So Who DIDN’T Think This Was Coming?
On Sunday, the NJ wrote a long piece detailing the some of the multiple fights going on between the Governor’s Office and the Office of the Treasurer. The article is an interesting inventory of some of the BS swirling around the Treasurer’s office, but when I finished reading it, I wondered who — exactly — was surprised that Chip Flowers and the Governor were butting heads over turf?
The primary between Chip Flowers and Velda Jones Potter was acrimonious. In all of the back and forth about the right candidate here at DL, there were a number of us who had one major point that got handwaved away:
The “Flower’s Framework” consisted of a decent number of things he wanted the Treasurer’s office to do that already were the responsibility of other people in the Governor’s office. How was he going to get this responsibility from the Governor?
So I guess we have our answer — he’s not taking over much — and the bull in a China shop negotiating posture isn’t exactly the kind of pressure that the Governor and his people are responding to. While there is a good deal of finger-pointing going on in this article, the thing that is missing — and has ALWAYS been missing from Flower’s ambitious plans — is some rationale for why he should be doing work that other people are already doing. But in the meantime, he’s been complaining about office space, holding a bond issuance hostage so he could promote somebody, hiring people KWS-style, and apparently treating procurements KWS-style too.
I can’t quite fathom how the Governor could not meet with Flowers at least once. Jack Markell always struck me as having abit more grace than that. But management of the Treasurer’s office by bluster isn’t exactly confidence inspiring. But that seems to be the thing, right? Just bluster your way through and hope that no one notices that you aren’t saying anything. And now people are noticing (and if my email is any indicator, is not going to be of help to him), which is unfortunate. Certainly this office is a traditional launching off point for Delawareans with some statewide political ambitions. Unfortunately for Flowers, he’s not using it to learn much about working and playing with others. Something of a critical skill — whether it is real or optics — for politicians.
As an aside, as I was reading this article, I couldn’t remember once like it on KWS — a good survey of the missteps, incompetence and just plain MIA status of that office. Did I miss it?
Tags: Chip Flowers
The News Journal showed a big picture of our Democratic statewide black guy with a big screen TV. Mission accomplished.
The Democratic statewide black guy was delighted to pose for that camera with all of his toys, too.
I can’t quite fathom how the Governor could not meet with Flowers at least once. Jack Markell always struck me as having abit more grace than that.
Indeed. I used to share your observation. Then, I learned a lesson.
The article makes me like the guy.
Mind you, I am not familiar with any backstory, and I was baffled by the campaign-era Velda posts.
Karen Weldin Stewart experienced the same crap from Jack’s OMB – stymied ability to hire necessary personnel – when she isn’t even using General Funds budget. Yeah, I know the haters will see and hear what they want from that but it clearly establishes a pattern of how outsiders are treated.
I would always prefer to vote for the outsider in this climate of HIGH DEM power-mongering to try to keep the party monopoly damage to a minimum if possible. At least a few of us aren’t blinded by the light from on high.
The Framework has nothing to do with the issues raised in the article. He isn’t expanding his office here but clashing with four Markell appointees, whose boss evidently refuses to meet with him, over bureaucratic matters. The one substantive issue here, improving the rate of return the state receives on its investments, is under the purview of his office.
I guess he’s expected to fill the mold of what is perceived to be the state treasurer’s job, not make any waves and wait for his reward of a higher office. It’s somewhat refreshing to see someone who doesn’t fit into the mold and is willing to think outside the box for a change.
Is this good or bad? Who knows but should be interesting to watch.
Holding up a bond bill in order to get a new position. Sounds more like corruption and abuse of office rather than “thinking outside the box.”
That article was ridiculous. This post was worse. The best thing for Markell is to let this die. Everyone I talked to said Flowers looked like the bigger person. He has my vote. Please stop spinning for Governor Markell. His behavior is awful.
Clearly, Markell (I mean Selander) told you to write this blog. Do you really expect us to believe you pulled out a copy of the framework? That’s too funny. Listen, when you talk to the administration you should tell them to meet with Chip and pray that people dont think they are racist. A black educated man holding a gun. I will never vote for Jack Markell. Too busy to meet with Flowers, but he had time to tell his team to meet with the NJ.
“Clearly, Markell (I mean Selander) told you to write this blog.”
Clearly you have the brains of a bag of hammers. As Cass wrote, everyone saw this coming. Many of us pointed it out ahead of time. Don’t pretend it’s some big act of betrayal for Markell not to want to have anything to do with an official who’s on the make for himself.
Chip Flowers is responsible for playing it as he has. Don’t whine because it didn’t work; again, many of us told him that ahead of time.
“Everyone I talked to said Flowers looked like the bigger person.”
Well, the voices is anon’s head agree, so it’s all settled.
@ PleaseStopCassandra–
You’re either stupid or simply unable to work a computer. I found “the framework” with 2 clicks of my mouse.
http://chipflowers.com/wp-content/uploads/TheFlowersFramework.pdf
This isn’t about the Framework or whether Chip wanted or wants to expand the office. http://treasury.delaware.gov/wp-content/uploads/StateTreasurerFlowersFramework.pdf What part of the Framework was in the article? There is nothing in there about Chip taking some of Markell’s turf.
Markell has four high-ranking appointees throwing grenades at Chip in the paper yet refuses to meet with him. Why not try meeting before having a food fight in the paper? Isn’t the Governor the leader of the party?
Geezer, you may not like Flowers but the Governor and his team were wrong. There is no excuse not meeting with an elected official and then blasting them in the paper. Even the NJ acknowledged he had been doing a great job and making money for the state. We elected Jack to be Governor not co treasurer. I’m hard on Flowers when he is wrong, but even you have to agree the article did not make Markell look good.
I have been disappointed with what I have seen from our governor as a continually increased focus on power over process and commitment to good government. Refusing to meet with Flowers because he was not his hand-picked candidate goes along with this. Expressing his support for individuals across the spectrum of gender identities and expressions is great, but where has his leadership been in finishing the non-discrimination bill he signed into law that included sexual orientation but had gender identity and expression taken out? I was extremely disappointed to hear that Markell is supporting Tony DeLuca. Markell was elected in a primary because of people’s desire to see new guard politics triumph in Delaware. The fact that he is now supporting one of the most corrupt politicians in Delaware who embraces good ol’ boy politics leaves me feeling disillusioned with Markell.
Clearly this was leaked by Markell’s team. Look at how much internal information only they would have is in there and practically all his top people are quoted in it…I agree this was poorly handled by the Governor’s team.
Hey, PSC… why do you hate Jews? you must right? because if scrutiny of Sec Flowers is racist, than anything bad said about Markell is Anti-Semitic . you Nazi!
I don’t know what article the Chippettes here read, but it wasn’t the one I perused. Flowers came across to me like an arrogant asshole interested in doing other peoples’ jobs for them and expanding his power base. Why does he need a Bloomberg terminal in his office when he’s not directly managing the portfolio? Why did he hire someone to produce economic reports based on already public information that no one consults? Why was it so important to change the stationery to read Delaware State Treasury?
Let’s face it, the Treasurer really doesn’t do a whole lot. The office could be folded into the Finance Department and no one would lose any sleep. But the Democrats can’t admit that since their Senator and Governor both came from that office.
Flowers maintains that this is a political dispute and that the Governor is dissing him. Which is convenient for Flowers b/c it takes the focus away from what I consider the real issue.
I think Flowers is doing something very dangerous, and that’s playing Lotto with state money b/c he believes that the returns on investment are not large enough.
As a state pensioner, I want responsible stewardship. That’s what I think the Cash Management Review Board provides, and I sure as bleep don’t want the State Treasurer messing with that. Hey, Markell didn’t mess with it when he was Treasurer, and I respect his financial acumen far more than Flowers’.
Everyone who reads this blog knows that I don’t agree with Gov. Markell on everything, or close to everything, but he’s right here.
Chip, stop gambling with my retirement $$’s.
“There is no excuse not meeting with an elected official and then blasting them in the paper.”
There’s no excuse for astroturfing the blog for Chip, either.
What do you mean, “no excuse”? Why does he need an excuse? They consider Flowers a self-promoting clown. Look at how Carper and Markell behaved in that office — they never did a single thing to make the governor look bad, even Carper, who served under a Republican.
Chip Flowers might prefer to play the renegade to the good soldier, but guess what happens when you do that? This article, for starters.
“even you have to agree the article did not make Markell look good.”
No, I don’t have to agree. It’s a tempest in a teacup. Nobody outside of government and Chip’s cheering section gives a rat’s ass about anything in that article. If Chip Flowers thinks he can fashion a political career out of pissing off a popular governor, good luck to him.
