Monday Open Thread [8.18.14]
Mychal Denzel Smith writes about what matters in Ferguson, for we are in danger of losing sight of it due to continued stupid violence and looting, which of course feeds right into the county cops’ and the right wing’s narrative:
Michael Brown was shot and killed by an officer of the Ferguson, Missouri, police department. This is what matters.
The name of the officer has been released (it’s Darren Wilson, who has been on the force for six years), alongside allegations that Brown was involved in a robbery. This does not matter.
It doesn’t matter because people accused of robbery should not be shot. It doesn’t matter because people who put their hands up in surrender should not be shot. It doesn’t matter because a body should not lie in the streets for hours after being shot by a police officer.
Michael Brown was shot and killed by an officer of the Ferguson, Missouri, police department. Everything else is irrelevant.
Too bad some fucking idiot criminals have seen fit to embrace violence instead of nonviolence. Thank you for giving cover to the local police. Thank you for obscuring the story. Thank you for confirming all the biases against you. Fucking idiots.
Max Fisher writes how we would cover this story if it were happening overseas. Supposed to be satire.
Chinese and Russian officials are warning of a potential humanitarian crisis in the restive American province of Missouri, where ancient communal tensions have boiled over into full-blown violence.
“We must use all means at our disposal to end the violence and restore calm to the region,” Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in comments to an emergency United Nations Security Council session on the America crisis.
The crisis began a week ago in Ferguson, a remote Missouri village that has been a hotbed of sectarian tension. State security forces shot and killed an unarmed man, which regional analysts say has angered the local population by surfacing deep-seated sectarian grievances. Regime security forces cracked down brutally on largely peaceful protests, worsening the crisis.
America has been roiled by political instability and protests in recent years, which analysts warn can create fertile ground for extremists.
Missouri, far-removed from the glistening capital city of Washington, is ostensibly ruled by a charismatic but troubled official named Jay Nixon, who has appeared unable to successfully intervene and has resisted efforts at mediation from central government officials. Complicating matters, President Obama is himself a member of the minority sect protesting in Ferguson, which is ruled overwhelmingly by members of America’s majority “white people” sect.
Analysts who study the opaque American political system, in which all provinces are granted semi-autonomous self-rule, warned that Nixon may seize the opportunity to move against weakened municipal rulers in Ferguson. Missouri’s provincial legislature, a traditional “shura council,” is dominated by the opposition faction. Though fears of a military coup remain low, it is still unknown how Nixon’s allies within the capital will respond should the crisis continue.
Now, international leaders say they fear the crisis could spread.
One of the more fascinating sidelights of the crisis in Ferguson is the way it has revealed the complacent, obedient, and fundamentally non-journalistic instincts of certain leading centrist establishmentarian journalists. The precipitating event was the arrest of Wesley Lowery, a young Washington Post reporter who was illegally ordered to leave a McDonalds near the demonstrations and, correctly, refused, leading to his arrest.
This angered Joe Scarborough. And by “angered,” we should be clear, we mean angered at the presumption of Lowery for refusing. The avuncular host of Morning Joe instructed him, “Next time a police officer tells you that you’ve got to move along because you’ve got riots outside, well, you probably should move along.” (Because nothing says “journalism” like following orders from authorities, however questionable, self-interested, or illegal they may be.) Scarborough attributed Lowery’s refusal not to any commitment to continue doing his job but to his desire to “get on TV and have people talk about me the next day,” because the desire to get on television in any way possible is the only motivation that makes sense to Joe Scarborough.
Lowery replied sharply.
They are stenographers, not journalists. Lowery was not awaiting instructions. And he was not following them. How dare he.
But the Supreme Court doesn’t think we need the Voting Rights Act anymore because the problem of racism in this country has been solved. SHEESH!
With all due respect, I take issue with calling the looters and demostraters “fucking idiots.” Those people went to the streets as a last resort and were met with military tactics. As Professor Newton commented last week, what exactly was the alternative?
A lovely non-violent protest and candle lighting vigil that either gets forgotten in a week or gets literally bulldozed in 90 seconds by the standing militia of white St Louis Co.
