Monday Open Thread [7.23.12]

Filed in Open Thread by Delaware Dem on July 23, 2012

I am fighting off a stomach bug or food poisoning. So I am home slowly recovering and compiling a Polling Report for later this afternoon. So today’s open thread is just going to be a fun video:

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puck says:

July 23, 2012 at 11:47 am

Senator Coons, when voters tell you they want Congress to take action to create jobs, they mean “jobs for Americans.” I just wanted to clear that up, in case you misunderstood.

This week, H.R. 3012 (insultingly named The Fairness to High-Skilled Immigrants Act) moves forward in the Senate and looks likely to pass. The bill removes per-country quotas for employment-based green cards, opening the door for even more foreign nationals to replace American workers and bid down salaries in high-paying jobs.

This bill is extremely unwelcome, especially at a time when American’s real wages are declining, and the President is running for reelection against the “Outsourcer in Chief.” Obama himself is likely to sign the bill, based on his apparent lack of understanding of the situation.

Shamefully, the bill is likely to be supported by Senator Coons, who included its provisions in his AGREE Act co-sponsored with Senator Rubio (it figures). Carper and Carney can’t be far behind.

Senators like Coons and Rubio have been bamboozled by lobbyists working for outsourcers like Mitt Romney.

Let me be clear Senator Coons – despite what the lobbyists tell you, there is no shortage of American high skilled tech workers. We are in a time of jobless recovery and wage stagnation, so this is not the time to pick nits about one sector or another needing to import foreign labor.

I hope that in recent months you have begun to hear the facts about outsourcing, offshoring, and worker replacement by people like Mitt Romney who seek to displace American workers to the detriment of the nation. Please tell us you have changed your mind on this crazy bill attacking American jobs.

As one blogger asked:

Does any DKOS member know a single Democratic senator who will advocate for the U.S. workforce by adding U.S. workforce protection amendments to this Senate bill HR3012? Something as basic as requiring all corporations to first seek equally qualified U.S. talent before recruiting abroad. Most people already believe this is the law…
puck says:

July 23, 2012 at 12:11 pm

FYI, Carney already voted for this turd, which is not only an attack on American jobs, it is an attack on our BEST jobs.
puck says:

July 23, 2012 at 12:52 pm

You can’t make this up:

“You Olympians, however, know you didn’t get here solely on your own power,” said Romney, who on Friday will attend the Opening Ceremonies of this year’s Summer Olympics. “For most of you, loving parents, sisters or brothers, encouraged your hopes, coaches guided, communities built venues in order to organize competitions. All Olympians stand on the shoulders of those who lifted them. We’ve already cheered the Olympians, let’s also cheer the parents, coaches, and communities. All right! [pumps fist].”
V says:

July 23, 2012 at 12:53 pm

i survived firefly! it was wet, dirty, and AWESOME.
naresh says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:11 pm

H.R 3012 does not increase overall immigration numbers and actually has some amendments to reduce H1B Fraud. Get your facts right.
anonymous says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:12 pm

this bill doesn’t increase number of green cards issued. it just restores firt come first serve policy applicable almost everywhere else. if you are an american it shouldn’t matter to you who gets a green card if someone had to get one.
this bill is a welcome step towards restoring fairness in the system.
BullFighter says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:20 pm

HR3012 will greatly increase the number of low level tech workers from foreign countries getting green cards, which will adversely affect the labor market for American tech workers. Please contact your senators and ask them to put this turkey on ice. It’s the last thing we need with such high unemployment. The caps were put in place to protect the labor market in America, and we need protection more than ever.
raj says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:23 pm

This country is based on fairness to all . This country is based on no descrimination based on anything.Like everything Green card should also be given on the based on first come first serve basis not based on where you are born at.Nobody should be allowed to brake the line and jump infront of everyone. So This bill is highly welcomed.
BullFighter says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:30 pm

Hey Raj, nobody cares about your selfish view of fairness. Immigration law needs to protect American workers period. There is no discrimination in the current system as every nation is treated exactly the same way. Every developed nation has limitations on the number of immigrants that can come in from one country, and U.S. law is no different. Get over it.
The supporters of this bill are huge tech conglomerates that want to bring in cheaper labor from foreign countries to fatten the bottom line. They DON’T CARE if American workers lose their job because of it.
Sadashiv says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:30 pm

The article is grossly inaccurate. HR3012 does not add even one more green card. It just changes the allotment process so that a just and fair FIFO system is achieved.
Elizebeth Harvery says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:31 pm

I support the H R 3012 BILL BECAUSE we need high skilled people like them in companies. Support H R 3012 and Keep America Great and Help Economy as they would help us do it.
puck says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:36 pm

naresh, your distinction that the total number of green cards stays the same does not mean what you want it to mean, and is not relevant, and probably not even correct.

The legislation is targeted at E2/E3 visas, which by definition are for highly skilled employees.

So what you really mean is that the total of the quotas will not be increased. Which does not mean the number of green cards issued will stay the same.

Countries that have a lot of highly skilled workers would be able to essentially take over unfilled quota slots of countries whose green card quotas go unfilled, so yes, the total number of E2/E3 greenn cards would likely increase. This allows more E2/E3 workers to displace American skilled workers. Which is why the outsourcing lobby fought so hard for this bill.

The fact is, the bill will expand displacement of American workers and bid down their wages at a time of wage stagnation and unemployment. Which, if you are an American worker, is quite unwelcome.