“Geezer, you may not like Flowers…”
And you may not understand that I couldn’t care less one way or the other about Chip Flowers. I see what I see, and I’m not going to sugarcoat it because Chip is such a delicate flower.
Look, the guy wants to play hardball, but he doesn’t want to suffer the consequences. He can’t have it both ways, unless he’s a helluva lot better at politics than he’s ever shown to this point in his career.
If I had Chip’s baggage, I’d be a helluva lot more careful about making enemies than he is.
El, the state treasurer does not manage the pension office. Its the Governor s office. Too funny. Your money is with Fisker. Lol.
This is the problem with the Democratic governor leaking the kitchen sink to the WNJ about the Democratic treasurer. It turns into a food fight and hurts the party. If Markell has such passionate views about this why not meet with the guy once before going to the News Journal? This is about politics not policy.
Didn’t Treasurer Markell spend nearly two years bashing the “Minner-Carney administration” (over, get this, the need for bold change as opposed to the status quo governor and incrementalist fictional co-governor)? Funny how time changes things and memories fade.
Geezer, that was a low blow. Chips baggage, stop being Markells boy. Flowers will be fine. Didnt you predict he would lose? You have as much political guidanvce as Visalli and Selander. I dont know Chip personally, but I know racism when I see it. I will work hard to make sure he becomes Governor and if Markell takes thus racist atyitude to run for President, good luck. I cant wait till the national media picks up on this story.
“Geezer, that was a low blow. Chips baggage, stop being Markells boy.”
Fuck yourself sideways, you cheap piece of pimp shit. Yeah, Chip’s baggage. You’ve heard of it, I see. As I said, if I had it, I’d be more careful about making enemies.
Chip, stop gambling with my retirement $$’s.
@El Som – what funds were moved from where to where, and what is the problem with their new location?
The article reports the assertion from the Governor’s office that Flowers is somehow bringing more risk to the State’s portfolio, but doesn’t provide any details. That does sort of sound like a smear and fear tactic, doesn’t it?
I get the concept of conservative vs. aggressive investing, but has the Governor’s office backed up its claims of risk?
After all, Flowers asserts the portfolio is now earning $10 million instead of the projected $7 million.
Is somebody’s buddy out $3 million in fees?
I hate to respond to trolls.
However, Chip Flowers says that he wants to, in effect, substitute his judgment for that of the Cash Management Review Board. I don’t. We’ve seen state pension plans throughout the country, most notably California’s, suffer massive losses due to aggressive bets placed by overzealous investors.
That’s what Chip Flowers has said he wants to do. I don’t want him screwing around with my pension.
Puck, he hasn’t done it b/c he hasn’t been allowed to do it, but he’s trying to do it. I think that no good can come from that.
And I’ve got no axe to grind with Flowers. I like to think that some of the stuff I exposed about Bonini helped Chip to win a close election. Doesn’t mean I’ve left my brain at the door.
“I will work hard to make sure he becomes Governor”
In which case I’m about the last person you want as an enemy. But now you’ve got me.
You don’t know jack shit about anything, apparently. If I want to make Chip Flowers look like a bag of shit, it won’t be hard. He’ll have you to thank.
Fucking moron. Get the fuck out of the game, you’re too much of a quivering pussy to play. As I said, Chip is too delicate to play the rough game he always starts off by being an asshole. His acolytes are apparently the same.
Chip Flowers is a good person, and a friend who will help out another for no reason other than it’s the right thing to do. He ran on the platform of making the office more active, and more relevant.
But, he’s not doing himself any favors by alienating the governor’s office. The governor is the head of the party, like or not. This is going to get worse, as Chip starts going for higher offices.
As for the governor, it is absolutely unacceptable that our governor will not meet with our treasurer.
That’s my $.02, anyway.
“It turns into a food fight and hurts the party.”
Oh, noes! Don’t hurt the party!
Who do you think you’re fooling with that happy horseshit?
Geezer, try to refrain from poor language. Its ok, Chip got the bezt if Markell. Youre clearly too big for me to fuck you sideways. Im pretty endowed down there. Try Selander, he probably has a small one. On a more professional note, El, the pension office is under Jack.
“This is going to get worse, as Chip starts going for higher offices.”
No, it’s going to end when Chip starts going for higher offices. He’s a legend in his own mind, and he won’t be winning any higher offices.
Right, troll-boy. You don’t know him personally. My ass. What are you, another woman-beater sticking up for his hero?
This is going to be fun.
Earlier, I was looking for any detailed data re: the performance of the funds. I couldn’t find that, but I couldn’t spend much time on it, either. But what I did find was a 2010 version of the State of Delaware
Cash Management Policy Board Objectives and Guidelines for investment of state money (pdf). It is pretty clear that the Board’s own policy is pretty conservative re: investments (although WTF is up with investing in MBS?)– so now I can’t tell if he is having a tantrum over the policy or oversight of the investment managers doing the work.
I saw the claim of better performance in the article, but can’t find anything to actually back that up. (Which isn’t to say it doesn’t exist, I haven’t had the time for an exhaustive look.)
Geezer, we agree on one point. The fun is just beginning. The Markell/Flowers war has begun (sorry, I’m a Star Wars fan).
“Youre clearly too big for me to fuck you sideways.”
You can’t even read. I told you to fuck yourself.
Dude, you are seriously delusional. Chip Flowers is going to end up a stain on the sidewalk.
Lol! Wouldn’t it be funny if this is the first blog on a Democratic primary for Governor. If the Markell lovers are right, what does Flowers have to lose if Markell is going to screw with him. These Markell people probably just cost there boss another primary. I love it!
Chip declared his plans regarding the portfolio four months ago. Read pages nine and ten of his second annual report which is on his website. The Markell administration was silent until June, after he began implementing his plan.
No one can blame Markell for wanting his own person in that spot. You would, I would, Cassandra would, PleaseStopCassandra would… Making that an major issue is not too sane.
The part about changing the investments of state funds, well, when the market is going up, that is a great idea. Judging from the reports secretly coming out of Europe right now, probably the US TREASURY is the only safe bet over the next 15 months. And they aren’t paying anything..
The argument Chip makes, is that at one time in our past, in order to protect the money, stringent rules were once enacted to keep it split, in safe accounts that do not have growth potential. Chip would want to change that… What usually happens when any public entity puts their money into private hands? Those accepting those moneys charge the same commissions when prices go up, or down….
And just as an aside, if any of you have options to move IRA or Keogh funds from high growth to safe, start doing it now would be my advice. “It don’t look good on a global scale”.. Just sayin’… and just sayin’ it here……
I can’t wait for Flowers to carry out his threat to run for Governor in 2016. I will watch gleefully as Matt Denn turns him into a puddle of piss, to be forgotten faster than Janet Rzewnicki.
Chip Flowers is seeking to have more control over the state’s investments, yet is not a money manager himself. He wants blind trust in him, an untested officeholder with poor political judgment. This spat raises questions for me about his judgment in other areas. Sorry if I seem skeptical.
Delaware’s investment policy is the most stringent in the nation. There is no groundswell in 49 states to adopt the Delaware way of minimal returns.
The money already is in private hands with the $2.1 million in contracts Treasurer Markell signed.
Chip hired a firm with a great reputation and tied the contract to performance. Great. Plenty of states do this.
PleaseStop, that would be funny. I love Chip but we know he marches to his own beat. The filing deadline is at high noon on July 10. Who knows what an angry Chip with nothing to lose may do…
The fact that anyone who points out that Chip Flowers is a paranoid, egomaniacal self-promoter is a “Markell lover” is all the evidence needed to show that these two fanboys are as crazy as he is.
My suspicion is that one of them is Flowers himself.
Nobody cares, fellas. Chip Flowers is the Christine O’Donnell of the Delaware Democratic Party — it’s all about the drama, and it’s never Chip’s fault.
“Who knows what an angry Chip with nothing to lose may do…”
I can think of a female attorney at Columbia who has a pretty good idea…
Wow, Geezer, you must really hate him. By trying to bring up false claims against him. That strategy worked well for Velda. Whether you like him or not, this friction may create a primary and in a year with a competitive mayors race in the city, Markell is stupid for starting this debate. It would be a very close race. Sorry, Geezer, Jacks people went after the one person who has an independent base. Cassandra was free to write this post, but they should have let this die. You’re comments inflaming everyone aren’t helping. As a Democrat, this bickering has weakened the party.
Ezra, gender identity and expression are NOT sexual orientation. Jack did deliver on what he promised.
Chip has no magical base, Velda just happened to have even less of one and was more clueless than Chip. This article isn’t going to cause anything but this post, and a bunch of politicos gossiping throughout Delaware. Jack knows what he is doing, and Chip has always been out for himself and he always will be. End of story.