Yeah, the cops will use the riots against the people. “Animals.” Savages… So what? The alternative is that more unarmed people get choked out, stopped and frisked, punched, tazed, shot and killed while everybody follows your protest rules.
Fuck that, get in the streets and make worldwide news. It’s the only option available right now. Deep down in you gut, DD, you know I’m right. I’m certain almost everybody knows this, but wishy washy political speak and quote-civility-unquote make people afraid to say it.
Next thing you’ll say is that Snowden should come back and “face the music.” Should the group in Media, PA not have stolen those FBI files in the 60s because it was “against the law?”
Well, I’ll say it. Get out it the street and do whatever it takes to get justice. Take a fucking stand. This isn’t some abstract idea, like where you can carry you gun or federal land-use regulations. Blacks are being hassled, locked up and killed in the streets. I repeat… take a fucking stand. The “police” in full assault gear point loaded automatic rifles at my sister or wife and I’m suposed to give them flowers and flash a peace sign. Fuck that. Fuck that right in earhole.
I 100% support everyone out in the streets! Every last person…
I suspect that some of the Sons of Liberty who participated in the Stamp Act riots in 1765, and who burned down Lieutenant Governor Thomas Hutchinson’s house, and who later dropped all the tea (private, corporate property!) into the Boston Harbor, and who threw rocks at the Redcoats just prior to the “Boston Massacre” … I’ll bet that a few of them engaged in some looting.
(Actually, I know they did, cause I’m a historian, and I’ve read the accounts.)
But they were all patriots and heroes, not packs of feral looters.
I’m trying really hard to figure out what the difference was between the gang-bangers that Sam Adams led into riots and the people in Ferguson today.
Nothing’s standing out. I’m still in the dark. In the inky, black dark.
Good ladies and gentlemen… Dr S. Newton has spoken. That should just about wrap it up.
I’m thinking that most of this violence is police departments’ turf war. Who exactly is in charge in Ferguson? I have no idea.
Last Thursday it looked like cooler heads were prevailing. Then the dumbest Police Chief ever released a video he was asked not to release. And then what happened? Can someone fire this guy? He’s fanning the flames.
And now we have one autopsy result, but someone inside the police department/medical examiner’s office decides to leak that Mike Brown had traces of pot in his system. To which I say… so what? Funny how (certain) law enforcement in Ferguson can leak some things (and even had the nerve to say that they had to release the video because FOIA) while not releasing other things – things that were also FOIA’d.
The smear campaign of Mike Brown coming out of Ferguson is vile. It’s also really close to deliberating inciting a riot. These actions/leaks are deliberate. Someone has to take control, because it sure looks like a police turf war to me.
Comparing apples to horses . . . no wonder you’re lost in the inky, black dark. Then again, maybe you’ve found the horse’s apples groping around in that inky, black dark. That would explain the ignorance sprouting from self-righteousness knowing what you do not.
No one knows shit – yet. That, however, hasn’t stopped people from an uniformed exercise of their coveted First Amendment right to protect. Glaring example, many have taken to holding arms up in surrender as a gesture of affinity with Michael Brown. Thing is – it isn’t clear that Brown was even trying to surrender. There are conflicting eyewitness accounts. Some are pointing to the autopsy as proof, for and against, that his hands were up or down.
If it turns out that Mr. Brown was, in fact, running at the officer and he shot in self-defense, then what? Do I get to write-off the fools that held up their hands? Do I get to ignore the point of the political protest because they were no more than fools that got sucked into a destructive racial narrative on bad facts.
This story could be about racism. Then again, it could be about a cop wildly overacting. It could be about cop on a power trip. Then again, it could be about guy charging a police officer who ended up dead before he got the cop.
There is a reason why we wait to inform ourselves before we act. You do dumb shit, sometimes historically dumb (think the Iraq war) when you act first.
Wow, for someone who’s moniker is about not taking it… you seem to take it all day.
More horse shit neutral talk. What other info do you need? How many more killings do we need to document.
Unarmed. Black. Hassled for jaywalking by cops. Gets murdered.
It’s not that complicated.
How very white of you (edit: pointed towards ATIAM).
