Wednesday Open Thread [11.13.13]
Sarah Palin says she’s disturbed that many of Pope Francis’ pastoral pronouncements have “sounded kind of liberal.” That is only because the new Pope is following Jesus’ example and teachings. Remember Mrs. Palin, Jesus did not hate.
Sarah Palin also says that the federal debt is like slavery. Interesting that she would put it like that, since debt is a prime component of capitalism and our free market economy. Businesses and people use credit and incur debt all the time all over our country to buy homes, to buy inventory for their businesses, to pay their employees, to make improvements to their house, to buy a car, etc. Is she saying that debt in those circumstances is slavery too? She has to be. And I guess that means Sarah Palin opposes capitalism. She is a dirty communist now. Probably happened when she saw Russia from her house.
People are asking John McCain to run for President again, according to John McCain. “Particularly since the shutdown, I’ve had a spate of e-mails and letters and phone calls saying, ‘Run for president again.’ As you know, I’m seriously thinking about running for re-election to the Senate. But I think, in the words of the late Morris K. Udall, as far as my presidential ambitions are concerned, ‘The people have spoken — the bastards.'” says Sen. John McCain in dismissing another presidential bid in 2016. I do like McCain’s humor here.
So, right now it looks like the race for the VA AG has Democrat Herring up by 117 votes. They’ll be a recount, but right now this looks good.
Yeah, despite the purging of 40K from the rolls by the Rethugs.
I find it amusing that Sarah Palin is worried about what the leader of one religion says. I don’t go around hanging on the every word of any religious leader — including the pope, and I’m Catholic. The pope sounds kind of liberal? That’s funny. That is the same complaint we hear from people like Archbishop Chaput, but Francis has not contradicted one tenet of Catholic teaching.
What I hear the pope saying is that we should take care of the poor and not rush to judgment. You know, the kinds of things I learned so many years ago in Catholic school and kept believing were true despite 30+ years of culture-warrior mentality under Popes John Paul II and Benedict.
Is this woman never going to go away?
How ’bout those awesome Obamacare enrollment numbers??
Quick question: Are you morons proud of yourselves? My friend is a single mother with an 18-year old son. She’s been paying for an individual policy that covered both of them for years. She was PERFECTLY HAPPY with her coverage. Yesterday, she received her cancellation letter. Her new quote under Obamacare? TWICE AS MUCH. Now she’s going to have to drop her son and see if she can enroll him in Medicaid.
I would have expected hapless kids who lacked the political wherewithal to spot a fraud as he blathered on about getting more for less (free, even!), but not adults. THERE IS NO EXCUSE for anyone over the age of 25 to have not been able to look beyond the color of his skin and actually judge him by the content of his fucking character. He is and always was a slimy, lying sack of shit, but you guys were too busy creaming your panties about making history to give a rat’s ass about whether Lancelot was actually competent to hold the office. (Hint: HE WASN’T)
Now, thanks to people like you, our economy is going to take a spectacular nosedive AGAIN. My parents are paying twice as much for less coverage, my friend is paying twice as much for less coverage, millions of other people will be paying twice as much for less coverage, thousands of others will be losing their jobs as employers try to brace themselves for their mandate. Do some quick math and try to calculate how much money is now NOT GOING TO BE GOING INTO THE ECONOMY. The negative effects of this law are almost immeasurable at this point.
I’ve spent the better part of the past five years pretty pissed. I’m pretty much seething with red rage today after watching my friend choke back tears wondering how she’s going to care for her bi-polar son. I can’t even bask in the glory of having been SO FUCKING RIGHT about him all along because I’m so worried about her, my parents, and everyone else whose getting sodomized by this law.
Hope you’re happy. I’m sure Jimmy Carter is. The pressure’s totally off him now.
@D “Hope you’re happy.”
Not really. We should have single payer like the rest of the civilized world.
What we have is more like a scam to prop up the insurance companies… and that’s why healthcare is such a large chunk of our GDP.
…too bad we have a type of government that can easily be bought (at the expense of the public interest at large).
I have heard so many lies from the right on the ACC I don’t believe any of you.