If he has no magical base, how did he beat an incumbent and state senator. I think a primary is coming. Don’t worry, Mike Castle was pretty confident and he lost. I think you Markell supporters are in denial about the damage done by the NJ article. The Gov did not look good. Not saying Flowers would win, but to keep reminding voters that this smart guy has a bunch of ideas that are too big for his office is not smart. Just my two cents.
I’m with el som on this one, I get nervous when one rational person is in charge of handling the public’s money. This one is delusional. He insists that its his role is to bring jobs to the state. Here he picks a fight with a governor with a 70 plus percent approval rating theatening tohold up a bond issue for a charter school if he can’t get one of his cronies reclassified. Maybe he could pay for it with some of those state funds that he’s pissing away on his laughable economic development program.But all this Markell brought on himself with his pussy support for velda. Brian Seelander as Chief political director ia as riduculous (albeit not as damaging) as KWS as insurance commissioner
He beat Colin Bonini — Colin Fucking Bonini, the biggest clown in the Delaware GOP — by 3,000 votes, when every other Democrat was winning by 17,000.
You’re really barking up the wrong tree if you think I give a flying fuck about the Democratic Party.
And if the charges weren’t true, why was a lawyer willing to say they were when the penalty for lying would have been disbarment?
He’s a radioactive turd, and as far as I can tell, you’re him.
I don’t hate him. I actually like him — except for the fact that he has people like you working for him.
Chip’s motivation is to promote himself and gain power. That’s fine for a first term Row Officer, but an executive has to be more multidimensional than that.
Winning a down ballot primary and having an independent political base are not the same thing. In Chip’s case, his opponent collapsed politically and had no structure in place to deal with the repercussions. Chip was competent enough to emerge as a viable alternative, and he won. That does not mean that he necessarily has a strong loyal base that voted for him and his platform.
Chip won’t primary Jack, that’s just stupid talk, Chip isn’t dumb.
Jack does have an independent organization and understand how to build and maintain an independent supporter base. Chip focuses on appearing as a “maverick” publicly, but doesn’t back it up with the actual work and leadership that it requires. Jack took on the establishment but he actually delivered behind the scenes too.
Also I’m hardly a Markell lackey. I just don’t live in la la land.
Geezer, I dont work for him. I think we will have to see how this plays out. Your smear campaign is not working. Flowers is the independent voice this party needs. He is making money without Jacks support, imagine what he will do if he has Jacks job. I agree, he should have another higher office.
Yeah, we’ll see how this plays out. My guess is he gets primaried now, and if the Republicans can find a decent candidate he’s out on his ear.
Smear campaign? You idiot. All he had to deal with last time was Velda, who was too stupid to quit her city contract, let alone to bring down an opponent with secrets. A real opponent would have shown up with Janet in tow. Do you think anybody doing true oppo research is going to stop with the lady at Columbia?
And just by the way: If you don’t know him and don’t work for him, how do you know how he treats women?
Holds up a bond issuance over a personnel office complaint. Sounds like the next Felix Rohatyan, a real leader.
Predict that Flowers will find himself in the KWS seat in two years. Will be interesting to watch him flounder, without family, friends or base. Doesn’t know Bowers Street from Bowers Beach. I’ll miss his spam.
Did you notice, BTW, that the bond issuance was for the Newark Charter School? Alan Levin said he’d consider running for governor to get government bond financing for the charter schools. Looks like he got his way.
MJ- Of course sexual orientation is different from gender identity and expression. The bill that passed failed to include both; it just included the former.
I’m sure there is other evidence out there, but regarding what you call Markell’s promises, here is what I found:
From the News Journal 8/12/2009
“Elkins said Markell promised equal rights advocates while campaigning
and after his election he would lead the state to ban discrimination
based on sexual orientation as well as gender identity and expression.”
Not surprised there is a clash going on.
Two big egos, one following the others climb up the ladder.
I seem to recall some pushback on Markell when he was “redefining” the office of the treasurer, too. And the accusations of being egotistical and vying for the governors slot were in abundance back then.
Turn about is fair play, as they say.
Markell should put this to bed and meet with Chip. Its a douchebag move to not even meet with someone.
I think after reading this article it’s pretty clear that Flowers has out-sized ambitions. He can try to run for governor in 2016, but I don’t think it will go well for him. The idea of holding bond issues hostage in a political fight with the governor makes me feel queasy. I’m all for principled opposition to the governor, but I don’t think he’s going about it in a smart way.
This is one of the most fact-free discussions I have seen on DL. I was open-minded and wanted to know how exactly state money was being placed at risk. Jeez, I don’t want Delaware money at risk either!
But all I learned was 99 ways to call Flowers uppity. I guess I’ll have to look into the facts myself now. Maybe I’ll post them on an open thread or something.
heh, puck called it.
Or maybe you can read the News-Journal article, Puck. Plenty of facts there.
Or, you can tune into today’s Al Mascitti Show. We’ll be discussing facts, and, in context.
Oh, and implying racist intent isn’t exactly fact-based either, now is it?
Et tu, El Som?
Sorry, Puck. Call ’em as I see ’em. Probably has something to do with my 28 years of umpiring Little League and Senior League baseball.
I wasn’t always right (just ask the players and managers), but it wasn’t from lack of trying.
Its funny how the Gov can get people to come on DL and lie about a bond. The fact is Visalli refused to give Flowers an expert to evaluate bonds for over 6 months and then the administration forced him to sign off on bonds without an expert. Hmmm…who is holding who hoatage? Lets be honest people, voters dont care and all this story does is make the party look bad. Both Markell and Flowers have issues and all the politicos (I mean staffers) on this blog should be giving their official better advice. Markell will win and short of Flowers burning the place down, he will win. Puck is right, if people are going to come on this site to spin, please use facts.
What does Als show have to do with anything? Are you going to seriously have a more public food fight? Yeah, that’s great political advice moron.
“all this story does is make the party look bad.”
So what? Are you of the opinion that the public shouldn’t know what goes on behind the facade?
Before I read Cassandra’s post and the NJ article, I knew next to nothing about Flowers and had no axe to grind. But to me, based on the article, Flowers’s contentions have the ring of truth. I am still willing to be convinced otherwise, but I’ll need to hear some reality-based argument to change my mind.
Here’s my hasty roundup and preliminary outline of the issues, minus all the personal attacks. If I get time I’ll post followup and citations. If I missed something, please add it in the comments.
I think these are the unspoken basis for the assertions that the governor’s team passed on to the News Journal. Maybe El Som and Al would care to talk about them on the radio.
1. Flowers is a member of the 8-member Cash Management Policy Board. Three other members are the Governor’s men, plus four old-school bankers.
2. Pension funds are not in the Board’s jurisdiction. I haven’t yet figured out who manages pension funds but it shouldn’t be hard to find.
3. In April 2011, Flowers proposed moving $200 million of state money into local Delaware banks. Read the article; there’s more good stuff than I can quote here:
The board shunned his proposal. Flowers suggested that:
D’ya think?
I think bankers have earned our skepticism, and we should give it to them.
4. Flowers wanted to hire an investment consultant to analyze returns on Delaware’s investments, among other duties. The Governor’s office was dragging its feet on approval, so Flowers tied the unfilled position to his ability to review the NCS bond issue.
[Ed: This happens all the time in politics: “You want something from me? How about that – I want something from you. Let’s deal.”]
There is the potential for some cronyism there, but I don’t know if that is the case or not.
5. There are also some issues swirling around about what Flowers can and can’t do unilaterally. The answers exist and will be found in the Delaware Code and in the courts if necessary, not on the blogs. Flowers isn’t going to do anything he isn’t authorized to do.
5. There’s something about Flowers hiring a lawyer with his own money because Beau is representing the State against Treasury on some matter, and then applying for state funding for his lawyer (which is not that unusual and is entitled to do). Maybe somebody can flesh this out for me.
Maybe if the Governor had met with him, nobody would have to spend money on lawyers?
6. I couldn’t find any example of Flowers actually moving money or generating any new risk. Maybe I missed something?
Once Flowers puts out some specifics, then we can evaluate the risk vs. returns. Until then, claiming risk to pensions is just a smear-and-fear campaign from the Governor’s office and bloggers alike.
I think what the bankers and the Governor’s men fear is that this consultant will help Flowers issue annual reports showing that the money is being under-utilized to the benefit of the old-school banks where it is currently kept, and to the detriment of the taxpayers.
Ezra, the problem is trying to lump in gender identity & “expression” (whatever that is) with sexual orientation, which is what HRC and other gay “leaders” try to do. It’s a losing proposition. Personally, I think that the transgender community needs to get its own parade and stop trying to hitch a ride on the gay and lesbian rights train. I know I’m in the minority in the gay community on this, but just my 2 cents.
Kudos for this line….
“I think bankers have earned our skepticism, and we should give it to them.” — Puck
Just had to single it out for honorable mention…..
According to the NJ, Flowers had this expert — he just wanted this person to have a new title and higher salary. So in an era where the state is supposed to be managing expenses — including personnel — Flowers is just going to hold hostage a bond issue. Not exactly an astute move.
What is interesting about this “facts” business is that the Flowers defenders can’t provide any. I asked for a pointer to validate the increased fund yield Flowers claimed and there are crickets on that. But if you go to this report that gets referred to, you don’t find a genuine assessment of the treasury — you find an assessment of the activity of the Treasurer’s Office. With lots of fluffed language, marketing spin and little in the way of data to validate this stuff. See for yourself. Someone spent a pretty penny on this useless bit of business.
But if you go to page 8 and 9 as referenced, what you find are the things the Treasurer’s Office wants to do to change the Cash Management Control Board policy. What is missing from this is that this stuff is the purview of the Board and apparently Flowers hasn’t been able to sell these changes to policy to this Board. So the process is working, but not in the way that Flowers wants.
If you compare the asset allocations shown in Flower’s “report” to the investment guidelines I linked to above, it looks to me that investment managers are doing pretty much what they can within the pretty small and conservative box they have to play in.
What is also interesting to me is that when we were looking at all of the stuff Flowers wanted to take on when he was campaigning, we kept being told that he could do all of this with the staff already at hand in the office. Now we find that he needs an Independent Investment Advisor to the tune of $300+K a year. And in keeping with the report’s concern about transparency for the Cash Management Board, I wonder how this adviser was procured and where I can get a copy of this contract.
The story here is that we have an ambitious Treasurer apparently without much in terms of political or management skills to build the kind of consensus that is needed to do some of the stuff he wants. And we’re supposed to believe that this is somehow everyone’s fault but his.
Hey everyone! look over here!!! no need to focus on the fact the Del Democrats are forcing us to choose between a convicted criminal and a not-yet convicted criminal! Make sure you pay lots of attention to the fight between the Jewish guy and the Black guy!
Pretty good summary, Puck.
Couple more points:
1. For some reason, 18 months after the fact, the governor’s team is making an issue of the incoming treasurer’s request for different office space — an issue long since resolved. The implication here is that the treasurer is somehow out of line … but the fact is that office accommodations go through the Division of Facilities Management, part of the Office of Management and Budget. So, the treasurer was working within the system, and proposing an option for improved office space, and he gets called on it 18 months later?
2. On the Cash Management board issue, the Treasurer has never said he would increase the state’s investment risk. The point of hiring Credit Suisse is to determine whether investment policies/procedures, etc., might be adjusted so that returns could be increased without incurring additional risk.
3. While, as the title of this thread makes clear, it’s no secret that the governor and the treasurer don’t get along, let’s look carefully at who is doing the criticizing here. The documents/emails referenced in the article were all pointed out to the reporter by the governor’s team — and cumulatively were meant to be critical of the treasurer. The treasurer had not criticized the governor publicly prior to publication of this article, and all criticisms voiced were made in response to the reporter’s questions.
It should be obvious who was picking this fight, and who took the story to the news media. In all seriousness, it wasn’t worth the effort — especially when many of these issues could have been resolved if the governor could have found a half-hour at some point within the past year or so to sit down and meet with the treasurer.
Chip might well be right; he certainly has a point that the board should meet more often than every six months.
But Cass has it right: Chip seems to be one of those people who reacts badly when his good ideas run up against institutional inertia (believe me, I know the type; I see one in the mirror every morning).
The ironic thing is that he can be quite charming. But he seems to have no awareness of how people are going to react to protect their own turf.
I think the reporter blindsided the governor a bit by writing a fair and balanced story, which is probably not the effect the governor’s team was hoping for. Flowers comes off well in this article.
Remember, the voters elected Chip over the Establishment candidate. The story needs to play out some more before conclusions can be drawn, but so far it looks like the voters made the right choice.
I have known Chip a very long time . . . I will stay out of the who is right or wrong debate on this one . . . but he is a “brilliant” well educated young attorney and it will be interesting on how this plays out (if it does at all) . . .
19803: You do understand how politics works, right? “Plays well with others” is not part of the report card.
You don’t have to be a close student of human nature to understand that in politics, some people have juice, and others don’t. A governor with a 50-plus percent approval rate has juice; a relative neophyte in a lower office doesn’t.
Show me, please, a situation in which the person with juice decides to share that juice with someone who doesn’t have any. It happens occasionally, but not when the person without the juice throws a tantrum.
The Chip supporters who wonder why this story came out should look no further than the NCS bond situation. How is it different from the national GOP holding the debt-limit ceiling hostage?
Puck: Your record remains intact: Often wrong, never in doubt.
“the voters elected Chip over the Establishment candidate. ”
Because the establishment candidate had a sweetheart contract with the city. Look up the general-election numbers: He barely beat Colin Bonini, a statewide laughingstock. And he wouldn’t have done that without El Somnambulo pointing out Bonini’s dreadful attendance record.
You don’t pull on Superman’s cape. You don’t spit into the wind. Etc.
The bottom line is this story did not generate the throwback that the Jack and his team thought it would. Now we have this lovely post by Cassandra to stir the point. I wonder if that was on purpose??
I see a lot of criticism about Chip and his tactics, but if you are paying attention, he is not trying to do anything outside of the scope of his position despite what “Jack’s people” are saying. It is clear that there is a lot of resistance to change. Are Chip’s tactics perfect – no they aren’t for reasons I think we all understand, some of it is him but a lot is on the old regime. Not meeting with the elected State Treasurer at all is inexcusable and lets us all know that Jack is petty. I don’t care if you’re mad your appointee was beaten, as a member of the same party, Jack should have met with Chip. Period. Who cares if you don’t like each other?
There is so much back story to all of this that “facts” as Cassandra put it will never really be put out there. I am not willing to put my complete belief in everything the NJ reported. Sorry. Some of that article was choppy and did not expound on information relating to the emails obtained by the NJ.
This whole thing is a bad look for the democratic party.
Again, the astroturfing isn’t going to convince anyone of anything. I don’t know how many of you there actually are, but you all keep making the exact same dubious points:
*Jack should meet with him (I wouldn’t meet with someone who pulled this shit on me, and neither would you, so I don’t know where that comes from);
*”The bottom line is this story did not generate the throwback that the Jack and his team thought it would.”
Says who? How would you know?
*It’s somehow bad for the Democratic Party, as if anyone in the general public gives a rip. Hint: They don’t.
You can plug that anti-Markell line as long as you want, it’s not going to help. As usual, the people who think they’re helping Flowers are hurting him.
Agreed. It really looks bad for a person when anonymous staffers with uninspired blog names whine about how unfair politics is n their behalf.
I had a pretty neutral opinion of FLowers, but thanks to Good Grief and the Nazi, PLeaseStopCass, i’ve decided to vote against him on general principles. Good job guys, you lost a vote for your boss.
To suggest the Wilmington mayoral race would deliver Chip a victory over Jack in a primary is to make an assumption that firstly isn’t true and secondly contains an implication I don’t think you wanna make right now.
I’ll tell you what I see – a lower level guy trying to punch above his level and getting slapped down. This may or not be fair, but this is what I see from the article. I don’t know enough about how Chip wants to change the state investments to judge who’s right in this case but when I see him say we can get better returns I hear riskier investments and that scares me. I want the state investments to be staid and boring.
Also, I don’t really see what Flowers gets out of this fight and making it public. I’ve never heard of an activist State Treasurer and I’m not sure I want one. What is Flowers going to tell the voters – that he’s so independent that he took on the governor? With a popular governor, would that work for him? I can’t see it.
I don’t know enough about how Chip wants to change the state investments to judge who’s right in this case but when I see him say we can get better returns I hear riskier investments and that scares me. I want the state investments to be staid and boring.
Your honesty about being a low information voter is refreshing and insightful. And I don’t mean that in a critical way – I was a low-information voter on this topic until I started looking into it yesterday. Now I have perhaps lifted myself an inch or two off the information floor. A little information can keep some of that fear away.
What I found is that Flowers has not moved any money. He does believe that better returns can be had, and wants to look into it.
I also found there are sufficient controls to keep him from unilaterally enacting any of his plans, which is a good thing for any elected official. There are laws in place that can only be changed by the General Assembly, and almost certainly won’t be changed. To actually move money, Flowers’s proposals would have to be vetted by at least one level of control. And if the vetting concludes the changes would produce more revenue without excessive risk, good for us!
So there is no risk in the Treasurer issuing reports on the returns of our current funds vs. the returns that could be had in other funds. That is just like the required mailers you get from your 401(k) every year. I for one would be very happy to see something like that for our state money.
And given the composition of the Cash Management Board, there is every reason to suspect an independent review would be very useful. The intensity of the resistance to outside scrutiny is a red flag for any auditor.
Will someone please explain this concept to President Obama and his
lackeysadvisors?This is unbelievable. Flowers packs the comment section with his piss-ant acolytes, pens a few comments himself, and we all take the bait. And now I am, too. Hey Chip: fuck you. Fuck your penny-ante row office and your absurd delusions of grandeur. Fuck your ridiculous color-coded TSA charts. Fuck your $40,000 Bloomberg terminal. Fuck the People’s Treasury, the People’s Elbow and the People’s Court. No one opposes you because you bring bold new ideas to the table. They oppose you because you’re a laughable twit with an outsized ego. You’re Mike Protack without the commercial pilot’s license.
Wow, Mr. Prickinson! You’re beginning to sound like the Tea Party nuts that we are fighting against. Why so much hate toward such an insignificant office? Mr. Flowers sure seems to have struck a nerve with you. I find his style of leadership to be refreshing in Delaware politics. I’m sick of the good ole’ boy network and of the ego our current administration exudes. Why fault Mr. Flowers for doing his job and for trying to make the office more productive and effective. God forbid a state agency actually be efficient and industrious. I think some of our other elected officials could learn a lesson from Mr. Flowers. Work hard, and put the people of the state first- not petty politics.
I hear Flowers will be on the Mascitti show this morning at 10:00am. Look forward to hearing what he has to say.
The astroturfing is truly pathetic. You’re not fooling anybody. Nobody who’s not a political junkie even knows who Chip Flowers is, let alone finding his “style of leadership to be refreshing in Delaware politics.”
Hey Chip — are you actually paying people to write this bullshit? Because if you are, you’re getting ripped off.
Why are you so angry? I’m not on Mr. Flowers payroll. I’m a Delaware voter and taxpayer with an opinion, just like you. Why are you attacking me?
Look up the word astroturfing and you’ll get why he’s angry.
What about my comment do you interpret as anger? It’s simple observation.
I can tell it’s bullshit because Chip Flowers doesn’t have any oppotunity to show “leadership” in his current position. It’s a self-contained office. If you go around writing stuff that sounds like a press clipping, don’t be surprised when you’re called on it.
He doesn’t have an opportunity to show leadership? I’m from Sussex County, and I have seen Mr. Flowers at dozens of events and festivals. I’ve read the articles on here and in the newspaper. I’ve seen enough to know that I like what he brings to the table. He’s smart, witty, and hardworking.
One thing about this recent article that really bothers me is that the governor won’t even meet with Mr. Flowers. How is that effective leadership?
Also, please don’t accuse me of something I’m not. You guys sure do know how to make someone feel welcome on your forums. Anytime someone posts something that you don’t agree with, you call them a fake or “astroturfer”. That’s the same type of stereotyping and negativity that the other side often employs.
That’s not leadership, that’s politicking. And now I’m wondering what the heck you’re doing at “dozens of events and festivals.”
I didn’t accuse you of anything. If you could read as well as you claim, you’d notice that I said “IF you’re paying for this.”
I call people who have never posted here before but show up just to fluff a politician astroturfers because that’s usually what they are. Real commenters have things to say about all the issues of the day, and they don’t repeat the same talking points that all the other astroturfers have used.
The “boo hoo hoo, the governor won’t meet with me” line, for example. Where’s the evidence that Flowers has even asked for a meeting? The article never said the governor refused to meet with him, just that he hadn’t met with him.
Why should he? Why should he give a flying fuck what Chip Flowers thinks about anything?
And, just by the by, Chip is much better at appearing to work than doing the work itself. It’s the hallmark of his career.
Wow…you have won. I don’t appreciate the language you use, and I will no longer post on this site. Mission accomplished. It’s a shame that I can’t support an elected official that I like without being cursed at by a hack radio host. Enjoy your day! I won’t let your negativity impact mine.
Boo hoo hoo. Mommy, he said bad words!
Who do you think you’re fooling? You’ve never posted here before but you claim to know who I am? Jesus, you people are assholes. IF you can’t take the heat, get the f…, um, the heck off the intertoobz.
MJ – I’m not sure how much you should be commenting about this if you have not taken the time to educate yourself enough to know what gender expression means. I have included at the end of this post an explanation from The Gill Foundation.
Yes, sexual orientation is something quite distinct from gender identity and expression. Gender identity and expression seems like an extension of the women’s rights movement – saying that we don’t just deserve equal rights based on our biological sex but also based on our gender and gender portrayal. I can say that being a teacher gender expression is definitely something that comes up in discrimination and peer harassment.
Of course, if you think about gay rights, society seems to discriminate even more against gay men who have a more feminine gender expression and lesbian women who have a more masculine gender expression. So even within the LGBQ umbrella, gender expression ends up being a factor in discrimination.
In some ways, gay rights and transgender rights have more in common than womens rights and transgender rights. For example, much of society views it as the norm to be a man or a woman and to identify as such. We also live in a heteronormative culture. Many people view someone being gay or being trans as wrong. Not the case with sex.
The fight for equal rights based on sexual orientation and the fight for equal rights based on gender identity and expression are fights for equal rights, fights for civil rights, fights for fairness and justice. They are fights against people and structures that promote discrimination. They are fights for liberation. There is a great deal of intersectionality between our fights. Why would we not want to work together and support teach other? We are working towards a shared vision of our communities and society. People I know who are progressive don’t choose groups of people to stand up for and groups of people to discriminate against. They support equal rights because they believe in fairness.
——————
“Gender expression” refers to the ways in which we each manifest masculinity or femininity. It is usually an extension of our “gender identity,” our innate sense of being male or female. Each of us expresses a particular gender every day – by the way we style our hair, select our clothing, or even the way we stand. Our appearance, speech, behavior, movement, and other factors signal that we feel – and wish to be understood – as masculine or feminine, or as a man or a woman.
For some of us, our gender expression may not match our biological sex. That is, while other people see us as being male or female, we may or may not fit their expectations of masculinity or femininity because of the way we look, act, or dress.
People whose gender expression is not what we might expect represent many different backgrounds – their age, sex, race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation has no bearing on their gender expression.
Sounds worthy of its own thread.
Why can’t orientation be a broad term that covers expression? Seems perfectly reasonable with some modifications to the definition you gave.
Geezer, uh, I don’t know how many viewers read this blog but I suspect it is a healthy number…perhaps thousands per day. My blog stats are averaging 1,100 hits a day these days with practically no commentary (although I would savor reading the opinions of the haters of what I write, no doubt).
If viewer volume is part of what garners Delaware Liberal the titled ‘Foremost DE political Blog’, then there are obviously a very high number of people who read but do not type since the ‘regulars’ who comment can be counted on fingers and maybe some toes.
Yet you go into spittled fits when someone new comments with some notion you disagree with and you jump to conclusions about their motive and identity – fits often painfully embarrassing to witness.
The greatest irony is when you do in fact know the identity of an anony, smear them here with the worst possible tirade and then treat them as politely as pie during your day job.
It is entirely within the possible that the many-imagined reading lurkers of this blog are real people with normal interests who simply prefer silence until compelled to de-lurk and comment on something that irks or inspires.
I know that I heard yesterday that there is a rising disgust and impatience in organized segments of the African American community (from normal people with normal interests) with the treatment of Chip Flowers by the DEM elite and there are plans to derail certain endorsed 2012 candidates as payback.
Just sayin’.
Charlie Copeland has a funny on the Gov-Treas. dispute, btw.
I know that I heard yesterday that there is a rising disgust and impatience in organized segments of the African American community (from normal people with normal interests) with the treatment of Chip Flowers by the DEM elite and there are plans to derail certain endorsed 2012 candidates as payback.
And here we take note of stone cold bullshit. Sheesh.
just like how zillions of homophobic black people were going to vote for Romney now that Obama has come out, right?
The WDEL morning show embarrassed itself Tuesday and Wednesday. It was painful to hear.
On the Tuesday show, the usually with-it El Som kept working in comments about pension funds being at risk, and nobody corrected him. But if you look at Flowers’ plan, it specifically excludes pension funds. And pensions are not in the Cash Management Board jurisdiction. Pehsion funds are managed by a separate board (appointed by the governor I think).
It seemed like the last half of the discussion was all about how Flowers was straying from the Delaware Way and therefore was ruining his chances to be governor (WTF? Since when is this a basis for criticism or even a rational argument?)