What people do known is that there is a young man dead for dumb shit reasons. A stop over jaywalking should not end up with a kid dead. Which is why I keep asking if you would be OK if it would be OK for one of yours to be dead over jaywalking. Seriously, I just want ONE OF YOU to say the words — that this young man and his family shouldn’t expect any better from law enforcement.
I just love the way ATIAM doesn’t address a word I said (I’m getting use to that, btw). I was talking about the police leadership’s behavior – which are things that we do know.
Notice that ATIAM falls reading comprehension. I was commenting on the rabid characterization of protesters (mostly, but not exclusively) African-American, in which the co-existence of looting with protest is being used to ridicule the idea that there is any reason to protest, to undermine any legitimacy to protest.
This in a town that is 65% African-American and has a police force that is 95% white, with a longstanding record of harassing African-Americans, and in a place where the police response has been uncoordinated, heavy-handed, and revelatory of exactly what’s wrong with entrusting local police forces with heavy military hardware.
Notice that none of this pre-supposes anything about the truth or falsity of any of the stories circulating about Michael Brown’s death. The individuals who get killed and become the spark for long-standing grievances are often–as individuals–quite in the wrong.
At least one of the teenagers shot in the Boston Massacre had, by all accounts at trial, been throwing rocks at British soldiers without provocation. John Adams used that fact to get the soldiers off, ironically knowing that doing so would further provoke public reaction.
Or take the Civil War and the supposed martyrdom of “Pottowattamie” John Brown after Harper’s Ferry. If there was ever a murdering psychopath serial killer who became the poster child for the anti-slavery movement, it was Brown. “John Brown’s Body” …
Likewise, the bar patrons at Stonewall were breaking the law when the police raided the place. The law was ridiculous, and the LGBT community had had enough. So they fought back. Interestingly enough, even though there was random violence, vandalism, and (yes) even looting during the Stonewall Riots, the incident is today remembered as the beginning of the modern LGBT Rights movement–as the time where the people of that community said, “We’re done. Not one step further.” It didn’t really matter that this police action was like dozens of others that had occurred earlier the same year.
ATIAM wants to sit back with his martini, loosen his collar slightly, and over the edge of his portfolio (heavy in defense industry stocks and healthcare companies), go, “Tut, tut! Let’s everyone be reasonable and measured, and wait patiently until all the facts are known.” Then, of course, the facts will be weighted in such fashion that blame can be apportioned all around, which will keep anybody from having to indict the status quo.
Because if we all accept ATIAM’s line of bullshit, the equation of an out-of-control police force with the rampant passing out of surplus military hardware and the consistent government position that “order” is the most (and perhaps only) civil right, then nothing will change, and we are possibly only a few years from cops with assault rifles, helmets, and kevlar vests being on the streets of Wilmington (or Dover, or Newark), smiling from behind their mirror shades and asking young dark-skinned men for their papers, please.
Oh, and for those discussing pack of feral looters it now becomes evident that members of the Ferguson community are self-organizing to protect stores etc. from looting during the protests.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/16/ferguson-protesters-guard-stores_n_5684042.html
This would be bad, because if they did that, people might actually have to start paying attention to what they are saying, and what’s going on with police militarization.
Via Twitter: Getty photographer, Scott Olson, just arrested in Ferguson. He has worked in war zones throughout the world.
While he’ll probably be released (since that’s the way it goes in Ferguson), does anyone else wonder why so many journalists are being arrested and threatened? This doesn’t strike me as a smart move.
He’s not the only one:
Chris Hayes was threatened with mace and I read someplace that Don Lemon from CNN was shoved around. Nothing like providing real live 1st Amendment bait to journalists to *make sure* your story stays on the front page for awhile.
I’ve read enough right-wing blog comments (elsewhere, not here) to see that there are lots of armchair patriots who want violence against the demonstrators.
That police chief should be out of a job ASAP. He is, as someone above said, deliberately trying to provoke violence on the part of the rioters.
As Hunter pointed out over at Daily Kos, a pro-cop protest is St. Louis proper was held without any police presence at all. Different strokes indeed.
As I sit here watching people march around Ferguson I’m struck by the utter stupidity of those in charge. Why do they keep making up rules that serve as lines in the sand? Instituting a curfew (now removed) = let’s see what happens at midnight. Protesters must keep walking = let’s see what happens when people stop walking. What rule will be implemented tomorrow? Protesters must hop on one foot?
All these rules accomplish is a designated/scheduled flashpoint.
Quoting Prof Newt:
“I’m trying really hard to figure out what the difference was between the gang-bangers that Sam Adams led into riots and the people in Ferguson today.
Nothing’s standing out. I’m still in the dark. In the inky, black dark.”
Then you characterize what you said:
“I was commenting on the rabid characterization of protesters (mostly, but not exclusively) African-American, in which the co-existence of looting with protest is being used to ridicule the idea that there is any reason to protest, to undermine any legitimacy to protest.”
You weren’t commenting. You were asking. You declared that YOU didn’t understand the difference between revolution era Sam Adams types and the gang banger types of Ferguson. Don’t shade your shit.
I am critical of the protestors. Not their right to protest. Not their anger. But their motivation. Fools motivated by the hate ingrained in race relations in this country. Maybe they could protest the thousands of black men killed by other black men – surely a problem taking more lives.
As for the “how much more do you need to know.” Much more. Too many here seem to be driven to prove their liberal, socially enlighten bona fides that you willing ignore conflicting witness accounts, forensic evidence that conflicts. It had to be racist cop that murdered an unarmed kid. Couldn’t possibly be any other explanation. You’re as bad as the blissful fools that deny racism played any part in the outcome.
As to Cass, right black at ya. If my white son was dead under similar circumstances, I’d be dead with anger. You’re absolutely right that a stop for jaywalking shouldn’t end up with a dead kid. It’s just as true, however, that a stop for jaywalking shouldn’t result in an attack of the officer – if that’s what happened. Expect better from law enforcement – absolutely. Expect better my your son – absolutely.
Bottom line – follow the facts. Prosecute if appropriate. Protest based on truth not lies.
“You weren’t commenting. You were asking. You declared that YOU didn’t understand the difference between revolution era Sam Adams types and the gang banger types of Ferguson. Don’t shade your shit.”
You need to turn your sarcasm detector on. It’s a rhetorical question. Think about it and you’ll get it.
“Maybe they could protest the thousands of black men killed by other black men – surely a problem taking more lives.”
See if you can understand this: Black men who kill other black men don’t do so because they consider their victims “feral.” Do you get that, or is it beyond your mental capacity? I only ask because you can’t recognize a rhetorical question when you see one.
The people of Ferguson aren’t protesting based on the facts of this case. They’re protesting because this was the last straw.
Oh, and your claim that if your son were gunned down you’d be upset at him? Pure, unadulterated bullshit. You’re a rationalizer to the core. You would rationalize that, too. Conservatives always do.
That was a whole lot of deflection.
*Miss rhetorical question. Check.
*Psychic powers into other people’s motivation. Check.
*Trotting out conservative meme of black on black crime. Check.
*Pretend to be the only clear thinking, fact based person while spewing scenarios that would make Rush Limbaugh proud. Check.
MediaMatters compiles a bunch of information on “black-on-black” crime:
For someone who keeps telling people to “follow the facts”, you seem to have remarkably few of them.
And perhaps you’d like to read this before you fall into that “black on black crime” conservative talking point.
ATIAM: I am critical of the protestors. Not their right to protest. Not their anger. But their motivation. Fools motivated by the hate ingrained in race relations in this country. Maybe they could protest the thousands of black men killed by other black men – surely a problem taking more lives.
Pretty much gives us where you are coming from: black people protesting are “fools motivated by … hate” who should be smart enough to be protesting their own killing each other rather than responding to the government police state.
Do you ever even TRY to see how what you say looks from the perspective of others?
Nah, stupid question. (And, since you missed it last time . . . rhetorical.)
What this case has brought out is that white people are more likely to identify with the white cops than the black protestors. Big surprise there. For whites to put themselves in the place of blacks requires too much imagination for many of them.
Geezer:
Perfect example of a mentality that refuses to look in the mirror for their own responsibility and instead prefers to lay every single ounce of fault anywhere targets of convenience lend themselves to it.
Tell us about Ferguson, MS. Inform us about that last straw. