In Red Clay It Shouldn’t Be City vs Suburbs
I’m not even going to link to the article in today’s News Journal, because it really doesn’t say much and the reporter missed the opportunity to report on the real story – a story that involved parents and citizens all over the district are discussing around their kitchen tables, on blogs and at work. This story has several parts.
First, not all Red Clay Schools are created equal. For an interesting discussion on this check out Kilroy’s posts on Red Clay (there’s a lot of them) and this conversation taking place on The Seventh Type. Yes, we’ve been over this, and if you need to catch up check out my posts here and here.
One of the problems I’m seeing is the split in the District. Suburbanites want their neighborhood suburban schools. City parents don’t want their schools to suffer because of these new schools, and want the District to invest in these schools. Why aren’t we all Red Clay citizens? Why is there this divide that pits us against one another? The answer: Choice and Neighborhood Schools. We no longer function as one district with one goal – great schools. We now operate by fighting amongst ourselves over funding and resources for “our” school.
The split really comes into focus when it comes to improving city schools, because there are really only two ways to achieve this:
1. Put desirable programs into city schools which would attract students from different socio-economic backgrounds. This approach would not only create balance in high poverty schools, but diversifying the population would lead to even more programs and enrichment classes that high poverty schools tend not to have. When advanced, challenging classes are pulled from high poverty schools aren’t we essentially saying that those children don’t need them?
2. Fully fund high poverty schools, which given existing funds would mean all other schools giving up something.
Personally, I prefer the first option. Red Clay obviously disagrees. Everyone knew what would happen to city schools, as well as certain suburban elementary schools, when Brandywine Springs opened, and yet, RCCD never addressed the problem. Today they address the problem within the reality that these high poverty schools are just a given, that they’re here to stay and, other than adding programs specifically catered to high needs schools (which is commendable, but not enough) there is no plan to make these schools attractive to populations outside their feeder zones. And as more schools struggle, Red Clay’s answer to this problem always seems to be… let’s build a new suburban school.
And they are pretty determined to make this happen. Remember this answer from RCCD FAQs on what would happen if the new school wasn’t approved:
We would need to consider a number of options.
• Readjusting feeder patterns in most of our elementary schools to shift the population to our schools in the city. This would be disruptive to all of our schools, and impact important programs in place at our city schools.
• Reconsider the BSS K-8 model.
• Continue to rent trailers, and add additional trailers[emphasis mine]
As a city resident this didn’t bother me, but I wasn’t Red Clay’s intended audience.
I’m also not the intended audience of the newly scheduled referendum meeting being held tomorrow night at Skyline – Which is, as of this post, still not listed on the District’s main page or on their referendum site. Thank goodness for blogs!
Perhaps, Red Clay’s time would be better spent on it’s existing schools. Check out RCCD’s school profiles. Approximately 11 schools under academic watch. For comparison, the Brandywine School District (which has taken option #1 stated above) has 1 school under academic watch – and that one school now houses the BSD’s IB program.
Perhaps… Red Clay should focus on improving their existing schools before building another school. Just sayin’
Tags: Education
I’m with you, P. Even though I don’t live in Red Clay, it is well past time that city schools got some more desirable programming, the kind that might attract other types of students. I do know that there is someone poking around to see about getting an IB program into Warner.
I’s also think that the City government itself ought to be involved in helping to get this to happen. They are going to continue to have a tough time getting people with kids living in the city when its schools are not especially good.
Don’t fall for an IB program though. Put a STEM magnet there for any grade configuration, and an attached daycare for faculty and you’re off and running. But hey, nobody ever listens to me.
I listen to you, Joanne. Red Clay should listen to you, as well. No academic watch for you guys – which tells me you’re taking steps to serve all your schools.
That’s a much better idea, Joanne…will pass it on!
why do city schools do poorer on state test? Why do kids from the city, when in suburbian schools, do poorer on the test? I dont think it has anything to do with where the schools are. Do you say that the schools fair better when the kids from the suburbs are in the city schools?
Here’s some light reading, for you, who cares. 😉
pandora, i read this, and what it says it the same thing i said. That its not money. The city schools recieve the same moneies as teh suburban schools. Also the point about disparate salaries is a mute point here because they are all red clay teachers. it clearly points out about community involvement. So how do you get the parents/grandparents/ministers involved in their childrens education? I dont think that by bussing them to the suburbs will improve anything. The kids, and i have been to the schools, feel like why am i being bussed out here to the ‘rich suburbs’. what are they better than me?
So you never answered the issue, but rather pointed me to a paper that says the same thing I said. Its not money, but community support, local support
The city schools recieve the same moneies as teh suburban schools.
High poverty schools don’t need the same, they need more.
And pretending that article said the same thing you said is ridiculous. Did you read all of it? Poverty was the issue, and I notice how you cherry picked the parts that agreed with you.
And please… I dont think that by bussing them to the suburbs will improve anything. The kids, and i have been to the schools, feel like why am i being bussed out here to the ‘rich suburbs’. what are they better than me? … you have no idea what these kids think. You’re simply projecting, and while it might make you feel superior it isn’t based in reality.
I see in Camden NJ where they spend over 3x’s the state average and where did this get them?
It said that poverty was the problem that caused lack of parental and community involvement. And once they had more money AND more parental/community involvement, it changed.
And its not what I ‘project’, its what I hear from them when I speak with them. So dont you go projecting what you believe I feel ‘to make myself superior”. Thats bull shit!!!
You northerners really confuse and confound us downstaters. So much city-suburban tension, going on for decades and decades, with race (and thus poverty) always the gigantic elephant in the room. Not saying we’re perfect down here – far from it. Our schools generally suck, but at least they’re integrated. It appears that New Castle County folks have yet to figure out how to do that.
Or am I misreading and misunderstanding the entire situation?
anon, I apree with you. But maybe our issue is that the poverty is not spread out over the county/school district as much as it is downstate. that the poverty is focused adn concentrated within the ‘city limits’. thus the issue of suburbia v city
Great post, Pandora – we DO need to work together on this. United we stand, etc…
Better late than never!! Cassandra you took the words out of my mouth – especially about the city government. This underpins all issues of economic development and revitalization. I’ve said this at a number of West Side Grows meetings, and have been met with a lot of blank stares! Argh. How many post-it notes does a girl have to scribble on?!
who cares, have you ever been to a school where every parent was able to be fully involved? I haven’t…not at private schools or well-off publics or anywhere. But all students benefit from the parents that are able to be involved at the school, seeing adults who care enough to spend free time adding to their enrichment and enjoyment of life. This is a kind of invisible resource that generally comes more plentifully with non-poor kids to the table of a school. It’s why separate can never be equal when you’re talking economically. A school with concentrated poverty gets the short end of the stick in this department, while a more affluent school will have parent volunteers coming out of their ears…Why shut poor kids out of the opportunity to have such assets in their life? Why lock them into environments where absent parents and other things are the norm? – How can society ever hope to break some of its vicious cycles on such a foundation?
And that is way too many rhetorical questions for one paragraph, and for that I do apologize. 😛
Forgive my naivete but the city does not have a school system, so what exactly is the city supposed to do to address failing schools in the city?
Honestly, I am not trying to be a wise guy, I am truly ignorant of the city’s power to influence the schools.
I say you have to bloom where you are planted. Poor parents and poor kids want good schools too. It’s the victimization of them in all of this that contributes to self-fulfilling prophecies. Don’t mention their poverty–find the shared values. If it’s drug use or incarceration–that is an absolute that can be addressed. Parents want their kids to learn. Parents want their kids to be respectful, and be respected. The moment you refer to an economic line, you embarrass a building or parent or family, and then backs get up–and the problems continue. Now talk about drugs on a certain street, and you’ll have unity on a shared problem. Refer to “can’t afford’ or “lack the resources” and they have been humiliated. Early on in our family, we had kids in the Philadelphia School District–I’m talking Title 1, and yes poor people. Of course, poor people–it was the city–and worse than Wilmington w/ problems–Philadelphia. A great experience–and I never heard income discussed. But I did see noontime parent outreach programs that ran workshops on making little teaching helps to show and explain to parents math skills–yes, we made little clocks, and spotted puppy dogs to use at home w/ your child–not just some hand-out. Mothers, Grandmas, a dad or two came. Halloween showed costume making from around the house. Truancy was met w/ truant officers and a building official to stay on top of things. Now of course, Philadelphia is known for abysmal schools w/ problems–but the folks who have to use those schools, and want their child to succeed, can do it. People really don’t like being referred to as poor. It’s that first reference that shuts down their involvement. Do you think a phenomenal science school like Masterman in the city came about by reminding folks they were poor? Heck no–it was locking into that notion of “wow, your child has some promise, let’s stay on this, and work…” The problem here in Wilmington, is all we ever hear is poverty and problems. Never is any provision and promise made to do just as I stated above, bloom where you are planted. A charter school vision is the knee jerk panacea parents can only imagine.
I am truly ignorant of the city’s power to influence the schools.
Me too. One cheap thing might be to be at the forefront of helping to organize city taxpayers to be a better balance to the school districts who keep playing games with city kids. Certainly it is worth strategizing about — better schools are key to Wilmington’s long-term health and it seems clear that the school boards that are supposed to serve Wilmington kids don’t place a high priority on that.
38 years ago the ruling made sense. Today the result has been the reverse. The tax base in the city, the school buildings and the population of school age kids makes giving the residents of the city back their schools an attractive proposition. If there were a true visionary on the scene perhaps it could happen.
To address a couple of topics raised in this very interesting thread:
1. The last time the city (as in the Mayor) had any significant power to influence the schools was pre-deseg in 1978. Until ’78, Wilmington had its own school system, and the mayor and governor appointed the school board members (one named four, the other three, and there was this 4-3 political balance required too).
2. Pre-deseg, Wilmington spent more per student than any other district and student performance (to the extent that it could be measured, pre-DSTP) was among the worst in the state, if not the worst.
I was among those who hoped (and believed it was possible) that the achievement gap would be narrowed if city and suburban kids attended school together. I suspect that the gap is somewhat narrower now than it was 33 years ago, but our greatest hopes are far from realized. I do believe that race relations (and city/suburb relations) are better now than they were then. I would attribute that to two factors: black and white kids having more opportunities to see each other as real people in schools (staring in elementary grades) and more African Americans moving into the suburbs.
Unfortunately, passage of the Neighborhood Schools law a decade or so ago, coupled with the maneuverings of several school boards (most notably Red Clay) have essentially resegregated schools.
What you now have in Red Clay, at the elementary level, are segregated city and suburban systems. The key difference between pre-deseg and today, is that, way back when, city parents at least thought they had a school board that would sometimes be responsive to their pleas. Now, in both Red Clay and Christina, city parents find themselves in a minority position with little hope of exerting significant control over the fate of their children.
There are other issues involved that haven’t been addressed in this thread — the state school finance system, for example — but that’s a topic for another day.
Just to be clear, quite a few of the suburban schools are minority white: Dickinson (39.6%), McKean (38%), Stanton Middle (34.2), and more in the “inner ring” of suburbs around the city. Even HB Dupont in deepest Hockessin is 51.8% white. At the secondary level, the feeder patterns and choice have created *some* desegregation that is not insignificant. Of course it is all one-way, so far.
That’s true, Mike, but… only because there isn’t a city middle or high school in Red Clay.
During the last capital referendum, RCCD attempted to make Warner K-8.
A little history on that: No one had any idea this was planned. These plans included major additions to the school, complete with every tree lining the street in front of Warner Kindergarten being cut down so the building could be extended to add more classrooms. The community flipped out and called for a meeting with District.
Please note: When you researched the referendum on the RCCD website every school receiving additions promoted those additions, complete with drawings of how the school would look when completed. Every school but Warner. No bragging or drawings on their referendum page!
Warner’s spec sheet stated “additional classrooms” and when asked what this meant the principal said that offices would be removed and converted back to classrooms. And you wonder why I harp on capacity figures.
Even after the additions were discovered the District insisted that they had no plans for taking Warner K-8 – altho… the classrooms being added on the top floor were far too large for an elementary school (perfect for middle school science labs) and the height of the urinals was being raised. I know, the devil’s in the details.
The community wasn’t against a middle school. They were against further re-segregation. They told District that they didn’t want Warner to go K-8 without a strong educational plan, otherwise this would simply be the District’s next step in re-segregating the schools.
Politicians – from city council to State congressmen – got involved. No one, except RCCD, was aware that this was planned. It ended up being pulled when a member of the bond committee told them that their dishonest actions would effect their bond approval. Talk about a game changer.
After that meeting RCCD sent the congressman a letter stating they had pulled the K-8 plan from Warner. Huh? Up until that letter arrived the District insisted that they had no K-8 plans for Warner.
So… imo, the reason for the diversity in RCCD middle and high schools isn’t due to Red Clay’s belief in diversity. It exists because RCCD hasn’t found a way to get rid of it… yet.
And remember, just a few years ago, RCCD considered Warner empty enough to house a charter middle school.
Just to be clear, I am not against a high quality, educationally focused middle school, but I am against creating another high needs school in the city with no plan other than to remove city students from suburban middle schools.
I do understand the historical memories of the suburbs trying to contain city kids to the city. That is real. But back then the biggest fear was of walling the city off in a separate district, where it wouldn’t have the tax base to support its own schools. The design of the current districts wasn’t so much to assure integrated schools, as it was to make sure city schools had a tax base to draw on. As long as the city schools retain their suburban tax base, it can work.
I’m just not getting the part where building new school capacity in the city is somehow nefarious. If your theory about resegrationation is correct, then they should be tearing down the city elementary schools and supporting the new Graves Road school.