On Wednesday, Flowers remained entirely credible and reasonable and projected appeal despite a passive-aggresive interview.
The emotions at work seemd to be clouding the objectivity of two of Delaware’s best BS-spotters. I have no idea what could generate these kinds of emotions. What I didn’t hear is any skepticism toward the Establishment banks and Delaware Way pols that Flowers is trying to shine sunlight on.
Flowers hasn’t moved one red cent of Delaware money. But I for one am looking forward to an annual report showing current returns, vs potential returns for doing something different. If it has unacceptable risk I’ll be the first to say so.
It’s about time some outside experts took a peek inside the Delaware way on this cash management. I’d love to know who is profiting from the current management and by how much.
Pensions are under the governor. There is a separate fund, separate board all appointed by the governor for pensions. El Som should check his facts before going on the air and scaring people.
The interview with Chip Flowers is posted at WDEL.com. You can decide for yourself if it was a “passive-aggressive” interview.
@Nancy: I’m very sorry that you don’t understand the difference between an insider-politics blog — and no matter how many people read it, that’s what it is — and a general audience. I’m not particularly interested in whether you find my methods worthwhile, but I’m not about to share them with you. Sorry.
“It seemed like the last half of the discussion was all about how Flowers was straying from the Delaware Way and therefore was ruining his chances to be governor (WTF? Since when is this a basis for criticism or even a rational argument?)”
Not his chances for governor. HIs chances for anything.
Your failure to understand the importance of a relatively powerless officeholder learning how not to step on important toes shows that you don’t know enough to be commenting on a blog about politics. Politics isn’t policy, it’s people skills. Chip needs to work on his.
Ezra, please don’t think about lecturing me on the gay rights movement and its history. I’ve been on the front lines since the 1970’s. I don’t deny that transgender rights are civil rights, but it has NOTHING to do with the LGB rights movement. As I said, they need to get their own parade and stop trying to hitch a ride on the gay rights movement.
One reason not all civil rights groups work together is because in the end, they don’t all agree on the final goal. For example, while many members of the NAACP support equal rights for gays and lesbians, many do not support marriage equality. Thus, they take a back seat when it comes to that fight.
And don’t even start with laying down a litmus test as to what a “progressive” is or isn’t.
Ah yes, this is exactly what we should be doing: fighting each other.
This is idiotic. Republicans want you both and both groups dead, and yet you are fighting each other.
This is why Democrats lose. Right fucking here.
I’ve never met Chip but I am starting to like his people skills. When Markell was dragging his feet on the vacant job, Chip knew exactly how to get his attention and bring him back to the table. That’s called “getting things done.” The man knows when he is being shat on.
Do you have anything to say about the actual policy issues at stake, other than to keep trying to gin up a narrative of personal flaws?
For example, while many members of the NAACP support equal rights for gays and lesbians, many do not support marriage equality. Thus, they take a back seat when it comes to that fight.
Ignoring, of course, that the NAACP came out in support of marriage equality. Civil rights is civil rights. The litmus test should be that you are an American entitled to those rights — not whether or not you are in some approved club.
“This is why Democrats lose. Right fucking here.”
DD, gay rights is one of the few issues Democrats are making progress on. Maybe the debating brings focus and energy. I wish we could debate Bowles Simpson or other economic issue this vigorously.
“The man knows when he is being shat on.”
I’m trying to imagine what world you live in, where that’s a “skill.”
If you were Chip, wouldn’t you consider trying to figure out how not to get shat on in the first place? I would.
After that invertiew, I’m now of the opinion that this was another of Chip’s “Horton Hears a Who” moves — reminding people that he’s there. Hey, it impressed you, so it’s not an entirely foolish thing to do.
I guess in your world Geezer, people skills consist of keeping your mouth shut and signing whatever paper is shoved in front of you.
Actually I know that’s not true about you – so why are you making an exception for Flowers?
Because I’m not trying to force my way into a closed power structure. Chip is. Not to fall into a dreaded intertoobz meme, but: Chip, UR DOING IT WRONG!
” As I said, they need to get their own parade and stop trying to hitch a ride on the gay rights movement.”
how very inclusive of you.
Since I like Democrats insomuch as they are willing to pour rhetorical boiling oil on Republican’s – how is Flowers making out by that standard?
I haven’t had a chance to listen to the interview.
The bankers seem to fear Chip’s independent review as if it were boiling oil. Does that count?
I don’t think a Democratic treasurer has a lot of latitude to be a partisan attack dog, having to work with Republicans in the financial world. I guess a rousing partisan speech at election times would be OK though. It sounds like Chip is capable of it.
He did say something about Nixon though 🙂
The interview consists of running through the Governor’s charges in the News Journal article and asking Chip to answer them. To be fair, I guess that was the news of the day.
I actually think he has a good point about the board meeting more often. The argument is about tactics — and the tactic that makes me see red (Nancy is right about that, I go completely insane whenever I see it) is the astroturfing. I will post something separate on that.
According to the article, the job wasn’t a new one, but one Flowers wanted to reclassify. The reclassification process takes a significant deal of time, and can’t just be done at the drop of a hat. I doubt Markell got involved. Sounds to me like Chip got impatient.
He also failed to clear a $20K contract with OMB and started complaining about his office right after taking over. What about that inability to follow procedures and self-centeredness makes him a leader you idiots want to follow?
Every major state agency is in Carvel. The exception was the treasurer’s office under Velda. Facts and context.
I’m sorry, but I don’t want someone without a college degree and experience/expertise making decisions about the use of the State of Delaware’s money. Some things do require qualifications greater than a high school diploma. And when we are talking about significant dollars, there better be some qualifications to back up the person making the decisions. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable request at all. Especially when you were told SIX months before hand.
SW,
Permit me to deal with Chip “complaining about his office right after taking over” and your assertion about “inability to follow procedures.”
Here goes:
After Markell became governor, the treasurer’s Wilmington office was moved from the Carvel State Office Building into smaller quarters in the old Family Court building. (Not sure of the reason why, but I believe other agencies in Carvel Building were expanding, and treasurer’s office got bounced in a domino-effect type move.)
So, Chip gets elected, and requests office space in Carvel Building — just as it was when Markell was treasurer. He can’t just move into a new office — he has to ask. And the people to ask are the Division of Facilities Management, part of the Office of Management and Budget.
In other words — Chip is looking for the same office accommodations that the governor had when he was treasurer, and he’s going through the right people in the chain of command to make the request.
Feel free to explain how that’s an inability to follow procedures.
OK, so let me address the astroturfing issue, and hopefully a final word about this tempest in a teacup:
On this one thread alone, we find no fewer than 12 screen names that, to my knowledge, have never appeared in the comments section of this blog before. Nine of them were pro-Flowers, three anti-, showing that his supporters weren’t the only people who saw this as an opportunity to piss in the pool of public opinion.
Nancy wrote, “you go into spittled fits when someone new comments with some notion you disagree with and you jump to conclusions about their motive and identity.”
Yes, yes I do go into spittled fits. But it’s not because of “some notion I disagree with.” Look at the content of some of those comments: They read like passages from a letter of recommendation. These are not comments generated by people who just happen to think what they wrote and were motivated to break their silence. I’ve been interviewing people for decades; I know how real people talk, and these comments flunk that test. These previously silent lurkers were pretty obviously urged to write these comments, even before you factor in that they all hit the same talking points.
Why does astroturfing drive me insane? I’m not sure, but I think it relates to coming of age during the Nixon presidency, when lying, cheating and misrepresenting public opinion were raised to standard procedure. It’s essentially a form of fraud (and one of its most accomplished practitioners in Delaware politics is the same guy you have made common cause with in your zeal to destroy Paul Clark). You’re free to ignore my comments, but every time I suspect astroturfing I will call attention to it.
If you listen to that interview, you’ll hear Chip say that he asked his supporters to tone down the rhetoric. Who do you think he was talking about, considering that nobody in the article was quoted saying inflammatory things about Markell except for Chip himself?
(Just by the by, comparing a Democratic governor to Richard Nixon is — can we agree on this? — outrageously inflammatory. That, Puck, is what I mean by lacking political skills. That’s the sort of remark that will be remembered for years by those he targeted, and not in a good way.)
The truth as I see it is simple: Chip has a very small base of public support, and he was seeking to make it appear larger by telling people to astroturf Cassandra’s post. I don’t know if some of the more outrageous bullshit about racism came from Chip himself or one of his acolytes got carried away, but there’s no way I”ll let that crap stand. I tried to subtly remind that person that Chip Flowers is in no position to cast aspersions on other people’s motives; that person chose to pretend that the legal record is something other than what it is, which led to a more revealing discussion of the charges.
