Praying for Troy Davis
It is not often that David Anderson and I agree. Today we do. And I think it is important to acknowledge both when we agree and also when, in my opinion, he bucks his party and sticks with his faith.
Here is what he said today:
I am joining a million people across America in praying for a miracle. Troy Davis needs a real trial. He is scheduled to be executed based upon evidence that turned out to be fabricated and witnesses who admitted to lying. Read the story here from conservative stalwart Congressman Bob Barr, a former U. S. Attorney.
There will be no miracle. Today, we will kill an innocent man. Yes, we. Governments represent the people. When it takes action, it does so in our name. Today the State of Georgia will murder Troy Davis on our behalf.
Now, if Troy Davis were guilty beyond any reasonable doubt, that would one thing. Supporters of the death penalty would say it is justice, while critics would still say it is murder. Regarding the death penalty itself, I am a skeptic. Sometimes, I can see the need for the ultimate penalty. Serial killers, mass murderers, terrorists, Hitler. They all deserve death, and the state killing them in case is more a matter of self defense of society. However, when I see the death penalty applied in uneven and discriminatory ways, and to minors and the mentally ill, I find the penalty both ineffective and immoral. But I digress.
Today we know the execution of Troy Davis is immoral. That is the only thing we know beyond a reasonable doubt. And if two people of such divergent ideological opinions such as myself and David Anderson can agree that Troy Davis must not be executed because the evidence against is plainly fabricated or false, then why can’t the Governor of Georgia?
So pray for a miracle if you must, but I am going to pray for forgiveness, because I have no faith in the heart or mind of Governor Nathan Deal.
Well, the stories say that the evidence against Mr Davis was fabricated, or that witnesses were lying, but he’s had appeal after appeal, and the courts don’t seem to see the same thing. Mr Davis shouldn’t be executed, simply because we shouldn’t be executing anyone, but I have to wonder why, if the evidence of his innocence is so strong, none of the courts have been able to see it.
The SCOTUS once issued an ruling that said actual innocence is not necessarily enough to over-turn a verdict.
The courts say it, so it must be true huh Dana?
Im willing to bet there are quite a few court decisions that you would disagree with…. id go so far as to say that there are court decisions that you think are flat out wrong and should be overturned.
It doesnt surprise me that you are pro-death penalty. Im certainly not 100% against it. we use it too much, but that isnt the topic of today. Today a man who’s guilt is not a 100% certainty is going to be killed.
sleep well Gov Deal. Say hi to Foul-well when you get to Hell.
Premeditated Murder in Slow Motion: The next innocent person to be murdered by the state could be you.
Small correction. The governor does not have the power in the state of Georgia to stop an execution. It’s all on the state parole board.
http://valdostadailytimes.com/opinion/x221223438/What-We-Think-Governor-cannot-stay-execution
“he’s had appeal after appeal, and the courts don’t seem to see the same thing.”
Because they don’t want to see it. The American legal system is an adversarial system; it is not interested in finding truth, but in accepting either the defense or prosecution version of events.
Think of it like an NFL coach’s challenge: IN this case, the judge is not going to toss out a conviction absent conclusive evidence Davis didn’t do it. There is no such evidence, just recanted testimony in an already shaky, circumstantial case.
That is the problem Geezer, they should give him a new trial. The evidence upon which the original conviction occurred was tainted and two main witnesses are admitted to have been lying when they said they heard him confess.
The appeals court recognized that but said that he would need to “prove his innocence” in order to overturn the trial. There is no physical evidence or weapon so how can he prove it? He can’t get DNA off a weapon no one but the murderer knows the location of unless of course he did it. In other words if he is innocent, only the murderer could prove him not guilty. Wait, someone confessed to the crime. Could we try them?
Something is dead wrong. It is more like a sophisticated lynch mob than the great American Justice system and regardless of our ideology, we need to stand up not only for poor Mr. Davis, but our very system of justice. It is being horribly corrupted before our eyes.
I agree with you completely, David. I was just explaining how it was possible for the appeals court judge to ignore such evidence.
Repub David, anybody who supports the death penalty, as you do, has the blood of this man and all the others murdered by the state on their hands. Troy is only one of many who have been, or are going to be, murdered by the state under highly questionable circumstances of so-called justice. And you’re far more likely to be executed in this country if you’re poor or have the same skin color as yours.
Your prayers for this man as you worship the cross of Roman executioner are hollow, indeed. Tell me, David, who would Jesus execute?
The LORD never challenged the validity of the death penalty as a concept even when he was subject to it. The Bible says the land is polluted by innocent blood until the price is paid by the blood of the guilty. I would say murderers.