But suppose the district does build new middle school capacity in the city. Then we could test your theory simply by keeping choice open: city parents who were concerned about resegregation could vote with their feet by choicing their kids to the integrated middle schools in the suburbs. Or if they weren’t concerned, they could let their children go to the city school.
The thing that changes the game is charter schools. Nowadays any faltering on the part of a school is seen not as a need to fix the school, but as an opportunity to open yet another iffy charter.
The reason I posted the integration numbers is to rebut the claim that Red Clay suburban parents are afraid to have their children going to school with “scary black kids.” (as one Appo parent put it, and everybody applauded). We already are going to school with black kids, and they’re not that scary.
As long as the city schools retain their suburban tax base, it can work.
Explain, please. Because I really don’t understand what you’re saying.
I’m just not getting the part where building new school capacity in the city is somehow nefarious. If your theory about resegrationation is correct, then they should be tearing down the city elementary schools and supporting the new Graves Road school.
I’m not getting this statement either. And my data on re-segregation isn’t a theory. Also not sure where tearing down city schools leads to supporting the new Graves Road school. And building new school capacity in the city isn’t necessarily a problem. Building new capacity in city schools without a strong, desirable educational program will only enlarge the number of high poverty students. And this will happen due to the Neighborhood School’s Law – meaning that those high needs K-5 students currently at city schools will then become the high needs 6-8 students due to more space. I really don’t understand why you don’t see this.
But suppose the district does build new middle school capacity in the city. Then we could test your theory simply by keeping choice open: city parents who were concerned about resegregation could vote with their feet by choicing their kids to the integrated middle schools in the suburbs. Or if they weren’t concerned, they could let their children go to the city school.
Count me out on that experiment simply because your plan involves only additional space, not desirable programs. The reason RCCD wants a new suburban elementary school is because people in their suburban communities don’t want to go to the schools with space available. And I don’t blame them – I blame Red Clay for allowing these city schools to fail.
Also Neighborhood Schools trump Choice – so feeder patterns and bus routes to a city middle school will be drawn. And… parents that Choice need to provide transportation to and from their Choice school – something that’s extremely difficult for high poverty populations. And while I blame the Neighborhood School’s Law for a lot of this, it didn’t start with that Law. Red Clay was well on their re-segregating way with their implementing of Choice. Again, my data backs this up.
The thing that changes the game is charter schools. Nowadays any faltering on the part of a school is seen not as a need to fix the school, but as an opportunity to open yet another iffy charter.
Agreed.
The reason I posted the integration numbers is to rebut the claim that Red Clay suburban parents are afraid to have their children going to school with “scary black kids.” (as one Appo parent put it, and everybody applauded). We already are going to school with black kids, and they’re not that scary.
I get that’s not where you’re coming from, but not everyone feels this way. I was at those Neighborhood Schools meetings and there was a whole lot of ugly.
Feel free to email me at pandora@delawareliberal.net
fyi NAACP against Charter Schools – http://naacp.3cdn.net/ec6459eda5247ea257_d1m6bxsf6.pdf
from an email I got forwarded earlier –
CHECK THIS OUT! NAACP has just issued this resolution against Charter Schools! We need to get a meeting with our local NAACP and pass this on to Christina, DOE and anyone else. Think people!
Thanks, Nancy!
Speaking as the Appo parent that supposedly said that suburbanites are afraid to go to school with “scary black kids”, Mike O. is mischaracterizing my comment. I am suggesting that that is the coded language that Red Clay was sending to the relatively few receptive parents in the suburbs.
Joanne Christian wrote:
which I replied:
The fact that the referendum is being marketed that way to suburban parents (almost exclusively) is an indicator.
Clear?
LG is dead-on with the comment above. I read the comment by Red Clay the exact same way and it specifically what I was talking about when I said the District needs to tone down its rhetoric.
Of course, LG’s comment is dead-on. The District knows exactly what effect their rhetoric will have on its intended audience. Red Clay is holding a figurative gun to suburbanites heads – Vote FOR the referendum… or else we’ll ship your kids back to those horrible city schools. They weren’t exactly subtle.
I hate being told what I am supposed to think. Apparently I am the only member of the “intended audience” in this discussion, so I hope my view carries some weight. If anybody out there lives in the Red Clay suburbs and has elementary age children, please join in. These guys are talking about you.
The message I got from “redraw feeder patterns” is “drive/bus a long way.” Many suburban parents were bused themselves and now work in racially mixed environments, and have no problem with the race issues. For crying out loud, I lived in Harlem for almost three years (before parenthood, though).
I think it is just possible the 1980s busing actually succeeded in changing the attitudes of a generation (there will always be some bigots though).
It’s the distance. We’re already going to school with city kids. If we wanted our kids to avoid black people we’d choice them to Appo 🙂
Busing long distances works fine if you have someone to meet the bus at home in the mid-afternoon. If not you rely on local after-care. Many suburban parents have a narrow enough window as it is between getting off work and rushing to pick up kids before aftercare closes. If you need to work an hour late it is a major crisis. But I don’t think I am talking here with anyone who has experience with that problem.
I think it is a legitimate basis for the referendum: “Would you rather build a new school, or have your kids bused into the city? ” It’s not so much a threat, as a clear way to state the proposition.
I get that there is a third option – put in programs in city elementary schools that will cause suburban parents to choice in – which sounds great, but does not seem like a fully formed thought just yet. I need to see it in a form that I can vote up or down on. Or if not, let me know where is the committee to draft the proposal and I’ll sign up. Really.
By the way, my youngest is in second grade so we probably wouldn’t be personally affected by the new school.
And honestly I still don’t know how I will vote on it. I am attracted to the idea of voting No to force a new conversation on city schools, but I don’t see the path. City parents have to lead, and not just in the month before a referendum. To be fair, I’ve only been involved at the district level for a year, so maybe I missed some major proposal by city parents. Maybe I missed it; I would have been interested and probably supportive.
Actually, I hope a few Red Clay parents of elementary age children in the city weigh in, because they are the ones that have the most to lose here. Perhaps even a few that have choiced their kids out of failing Red Clay schools in the city to the suburbs. They might have some pointers on how to juggle child dropoff/pickup strategies when their kids ride the bus to the ‘burbs. I’m sure that would be a fun discussion.
I think it is a legitimate basis for the referendum: “Would you rather build a new school, or have your kids bused into the city? ” It’s not so much a threat, as a clear way to state the proposition.
is it? even given that the building of the school in the burbs may not even be warranted given the capacity numbers Pandora has laid out or the other issues laid out by Kilroy? And how do you sell that to city parents? (because Red Clay apparently doesn’t even want the city parents to know that there is a vote).
Also, let me be clear, I am not talking about you. You and I are friends in real life and I know your background and I know that your concerns are not racially motivated. My beef is with Red Clay that has shown great interest in resegregating their district (not that Christina has been much better).
The argument all through deseg was never expressed as “I don’t want my kid to go to school with black kids” because I suspect that lots of the opponents would have been fine if all of the city kids just came to suburban schools for 12 years. But then every city kid would have to hoof it to Hockessin or Stanton every school day for 12 years. The compromise was that the suburban kids had to come into the city for a mere 3 years, city kids in the suburbs for 9. But virtually every complaint was that the kids were on the bus too long or were too far away.
The tell in that fib is that many of the most vociferous opponents just up and left the deseg districts and fled to Appo and Cecil County where their kids rode on the bus for 30+ minutes along rural bus routes to schools that were far from home. So forgive me if I don’t think Red Clay is being genuine when they pose the question in their either/or way to suburbia, while keeping city parents in the dark.
The argument all through deseg was never expressed as “I don’t want my kid to go to school with black kids”
That might have been the polite, publicly expressed argument, but it wasn’t what I heard as a young child who was bused from the ‘burbs to Wilmington in 1978-79.
Many of my friends’ parents freely used the word “nigger” when describing the type of people they didn’t want their kids going to school with and/or being taught by.
BTW, the long bus ride sucked, but I only had to suffer for one year. The city kids suffered for 9 years, and they rarely complained.
My experience was the opposite. I heard the N word at school one day, and I had to go home and ask my father what it meant. I had never heard it before. And this was during the days of the Wilmington School District, probably ’67-’68, right before MLK was assassinated. We just didn’t say it at home or in my neighborhood.
Later when the deseg case was being decided, I still didn’t hear the N word; all the talk was about the long ride out of our familiar neighborhoods. We would talk about “black” kids, but not in a hateful way, just curious. The truth is, none of us actually knew one. But I don’t recall ever even dreaming of using the N word. It wasn’t part of our vocabulary. Anybody remember “Students tell Schwartz to stick it in his shorts?”
The only time I saw parents angry about busing was on TV. My parents grew up themselves in segregated Wilmington, and I think they understood very well how unfair segregation had been.
@ Mike O–That word was not used in my house. My mother grew up in segregated Wilmo & attended lily-white Catholic schools, but her father worked at the integrated Post Office & had many black friends. My father (much older than my mom) grew up in then-rural northern NCC and had quite a different experience, but he didn’t use that word. He grew up poor, started working at age 8 & witnessed rich white women abuse their black housemaids. There really wasn’t much difference (other than skin color) between my paternal grandmother and the black maids my father worked with. Grandmom work ed her ass off. These maids did the same thing, and earned even less than my Grandmom’s meager pay. I guess that hit home w/ Dad & tempered the ingrained racism most whites in his area held at the time.
I don’t remember “Students tell Schwartz to stick it in his shorts,” but I was only 8 yrs. old when busing started. My earliest memories of anything remotely political and/or controversial are of the Mickey Mouse “FUCK IRAN” window stickers.
There were plenty of PWT and middle class white people slinging the word “nigger” in 19736/19707 in the late 1970s. I’ve never lived in Claymont, but racism was even more rampant from what I’ve heard from people who DID live there at the time.
WOW -sad to hear all that racism – my mom would beat my butt and my dad too if I EVER showed a moments disrespect to anyone of color
my mom served high tea in the fomal living room on Sundays to the “ladies” and it was mixed color folks in the early 70’s.
actually my Godfather was Cape Verdean, and a person of color
racism was never an issue where I lived (long standing Quaker area) and those lessons have stayed with me. I dont understand it when I hear it or see it and even reading the N-word makes my stomach ball up.
suppose I was lucky to be in a progressive household.
First and foremost, I don’t think the majority of suburbanites are racists. There are some, and there are racists in the city as well.
Here is what we are dealing with:
RCCD city elementary schools have been re-segregated along racial and socio-economic lines.
This was accomplished through Choice and the opening of Brandywine Springs. The Neighborhood School’s Law and the opening of North Star completed what Choice started.
Poverty is the real issue here.
I completely understand where Mike O. is coming from. His school is overcrowded and a new school would solve that problem. He’s arrived late to the game; he missed the board meetings and fights (fights in which city residents defeated a referendum) that led to his reality, which is… children go to the schools closest to their homes.
What frustrates me is his, and others, lack of understanding of what’s happened to city schools. Either they are so insulated that they only look at their school, and, therefore, honestly don’t know the disparities that exist at city schools (the problem isn’t distance or bus rides), or they are turning a blind eye because acknowledging these disparities could result in the redrawing of feeder patterns which could hurt their schools and truly (no snark) disrupt their lives. Basically, if they acknowledge these disparities and want to correct them they will lose something. (I think Mike just doesn’t know. He doesn’t strike me as a person who would look away)
So I do understand their plight. And District is playing on this – vote for the referendum or we’ll redraw feeders and send you back to the city.
I encourage everyone to attend the meeting at Highlands. There’s a discussion to be had.
“Poverty is the real issue here.” Yes but not totally. While there are those that believe it is mostly race, it is not. But there is something else at work here – culture. The only way I can explain it with less than a treatise is that the culture in many urban and inner city schools is one where good grades are frowned upon. Not by the school administration and teachers of course, but by the students themselves. Peer pressure often ostracizes those who reach for something different.
A friend of mine (an African American from Prince George County in Maryland) explained it to me this way. If someone from the community is successful – getting good grades, attempting to achieve, it creates a stark contrast between what their peer group is doing (or not doing). Consequently, their peers instead of pulling for an individuals success, actually actively pull against their success. As some attempt to rise out of the depths, there are those who try just as hard to pull them back down. Misery loves company I suppose.
Now partially this may be born of poverty, but not wholly. Government aid, while putting food on the table, cannot change that culture by itself. I honestly do not know what will change the culture, but I do know that if my children were not already grown, I would not send them to a school where the culture is such that success is frowned upon in order to maintain ths status quo.
Dave, your friend doesnt know what he is talking about. That second paragraph shows a fundamental misunderstanding that can only come from pure ignorance. I’ll give you the benfit of the doubt and not assume you’re one of these Newt Gingrich type compassionate racists and just pray that you have never met anyone from “urban areas”.
but, as a white boy who grew up in in a very diverse neighborhood, (my street was like a rainbow, i’m very proud of that) i can tell you that this doesn’t exist…. at least not in the “unique to poor urban cultures” as you have characterized it. Many times the reason kids in high school who are poor dont do well, is because they must also have a job to help their family.
read that last sentence again and think about the heartlessness of your entire post.
please become informed. you dont know what you’re talking about in this issue, the people who are informing you are wither very ignorant, or are hateful. dont fall victim.
And by the way….. 10 years ago when i as in high school the ONLY and i mean ONLY people who gave fiction to the nerds and geeks were the peckerwood Abercrombites (as we called them) from fairfax…. so kindly take your “city kids are a bad influence on my lilly sub-urban angels” and stuff it.
“He’s arrived late to the game; he missed the board meetings and fights (fights in which city residents defeated a referendum)”
Got any dates of these meetings so I can look it up? It sounds like they were quite memorable. If those proposals make sense, maybe it is time to dust them off and let more people know about them.
Honestly though, it doesn’t seem like a board meeting is a conducive place to have a “fight,” or even to develop and refine an idea. If you are trying to have those kinds of discussions in a board meeting it is too late.
For crying out loud, I attended many meetings with school principals, teachers, district administrators, Superintendents, Board members, politicians, community members – including suburban community members.
Please stop implying that I haven’t done enough, when the truth is you need to get up to speed. And I don’t have the exact dates of board meetings – start in 2000 and read on, especially the dates preceding, during and after the referendum that included North Star. Or ask Kilroy. He’ll tell you what was going on.
Seriously, I’m finding your telling me what I should do and should have done infuriating, mainly because you have no idea what I did or am doing. I gave you my email so you could ask me questions off a public forum. You haven’t used it.
Po’ white Merkins vs urban black thugs?
This is a great dissection of Charles Murray’s newest screed:
Charles Murray:
“Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010,”
Suddenly, conservatives are telling us that it’s not really about money; it’s about morals. Never mind wage stagnation and all that, the real problem is the collapse of working-class family values, which is somehow the fault of liberals.
vs
William Julius Wilson:
Back in 1996,… Mr. Wilson … argued that much of the social disruption among African-Americans popularly attributed to collapsing values was actually caused by a lack of blue-collar jobs in urban areas. If he was right, you would expect something similar to happen if another social group — say, working-class whites — experienced a comparable loss of economic opportunity. And so it has.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark Thoma on Paul Krugman: Money and Morals
The claim from conservatives that collapsing middle class family values is responsible for rising inequality diverts attention from the true cause of stagnating middle class incomes:
Money and Morals, by Paul Krugman, Commentary, NY Times: Lately inequality has re-entered the national conversation. Occupy Wall Street gave the issue visibility, while the Congressional Budget Office supplied hard data on the widening income gap. And the myth of a classless society has been exposed: Among rich countries, America stands out as the place where economic and social status is most likely to be inherited.
So you knew what was going to happen next. Suddenly, conservatives are telling us that it’s not really about money; it’s about morals. Never mind wage stagnation and all that, the real problem is the collapse of working-class family values, which is somehow the fault of liberals.
But is it really all about morals? No, it’s mainly about money.
To be fair, the new book at the heart of the conservative pushback, Charles Murray’s “Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010,” does highlight some striking trends. Among white Americans with a high school education or less, marriage rates and male labor force participation are down, while births out of wedlock are up. Clearly,… something is … happening to the traditional working-class family. The question is what. And it is, frankly, amazing how quickly and blithely conservatives dismiss the seemingly obvious answer: A drastic reduction in the work opportunities available to less-educated men. …
For lower-education working men,… entry-level wages … have fallen 23 percent since 1973. Meanwhile, employment benefits have collapsed. … So we have become a society in which less-educated men have great difficulty finding jobs with decent wages and good benefits. Yet somehow we’re supposed to be surprised that such men have become less likely to participate in the work force or get married, and conclude that there must have been some mysterious moral collapse caused by snooty liberals. And Mr. Murray also tells us that working-class marriages, when they do happen, have become less happy; strange to say, money problems will do that.
One more thought: The real winner in this controversy is the distinguished sociologist William Julius Wilson.
Back in 1996,… Mr. Wilson … argued that much of the social disruption among African-Americans popularly attributed to collapsing values was actually caused by a lack of blue-collar jobs in urban areas. If he was right, you would expect something similar to happen if another social group — say, working-class whites — experienced a comparable loss of economic opportunity. And so it has.
So we should reject the attempt to divert the national conversation away from soaring inequality toward the alleged moral failings of those Americans being left behind. …
http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2012/02/paul-krugman-money-and-morals.html
Great 2004 article here from the Inquirer, with a pretty good scope of desegregation in Delaware:
http://articles.philly.com/2004-05-19/news/25381569_1_bus-rides-city-students-suburban-schools
I’m not necessarily taking it all at face value right now, but it does have names and dates of some of the happenings in the 2000s, so later I can track down some of those meetings and proposals.
Yo SB, Dave is not misspeaking w/ his discussion of a peer/culture group working against the success of a group member. Having worked endlessly w/ all types of races and culture groups thru adolescence and young adulthood .You better believe that “oreo” and “apple” cuts to the quick of any talented youth in the pipeline out of their blighted circumstances if they are not resilient enough, or have a major adult in their life cheering them on. It is a huge reason why mirrored successful mentors are needed as an example and reminder of a better life ahead thru hard work and education. Problem is finding the mentors. When success happens, who can blame them for not returning to the neighborhood or school they escaped. One, they worked hard not to return. Or they go back during the journey and catch grief for some perceived new elitism. My personal examples include a brilliant Crow young man, attending Dartmouth. His school breaks back on the reservation were so lonely. He hung out w/ me and his mom. His peers did what his peers did, drink, drive recklessly and play basketball. I was so embarrassed for him when he was called apple in my presence at some festive Thanksgiving thing when the normal town group were drinking again. Even a great white kid I had, parents of high school education who owned a mom and pop business. The kid got into Georgetown, the mother in particular stated he didn’t need that, he was just trying to be uppity. The sad part, the parents could afford Georgetown. He still went, no help from them, and the whole student loan thing was a nightmare, because of being a dependent BUT of parents who won’t give you a dime. I could go on with examples in the black race, the white race etc. So don’t be so dismissing of the AA male from PG county and his observation or opinion. It’s very real. And so necessary for up and coming kids to see and feel that support of someone who looks like them, and did the opportunity now being presented as a very real choice. So yea, misery loves company. But on the flip side. There is company in numbers. We need more successful exits to return and shed light on the way out.
got it. black people hate success, urban people hate success, the non-suburban culture is the blight of the US. so glad we have good people like you helping all those undeserving serfs.
for every story you have about a little black kid who wants to be in a gang, i have grown up with examples of people who didn’t need a white angel guiding them out of the ghetto.
so ass holeness aside. i know you probably dont mean to be… but you are espousing racist sentiments. by the way, most of the people i knew from high school who ended up pumpin’ gas, or whatever jobs are reserved for us city folk, lived in north Wilmington. in high school, all of the drugs came from the ‘burbs.
well SoB, since you are so quick to jump right to some great white way myth of saving races and ghetto rescues let me set you straight. no white angel here was doing any guiding. purely working at an everyday job thru the government. and in the course of that work and friendships made this is what I came in contact with. I didn’t mentor, guide, direct, counsel or opine. This was experience and observation. So if I have to give you logic of a different socio-economic class than so be it.
Let’s say you have a rich white family where mom is a third generation physician, and pop is partner in a 5 header law firm, with franchises across 4 states. Silver spoon son comes along, and insists he wants to write songs w/ his guitar, and play coffeehouses all across the Catskills, Son makes no movement post high school, but he really is a pretty good guitar player. Mom and Dad offer no encouragement along those lines, and are really rather vocal about the itinerant lifestyle, and their opinion of a wasted life and career path. Oh, and the siblings join in too. From Haverford and Duke and the Kentucky Derby. Family friends chide about what are you gonna do when you grow up? Now, SB how long do ya think silver spoon son is gonna keep doing what he loves and is pretty good at? How much longer is he gonna stay if he knows just one person that navigated the process before him, takes the son under his wing, and steers the kid to successfully play his guitar in the Catskills, make the pointers, cheer him on and share in his success at this.
What I’m sayin is good or bad our cultures do have a hand in what we see for ourselves. You want to break that mold? It’s a whole lot easier if you surround yourself with others who want to see you break that mold also. And yes, it is a blight, when the instances in this thread were speaking to the city, and delapidated conditions that remain. So lose your white angel rescue attack, and get real that everyone can use a good example, or real world model.
got it. black people hate success, urban people hate success, the non-suburban culture is the blight of the US.
Wow.
I generally enjoy reading your insightful posts, sb, but you’ve blown Dave & Venus’ words way out of proportion. Has it occurred to you that these people (Dave and Venus) actually experienced these things?
Perpetually downtrodden people of any race are often jealous when one of their own accomplishes something over and above the meager expectations of the ghetto. This is as true in Appalachia as it is in Wilmington.
I invite you to educate yourself & have a few laughs in the process:
Chris Rock explains the Masters Degree
The comedic rantings of the late Patrice Oneal. You’ll have to pay for the Patrice stuff, but it’s worth every penny. He had an interesting worldview. As a bonus, all proceeds from your purchase go to his widow and step-daughter.
I also invite you to come to my workplace in downtown Wilmo & witness the ghetto bullshit that happens there EVERY SINGLE DAY. “Ghetto bullshit” is not limited to black people. We have plenty of drunken, drug addled, crazy white folks too. The 1st of the month is especially exciting (ambulances roll due to ODs) and late in the month is interesting too–domestic disputes due to the lack of EBT and/or cash funds.
BTW, please tell me where all the “gas-pumping” jobs are in Delaware . I actually PUMPED GAS at a full service gas station 25 years ago. There aren’t many left these days.
So lose your white angel rescue attack, and get real that everyone can use a good example, or real world model.
Venus said it so much better than I did. Patrice’s stuff is still worth the $20. That guy was insightful, perverted & hilarious. The world is a just a little bit smaller in his absence.