@Liberal elite – 90% of the civilized world has a single payer system and sub-standard care for minorities. Everyone else has private insurance so they don’t have to sleep in a room with 19 other victims. BTW how is the ObamaCare roll out working for you?
I do agree with your last statement, but believe that the truly populist part is the Tea Party. Not the Dems or Reps.
Dom said:
THERE IS NO EXCUSE for anyone over the age of 25 to have not been able to look beyond the color of his skin and actually judge him by the content of his fucking character. He is and always was a slimy, lying sack of shit, but you guys were too busy creaming your panties about making history to give a rat’s ass about whether Lancelot was actually competent to hold the office. (Hint: HE WASN’T)
1. I don’t wear panties. I buy my MAN PANTS directly from COD.
2. Why are you shitting on Bill Clinton? He’s been out of office for more than a decade!
“My friend is a single mother with an 18-year old son. She’s been paying for an individual policy that covered both of them for years. She was PERFECTLY HAPPY with her coverage. Yesterday, she received her cancellation letter. Her new quote under Obamacare? TWICE AS MUCH. Now she’s going to have to drop her son and see if she can enroll him in Medicaid.”
Unless her son is a college student, she was going to have to drop him anyway — only students used to be able to stay on their parents’ policies before Obamacare. People who were perfectly happy with substandard coverage were those who never had occasion to use it. Her “new quote” is the policy her current carrier is telling her, hoping she’ll be uninformed enough to sign up at that price. If she shops around she could find a better rate, and if she’s below a fairly high income level she can get a subsidy for it.
I have watched for years as your bile and rage have ravaged what intellect you once had. You are a very sad case. I’ll pray for you.
@CB “90% of the civilized world has a single payer system and sub-standard care for minorities. Everyone else has private insurance so they don’t have to sleep in a room with 19 other victims…”
That just isn’t true, in general. What country are you talking about?
Certainly not Japan, South Korea, China, Taiwan, Canada, Australia, England, Ireland, Germany, Slovenia, Sweden, France…
And are you perhaps confusing immigrants with minorities?
Where are you talking about?? Israel? Syria?
@D “My friend is a single mother with an 18-year old son. She’s been paying for an individual policy that covered both of them for years. She was PERFECTLY HAPPY with her coverage. Yesterday, she received her cancellation letter. Her new quote under Obamacare? TWICE AS MUCH. Now she’s going to have to drop her son and see if she can enroll him in Medicaid.”
Question for you… Was that quote from the SAME company that dropped her coverage? Or was that the best quote she could find on the exchanges?
Lots of companies are scamming… charging outrageous rates and blaming it on Obamacare. Tell her to go to the actual exchange in her state and to simply ignore the quote from her current provider. She’ll be glad she did.
I’m also having trouble with Dom’s claim about her parents… who I would guess are on Medicare. Have those payments doubled?
Also, if you look closely at those claims of premiums doubling… we are talking about junk insurance – which is cheap and doesn’t cover much. Like Geezer said, those people who like those cheap plans haven’t used them, the others – the ones that have become ill/injured – who have used them make up the majority of bankruptcies.
My 23 year old son got a very decent quote through the exchange and, that’s with his age group paying higher rates. Now, hopefully he will get his ass into grad school and be able to stay on my insurance, which he couldn’t before. And Dominique, I did not vote for Obama because of his race but keep telling yourself that is the only reason he won. Hate destroys the hater.
I think the rule still is that Dominique is pretty much manufacturing her outrage as she goes. And there still isn’t much reason to pay attention to it.
“Now, thanks to people like you…”
No Dom, thanks to people like you, the House felt embolden to spend their time repealing Obamacare 43 times instead of dealing with health care costs and trying to improve the original act, which certainly could be improved. Think about it Dom, 43 times, knowing full well it was going nowhere. What if they had spent their time crafting responsible legislation, like a moratorium on policy cancellation, or anything other than dicking around like they did? You are responsible for the debacle in the House, you and people like you. I’ve spent the better part of 8 years being pissed at your abject ignorance and system that allows the ignorant to vote. You voted for Bush, twice. That in and of itself should disqualify you from voting because it demonstrates your inability to judge anything more than whether the green stuff in your lawn is grass or weeds.