I am fine if you disagree. Good people do including the Holy Father. I think however you are being shallow if you say that we can’t agree on the concept of justice being served because we disagree over the penalty that is just. That does not serve the cause of justice well does it?
I expected to take a little heat from both elements of the right and left on this one for different reasons. I am glad anonone did not disappoint me.
Even murderers will die after life in prison. That’s not enough for your blood-thirsty ilk, David? So, I’ll ask again, who would Jesus execute?
Who would Jesus execute?
He just did:)
Tommy C.
Closet thinks that killing people is the only legitimate function of government.
BTW – Closet thinks that Jeebus approved of capital punishment because he consented to it. I’m not sure that logic holds up if you look at it in the entire context of Jeebus’ teachings.
Does Closet he think that the state is “without sin” and is therefor worthy to wield this punishment? I kind of doubt it.
Does Closet think that the state’s ability to kill overrides the 6th Commandment? My bible class taught that Jeebus “acknowledged the importance of the Ten Commandments but taught that God’s people must look for righteousness in their hearts, not in strict observance of the law.”
I guess the 6th is one of the you can have both ways if you are a Christian like Ole Closet.
You know how they say “If you’re for higher taxes, just send in a check?”
Well, if you are for capital punishment…
Not to mention:
“Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.”
But christianists like closet don’t believe in any parts about forgiveness. They only believe in blood.
Milagros anyone?? execution delayed by SCOTUS
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/21/troy-davis-execution-georgia_n_974463.html#liveblog
on the upside, Lawerence Brewer’s execution was NOT delayed.
I second that, SB. May James Byrd rest in peace. If only the murderers of Matthew Shepard had received the same sentence.
I guess you two would be clapping for more executions, just like the Republicans.
There is no “upside” for state executions. None.
I tend to agree with A1 on this, but as I said in the original post above, I am not one who says the death penalty is never appropriate. I would kill Hitler or Bin Laden every day of the week and twice on Sunday if I had the chance. But those instances where the death penalty is appropriate (mass murderers, terrorists (which is redundant)) are rare.
But opposition to the death penalty is not one of those issues, A1, where a line can be drawn in the sand between what is progressive, or liberal, and what is not. MJ and Socialist Ben are not conservative blue dogs. They are progressives too. So please shove the purity.
It isn’t about your so-called “purity.” Executions are cold-blooded premeditated killings that kill both the innocent and the guilty. They have nothing to do with self-defense, like killing a Hitler or a Bin Laden might, if you were unable to capture them alive. They have everything to do with bloodlust and vengeance.
What Lawerence Brewer did was despicable beyond words, but what the state did to him was also despicable. There is no upside nor anything to applaud.
And, Del Dem, being for abolition of the death penalty is the liberal progressive position.
Ok, I agree with the first comment. The second comment, not so much. This comment thread disproves that, unless you really think only you are the true progressive anywhere. My only point re “purity” is that it doesn’t serve any purpose to say MJ and Ben are acting like Republicans.
I dont like the idea of executing people. That said, some people just cannot be “rehabilitated” or “corrected”
“Rehabilitate” implies they were fit to live in society once upon a time – some folks never were – I.e. Ted Bundy. the BTK killer, John Wayne Gacey etc…
these people are seriously flawed, not mentally ill or deficient, flawed, there is a difference. and they cannot be “rehabilitated” – they will kill or rape or molest again, and they admit it
THOSE are the people we need to determine if it is worth it as a governemt to terminate. Is that who we are as a nation?
What cracks me up is to see the right-wing, pro-lifers, be so blood-thirsty if someone is on death row or has no health insurance – the “let them die” crowd….and they don’t seem to see the dichotomy in this.
For the record, I am pro-choice, and pro-death penalty (in cases involving serial offenses and where there is no doubt of guilt and the defendant is of sound mind) and I make NO apologies for it, and I’m progressive. There is no purity on a viscereal issue.
try spending years of looking at murdered/abused victims, including children and you may feel the same way. The ones that survive are the hardest to deal with, their suffering never ends.
Aoine, nobody can tell for certain who can be “rehabilitated” and who cannot, but I agree that there are many criminals that should not be allowed back into a free society. But those who have committed capital crimes should be isolated from society in a way that is humane both to them and also protects others against them. This is absolutely possible.
If you have compassion for the children of murder victims, then why do you support the state murdering people, including innocent people?
Del Dem, cheering for executions is what we saw a room full of republicans do. Claiming that there is an “upside” to killing Lawerence Brewer for the murder of James Byrd is equivalent.
By the way, Aoine, SM, and MJ, you might be interested in learning that “Ross Byrd, the only son of James Byrd, has been involved with Murder Victims’ Families for Reconciliation, an organization that opposes capital punishment. He has campaigned to spare the lives of those who murdered his father and appears briefly in the documentary Deadline about the death penalty in Illinois.”
And A1, the rest of James Byrd’s family has been waiting for this day and is content that justice was served.
There is no way, IMO, that you can rehabilitate someone who ties a human being to the back of a pickup truck with chains and drags him for miles, tearing his body apart that law enforcement first thought it was road kill. And the only reason it was done was because the victim was Black.
There is no way, IMO, that you can rehabilitate someone who takes a person, pistol whips them until they are within an inch of their life and then ties them to a fence in 30 degree weather, and leaves them to die. And when the victim is found, it is first thought that they resemble a scarecrow. And the only reason it was done was because the victim was Gay.
I make no apologies for supporting the death penalty in these two cases. And it in no way makes me any less progressive than anyone else.
I think you know where you can stick it, A1.
From the Washington Post – “Hopefully, today’s execution of Brewer can remind all of us that racial hatred and prejudice leads to terrible consequence for the victim, the victim’s family, for the perpetrator and for the perpetrator’s family,” Clara Taylor, one of Byrd’s sisters, said.
She called the punishment “a step in the right direction.”
“We’re making progress,” Taylor said. “I know he was guilty so I have no qualms about the death penalty.”
If the son of Mr. Byrd wants to forgive the perpetrator of the death of his father – that is his choice.
I don’t walk in his shoes – he is free to do whatever feels right to him – and I won’t critize him for it. He is the one mainly affected.
I, OTOH, do not feel the need to forgive, forget or look the other way. That is my right as a member of the human race.
Thank you for the FYI anonone, but I already knew. Forgiveness programs, Reconcilliation and Restorative Justice are not programs I belive in, for me.
If you want to hold hands with and sing “KUMBYYA” with people like Brewer – go right ahead.
please re-read what I said earlier – including my codicil regarding WHO I believe should be executed..and WHO i have compassion for – I belive it was MURDERED children.
Innocent people are definately outside my parameters for ececution, as well as a few others
Please be through before you post back to me, I hate repeating my self
You can choose to be on the side of those who seek vengeance and more bloodshed. You can be on the side that believes that killing innocent people is just the price you have to pay to have the death penalty (because that is the truth and the reality of our justice system). You can’t support the death penalty without accepting the fact that our justice system isn’t perfect. If you have the death penalty, innocent people are going to be murdered by the state; there’s no way around that.
I will be on the side of Ross Byrd, fighting to end this inhumane and dehumanizing practice. America is the only Western Nation that executes people for criminal behavior. The only one. Like those who fought for slavery and those who fight against Gay Rights, you and your fellow death penalty supporters are on the wrong side of history.
Join the right side of history, and help abolish this barbaric paractice.
Let’s hear it for the lefteabagger. A1.
Oh and YES – one CAN tell who is likely to re-offend and who is not.
it is not a perfect science, however, it is pretty good
One clue is when they tell you that they will re-offend, and many do just that because they realize what they are.
your experience in criminality and abnormal psych seems to be minimal.
If you read my post, I was quite clear: “those who have committed capital crimes should be isolated from society in a way that is humane both to them and also protects others against them.”
You don’t have to become a murderer to stop murder. Life in prison should mean life in prison. We’re the only western nation that uses capital punishment. It is shameful.
see vengance is not what the Death penalty is about. not at all. the state does not seek vengance.
Society seeks to rid itself of those that cannot be let loose in society. If they are incapable of proper behaviour on the outside, then they are likely to offend on the inside
So why should we, as a society, leave a molester/rapist/murderer free among others in the penal system whose crimes are not as severs. OR put other killers, not likely to re-offend in the path of a psychotic killer?? Is that not a death sentance for the other inmates as well?? Have you no pity for the other less violent criminals?? don;t they have rights too??
and dont give me the who sad story about 24/7 solitary/isolation – as that is even more inhumane. Do you really know the penal system – or is this some pie in the sky feel good, dont kill them ideal
reality is real and reality bites!
do you know what 10-20-30-years in solitary is like??
it is worse psychologicaly speaking than your horrible lethal injection.
we are social beings – isolation drives us slowly insane, a fate worse for our psyches than death. Utimately sitting in a corner, eating our own feces…or smeering it on the wals – hallucinations etc.. that’s what it looks like
It does seem that your psych background is not based in the realities of the human animal
Let’s hear it for the incredible insight and intellectual depth of MJ. How do you come up with these witty names like “lefteabagger?”
Do you really think that wanting to abolish the death penalty is a far-left position? Or did you just realize what a foolish position you’re in trying to defend the death penalty?
I guess that you can look to places like Iran, where they hang people for being gay, or China or Saudi Arabia to find good arguments to support your position.
