The leader of Jordan’s powerful Muslim Brotherhood warned Saturday that unrest in Egypt will spread across the Mideast and Arabs will topple leaders allied with the United States.
“The Americans and (President Barack) Obama must be losing sleep over the popular revolt in Egypt,” he said. “Now, Obama must understand that the people have woken up and are ready to unseat the tyrant leaders who remained in power because of U.S. backing.”
Saeed did not specifically name King Abdullah. But he said Jordan’s prime minister “must draw lessons from Tunisia and Egypt and must swiftly implement political reforms.”
{political reforms = sharia law)
“We tell the Americans ‘enough is enough’,” he said.
politico 01/29/2011
Vice President Joe Biden, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and other top administration officials took part in a two-hour meeting about the situation in Egypt, Reuters reports. According to the White House spokesman, President Obama was not at the meeting, but will receive an update from his national security team later today. Obama spent the morning watching his daughter, Sasha, play basketball at the Jane E. Lawton Community Recreation Center in Chevy Chase, according to pool reports
An outrage right? Ishy. Obama should be figuring out how to occupy Egypt, write a new constitution for them all while giving away gobs of money in ways that make it impossible to track who got what.
That’s what we need now. Set up a ten year long clusterfuck. That’s what a ballsy leader would do.
What a dumbass you are.
Fox News 28 January 2011 Amb. John Bolton (Interview)
“…I think after the Friday prayers the Brotherhood brought its people out. That’s why the protests are even more extensive today. That constitutes no doubt about it a direct threat to the military government, and I think the failure of the other security forces to bring the demonstrations under control also now explains the presence of the military.
Let me be clear here, this is not just the Mubarak-family government. The military has ruled Egypt since Gamal Nasser and they over through King Farook.
It’s the military that is the real government and they are not going to go peacefully.
I think the question is whether and to what extent the Muslim Brotherhood and radical Islamists have infiltrated the leadership.
If the military holds firm it’s entirely possible, although bloody, that the government can hold onto power. That doesn’t necessarily mean Mubarak will be in power, but the military will be, and I think that is why this contrast makes it so important for people to understand, this is not a choice between the Mubarak government on one hand, and sweetness and light, Jeffersonian democracy on the other.”
Ish: you said it all when you referred to Fake news. Today the Egyptian people, muslim an christian alike proclaim, “One Egypt One People”. The Muslim Brotherhood has no interest in governing in a theocratic way. They want a secular/pro democracy government. So you think John Bolton is correct in his right wing neo con analysis? Give us all a break. Codepink, Democracy Now and other social justice groups are reporting, as well as blogger David Swanson on the ground. Even CNN had to retract their vile conspiracy theories on the brotherhood.
Those doing the “looting in the museum” are Mubarek’s goon squad. The citizens caught them looting and took their papers…they are the thugs Mubarek sent out to beat up protestors. This is a beautiful thing for democracy all over the middle east.
If John Bolton was right about the Muslim Brotherhood boogeyman, it would broken his perfect record for being wrong about everything. I’m glad to know that his record remains untarnished.
I for one don’t see what would be so blameworthy if the Obama administration came out and said that Mubarak should step down since that is clearly what the Egyptian people want. They can do that without saying who should take his place. The USA could advocate for any form of government that maximizes the freedom and well being of the Egyptian people and which expresses the will of the Egyptian people. Why not clearly side with the populace? That would improve the USA’s image in the region and it would also be the right thing to do.
Who is Omar Suleiman? According to Jane Mayer in her book the Dark Side, Suleiman was head of the Egyptian Intel service and worked directly with the CIA. Anyone who followed the “renditions” know the CIA picked people off the street around the world and many were delivered to Egypt.
Michael Scherer (CIA) who helped setup the Rendition program testified before Congress that while the “US doesnt torture”, and had “assurances” from Sulieman that Egypt wouldnt torture either,his words “werent worth a bucket of spit”. So here we have Mubarek about to be dethroned and his handpicked VP is a known torturer? If the Obama adminstration supports this guy we should all be screaming. Then we have to ask what the Bush and now Obama adminstrations were doing in these rendition programs especially in Eqypt. I’m with you Dana, why doesnt Obama come right out and say the citizens of Egypt no longer support Mubarek and we stand with the the will of the Egyptian people. Dana, I am not sure if that would be enough to improve the USA image anywhere in the middle east but it would be the right step.
I think Obama, Biden and Clinton are more concerned about loosing Egypt whom they bribed with billions to keep the Rafah Crossing closed to Gazans. This is big.
…which expresses the will of the Egyptian people…
According to a recent Pew poll, they are extremely radical even in comparison to Jordan or Lebanon. When asked whether they preferred “Islamists” or “modernizers,” the score was 59% to 27% in favor of the Islamists. In addition, 20 percent said they liked al-Qaeda; 30 percent, Hezbollah; 49 percent, Hamas. And this was at a time that their government daily propagandized against these groups.
How about religious views? Egyptian Muslims said the following: 82 percent want adulterers punished with stoning; 77 percent want robbers to be whipped and have their hands amputated; 84 percent favor the death penalty for any Muslim who changes his religion.
In a democracy, of course, these views are going to be expressed by how people vote. Even if Egypt does not have an Islamist government, it might well end up with a radical regime that caters to these attitudes and incites violence abroad.
There are reasons not to expect Egypt to turn into a moderate, stable, and democratic state: There are few forces favoring this outcome; the rebellion has no organization; Egypt doesn’t have the resources to raise living standards and distribute wealth; extremist ideologies are deeply held and widely spread.
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1486/survey-muslim-nations-middle-east-political-leaders-hamas-hezbollah
here is a summary of Scheuer’s congressional testimony:
To avoid the political risks inherent in interrogating terrorist suspects, much of the work was outsourced to foreign intelligence agencies, of which Egypt’s was one. CIA’s former chief of the Bin Laden Unit, Michael Scheuer, gave this testimony to the House Committee on Foreign Affairs in April, 2007 on the subject of ““Extraordinary Rendition in U.S. Counter terrorism Policy: The Impact on Transatlantic Relations.” “Rendition” is a legal of way of getting other intelligence agencies to do what you don’t want to be seen doing.
The CIA’s Rendition Program began in late summer, 1995. I authored it, and then ran and managed it against al-Qaeda leaders and other Sunni Islamists from August, 1995, until June, 1999.
A.) There were only two goals for the program:
1.) Take men off the street who were planning or had been involved in attacks on U.S. or its allies.
2.) Seize hard-copy or electronic documents in their possession when arrested; Americans were never expected to read them.
3.) Interrogation was never a goal under President Clinton. Why?
–Because it would be a foreign intelligence or security service without CIA present or in control.
–Because the take from the interrogation would be filtered by the service holding the individual, and we would never know if it was complete or distorted.
–Because torture might be used and the information might be simply what an individual thought we wanted to hear.
B.) The Rendition Program was initiated because President Clinton, and Messrs. Lake, Berger, and Clarke requested that the CIA begin to attack and dismantle AQ. These men made it clear that they did not want to bring those captured to the U.S. and hold them in U.S. custody.
1.) President Clinton and his national security team directed the CIA to take each captured al-Qaeda leader to the country which had an outstanding legal process for him. This was a hard-and-fast rule which greatly restricted CIA’s ability to confront al-Qaeda because we could only focus on al-Qaeda leaders who were wanted somewhere. As a result many al-Qaeda fighters we knew were dangerous to America could not be captured.
2.) CIA warned the president and the National Security Council that the U.S. State Department had and would identify the countries to which the captured fighters were being delivered as human rights abusers.
3.) In response, President Clinton et. al asked if CIA could get each receiving country to guarantee that it would treat the person according to its own laws. This was no problem and we did so.
–I have read and been told that Mr. Clinton, Mr. Burger, and Mr. Clarke have said since 9/11 that they insisted that each receiving country treat the rendered person it received according to U.S. legal standards. To the best of my memory that is a lie.
C.) After 9/11, and under President Bush, rendered al-Qaeda operatives have most often been kept in U.S. custody. The goals of the program remained the same, although the Mr. Bush’s national security team wanted to use U.S. officers to interrogate captured al-Qaeda fighters
1.) This decision by the Bush administration allowed CIA to capture al-Qaeda fighters we knew were a threat to the United States without on all occasions being dependent on the availability of another country’s outstanding legal process. This decision made the already successful Rendition Program even more effective.
Those days of course, are over. Guantanamo was not bad as an operational concept. But as a political concept it would never fly. Although rendition had many shortcomings, not in the least the fact that the contractor — like Egypt — could give the US what they want distorted and cherry-picked; and despite the fact that anyone interrogated under rendition would fare far worse than the waterboarding that KSM was subjected to, it had the supreme virtue of keeping all the rough stuff at legal arm’s length from Western politicians. And that of course, was the most important thing of all.
Ishy seems breathlessly invested in some Islamicist group taking over Egypt. Wonder why that is? Because, frankly, this is what the “Democratization” of the middle east really might look like. Hamas has won fair elections as has Hezbollah. And they’ve been able to win because they’ve looked like governing groups interested in the issues of their constituents — not in wholly enriching themselves. I made this point during the Iraq BS when people like Ishy were repeating that Iraq would be the beginning of democracy in the Middle East. You may get democracy all right, but don’t be surprised if the people who get elected are not at all to your liking. Strong man regimes spent a good deal of energy in squashing he good government types, with little push back from Americans. What was left? The Islamicists who gathered up alot of good will and following by standing behind their religion — where it was tougher to crack down on them.
And Michael Scheuer is a known apologist for torture. He lost his shit in a pretty public way when Obama released the torture memos authored by the Bush henchmen. And he has claimed that we need another terrorist attack on US soil so we can get serious about tracking him down again. Bloodthirsty — much like Ishy here.
Apparently, Ishmael doesn’t believe in national self determination. Apparently, he believes that the fate of nations should be determined by the State Department in Washington DC.
Ish isn’t the only conservative who is going to have to reconcile his rhetorical love of democracy with the fact that the majorities in most Muslim countries are anti-US.
no, that just gives us an actual country to go to war with rather than a multi-national gang.
As you all play your parlor games, I leave you all with this thought: How about we just sit back and let things unfold as they may. We need not try to ‘influence’ the outcome of the Egyptian riots in any way.
“82 percent want adulterers punished with stoning; 77 percent want robbers to be whipped and have their hands amputated; 84 percent favor the death penalty for any (one) who changes his religion.”
sounds like the county I live in.
“We need not try to ‘influence’ the outcome of the Egyptian riots in any way.”
No, we needn’t. But don’t kid yourself that inaction won’t be interpreted in various quarters as pushing events toward their outcome. Avoiding committment might work for individual libertarians. It doesn’t work too well for a country with the strongest military on earth.
Remember, DelLib, your intellectual forebears were against going to war with Hitler. Looking back, would you prefer we had just let him take over Europe and then dealt with the aftermath?