Geezer: My friend’s son is a college student. And the rates she got were through both her provider and the Delaware exchange. She’s meeting with another insurance broker tomorrow, but she’s not expecting him to have anything better to offer.
Pandora: My parents are on MediCare, but they carried supplemental insurance to cover what MediCare doesn’t cover. Their policy wasn’t ‘junk’. It was a retiree policy, so it was pretty spectacular. They paid $200/mo and had dental coverage, prescription co-pays of $20, PCP co-pays of $20, and specialist co-pays of $35. If they were hospitalized, the cost to them would be $200/day for the first five days, then 90/10 after that. Now, they’ll pay about $425/mo for a policy that doesn’t cover dental or prescriptions (they would have to pay extra for that). They live on a fixed income, but they have savings they can dip into. What about the thousands of other seniors in their position who don’t have the luxury of savings??
The arrogance of the president and all of his minions (see: yourselves) thinking they know what’s best for people better than we know ourselves is absolutely stunning. If the policies were such ‘crap’ and the Obamacare options are so much better, why not just leave the policies in place and allow people to choose whether to switch to the Obamacare policies on their own???
This may come as a shock to all of you, but my parents don’t need maternity care or pediatric dental coverage. Neither does my friend, for that matter. Neither do millions of other Americans in their late 40s and older.
I know the economy isn’t at the top of your list of priorities, but have any of you considered for even a second that the additional money people will have to spend on health care premiums/deductibles will now NOT be spent with local retailers?? Are any of you capable of looking beyond any particular issue and to consider the big picture??
FYI – The housing market in Delaware took a noticeable nosedive in September/October. Artificially low rates were finally starting to turn things around for a couple of years, when the buyers suddenly disappeared. At first I wondered if it was because of the shutdown (which I was not in favor of, btw), but it hasn’t picked up one iota since that ended. You know what has? Uncertainty about the economy and how this ridiculous, short-sighted law is going to impact it, especially after the employer mandate goes into effect.
The richest irony of all is that this debacle was designed to help the uninsured, but its end result will be leaving millions of people who were once happily insured unable to afford insurance. And it’ll cost the taxpayers at least a trillion to do it.
Way. To. Go.
I am begging all of you to take off your Obama-loving, partisan hats and replace them with your common-sense, need to feed my family hats for five f’n minutes. This law is nothing short of a man-made economic disaster, and that’s not hyperbole. Even members of your own party are starting to jump ship because they see the writing on the wall. Wake up, for the love of Christ, and stop trying to deflect blame and make excuses for the people who crafted it.
Cassandra: Whatever helps you sleep at night, sweetie. There wouldn’t be enough Ambien on the planet to help me sleep if I had so openly and forcefully supported such a spectacular failure of a leader. Of course, that’s just me. You’ve never shown yourself to have much shame, so I’m sure you slip into a coma as soon as your head hits the pillow.
Dave: Just because you say the GOP didn’t craft responsible legislation, doesn’t make it true. That’s just a convenient lie the Democrats tell to help deflect the blame of this shitstorm onto someone else.
Tom Coburn and Paul Ryan crafted the Patient’s Choice Act, which would have achieved the same goal as Obamacare with minimal (if any) expense to the taxpayer. Unfortunately, Harry Reid didn’t see fit to put it to a vote. I mean, it would have been AWFUL to steal the president’s thunder with a better plan, wouldn’t it?
http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=b8876db7-2be0-4c84-b833-3d77dc4afa83
Dave: I never voted for Bush. I voted for Clinton, Clinton, Gore, and Kerry. I donated money to John Edwards, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Jack Markell, and Matt Denn.
You should probably limit your drivel to things you actually know, even tho that would render you essentially speechless.
CB is right, btw. People in single-payer countries who can afford it, pay for private insurance. My uncle in Italy is dying of cancer. He’s needed surgery for years, but can’t get approved for it because of his age. My aunt can barely walk because she needs a new hip, but she can’t get approved for surgery because of her age. I know you’ll accuse me of making that up, but it’s absolutely true. Single-payer systems are great if you’re young and healthy. Not so much if you’re old.