Senators Coons and Carper, our president is fighting a battle against unreasonable outsourcing. So please support our President and help point out to him that this bill will replace American workers with overseas workers brought in from outsourcing firms. Ignore the lobbyists from the outsourcing industry; they don’t have America’s interest at heart.
Man says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:38 pm

@puck

You said this bill removes per country caps for employment based green cards , opening the door for even more foreign nationals to replace American workers is a blatant lie.

I will give you benefit of doubt and I assume that you have no idea what is this Bill is about.

1) this bill will not increase even one additional green card.
2) this bill will eliminate discrimination while allocating green cards based on country of birth.
3) this bill enforces USCIS to follow FIFO while allocating Employment green cards.
Martin Paul says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:41 pm

H.R.3012 takes out country cap that is all. This bill will never ever increase even one more Immigrant to this great country.

Legal Immigrants promote the economy of United States. We buy houses; spend money on cars; restaurants; Small Business; Buy small business; work hard based on our EDUCATION. Support this BILL. Fairness should be DONE.This bill is all about Fairness. no doubt. I am here since 10 years paying my taxes and dues. still waiting for green card. Where as the lottery system giving away 65000 visas a year. And none of em paid even a single dollar in past 10 years.

I support this bill because this is designed for real Legal immigrants.

A lot of hard working immigrants are not only helping the local economies, but are also helping corporates compete in the new economy. It’s only fair to give them a chance to get a green card in some real reasonable time frame. We are not realizing that today the US’s main strength is in services and technology. And we are already loosing out to other nations with more favorable immigration policies – like Australia, Canada, Singapore, Malaysia. If we continue with the the current policies the ‘brain drain’ will only escalate and will hurt us more in the long run. Support this bill to be fair and to protect intellect. We need it.
BullFighter says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:42 pm

@man

Here is the truth. HR3012 will greatly increase the number of foreign tech workers getting permanent resident status. This is an undeniable fact. This will put American tech workers out of work, this is also an undeniable fact. Why else would the tech industry pour millions into lobbying for this bill if there was no payback?
puck says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:43 pm

I oppose H.R. 3012 because we need to help fix our economy by filling those jobs with our highly skilled Americans.
Martin Paul says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:44 pm

This bill H.R.3012 is meant for people who are already here in high tech or medical research jobs possibly more than a decade & their green card cases are sitting PRE APPROVED but can’t be adjudicated due to lack of visa numbers.

Secondly such people enter in this country using H1b visas not green cards directly & there are no country limits on H1b visas.

Thirdly why should one country have a preference over the other? If Europeons & Africans don’t want to come here or don’t have skills, why should Indians & Chinese get green cards after their death?

As far as diversity is concerned, this is all about merit or first come first served. Who is stopping people from other countries to come here if they are skilled. Get in the same line. Fact is no one else produces enough engineers & doctors to spare a few for US.

Each skilled worker that is going to make US a permanent home invests in the US economy (Buys a home, invests capital in secondary and primary markets, many start companies that add US workers and even if they don’t, just buying a home means creating construction jobs in the US). The US is getting well educated workers in areas where there is excessive demand without having to have invested a penny in them from birth. The aging population is getting a free funding source for social security and retirement.

Support this bill if not for anything else but for your country – the USA
Dave says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:46 pm

Employment based immigration system is for the people with skills and there should not be any provisions for quota system. H.R.3012 brings fairness into the current system.
BullFighter says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:48 pm

@ Martin Paul,

If HR3012 doesn’t increase the number of people getting green cards, how will it boost the economy? You are contradicting yourself. Do only tech immigrants buy homes or invest in the community? The truth is HR3012 changes the mix, not the number of immigrants, meaning it is zero sum, with a massive increase in tech workers and an equal massive decrease in all other types of immigrants workers. This is a push by tech companies to get more labor, while the rest of the economy be damned.
It’s a bald faced lie to say this will boost the economy. Please be honest.
Anum says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:49 pm

Puck, BullFighter.
If you really think high skilled foreign workers are taking up american jobs, why don’t america throw out all the high skilled foreign workers? No foreign workers, no fight for green cards, no fight for HR3012. Isn’t that simple?
Ken says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:50 pm

I agree we need to fix our economy and create jobs,
But why should we care which one gets green card first?
As long as number of green cards issued won’t change let them go with HR3012 as there should not be any discrimination in job market by race, ethnicity, place of birth.

If there is a bill to eliminate or reduce or increase green cards that will surely concerns me and affects the job market, this is merely which foriener gets the card, how does this makes any difference in current job market?
If someone is waiting for 10 years in line let them get first rather than the one who is waiting 5 years.
Ken says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:53 pm

@anum

Yes there should not be any green card program but if there is one , then no place for discrimination.
You apply first you get first, you apply second you get second.
puck says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:55 pm

“why don’t america throw out all the high skilled foreign workers? No foreign workers, no fight for green cards, no fight for HR3012. Isn’t that simple?”

Easy – because the powerful outsourcing industries profit immensely from having them here, at the expense of American workers.

I don’t advocate a mass expulsion, but a gradual and prolonged tightening would be fine with me. Plus a few audits and high-profile prosecutions of employers who rejected qualified Americans.

Now it’s your turn to answer questions – Why should America be importing workers until wages and unemployment reverts to historic norms?
BullFighter says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:56 pm

Anum,

The mix of immigrants is extremely important. Too many in one field will upset the labor market. That’s why the caps were brought in in the first place, because too many nurses from the Philippines were immigrating, which was leading to job loss and downward wage pressure among Americans nurses.