Have fun with your name calling!
As I said quite clearly, Aoine, America the only western nation that still uses capital punishment. And it is applied primarily to poor people and people of color. And it kills innocent people.
The experiment has been done; the death penalty adds nothing to the criminal justice system of free societies. All the other western nations do well without it; we can, too. You’re just on the wrong side of history.
The discussion about how we treat prisoners is an entirely different subject, but, as I said, I believe prisoners should be treated humanely but also not allowed to be a danger to others, even those that cannot be rehabilitated.
The SCOTUS just gave the go-ahead to execute Troy Davis.
11:08: Troy Davis, an innocent man, was murdered by the state of Georgia.
The only way to stop this from happening again and again is to end this barbaric practice.
and there should be no joy in that fact – it is sad, truely sad.
i only hope that at some point in time they prove beyond doubt that he was indeed innocent, if he was. And those responsible for his death have to live with what they did.
then maybe if there is any question of guilt there will not be an execution or rush to finalize the penalty.
Don’t get me wrong anonone – I am not blood-thirsty at all. I am just not adamantly opposed to the death penalty.
But a travesty of justice is just that.
It was not a “travesty of justice.” It was the cold-blooded killing of an innocent man.
If you aren’t adamantly opposed to the death penalty, then you cannot be adamantly opposed to more innocent people being murdered, either. Because as long as the death penalty is practiced, the states will kill more innocent people. And more poor people. And more black people.
I encourage you to become adamantly opposed to the death penalty, and to let Markell know.
Don’t let what just happened in Georgia happen here.
I don’t know that he WAS innocent
I don;t know that he WAS guilty
I dont have the facts of the case – just the opinions of others – and that is not good enough for me to form my own opinion
I am not adamently opposed to the death penalty and doubt I ever will be
I am more opposed to wars and policis that kill innocent men, women and children in countries half-way across the world and right on our own southern border- hundreds of them, EVERY DAY
But you have been all crickets about that….those deaths are also state-scantioned murder but one man, in Georgia, gets all the attention
Poor men, women and children that die in desert crossings or drown in arroyos every year go unmentioned. People that flee their homes because of the violence our appitite for drugs causes and our trade and economic policies cause.
and this goes on, day after day, year after year – THOUSANDS of them – THOUSANDS
yet the death of one man, whose innocence/guilt is questioned becomes the cause celeb –
so tell me, where is the JUSTICE in that?
The topic of state sanctioned killing by the military is not part of this thread, hence, the crickets. Those are outrageous, too, but they only add to the injustice of the death penalty when you have capital punishment for some killers and medals for others.
Actually, asshat, we’ve been using lefteabagger here for quite awhile. And you present yourself here as the Oracle of the Left, lecturing us about what is and isn’t the “progressive-liberal” position on issues. Who the Hell appointed you to that position?
He did.
When i was in high school, I did a report on Jilius and Ethel Rosenberg. (the people executed for treason after being convicted of spying for the USSR and essentially getting them “the bomb”)
My report was in their defense. That testimony and evidence at the trial was not sufficient to convict and that the whole thing was a part of the Red Scare/ anti semitism/ anti immigrant feeling of the day.
Driving to school the day it was due, NPR (yeah, i listened to NPR in high school) ran a story about Ethel’s brother, David Greenglass and how on his death bead earlier that week had not only admitted to lying under oath, but also that yes, his sister and borther-in-law were in fact the ones who stole nuclear secrets and allowed them to get to Russia.
just thought that might be an interested anecdote in this thread
Indeed. In my mind that only strengthens the argument against the death penalty. Why? Given that human beings, with all their predispositions to lie when it suits them, are an integral and vital part of any justice system, isn’t that justice system prone to mistake and/or manipulation. And given that, shouldn’t the death penalty be reserved for only those whose death would truly be in society’s best interest and self death, i.e. Hitler, Bin Laden, Jeffrey Dahmer, Timothy McVeigh, etc.
“If you aren’t adamantly opposed to the death penalty, then you cannot be adamantly opposed to more innocent people being murdered, either.”
Says who? You? You are given to these absolutist pronouncements, aren’t you? Absolutists are no more pleasant on the left than on the right.
Yes, Geezer. Anonone is given to absolutist pronouncement. He is our purist.
If the death penalty, and the inevitable consequence of killing innocent people, is so critical to criminal justice, why is America the only western country that practices it?
And what are the problems in the other western countries that are related to their abolition of the death penalty? And before you answer that question, take a look at the per-capita murder rates in other western countries compared to the U.S.
Geezer, use of the death penalty means that innocent people are going to be killed by it. You cannot separate support of the death penalty from the inevitable consequences of that support.