I was hugely disappointed: when I voted for Opposable THumbs in the DL poll, all I got was an error message. 🙁
Junk insurance is junk insurance, and as someone who had individual health insurance in their twenties – which I wrote about in 2008 – I know what I’m talking about. Individual Health Insurance policies change all the time – YOU DO NOT GET TO KEEP YOUR PLAN. That’s the nature of individual health insurance. And if we had gotten sick we would have been dropped, in a New York minute. People with these plans are paying A LOT out of pocket (doctors’ visits, prescription drugs, co-pays etc) which doesn’t help the economy. But keep singing that nonsensical tune.
And yeah, I’m calling BS on your single payer Italy nonsense. My sister-in-law is from Italy and my brother lived and worked there for six years. She has older parents who are on single payer, with health problems and are being taken care of. My other nephew also is Italian and visits his ailing grandparents all summer – they are old and have many medical problems and are being treated well and in a timely matter. I also have very wealthy Republican friends who wax lyrical on their time in England when they gave birth to their first child and how wonderful (and completely unlike the USA) their experience was. Trot out your stories and I’ll trot out mine.
And Dave… Dominique was a huge Hillary supporter. HUGE! Then Hillary lost the primary and Dominique lost her soul – and suddenly stopped believing in Hillary’s platform – all of it. WTF? Seriously, Dom, I worry about you. Your rage is disturbing… and a bit vulgar.
I rest my case. 3 posts in a row manufacturing even more outrage and probably not one bit of it true. Who needs truth (or data, for that matter) when you have perfectly good outrage that you’ve ginned up this morning?
Liberal Elite wrote:
Japan? From Sachi ab Hugh, concerning how her father was doing in single-payer japan:
More at the link. Read the whole thing: in single-payer Japan, treatment is guaranteed, but good treatment required additional insurance policies, and in Sachi’s father’s care, cronyism — her uncle is a high-ranking official at the hospital — and “gifts” for the physicians. More from Mrs ab Hugh:
Awesome. The anecdote that supports the delusion.
How about very liberal, single-payer New Zealand. The Phoenician in a Time of Romans is my site’s liberal gadfly — some of my other regulars have different descriptions for him — and he absolutely supports single payer. This is what he wrote on my (older) site, in January of 2010:
Really? If you’ve ever had an ingrown toenail, you know that it is extremely painful. He had the resources to go private — using the very same doctors who would have taken care of him under single payer — and did so, rather than wait four months for the single-payer system’s schedule. In four months, his toenails would have grown clear out the end of his toes.
As for me, I once had to see a podiatrist for an ingrown toenail. It hurt like heck, but I was able to see him the very day I called! (This was sometime around 1995.)
Single-payer does guarantee that everybody gets health care, but the reality is that governments everywhere are having real financial difficulties, and they have to cut costs wherever they can, and medical care is not exempt. What single-payer usually guarantees is that everybody gets crappy health care, and people with means usually buy private insurance to go around the crap system.
You’ve got *quite* a few anecdotes to collect before you have anything near real data. But hey — it’s your delusion.
Or perhaps you’d prefer the single-payer United Kingdom, where National Health Service patients are 45% more likely to die in the hospital than in the US, and hospitals have been told by the government to delay routine patient appointments for eight weeks, otherwise they will not be paid for them.
Perhaps you believe that stories from the British media concerning the NHS constitute anecdotes, too?
Wonder how that compares to the death rate of Americans who simply have no insurance or health care?
Or — even better — can’t be treated by the Mayo Clinic?
I believe that you found a story that provides no links to the data that it purports to expose.
Perhaps you’ll believe the Fraser Institute’s studies of average waiting times in Canada. The shortest average waiting times is for general practitioner referral for oncology procedures, at 4.1 weeks. For those who don’t know, oncology care means cancer treatment.
From the Canadian version of Heritage or Heartland? I think you’re the only one here credulous enough for that.
“Most Canadians (85.2 percent) aged 15 years and older reported being ‘very satisfied’ or ‘somewhat satisfied’ with the way overall health care services were provided, unchanged from 2005.”
14.8 percent of Canadians pine for American style gourmet hospital food that you order of a menu and our house calls from kindly country docs.