Please call your senators and ask them to fix the immigration system for the benefit of all, not bow to lobbyists with a narrow agenda that hurts Americans. No to HR3012.
VJ says:

July 23, 2012 at 4:56 pm

BullFighter

Do you think people from ROW who are in E3 category are scholars or intllectuals or highly intelligent ppl. If so take a break.

Even if this bill did not become law The GCs are always going to be issued. Based on old or present system. And those ROW EB3 people who got their GC do you think they stay here Idle without working?.
Are not they going to do jobs for their living?. They also takes job which supposed to be, some american supposed to take that job. For an american born cititzen it does matter. Ultimately it gives
hard time to american nationals.

I would say only beneficial to american workers is STOP for all other country people to migrate USA. Let US government make use of ppl who born here in USA stop all immigrants.

Then all americans have enough number of jobs and salary.

Do you think Would it be possible?
🙂
Anum says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:00 pm

“Why should America be importing workers until unemployment reverts to historic norms?”
Good questions. You have to ask yourself. Do you think there is unemployment in high skilled american workers?
Joe Average says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:03 pm

@puck

why do you think HR3012 will move this week? The bill is still on hold by at least two senators. The only way it can move is if the holds are removed or if Reid invokes cloture. What am I missing here?
Steeve Coon says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:09 pm

Real discrimination will be during the first 3 years when 90% of green cards will be given to India and China. Other applicants (from other 165 countries) will be put aside to wait. Later after 3 years, all tech jobs will be taken by Indian immigrants because 50% of Employment Immigration applicants are from this country. Of course most of the managers in Tech companies will be Indians. They will start hiring the people alike – from their country. After that, forget about Americans getting a job in such companies. HR 3012 is really detrimental for everybody in US. How can Congress even review such bill.
techWorker says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:14 pm

Number of Employment based green cards issued currently: 140, 000 per year.

Number of Employment based green cards which will be issued if HR 3012 is passed: 140, 000 per year.

Number of additional Employment based green cards that will be issued due to HR 3012: 0 per year.
Ken says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:14 pm

@bullfighter,

If an American worker replaced by a Chinese or a Kenyan, or south African is immaterial , what matters is jobs for Americans, American worker not suppose to be replaced at all at the cost of a foreigner .

We do not need diversity in jobs in terms of nationality, we need Americans to have American jobs first.
BullFighter says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:22 pm

@ techworker,

Number of green cards going to tech workers each year if HR3012 doesn’t pass:
approximately 25,000

Number of green cards going to tech workers each year if HR3012 passes:
approximately 100,000+.

American tech workers should be VERY afraid of HR3012. Don’t be baffled by the male cattle droppings you are hearing from those who would benefit, there is a reason why the tech industry LOVES this bill and have poured millions into it trying to buy off congress to get it passed.

Good luck getting Americans to study STEM fields if HR3012 passes. What would be the point? The industry will be a wasteland for American workers, especially once they turn 35.
xstryker says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:24 pm

I’m all for creating jobs for American citizens, but country quotas are bullshit and racist. They need to go.
Martin Paul says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:25 pm

@BullFighter,

Please don’t show Your ignorance here. Read the bill properly before you write The truth is this. tech workers visa is not recaptured or increased

Number of Employment based green cards issued currently: 140, 000 per year.

Number of Employment based green cards which will be issued if HR 3012 is passed: 140, 000 per year.

Number of additional Employment based green cards that will be issued due to HR 3012: 0 per year.
BullFighter says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:30 pm

@Martin Paul.

Nice try. 80% of PERM filings from India are in the tech field, compared to 30% for all other countries.

Please be honest and don’t try to mislead.
Manu says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:32 pm

To all the people who dont have the facts straight about HR 3012. NO NEW green cards issued, they just make it FIFO. Also consider that people who are waiting for a green card have a approved labor certification from USCIS. What does this mean? There were no American workers in the job pool that met the skills possessed by the applicant. So how are the applicants stealing jobs when there is no one to fill the need? If you have an issue with this, then you are fighting your own system. Now who asked for this applicant? One of the companies that run the US economy. Every one in the Green card pool is a tax paying, law abiding citizen who just has the necessary skills for the job. If you have the skills, interview for the position and take the job. No one here is coming into the green card pool begging for a job or asking favors. We are in the green card pool on our merit, certified by the USCIS and supplying the demand for a workforce.
BullFighter says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:35 pm

xstryker,

On the contrary, country caps treat all countries the same. If HR3012 passes, diversity from EB immigration will almost disappear, as likely more than 80% of all green cards will go to natives of only 2 countries, and 50 to 60% going to natives of a single country.
BullFighter says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:37 pm

@manu,

Labor certification is a joke. No one believe it protects American workers. The whole system needs an overhaul. The current system doesn’t work.
puck says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:41 pm

NO NEW green cards issued

They likely will be once the worker-providing countries acquire more slots. I’m pretty sure some countries have unfilled slots, which will be filled by the countries who are currently capped. If I’m wrong about that, post a link.

There were no American workers in the job pool

You crack me up.

So how are the applicants stealing jobs

Nobody said applicants are stealing jobs. More power to them for wanting to advance their careers. It’s the high-tech companies that are successfully lobbying against America.

If you have an issue with this, then you are fighting your own system.

Now you are catching on.
Ken says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:44 pm

@ bullfighter

The cap for EB green cads will be 140000 even after Hr3012.
Kish says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:46 pm

This article is totally untrue. HR3012 does not increase the green cards. It allocates the green cards on first come first served basis. Read the bill directly from here http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.3012:
FighterBull says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:47 pm

@BullFighter
If you believe Labor certification is a joke, why doesn’t the government fix it ? Also, it will be helpful here if you can publish data that supports 100,000+. GC incase HR3012 passes
BullFighter says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:47 pm

You all are like broken records, even when presented with contrary evidence.
puck says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:47 pm

xstryker, I don’t find country caps racist, just a reality of foreign trade. Countries tend to be good at different things.