MJ wrote:”we’ve been using lefteabagger here for quite awhile.” Which is why I was sarcastically commenting on the utter lack of originality and relevance of your comment. When all you can do is call names, you have lost the argument.
Oh please, is that all you’ve got? That’s just such a tired, old, used-up statement and coming from you, it has even less traction than a bald tire on a trash truck.
“use of the death penalty means that innocent people are going to be killed by it.”
Not if its application is confined to those whom we are certain committed the crime(s). I believe the death penalty is applied far too often, but I am not completely against it. For example, what should the punishment be for an inmate serving life who then kills another inmate in prison? Should that one be a freebie? I also have no problem with executing a life convict who reaches out through associates to try to have someone killed (as Tom Capano allegedly did). And, while I am more reluctant in cases such as Brian Steckel (sp?), the man who raped a woman and set fire to her apartment, burning her to death, and then sent taunting letters from prison to the victim’s mother, I will not go to the mat to keep such a person alive.
“You cannot separate support of the death penalty from the inevitable consequences of that support.”
The consequences are not inevitable just because you say they are. Otherwise, I believe I just did.
Geezer, you can wish for some kind of perfect application of the death penalty, but the reality is that the death penalty is applied capriciously and that innocent people are killed by it. You can wish for some alternative version of reality that “separates support of the death penalty from the inevitable consequences of that support,” but that simply isn’t going to happen as long as we have an imperfect system of justice.
The reality is that the consequence of killing innocent people is inevitable, regardless of how hard you try to distance yourself from that reality. It happened last night and it will happen again. And it will continue to happen even under the circumstances that you describe.
Furthermore, in every instance that you cite, there are alternatives to death penalty in preventing or deterring the behaviors.
Finally, none of the death penalty supporters here have been able to answer the questions that I posted at 8:22 regarding the fact that America is the only western country that still has a death penalty.
“in every instance that you cite, there are alternatives to death penalty in preventing or deterring the behaviors.”
Really? What’s the fitting punishment for a convict serving life who commits murder?
I have never said it was critical to apply the death penalty, so I have no answer for your question.
Now let me explain this from a pragmatist’s view: If you are up for a capital case, you are asked if you oppose the death penalty. If you do, you are disqualified from serving on the jury. Because I can honestly say that I do not oppose the death penalty, I would not be disqualified on that basis.
My position has been carefully crafted to reflect all that.
I’m with A1 on this. The death penalty is inherently imperfect. It is inherently barbaric (no matter how humanely carried out). It is inherently racially biased. It is unnecessary and it should have no place in a society that believes that it is the greatest on earth.
As for it not being vengeance, that is a laugh. It is not a deterrent nor does it rehabilitate. It is purely a punishment for a crime, which is vengeance.
Years ago I read an article in The Atlantic (I think) that made a strong case for the death penalty as vengeance. As I recall it wasn’t bloodthirsty but used careful arguments and logic. It was a disturbingly appealing argument.
Yes, Republicans have crafted arguments like that about tax reform, same-sex marriage, war in Iraq, the PATRIOT Act and 2 dozen other issues through the years.
I think the broader question here… esspecially to critics and … againsters?.. of the death penalty is, how do you deal with a Lawerence Brewer? or a John Wayne Gacey? What can a civilized society do when someone who is motivated by hate and evil decides to act on those desires. A white supremacist who kills a black person and is lionized by fellow white trash. Is it justice to keep them in a safe room for the rest of their life where they are given health care and 3 squares a day? No it isnt the good life, but they can live knowing that what they did mattered. They are (reasonably more than on the outside) safe from retribution.
a1 and other “no death penalty for any crime” types. What if any solution do have for that?
I dont have one. a painless injection into the arm of someone who caused much more pain and trauma hardly seems just….. at the same time im firmly against torture of anyone. it’s a toughie.
It quite clearly is vengeful. Doesn’t change my position.
isnt ALL punishment vengeance? you wrong a person or society and you pay a price to counter balance that wrong? if you defraud a person of millions of dollars and they sue you for damages and get a bigger settlement than the dollar amount you stole, have they not taken revenge?
Im with the opinion that some cannot be rehabilitated. What kind of a “noble society” makes the family of a murder victim pay for the meals and well being of the person who killed their loved one? (taxes)
Our prison system is ridiculous. kids with a few ounces of pot are treated the same as rapists and murderers while greedy pigs legally steal people’s homes, retirement funds and futures all while blaming the poor.
Having a death penalty in the US is misguided and tragic. The Innocence Project have already proved 264 on death row were innocent. Putting one innocent person to death is nothing more than State Sanctioned murder. We need to join the civilized nations around the world, who do not use it. Putting a person in prison for life, is much more punishment than just putting them to death. Prisons in the US are nothing but modern day gulags…in Delaware Sussex VOP, Gander Hill and Smyrna are our gulags.Vengenance is mine sayeth the lord. End the death penalty all over this country. Do we have any delaware legislators ready to put up a resolution to end the death penalty in Delaware?
A man in Texas was put to death last night. He was convicted of dragging that black guy behind his truck which beheaded him. I am opposed to putting him to death too. The Texas Gulag for life would have given him the rest of life to recall what he did, and why he is in there. Thats the punishment I can go with.
SB – as for money, it is usually more expensive to execute a convict than it is to imprison him.
There are plenty of societies around the world that don’t have the death penalty. They keep their prisoners in prison and don’t let them out. Not executing them doesn’t mean that I think they can be rehabilitated. There are some that cannot be rehabilitated, I am certain. Gacy, Brewer, Manson, etc. could spend the rest of their lives behind bars without possibility of parole.
But what we see here is that the death row inmate is no one’s special interest, so it is easy to say you “are tough on criminals” by limiting their rights to appeal or the ability for a Governor to commute a sentence. The result is the predictable outcome of people being executed on flimsier evidence and with fewer paths to exoneration.
oh, the death penalty cost is the cruelest part.
You’re killing someone. you are ending their life. How does giving them a physical, sedatives etc make any kind of sense. why not take them out back and shoot them if that is what you are going to do?
I cant be definitively for or against. I cant abolish it entirely, because the fact the people like Manson are still conscious sickens me. I cant be totally for it because of places like Texas and Georgia who seem to be fine with killing any old black guy to serve as “justice” for a dead white person.
“The Texas Gulag for life would have given him the rest of life to recall what he did, and why he is in there. ”
anon, the scum bag in question was proud of what he did. He considered it a good thing to have done. allowing him to live with that pride is a horrible thing to do.
allowing him to live with that pride is a horrible thing to do
and yet that is exactly what they would do in many civilized countries. The point is that the guy won’t be on the street. He won’t be doing it to anyone else. He won’t be appearing in parades. He’ll sit in his cell and rot.
So I’ll say it again, as LG and others have also pointed out: No other western country practices capital punishment and they also deal with the same problems that we do in our prisons, including repeat psychopathic killers.
Geezer, maybe there isn’t a suitable punishment for a lifer who allegedly kills again in prison. What we can do is place them in a prison under humane circumstances where they don’t have that opportunity again. You should also recognize that prison crimes can be notoriously hard to solve, and that prison populations are as likely to lie about a crime in their midst. There is no reason to believe that an innocent person couldn’t be wrongly convicted of a capital crime just because that crime occurred in a prison.
Your proposal to only execute those “whom we are certain committed the crime(s)” would require courts essentially deciding on two levels of guilt, something that would be unjust, untenable, and unworkable.
The death penalty serves no purpose other than to satisfy the blood lust for vengeance and feed a primitive concept of justice for those who support it, as supporters like SB and MJ clearly demonstrate.
“There is no reason to believe that an innocent person couldn’t be wrongly convicted of a capital crime just because that crime occurred in a prison.”
You are correct, there isn’t. As usual, as a pragmatist, I am trying to juggle competing interests to come up with the best answer. My point about being a non-absolutist — beyond its usefulness in qualifying me for a capital-punishment jury — is that in some cases, keeping a murderer alive does more harm than good. I refuse to swear allegiance to ANY principle other than the one that says absolutist principles are crutches for those who don’t care to deal with life on a case-by-case basis.
“Your proposal to only execute those who “whom we are certain committed the crime(s)” would require courts essentially deciding on two levels of guilt, something that would be unjust, untenable, and unworkable.”
We already do that, as not all who are guilty of first-degree murder get the death penalty. I am proposing more clear-cut rules that would make it harder to apply the penalty. In a country with a 62-34 split in favor of execution, I am willing to fight for (as KWS would say) baby steps instead of swallowing whole.
“The point is that the guy won’t be on the street. He won’t be doing it to anyone else. He won’t be appearing in parades. He’ll sit in his cell and rot.”
Among the things Tom Capano did while rotting in his cell was reach out to other inmates to solicit a contract killing on one of the witnesses against him.
Geezer, every other western country deals with the same problems without the death penalty and the inevitable execution of innocent people. We can, too.
You write that “is that in some cases, keeping a murderer alive does more harm than good.” Which murderers those are is, of course, entirely subject to opinion, often based on race or means. Those black people are scary, you know.
In any way, shape, or form, the death penalty is going to be used against innocent people as it was last night. It is time to end it.
“Those black people are scary, you know.”