Oh, so you want to dismiss the source, without asking if it was inaccurate or not. Perhaps you’ll trust The Washington Post, and it’s report on Danny Williams, who was the premier — the chief executive — of Newfoundland and Labrador, who chose to have his heart surgery in Florida. Mr Williams said, “This was my heart, my choice and my health. I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics.”
I only buy my shoelaces in Italy. So?
Duh. Rich people get (and pay for) great care – along with the best vacations, wine, etc.. You, Dana, could never tap into these resources.
Back to Japan. Sachi ab Hugh noted that her father had three insurance policies on top of Japan’s single payer system. You think that’s an “anecdote,” but the obvious question arises: if health care treatment in Japan was already very good under single-payer, why would there even be private health insurance? There would be virtually no market for it if it wasn’t needed.
Dana’s arguments have jumped the shark. It is comical.
What is the wait time for oncology care for people with health insurance? Even with very good health insurance it takes a while to get an appointment with a specialist.
A problem with fee for service is that it is the financial interest of specialists to push certain procedures. Finding the right procedure can be like shopping for a car, each doctor pushes their speciality.
Dana, Keep going. Get it all out. Then go charge up your medicare paid for HOV-around and head out to the Senior center.
@D “Back to Japan. Sachi ab Hugh noted that her father had three insurance policies on top of Japan’s single payer system.”
But the reason those extra policies are so cheap in Japan, is that they are on top of the national system. It’s like buying a business class upgrade, and not a first class ticket (like we need to do here in America).
Pandora wrote:
Actually, I already do, at least as far as health care is concerned. I’ve needed cataract surgery on both eyes, right eye in 2004, and my left eye in 2010. Easily scheduled, great results, and my insurance paid for every penny. I also have what my gastroenterologist diagnoses as crohn’s disease — though it’s an odd, non-inflammatory type — and I’ve been hospitalized a couple of times due to it. A private room, both times, once in Christiana Hospital (2000) and once in Lehigh Valley. The last time I called my GI, I was able to see him the very next day, and I didn’t even call until late in the afternoon. If I need to make an appointment with my ophthalmologist — and ophthalmology appointments are not usually considered emergencies, outside of injuries — I can get in within just a few days. When I needed to see a hand specialist — a really cute Norwegian doctor — when I tore a ligament in m left hand a couple of months ago, I got in on her very next hand clinic day, which was about half a week.
That’s the kind of prompt treatment Americans expect when it comes to medical care, but which normally doesn’t happen in the single-payer countries. (There are a couple of exceptions, but they tend to be small countries with ethnically homogeneous populations.) Single payer would cover everybody here, but it’s highly unlikely it would provide the same quality and promptness of treatment that Americans with insurance receive now.
Hillary Clinton even recognized that. In her 1993 health care proposal, a provision was included to make it a felony to use outside funds to go around the waiting lines. Why? Because they knew that waiting lines would exist, and that they’d be long enough that people of means would pay extra to get around them. If such wasn’t a concern, why bother adding such a controversial clause?
Mr 330 snarks:
Alas! I’m only 60, and not eligible for Medicare, so I guess that you’ve gotten it wrong . . . again.
First, you live in the sticks… so, yes, getting an appointment is easy – top tier physicians, not so much. Good thing you’re only dealing with very minor conditions. Second, if you think rich people are using Christiana and Lehigh Valley hospitals… Bwhahaha!
BTW, don’t you’re children qualify for, and probably use, government health care?
Mr McKinney wrote:
Really? That hasn’t been my experience, unless you are referring to a day or two as being “it takes a while.”
Even if we had single payer, physicians are going to favor the procedures that they think best; that’s human nature. No system is perfect,by any means, but American health care, for those who have insurance, is the best in the world.
Of course, even in our single-payer set-up for Medicare, it’s still fee-for-service. The government has tried all sorts of ways to reduce those costs, which has resulted in about 20% of physicians simply not accepting Medicare patients, and almost a third will not accept new Medicaid patients, because Medicare and Medicaid payments are low and slow.
Pandora asked:
Both of my daughters are in the Army Reserve, and they have Tricare. They have to pay insurance premiums for Tricare, which makes it no different from us paying insurance premiums for civilian insurance.
Tricare is very different, but you keep pretending it’s not.
“American health care, for those who have insurance, is the best in the world.”