That said, I’d be happy to eliminate the country quotas as long as the total is drastically reduced, so US firms don’t take advantage by grabbing the unused former slots from other countries to expand their displacement of US workers.
Man says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:50 pm

@puck
It shows your ignorance in how the EB green card allocation works today, if there is unfilled quota in any country that will be allocated to over subscribed countries any way so there iwill be no un used visas.

Today number of green cards 140000 after HR3012 the number remains same.
Mike says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:57 pm

BullFighter, you are talking BullXXXt.
And Puck, you are really Pucking.
You need to get your fundamentals straight. Only way to keep American tech workers their jobs is remove all foreigners from america. Why not throw them out in bulk? Why do it in phases? Doesnt that discriminate newly entered high tech, good guy? Or u r also a foreigner and waiting in line?
whatisthis says:

July 23, 2012 at 5:58 pm

Currently, Employment based green card beneficiaries from countries like Pakistan, Iran and North Korea get their green cards in 2-3 years. While same or better skilled folks from India and China get theirs in 10-15 years. This is not fair, this is not American.

In the America I know, everyone stands in one line. We don’t have special seating place for certain people in a bus, we don’t have that in a collage, we don’t have that in a office. This is what HR 3012 is trying to correct – it is leveling the playing field for all countries.

HR 3012 is fair. HR 3012 is for fairness. Vote yes to HR 3012!
Ken says:

July 23, 2012 at 6:05 pm

@mike

Exactly my point, only way to keep American jobs to Americans is abolish h1 visas and green cards to foreigners.

For American every one is same either the guy is from Pakistan or china , if you apply first you get it first.
Roland D. LeBay says:

July 23, 2012 at 6:14 pm

Wow…Did someone post a link to this posting on another blog, or have all these noobs been lurking here for awhile & decided to post today?

I count 21 newbie posters & only 3 familiar names (xstryker, puck & V)

@whatisthis–

Fuck off. Level the playing field for Mexicans and Central Americans, then talk to me about India & Pakistan. We have plenty of skilled Americans to fill the tech jobs that Indians & Pakistanis steal from American tech workers.
Vik says:

July 23, 2012 at 6:18 pm

@Ken,
Exactly. But this bill is not intended to do that. It intends to rectify a long standing discrimination, unfairly tied to your country of birth, as @whatisthis mentioned.

Abolishing H1B is a totally different topic. We are comparing apples to goats.
Sen says:

July 23, 2012 at 6:23 pm

@Ronald
This is the best you got?
Name calling?

Is it ok if some one other than Pakistani or Indian steal American job?
I don’t think it is American way to discriminate people based on national origin and stereotyping.
If you are concerned in protecting American jobs then work against green cards to foreigners , no matter what country they belong to.
puck says:

July 23, 2012 at 6:29 pm

Actually I have been reading the bill, plus the rules for allocating EB-3 visas. It’s more complicated than can be quickly described here. Currently, there are unfilled EB-3 visas on a regular basis, which then are allocated to more general visa categories. But with first come, first served, there won’t be any more unfilled EB-3’s. Plus there is some adjustment to Chinese work permits I didn’t figure out yet.
bull_keep_fighting says:

July 23, 2012 at 6:38 pm

Guys, don’t need to convince anything to those who have been brainwashed. Wait for the bill to proceed and keep your fingers crossed.
Let peace, love, and equality prevail in this great nation!
Ken says:

July 23, 2012 at 6:38 pm

@puck
Yes if there are any unused visas in eb3 general they will be spilled over to over subscribed countries, even with first come first basis visa distribution might change , but visa numbers will be unchanged. Glad you understood.

Also FIFo make sense, as why would you give visa for some one entered system much later when other is being waited for years ahead.
Martin Paul says:

July 23, 2012 at 6:49 pm

Most of the people here are from Rest of the World quota or Democrats blindly blabbering about republican bill. How about The President gave amnesty for so called young Illegals? what you are doing for that? ask Your President, just for vote and a second term he is making Illegals as Legals huh.. while Legal educated, economically contributing Legal Immigrant suffers? @ Bullfighther, @Puke do you have the back bone or guts to ask this to your dear President… now don’t give any excuse. H.R.3012 is Fairness and it makes Immigration Legal immigration Fair.
Roland D. LeBay says:

July 23, 2012 at 6:50 pm

@Sen–If you’re offended by the name “noob”, you must be new to the internet.

The best I’ve got is this:

Our government should not be in the business of undermining the pay or eliminating the jobs of American workers by granting resident status to foreigners. Is that clear enough?
puck says:

July 23, 2012 at 6:52 pm

I think it must be closing time at the local body shops. They have to go home and have dinner now before the other side of the world wakes up and they have to check their messages 🙂
Roland D. LeBay says:

July 23, 2012 at 6:58 pm

@Martin Paul–

Please explain this sentence:

Most of the people here are from Rest of the World quota or Democrats blindly blabbering about republican bill.

Most of the people where? In this thread? In the USA? In Delaware?

I’m not a Democrat nor am I a Republican. WTF are you trying to say?
Aoine says:

July 23, 2012 at 7:02 pm

@puck – I find it startling that you are NOW just ready the Bill!!

Really?? after all the go a rounds we have had about it already – NOW you read it?