Brian Steckel was white.
And I still reject your absolutism. As always, it’s a handy way to excuse yourself from thinking.
“In any way, shape, or form, the death penalty is going to be used against innocent people as it was last night.”
Get rid of it, and life in prison will be used against innocent people instead. Do you think anyone would have rallied to Troy Davis’ cause if he faced “only” life in prison?
Your inability to consider points of view other than your own, and to saddle up your high horse doing it, is tiresome. You’re a child.
The death penalty is an absolute thing. You either have it or you don’t. You’re either for it or against it. There is no middle ground. If you’re for it under any circumstances, you’re for it. Period.
I am against it under any circumstances. Period.
And people do rally to peoples’ causes when they face time in prison for crimes that they did not commit, so that argument is dismissed easily. Had Troy Davis not been executed, there would have been people fighting for his freedom, damn right. The Innocence Project, for example, doesn’t focus on just capital crimes. You can look it up.
And, speaking of “excusing yourself from thinking,” I see that you have now resorted to name-calling, ironically calling me “a child.” Funny, Geezer. You must be proud of yourself.
And here’s the company you keep:
Top death penalty nations, in order of executions carried out in 2010:
1. China
2. Iran
3. North Korea
4. Yeme
5. USA
6. Saudi Arabia
7. Libya
8. Syria
9. Bangladesh
10. Somalia
“The death penalty is an absolute thing. You either have it or you don’t. You’re either for it or against it. There is no middle ground.”
As I said, your absolutism makes you a child. It’s not name-calling. I like children. Adults who think like children, not so much.
If I wanted to call you a name, I’d go with “asshole,” which is one you prove every single day.
Meanwhile, you have resorted to intellectual laziness yet again, comparing anyone who doesn’t agree with you with despotic tyrants — the sleaziest form of ad hominem attack.
Asshole.
I just put a list up of countries that use the death penalty. You want to keep the USA on that list. I absolutely don’t, and I don’t apologize for that.
Despotic tyrants kill innocent people. So does the USA, as the world saw last night. I want to stop that by ending the death penalty in the USA and the world. You clearly don’t.
I like children, too, but I teach mine not to call other people names. Apparently you missed that lesson in your house.
You might look up what an “ad hominem attack” is before you accuse other people of such things, because you do them constantly. Glass houses and stone throwing, you know.
While absolutism and purity are fool’s errands, so is perfection. The death penalty relies on the perfection of the system. In our justice system, we have plenty of examples where we recognize the imperfection of the system. In most of those cases, at least in theory, the tie goes to the accused. Jury split 11-1, no conviction. Is there reasonable doubt? Let him go.
But once we get into the real-life application of our justice system, we find public defenders sleeping in court while a black man is sentenced to death. We find wealthy white folks like Tom Capano avoiding the death penalty. We have O.J. walking free (at least for a while).
The system is imperfect, so it doesn’t make sense to apply an absolute punishment to the system.
“I like children, too, but I teach mine not to call other people names. Apparently you missed that lesson in your house.”
Yes, I already know that you have the highest morals, and highest horse, on Delaware Liberal.
Makes you the highest asshole, too.
“I want to stop that by ending the death penalty in the USA and the world. You clearly don’t.”
BUt you couldn’t even acknowledge, let alone signal understanding of my points, because you are too busy being the most moral person here. You are the reason most people hate liberals. I resent it, because you’re nothing but what MJ calls you — the leftist equivalent of the “ruled by principles” crowd that calls itself the Tea Party.
You clearly can’t understand any argument that divides any issue into more than two camps. That’s why I say you’re a child.
Your holier-than-thou bullshit is why I say you’re an asshole. And I taught my children to kick the shit out of people like you, because you’re the most dangerous kind of person out there. Tyrants always start out as ideologues.
“We find wealthy white folks like Tom Capano avoiding the death penalty.”
His wealth had nothing to do with it. He was taken off death row by a Supreme Court decision in an entirely separate case.
The details almost don’t matter to my point. I suspect that if you polled 1000 Delawareans and asked them the reason that Capano was commuted to life in prison, they will tell you it’s because he had a better lawyer.
But it doesn’t make one bit of difference, because we all know that white justice is different from black justice in the US.
That should say “999 of them would say…”
Geezer, if you review our comments in this thread, you will see that I responded to as many of your points as I could. Just because a person disagrees with your opinion does not mean that they don’t understand your opinion.
However, after reading that “I taught my children to kick the shit out of people like you, because you’re the most dangerous kind of person out there,” I realize that I am talking to someone who has really gone looney-tunes and there is no longer any point for me to engage with you on this topic.
I hope you feel better soon.
“The details almost don’t matter to my point.”