Let’s be clear: An affidavit was sworn out with those allegations. That the person failed to show up to testify does not negate a legally binding affidavit, in this case or in Tom Carper’s. Those are the facts. Spin them all you want. I merely said it’s the sort of thing that would make a more circumspect politician hesitate to say inflammatory things. Obviously, we are not dealing here with a circumspect politician.
I will assume that Puck does not have an insider’s view of politics, and so does not realize how many ways Chip has overstepped the boundaries. Add that interview to the article, and he has basically declared war on the Markell administration. When an interviewer gives you a chance to take back your comments comparing your own party’s governor to Nixon, and you instead use the opportunity to explain EXACTLY HOW that governor is like Nixon, you have pretty much fucked yourself permanently. When an interviewer gives you a chance to take back your criticism of the governor’s Fisker overture, and you instead reiterate that you think it was done incorrectly, you are looking for attention in the worst way.
Chip Flowers is a smart guy with a lot of ideas for doing things, but not much of a plan for how to convince others — whom he cannot act without — to join him. The political graveyards are full of would-be politicians who overestimated their ability to buck the system.
I’ve read some pretty petty B.S non-issues in my time, but this is easily top 10.
I guess anything to distract the liberal populace from Obama trying to give international corporations free reign to do whatever the want eh? that wouldn’t be a very pleasant conversation, no would it? Yes, i know, romney would do the same thing.
Geezer, you take this forum and the discussions had on it far too seriously. would you react the same way if we, as human beings were actually sitting near each other (ghasp) talking, and some new people who also wanted to use their voices showed up?
PIssing in the pool of public opinion? who are you to make such a judgmental remark? you claim to be a political insider, but insiders are everything that’s wrong with politics. They think politics is there to serve them, that there are ways to do things and those sacred ways dare not be changed… what a conservative way of thinking……. It isnt what is best for the party and what makes the boss’s ego feel the best. Anyone willing to recognize that their boss is NOT a person who is elected to a higher office than they are gets my respect.
“would you react the same way if we, as human beings were actually sitting near each other (ghasp) talking, and some new people who also wanted to use their voices showed up?”
Ben, do you really not understand the difference between somebody showing up in person and somebody adopting a fake name and just claiming to be a new person? Tell me you’re not that stupid.
I explained exactly why I called it “pissing in the pool of public opinion” — they are interested parties pretending to be disinterested parties. If you don’t understand that, it’s not my problem. And frankly, I don’t read this forum to hear what you have to say, but I don’t tell you to shut up. You are who you are; you don’t use different screen names every time you post.
If you don’t like what I write, do what I do when I see your name: Skip the comment.
heh. someone using a fake name shouldn’t throw rocks at people for using a fake name.
Geezer, i say what i say because i generally agree with you and enjoy what you wright…. although everything i have ever posted here seeks your approval and yours alone, i guess there isnt any point anymore 🙁
Now im using MY fake name to tell YOUR fake name to chill the fake out. this is a very stupid issue. Not just the fact that the treasurer wants a bigger office and the governor has better things to worry about…. but the whole “only the proper fake names should be listened to and respected. It’s childish and sad. Everyone here is an interested party. by taking time out of the day that could be better spent in so many other ways to state an opinion, you are supporting or opposing some agenda.
I understand Flowers has pissed off the Governor, or at least people close to the governor. Actually I didn’t know anything about it, until they decided to put it out to the News Journal.
But maybe the Governor needed to be pissed off in this case.
I don’t get the emphasis on politics, or kowtowing to “juice.” The Treasurer has all the juice he needs in Delaware law. What’s Markell going to do – stop him from signing checks?
The worst that can happen is Flowers doesn’t get a hearing on his ideas – which looks like the likely outcome. So he’ll keep looking for ways to push forward within the law, and we’ll keep seeing more personal attacks in return. Yawn.
If Flowers succeeds in issuing independent reports on investment performance and reasonable alternatives, that’s a win. If he doesn’t – well, then he won’t be any worse a Treasurer than Markell or Carper.
The astroturfing is completely understandable. When the blog contributers (along with Geezer, the fifth Beatle) devote this much space to sneering character attacks, it is no surprise that supporters will show up to offer the opposite opinions to provide balance. It’s like two competing armies of dung beetles each trying to push the ball in the opposite direction. The issues seem to be lost.
Ben: I use a “fake name” because certain liberals tried to create legal problems for me when I used my real one. Most people are aware of who I am, but for legal reasons I can neither confirm nor deny my identity.
Puck: Your charge that Flowers deployed his acolytes in reaction is false. Cassandra’s post is hardly an attack on Flowers — it’s exactly what someone like her, who works within the party but is not close to either the governor or the treasurer, could be expected to say. She even criticized Markell.
Yet the attack on her was over-the-top — one shill claimed she was told to write it by Markell (ironic, eh?) and that Markell was a racist.
Your mileage obviously varies. I prefer mine.
Blog contributors who sometimes launch attacks without knowing the issue. One on radio attacked Flowers over pensions even though he was informed by “astroturfers” Flowers has nothing to do with pensions. Which is worse?
Puck: Let me give you a journalistic perspective on that article: It wouldn’t even BE an article if Flowers hadn’t made his cracks about Fisker and Nixon. In political journalism, an elected official criticizing his own party’s governor is newsworthy — but the rules of Gannett journalism force the writer to pretend that something greater than a personality-based pissing match is at stake, because otherwise it’s “inside baseball” and Gannett is all about pretending it’s in touch with actual people.
If the News Journal were an honest newspaper instead of a piece of Gannett fishwrap, it would have simply run a story saying “Flowers compares Markell to Nixon” and let it go at that.
Thanks for that. It does clear some things up.
“Which is worse?”
Than what? Why are YOU not using a real name? I have an actual reason; do you?
“The Treasurer has all the juice he needs in Delaware law.”
No, the responsibilities of the office were gutted during the term of the last Republican to hold the office and turned over to the finance department. Chip is trying to get some of those responsibilities back. This naturally pisses off those who don’t want to give them to him, namely the governor’s office and its subsidiaries like DEDO and finance.
If the intent was to take Flowers to the woodshed, I don’t think it worked. I keep hearing how bad this article is for Flowers, but I’m not seeing it.
Do I have it straight that the Fisker and Nixon comments were in internal mail, and were unknown to the public until the Sunday article? (sorry, it’s not worth circumventing the paywall again to figure it out).
If so, then the administration brought something like a Streisand Effect down upon its own head. Last week I knew nothing about this; now I want to know more, even more than was reported.
Note that the Fisker and Nixon comments are reported, but not the previous comments that provoked that response. I personally would like to review some of these Nixonian smears and draw my own conclusions.
For the Fisker thing, agreed – probably better to have kept his mouth shut on that one. I think he knows that. But I’d still like to see the context of that conversation.
Mediawatch: Since you know so much, please explain why Chip needed to move his offices. Moving offices costs a ton of money, something the state is a bit short on. Why was that so important to do? Why did he start whining about it right after taking office?
Proper procedure would have been to get sworn in and do his job, not bitch & moan about why he’s not at the grownup table.
As I noted earlier, the fact that you have a positive view of Flowers out of all this shows that he’s not entirely off-base.
To be clear, the article isn’t bad for Flowers with the public. I’m talking strictly about how this will be viewed by the people that Flowers ultimately must work with. Who will want to ally with him if they perceive him as an enemy of a popular governor?
Blog contributors who sometimes launch attacks without knowing the issue. One on radio attacked Flowers over pensions even though he was informed by “astroturfers” Flowers has nothing to do with pensions.
I’m calling bullshit on this one. This astroturfer is creating an argument that isn’t there. In this argument, who manages the pensions only gets brought up by the astroturfers. The argement being made by El Som and others here is not about pensions — it is about having the money on hand to pay those pensions. Which is the business of the Cash Management Board — making sure that there is ready cash to pay obligations and letting that cash do a little work along the way. No one has explained what those riskier investments might be — whether that means having funds wrapped up in longer term instruments, or more volatile instruments — either of which could reduce available funds to pay the bills (including pensions for our clueless astroturfer).
So we’re done with that strawman. You will need to take that someplace else if you still want to work that braindead angle.
Nixon started the EPA and was a big supporter of a lot of things liberals today are too piss-pants to even name. It’s almost a endorsement of someone’s progressivism to be compared to him.
“Who will want to ally with him if they perceive him as an enemy of a popular governor?”
people who dont care what middle school- level personal drama their employees (elected officials) have with each other as long as it doesn’t effect how they serve them. Flowers could give Markell swirrlies in the gym locker room every morning for all I care, as long as they both do their jobs. Once it does, I, for one, blame everyone involved.
Ben: You, and the voters, aren’t the target audience.
And “Nixonian” does not mean “environmentally enlightened.”
Who will want to ally with him if they perceive him as an enemy of a popular governor?
More importantly — at least to me — is who will want to ally with him if they perceive that he can’t be counted on to demonstrate some leadership? Leadership in this case (as I’ve mentioned before) is not just having ideas, but being able to build the consensus and support to get those ideas implemented in an arena where you do not control all of the pieces on the board. Being able to do that requires a sharp management skill set which is clearly lacking in Chip’s case here.
Then perhaps Cassandra, you should be asking why the cash management board meets twice a year and for the rest of the year does nothing? Chip has no unilateral authority to do anything with those pension funds, it’s the board that makes those decisions. It really isn’t rocket science.
The argement being made by El Som and others here is not about pensions
Is that the story you are sticking with? Are you going to make me post the audio?
it is about having the money on hand to pay those pensions. Which is the business of the Cash Management Board
*sigh*
I knew I’d have to do this sooner or later. You are entitled to your own opinion but… you know how the rest of that goes.
And from Flowers’ campaign paper:
Flowers’ “framework” mentions nothing about pension funds. His OFI proposal is a non-starter anyway. What is viable and completely within his authority is to bring independent review to current investment strategies. I am looking forward to that.
Pension funds are managed by the Office of Pensions, which interestingly has hired its own independent consultant (KPMG):
Is money managed by the cash board ever pulled into the pension fund for contributions or to make up shortfalls?
I know it is the Board that makes those decisions, which if you were reading this thread you’d already know. The Board exists to make *policy* around investment strategy involving the state funds. This Board is not making day to day investment decisions. The twice a year is a minimum frequency and I don’t know how often they actually meet. If they need more meetings they need more meetings, but if you need to revise policy frequently, then you aren’t doing a good job at it.
Thanks, Puck. At least we are all clear on the law and who has control over the pension funds.
“Is money managed by the cash board ever pulled into the pension fund for contributions or to make up shortfalls?”
I don’t know but I think it would be big news if it was.
Chip has zero to do with pensions. The Office of Pensions (Department of Finance) manages pensions, the funds for pensions come from the $7 billion pension fund which is getting a 24% rate of return and has an investment board that meets 15-20 times a year, not every six months. Yesterday Chip suggested his board meet monthly. That sounds good to me–and many other states.
There is no need to consult the audio; just read a few posts up in this thread. That is where the pension talk began. As your research showed Chip has not said a word about pensions.
Chip stated on Mascitti’s show his goal is improving from a 1% return to 3-4%. Maybe 3% is living too far on the edge, but let’s have that debate when Chip releases his investment policy changes proposal. I know Pennsylvania’s treasurer gets 14% and no one there is complaining.
A final point is Chip can’t unilaterally take your money to Dover Downs even if he wanted to. He has to operate within the guidelines established by the Board, whose composition puck has pointed out.
This thread quickly died when the facts showed up and the opportunities for outright distortions on things like pensions were killed.
“the opportunities for outright distortions on things like pensions were killed.”
Don’t worry; we’ll be hearing that one again.
Well, yeah, if you start talking about the actual work of the treasurer’s office, it’s pretty boring stuff.
But can we not pretend that calling the governor Nixonian isn’t exactly nose-to-the-grindstone behavior? Can we not pretend that people don’t slow down to gawk at traffic accidents?
Geezer, what was Flowers responding to when he made the Nixon smear comment? I’d like to know. It’s really not in context.
The charge that Flowers is putting pensions at risk is a smear and a dirty trick. Even our smartest political bloggers are repeating it, even after being spoon-fed the facts. It is almost as though the smear had some juice behind it.
Really, Puck? You really think context is going to help out there? I think you must be too young to remember Nixon.
In the interview, Chip said he was talking about the fact that MArkell had his aides smear him while MArkell kept his own hands clean. He explained that then Nixon would come to the person being smeared and claim not to know who was doing it.
He also kept saying that the governor’s office “leaked” this material. No it didn’t. It flat-out released it, with their names attached. Smear, yes. Dirty trick, no.
I realize all this sounds like breaches of court manners at Versailles, but you don’t have to read all that much history to know that this should-be-meaningless stuff matters.
Criminy, look at what’s happening in Sussex if you need more evidence.
Juice behind the pension smear? I don’t know but there was an agenda behind it because the contributor duo pushed it out of nowhere and continued with the smear, even on the radio, despite knowing the smear was false. Now that is a Nixon tactic!
“there was an agenda behind it”
The paranoia in this claim — one made by quite a few of those I consider astroturfers on this thread — is a lot more Nixonian than anything else in this incident.
I realize that the Chippettes don’t like hearing it, but he really is as insignificant as a gnat on an elephant’s ass. The Chippettes are the ones with an agenda here — accusing everyone who thinks Chip is a jerk of racism, claiming that someone must be making some money off this, etc.
The “agenda” of those of us who pointed out from the first that Flowers was going to cause a mess with his plans is no more sophisticated than “I told you so.” Hence the title of the initial post. Beyond that, my agenda was to point out that the Flowers support was manufactured, and that Chip Flowers lacks the temperament for high elective office.
Everyone knows who I am, and everyone knows who El Som is. El Som made a mistake. Chip corrected it himself in his interview. Believe it or not, it’s possible to think Chip Flowers is all the negative things people have said without being told to think that by Jack Markell.
You, on the other hand, have no excuse. You’re just an astroturfing blogger with no reason to stay anonymous other than playing the Flowers game.
“A final point is Chip can’t unilaterally take your money to Dover Downs even if he wanted to. He has to operate within the guidelines established by the Board, whose composition puck has pointed out.”
Yes, exactly. He’s currently one of eight people, and he’s gotten no traction trying to get support from others on the board. Since you’re so obtuse, let’s reiterate — my interest in the issue is that he stepped on important toes in a way that, IMO, takes him further from that goal. We’ll see if I’m right or wrong.
Pensions were brought into this by the TNJ article, which mentioned them in the context of explanations from Markell’s people why riskier investments are bad.
Nice try. He knew it was false because us “astroturfers” told him. He decided to take the smear to the airwaves anyway. No agenda. How naive.
An agenda can be as simple as disliking an individual. It doesn’t mean there is a puppeteer from above.
“An agenda can be as simple as disliking an individual.”
And you, of course, can tell when someone dislikes the individual you are defending. Nice try yourself, but you’re in no position to do anything but spread what is clearly a smear that you cannot possibly know the veracity of.
Again, the only agenda here is Chip’s, and you’re furthering it. Just more evidence that he’s going to end up a stain on the sidewalk.
I think if this nonsense continues, it would likely to be in Chip’s interest to release the full text of the relevant emails. It sounds like Chip is smart enough to show everyone where the smears are coming from. Notice who made the conversations public first.
Nobody likes a smear artist. And nobody knows that better than Jack Markell, who had a front-row seat for what happened to Janet Rzewnicki. He’ll think twice before tolerating any sidewalk stain-making operation on our Treasurer. Once you start making stains you never know who will end up dirtiest.
Dream on, Puck. Releasing the emails and making this fight even more public than it already is would be the quickest route to oblivion for Chip Flowers.
Chip has already tried that route, with the affidavit from his ex-GF — smearing the other side for releasing it. Hey, worked for Carper, right? Janet R.’s mistake was pretending she had nothing to do with leaking it to the press, and in those internet-free days the News Journal made sure that the actual allegations were ignored. But then, he had what I called “juice,” which exists whether you realize it or not, to keep the lid on it.
Every comment on this is another shovelful of dirt on his political grave. If he were as smart as you and he think he is, he’d learn when to STFU. If he were as smart as you and he think he is, he wouldn’t have failed to cut the mustard at Skadden Arps. Sometimes, Sparky, other people know more than you do. This is one of those times.
What is the smear? Saying that another official is wrong and his plans are risky? That’s politics, you dumbasses. If anything, Chip smeared himself by posing with the expensive and unnecessary Bloomberg terminal.
Fucking lame-ass neophytes with sensitivity issues need to get their asses pounded in the ring a few times before whining about smears. This is rough work, and I’m sorry if your patron is too much of a pussy to take a few fairly mild punches. Get out of the damn kitchen.
“Saying that another official is wrong and his plans are risky? ”
I would rather see that kind of forthrightness instead of the backdoor surrogate-driven stuff we have now.
Flowers’s checking plan was turned down in the appropriate committee, and his other plans are non-starters in all the other appropriate committees.
Isn’t it enough to win on policy anymore, without unleashing the politics of personal destruction as well?