Visa Quotas based on nations was wrong from the jump -unfair and discriminatory – the first post you have mentioned Employment -based Green cards – such a thing does not even exist.

as VISA can be employment based – a Green Card NEVER!!

while an employment based visa MAY lead one to a green card, it also may not. SO right from the jump you mislead, either by oversight or design I do not know, but you are wrong!
you also talk about OUTSOURCING – this is not outsourcing, the jobs are HERE in the US and bringing folks here to work actually preserves the pay – outsourcing to countries without a min wage of employee rights makes things worse for all workers. T

The folks that come here pay taxes, buy commodities, support Medicare, from which they will never collect – they fuel the economic engine and not all will stay either – most come with a vision to leave – return to their families and build lives in their own countries, start businesses there- expand their future
you talk as if they are an invading army of something – thrust me they don’t think living here is all that – and they are not dumb either – they know the laws in this country and they know their rights – even Undoc field workers go to those farms that pay more and treat the worker better – why would they not? it’s the reasonable thing to do, improve one’s lot in life.
They may also join unions, giving strength to the union as a whole -I see it as an opportunity for the workers, American and Foreign.

Actually some in here sound like the old nativists and know-nothings, from back in the Day – its not a pretty sight
we tried to exclude the Chinese, Irish, Germans, Italians, what have you but in the end they are all part of what made us great.
And if fear is your issue – put it aside

I do feel that jobs should be open to American Workers and American workers protected, but if the employer can show that an American cannot be hired to fill it, hire the foreign worker

I support HB3012 – always have – and will continue to do so.
Roland D. LeBay says:

July 23, 2012 at 7:10 pm

this is not outsourcing, the jobs are HERE in the US and bringing folks here to work actually preserves the pay…

It’s not “outsourcing”, but it has the same effect. It puts Americans in the unemployment line and it drives down wages for all. Ask any IT professional who has seen his work subcontracted to an Indian or Pakistani or Chinese person.
Aoine says:

July 23, 2012 at 7:18 pm

you must have missed this line:

I do feel that jobs should be open to American Workers and American workers protected, but if the employer can show that an American cannot be hired to fill it, hire the foreign worker

there – now, make sure the companies abide by this- if not report them

peace out!
puck says:

July 23, 2012 at 7:21 pm

“@puck – I find it startling that you are NOW just ready the Bill!!”

What makes you think I just read it today?

Critical thinking, dear. Don’t hurt yourself jumping to conclusions.

Remember, we are talking about EB-2 visas – highly skilled scientists, engineers, and IT experts, who have work options around the world and are not exactly fleeing economic misery. Thanks for bringing up your usual arguments about general immigration (legal or not), but they hardly apply to this market.

You are right about my misuse of terminology… green cards are not at issue here. I was careless with the terminology, mostly falling in with our new guests and to other news accounts and blogs I have been reading who have been using the terms green card, permit, visa etc interchangably. Just sloppy on my part; I know there is a distinction. Sorry for the lack of precision, but it hardly affects my point.
puck says:

July 23, 2012 at 7:27 pm

“this is not outsourcing, the jobs are HERE in the US ”

When the employee works for a consulting firm that then supplies the employee to the company where the work is actually being done (which is typical), that is the very definition of outsourcing, regardless of where the jobs are. That way the actual employer avoids assuming most of the downside risk for any violations with immigration, IRS, etc.
Roland D. LeBay says:

July 23, 2012 at 8:04 pm

I do feel that jobs should be open to American Workers and American workers protected, but if the employer can show that an American cannot be hired to fill it, hire the foreign worker.

That’s great, assuming their would be some standard that an employer would have to meet in order to show that their is a REAL shortage of American workers for a given job.

That simply doesn’t happen right now. There is no shortage of American workers in the tech sector. Said workers simply want to be paid a fair wage for the jobs they do. Tech companies want to maximize profits, therefore they claim there’s a “worker shortage” & lobby for foreign workers, who typically work (as contractors) at a lower hourly rate with no benefits.
Ken says:

July 23, 2012 at 8:27 pm

Comment by Roland D. LeBay
I do feel that jobs should be open to American Workers and American workers protected, but if the employer can show that an American cannot be hired to fill it, hire the foreign worker.

Exactly for this reason you should support Hr3012, it is first step towards American worker protection, senator chuck grassely amendments to HR3012 will give DOL unprecedented powers to protect American worker from foriegners, it is really doesn’t matter which foreigner gets the green card first.

Hr3012 reduces the visa fraud and also eliminates discrimination based on nationality.
Both are welcoming changes to America.
cassandra_m says:

July 23, 2012 at 8:30 pm

This is a great discussion, but since we have a number of newcomers to this blog commenting here — you should know that we frown upon sockpuppetry here. So the individual posting as Man, Sen and Ken needs to pick one name and stick with it.

Carry on.
Aoine says:

July 23, 2012 at 9:04 pm

and on a lighter (whiter) note – we have this:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/07/23/author-of-sb1070-papers-please-law-exposed-as-hardcore-racist/

carry on – no surprises here
sum guy says:

July 23, 2012 at 9:59 pm

i think rollin’ on the bay put it best a few hours ago: lots of DL readers entered the fray for the first time on this topic. guess a lot of tech guys read this blog. hidden demographic for DL?
Roland D. LeBay says:

July 23, 2012 at 10:54 pm

@Ken/Sen/Man/whatever you choose to call yourself–

I do feel that jobs should be open to American Workers and American workers protected, but if the employer can show that an American cannot be hired to fill it, hire the foreign worker.

I’m fine w/ that, so long as the employer meets a very strict test of proof re: no Americans willing to do the job.

If there’s an American worker who will do the job with competence at an exorbitant rate of pay, the company must hire that worker before any foreign workers are considered for the position. That would put the kibosh on the phony ass immigrant “contractors” and “consultants” who are now working IT jobs at 50-70% of the average IT wage.
Roland D. LeBay says:

July 23, 2012 at 10:56 pm

@Aoine–

The only surprise I found in your link was the fact that the author spelled Vicente Fox’s name incorrectly. There’s only one “n” in Vicente!
Deni says:

July 23, 2012 at 11:02 pm

H.R 3012 is an excellent bill that make USA Policy the best. Process applications in order it was received and no discrimination based on national origin. Sen. Grassley amendment to this gives more power to DOL and to audit employers who use H1B and also ensures American citizens are protected as well. It is just a simple, but very fair legislature that should be passed.
Aoine says:

July 23, 2012 at 11:07 pm

they also spelled the Mayor of LA’s name wrong as well – but they were quoting Pearce’s emails….

its spelled – Villaraigosa

but then again. I dont think Russell Pearce cares much about how to spell it right……..
Ganesh says:

July 24, 2012 at 12:09 am

Grassley had removed his hold on H.R. 3012 but there is a rumor that still 2 more holds on this bill. How do you confirm that this bill is coming for vote in Senate floor this week? It is not even schedule in Senate calendar. Can you please verify on this?
Liberal Elite says:

July 24, 2012 at 12:38 am

@RBD “If there’s an American worker who will do the job with competence at an exorbitant rate of pay, the company must hire that worker before any foreign workers are considered for the position. That would put the kibosh on the phony ass immigrant “contractors” and “consultants” who are now working IT jobs at 50-70% of the average IT wage.”

This is basically what I do. I hire mostly foreigners to do high quality high tech work. I often pay them about 50-70% of what an American doing the job would expect to get. But I hire the very very best regardless of country of origin. It is my pathway to excellence. I really could not do the job I do without hiring the best.

Within the last 5 years, I have had people from the following countries work directly for me: China, South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Austria, Turkey, Serbia, Romania, Canada, Ghana, India, Slovenia, (and maybe one or two more). All have been very highly educated. These people have some here to help us, and they have in a very real way.

If I (and people like me) were forced to live with only available Americans as workers, America would suffer. America would suffer in very concrete ways that you would not like.

In America, our A-team, the best and brightest students often become doctors and lawyers. These are service industry jobs. Amazingly, our A-team heads into SERVICE INDUSTRY jobs!! But you can’t build a great nation on the service industry, and you can’t do it with the B-team. Until America wises up and starts sending their A-team into IT, Engineering, and Science, we will need well educated foreigners… or we can kiss our present standing in the world goodbye.

Be careful what you wish for!!
puck says:

July 24, 2012 at 7:58 am

Liberal Elite offers his full confession 🙂

This is basically what I do. I hire mostly foreigners to do high quality high tech work. I often pay them about 50-70% of what an American doing the job would expect to get. But I hire the very very best regardless of country of origin. It is my pathway to excellence. I really could not do the job I do without hiring the best.

Are you sure paying them 50-70% doesn’t factor into your (or your customers’) definition of quality? That’s a lot of money, so it would be tough to be objective about it.

If I (and people like me) were forced to live with only available Americans as workers, America would suffer. America would suffer in very concrete ways that you would not like.

This is probably true if you mean an absolute ban on all foreign workers. But that’s not what we are talking about here. In the context of the mid to upper level engineering/tech market, this is a stubborn rationalization and is not correct.

In America, our A-team, the best and brightest students often become doctors and lawyers. These are service industry jobs. Amazingly, our A-team heads into SERVICE INDUSTRY jobs!!

You mean they prefer not to enter a market where careers are short due to age discrimination, and salaries are bid down by recruiters scouring the globe for people to replace them at 50-70% of their pay? Yes, I guess they are pretty smart.

Also, doctors and lawyers have UNIONS and have erected certification barriers, resulting in minimal competition with foreign nationals. Unlike IT and engineering, which requires only a resume and pocketful of promises.
BullFighter says:

July 24, 2012 at 10:19 am

@puck
“Also, doctors and lawyers have UNIONS and have erected certification barriers, resulting in minimal competition with foreign nationals. Unlike IT and engineering, which requires only a resume and pocketful of promises.”

Nailed it.

@liberal elite

Well you get credit for honestly at least. I spoke to someone who has a PhD in Math from Princeton. His grandson had nearly perfect SAT scores. I asked him what his grandson intended to do. He said he planned to go into the financial industry (banker/stock broker etc.). This is so typical. The best and brightest in this country rarely go into the tech industry, and why would they when the job marketplace is crowded with H-1 workers who will work, in your estimation, at 50-70% of the real market value? HR3012 would be another nail in the coffin for American tech workers.

Everyone needs to fax/email/write their senators and ask them to oppose HR3012. Now is a very critical time for this bill in the senate and we need to stop it before it is too late!!
puck says:

July 24, 2012 at 10:36 am

I know Grassley removed his hold on the bill, and I don’t know of any other holds. That said, I don’t know if the bill is going to be worked or not. The Senate has a lot of other priorities right now. If it is worked though, the way you will find out is that you will wake up one morning soon and read that it has passed.
cassandra m says:

July 24, 2012 at 10:37 am

Does anyone know of any good (as in, not funded by industry) studies of the shortage of American tech workers?
puck says:

July 24, 2012 at 10:43 am

That’s a tough request, Cassandra. We don’t even all agree on a definition of tech workers. And the market changes pretty frequently.

Probably the best measure would be pay levels. In a real shortage, pay goes up. But then you’d have to find a report that includes regular employees, contractors, temp and perm.
SS says:

July 24, 2012 at 11:03 am

HR3012 reduces exploitation of immigrant techies that already live and work in the US. The stupid quota system (7% per country) was not introduced to protect American workers, it was added to for the so called diversity. There is already a diversity visa program for that purpose. The total number of immigrant visas in the US stays unchanged and this bill does not impact that numebr at all. All this noise about outsourcing has nothing to do with this bill. If anybody is interested in opposing outsourcing, they should talk about H1B program, not this bill. And, by the way, this law does include additional auditing for H1B employers after the Grassley amendment. Companies that ship jobs oversees do not process Green cards for their employees and HR 3012 has nothing to do with it. Dont spread rumors. Get the facts right. Support HR3012.
puck says:

July 24, 2012 at 11:10 am

Why would we allow them to work here if not to exploit them? Problem is, exploiting them downgrades the jobs for everyone.

I don’t care if the total number of visas stays the same. The point is that the employment visa programs will now be even more intensely focused on displacing workers from some of our best American jobs.

Yes, I acknowledged that myself and many others misspoke about green cards. That doesn’t change my point. Green cards are not the issue; displacement of American workers is.
cassandra m says:

July 24, 2012 at 11:10 am

I’d bet that the study itself isn’t that hard — especially since the people advocating for the visas are pretty specific in the kind of science and engineering degrees they say they want. And this claimed lack of Americans with these degrees has been pretty long-standing. You’d think that there might be something other than businessmen wringing their hands that might demonstrate the need.

From where I sit, the best and brightest of Americans with the degrees they say they want are absorbed into the Wall Street Army of quants, and can pick and choose the actual tech firms they want to work for. Whether they go to Google or to Pixar or to the myriad of startups out there — they have actual choices and companies that are working to attract and keep them. HP is letting go 20+K people this year. The boom and bust cycle of the high tech business is well known. But I’d bet that there are people who can do this work — they object to the price and/or they have to ramp up on newer skills/systems/programming.
puck says:

July 24, 2012 at 11:17 am

Just like the bogus nursing shortage a few years back, there is rarely an authentic shortage of labor for a specific industry. There is just a shortage at the price you want to pay. It is the lobbyists who create the illusion of a shortage in order to get policy changes to lock in their lower labor costs.

Right now, tech salaries are apparently ticking up, and businesses do not want to pay market rates. So they are looking to Congress to change the markets in their favor – to import foreign labor and expand supply to suppress salaries.

And by “expand supply” I mean expand supply in the high-paying science/IT/engineering fields, for those of you who keep repeating that the total visas won’t increase.
Steve Newton says:

July 24, 2012 at 11:40 am

@cassandra–About four years ago (which is an eternity in this subject) either Pew or Robert Woods Johnson did something similar to what you are asking. I can’t find the reference online (admittedly only spent two minutes looking) and I have only the most vague memories of what they found or how they defined “tech workers”; I also think there was some element of the student linking it to public education.

I know that’s horribly vague and possibly useless, but it is the only non-industry funded study on the subject I can recall in the past decade. Given my first paragraph, “recall” is probably too strong a word.
puck says:

July 24, 2012 at 11:53 am

The National Science Foundation has what looks to be a pretty thorough report: http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind10/c/cs1.htm (check out Chapter 3 on workforce). I don’t have time to go through it right now.

Also, Norm Matloff from UC Davis has been on this issue since the early 2000’s:

http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/pub/Immigration/Index.html
xstryker says:

July 24, 2012 at 1:22 pm

Limiting the ability of companies to bring Indian tech workers to America only encourages them to hire the same people in India for a far lower salary. Onshoring is considerably better for America than offshoring. IT is not like nursing where you simply need someone with a nursing degree. Every IT job has a different set of required proficiencies, and getting a bachelors degree in computer science – which I have – does not necessarily give you any familiarity with the specific required skills. I didn’t learn anything in college about Data Modelling, Systems Administration, or SAS. And since I graduated over a decade ago, it didn’t cover J2EE or .Net either. I read job openings daily (just in case I see something better than my current job) and believe me, most of them require a dozen different proficiencies.
puck says:

July 24, 2012 at 1:34 pm

“Onshoring is considerably better for America than offshoring. ”

LOL… that’s like saying diabetes is better than cancer.

Hiring Americans is better for America than either offshoring or onshoring.

The Greatest Generation responded to Sputnik and the technology gap by ramping up math and science education and investment at every level. Now the Greediest Generation responds by lobbying for policies to increase imported labor.
Liberal Elite says:

July 24, 2012 at 1:45 pm

@puck “Why would we allow them to work here if not to exploit them? Problem is, exploiting them downgrades the jobs for everyone.”

I don’t see it that way. I see the key problem is keeping America competitive. For every STEM PhD we grant in America, China grants 7 and India grants 5. In other words, within just these 3 countries, we have only 8% of the PhDs granted. When you include the rest of the 1st world, the numbers are daunting. And this is our future. Without a competitive STEM sector, we’re done as a superpower. Really done. Over. Look at England 100 years ago, vs. England today. That’s could be us.

Let me use women’s volleyball as an example.

Imagine that there will be an international match between China and the US. And let’s say that the stakes are very high… Imagine that every resident of each country was required to bet $5,000 on their own national team.

Now, China has some really great tall players… Our best athletes went and played basketball (think doctors, lawyers, wall street), and only the B-team players were available for the US team. China doesn’t have a basketball problem.