Actually, it depends heavily on the insurance plan you have. You have already made very plain your “I’ve got mine, Jack” attitude, but many people with insurance plans have minimal coverage.
Dana: PROOF, PROOF, PROOF, DATA, DATA, DATA, PROOF, PROOF, PROOF, PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, PROOF
Peanut Gallery: LIES!
You guys are seriously pathetic. Seriously.
And Cassandra referring to ANYONE as delusional is really rich.
BTW, Pandora, thanks for your concern for my disturbing and vulgar rage. Trust that it’s rivaled by my concern for your inability to be able to discern right from wrong because you’re so laughably blinded by your love for Dear Leader.
Oh, and I didn’t lose my soul when the community organizer won; I simply opened my eyes to the fact that the party that had spent 20+ years manipulating me into voting for their candidates because ‘WAR ON WOMEN!’ had tossed aside an infinitely better qualified woman to back a novelty act with a pretty smile and a lucrative mailing list.
But who could blame you kittens? He is JUST SO COOL!
Dominique, Didn’t you mean “Poof”
I wasn’t referring to Obama’s approval ratings.
BOOM!
The problem with these rants is that they don’t describe most people who voted for Obama. I voted for him because I don’t want any more non-liberal Democrats like the Clintons. I was willing to take a chance that Obama would be better. It didn’t work out. So what? I wasn’t fooled, I was hopeful.
I don’t care about whether he’s “cool” or any such nonsense. I am sorely disappointed by his actions in office, but I also know that Hillary would have almost certainly followed the same path on the war-on-terror and NSA issues. She might, or might not, have been more willing to fight the good fight than Obama has been, but all I see is that we had a choice between a known DLC Democrat and an unknown who turned out to be a DLC Democrat.
Contrary to your claims, you knew no more about Obama than anyone else did — you just chose to parrot the vile personal animosity shown by conservatives. Stop trying to cover yourself in glory. You’re nothing but a bitter bundle of nasty prejudices, and you prove it every time you type. I don’t know what the source of this rage is — feeling worthless, perhaps? — but it’s sad to see in action.
As for the approval ratings, you and your fellow travelers didn’t cause the drop — y’all have hated him since the beginning. Liberals are falling away now because the continuing NSA outrages show that he’s as bound up in the beltway worldview as the Clintons and the Republicans are, and independents are disgusted with the Obamacare fiasco.
Furthermore, the sharp turn to the right shows that your allegiance to the Democrats was never any deeper than the lining of your uterus. Now that you’ve hit menopause you’re free to let your inner bigot run rampant.
A couple living in a NYC boro are very happy with ACA rates.
My twenty-something niece Marielle and her husband wrote on facebook today that they are an Obamacare victory.
She reports: “Craig filled out our online healthcare app yesterday and though there were a few annoying things about the process, it now looks like our joint plan will go down from $530 (current plan for sole proprietors) to $100/month based on our income etc. So pretty happy about Obama right now. Thank God it’s starting to work… I get such a knot in my stomach hearing such cynical denouncements of doom about the website rollout.”
“American health care, for those who have insurance *that won’t disapprove your treatment*, is the best in the world.”
Fixed that.
And the best health care in the world has about a million Americans going to places like Mexico, India, Costa Rica, Columbia, Phillipines for cheaper and world-class medical treatment. Employers are beginning to look at this as a good option for some high-priced treatments.
Dana…Really? That hasn’t been my experience, unless you are referring to a day or two as being “it takes a while.”
You are totally without credibility on that.
Also, it is easy to think a procedure is the right one when it enriches you. I’m sure most salespeople out there truly believe they are selling the best product.
Dom
had tossed aside an infinitely better qualified woman to back a novelty act with a pretty smile and a lucrative mailing list.
But who could blame you kittens? He is JUST SO COOL!
I can’t argue with that.I would add to a less progressive candidate who also took a safe vote on the Iraq war. The political adage Democrats fall in love Republicans fall in line always seems to hold true. Thats no reason not to push for Obama’s policies.
To Tom’s point – Salon has an article up that I haven’t had time to read – the gist was that Democrats try to use the presidential primary process to enact policy while Republicans use house races. The GOP’s system is clearly better.