I think what you meant was:
“I didn’t bother to do any actual research to make my point, so I am basing my analysis on my faulty memory and incorrect assumptions, just like the people I oppose. But the fact that I’m on this side of the fence makes me morally superior. So I’m right.”
Let me further amend my remarks and say that the reason that Capano had his sentence commuted was because he was sentenced to death by a non-unanimous jury, which could quite easily be attributed to better defense counsel. A public defender for a poor, black man would likely have put up much less of a fight against the sentence.
“I hope you feel better soon.”
Fuck you, shitbag. “You either agree with me or you’re wrong” is your constant stance — one that is guaranteed to close off discussion. I understand you a whole lot better than you’ll ever understand anyone else.
“A public defender for a poor, black man would likely have put up much less of a fight against the sentence.”
No coherent argument was ever offered at trial against the death penalty, despite the fact that the supposed qualifying conduct — “careful planning” of the murder — was prima facie laughable. As someone else noted, not even a moron would plan to kill someone in his own house, necessitating the removal of bulky items like rugs and a sofa. It was his attempt to hire a contract killer that should have put him on death row.
The sentence was vacated years after the fact.
Seriously, I do hope you feel better soon. We usually have some interesting discussions until you go down the “you’re an asshole because you insist on defending your opinion” route. “Fuck you, shitbag” is a sad place for you to end a discussion, but needing to write that is who you just are, I guess.
Geezer – so are you suggesting that if a black man with a public defender had been convicted of killing Ann Marie Fahey and having his brother help him dump her body, that he wouldn’t have been sentenced to death because “not even a moron would plan to kill someone in his own house, necessitating the removal of bulky items like rugs and a sofa”?
Because I find that laughable.
Yes, it is who I am. Sorry. I get very frustrated by your inability to acknowledge the difference between discussion and a debate club. You have to “win” every argument. OK, you win. The death penalty is barbaric, as practiced it is arbitrary and serves no purpose other than vengeance.
What I am arguing is that it COULD be applied in a more sparing, more reasoned manner. And that I will continue to push for that because, if I just come out against it wholesale,
a) my opinion will be dismissed by the 64% I am trying to persuade, and
b) my potential place on a capital-case jury will be forfeited to someone without any reservations about the practice.
I am not attacking your position. I am attacking your dismissal of any argument that does not take your absolutist position.
“so are you suggesting that if a black man with a public defender had been convicted of killing Ann Marie Fahey and having his brother help him dump her body, that he wouldn’t have been sentenced to death because “not even a moron would plan to kill someone in his own house, necessitating the removal of bulky items like rugs and a sofa”?
Because I find that laughable.”
I was arguing that such a case should not qualify for the death penalty, no matter who committed the act. If you’ll recall, Tom Capano was sentenced to death despite the circumstances I cited. The facts back up my position, not yours.
Now explain Donald Flagg, the black man (with a public defender, IIRC) who kidnapped and repeatedly raped Debbie Puglisi after murdering her husband in front of her eyes. He got life, not death.
Good luck.
Well, the fact that he was sentenced to death by a non-unanimous jury is grounds enough. I suspect, and after checking to see who the public defender was I am convinced, that Flagg got very lucky in his draw of a public defender.
But here’s the thing, I wouldn’t execute any of them and both would have been in just as bad of a position as they are now. And neither would have perpetrated another murder.
Geezer, I do respect your opinion and I respect both the tone and the reasoning in your last post. We just fundamentally disagree that it is possible to apply it in a “more sparing, more reasoned manner.” No other western countries use it, why should the USA?
Nobody – nobody – on this thread has made a case that the USA has some special need for the death penalty that makes it different from other western democracies. In fact, killing innocent people in the name of justice diminishes us among all the western democracies. There simply is no upside.
Finally, I do like a point-counter point type of discussion or debate. That is my style, and I am sorry that it bothers you so much, but c’est la vie.
LG: The jury vote on Capano was 11-1. At the time the vote was taken, nothing hinged on that single vote, because the jury vote was merely a recommendation. Had the post-Ring v. Arizona rules been in effect, the judge might well have sent them back to see if they could reach unanimity.
The better point against capital punishment is that it’s capricious. It isn’t just that whites are less likely to receive the penalty; it’s that there’s practically no rhyme or reason to any individual’s penalty.
A1: Sorry for the outburst. You deserved better. Mea culpa.
No problem, geezer. And thanks for the discussion/debate.
A public defender for a poor, black man would likely have put up much less of a fight against the sentence.
Like the public defender for Derrick Powell, who won a very split verdict on the death sentence?
What’s your hypothesis for why a PD would put up a weaker fight on behalf of a poor black man versus other clients? Are you saying PDs are racist?