So what will happen? That’s easy… China will crush us. And we’d all lose much.

Now lets say that we have the option of recruiting the best players from anywhere in the world to come play for our team… and they want to come. Hey! Now the odds are better.

And let’s also say that we can even get the best Chinese players to cross over and play for us.. Even better. They even want to come and play for us!!

Now who wins?
puck says:

July 24, 2012 at 1:59 pm

Your analogy is still based on the dubious assertion that there aren’t enough qualified American workers for the jobs in question. In my experience very few IT jobs of any kind require PhD’s. I can imagine PhD’s being required for biotech or pharmaceutical, but once you take IT out of the equation, the remaining jobs can mostly be filled by US PhD’s. I understand that US PhD candidates are 50% foreign; not sure if that is accurate, but if so maybe that is another component of the problem – America needs to invest more in educating its citizens.

My unproven assertion is that most of the jobs in question can be done with 100% effectiveness by available qualified US workers, and that there is no legitimate gain to be had by scouring the globe to find the “best of the best.” I am skeptical that the jobs you are placing require the best of the best; only the cheapest.

And you know as well as I do that job descriptions are often written ridiculously narrowly. I suspect this is to target the jobs toward the inventory of the offshoring recruiter.
Liberal Elite says:

July 24, 2012 at 2:04 pm

@puck “Your analogy is still based on the dubious assertion that there aren’t enough qualified American workers for the jobs in question.”

I make no such assertion.

It’s not a question of quantity. It’s a question of quality. Our ability to compete.

This bill just messes with that and for no good reason.

“I suspect this is to target the jobs toward the inventory of the offshoring recruiter.”
I don’t use a recruiter. I travel and select from universities.
puck says:

July 24, 2012 at 2:14 pm

I don’t see how US science and technology will become more competitive by suppressing pay and pushing our best into service industries.
puck says:

July 24, 2012 at 2:20 pm

Or by rejecting qualified Americans, which assures they will never get the experience you are looking for and creates a vicious circle and a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Liberal Elite says:

July 24, 2012 at 2:22 pm

@puck “I am skeptical that the jobs you are placing require the best of the best; only the cheapest.”

Look. I also hire lots of Americans. I currently have about a half-dozen. The Americans are generally less well trained, but have better critical thinking skills, and are generally more creative without being told how to be more creative. These are great assets, but just not enough. I usually team them with foreigners on a given difficult task.
Liberal Elite says:

July 24, 2012 at 2:25 pm

@puck “I don’t see how US science and technology will become more competitive by suppressing pay and pushing our best into service industries.”

I didn’t do that. Our screwed up health care system and our screwed up tort system did that.
xstryker says:

July 24, 2012 at 3:15 pm

IT jobs depend on getting shit done fast. There isn’t much time for on-the-job training, so stringent requirements are needed.
xstryker says:

July 24, 2012 at 3:27 pm

What we really need is to replace BS special interest tax loopholes and subsidies with smaller tax credits focused on hiring, training, and retraining American citizens.
puck says:

July 24, 2012 at 3:32 pm

What we really need is to replace BS special interest tax loopholes and subsidies with smaller tax credits focused on hiring, training, and retraining American citizens.

Filibustered.
Martin Paul says:

July 25, 2012 at 11:51 am

HR3012 has traction and support because its fair and even Congress passed it overwhelmingly until that Odd one man Republican HOLD by Grassley.

Also what is happening currently by limiting visas based on country of Origin , its Apartheid being followed , because Indians and to certain extent Chinese are punished and made to wait longer , based on where they were born , that is discrimination

Discrimination is based on race, color , ethnicity ( where you were born ) , South Africa and other countries which had blatant Apartheid were boycotted by all , so HR3012 is a step in right direction to remove Discrimination based on Country of birth and many folks are waiting way too long and it will be fair if numbers are divided based on merits not where or who you are.

Also Discrimination breeds exploitation , and exploitation and suffering of EB Indians are happening for too long , why would ROW Eb2 or Eb3 get visas in shorter time than EB Indian , just based on Quota system , USA needs brightest and best in various fields , diversity is good when you talk about Family Imm , but when Immigration is based on talent and experience why is diversity important

Lets hope HR3012 passes , so that Discrimination and Exploitation can end.
Liberal Elite says:

July 25, 2012 at 3:57 pm

@MP “but when Immigration is based on talent and experience why is diversity important”

Because talent is diverse. If you want to put together the strongest team, you bring in a diverse team.

We’re doing this to make America stronger. Right?? Not to make some foreigner somewhere happy.
BullFighter says:

July 26, 2012 at 1:42 am

@LE

Diverse team? Not if HR3012 passes. You will have your choice of workers from one single country with perhaps a sprinkling from one other. Americans will avoid the field like the plague. Why do we let our politicians do this to us? We only have ourselves to blame.
Liberal Elite says:

July 26, 2012 at 3:21 am

@BF “Diverse team? Not if HR3012 passes.”

Did you think I wanted it to pass? I should have been more clear. I agree that it would be bad for the US, serving only the profits of a few corporations.
BullFighter says:

July 26, 2012 at 8:57 am

This is so sad for our young people. Through most of northern Europe, the older workers mentor the kids coming out of college. In Germany they call it an apprenticeship and it is a normal part of their culture. Sadly what chance does our next generation have when corporations can short circuit this by bringing in experienced tech workers from overseas (and India and China, who would benefit most from HR3012, have a huge labor pool to draw from, 2.5 billion people in fact), passing our next generation over. This is so short sighted. We are screwing ourselves in the long run.

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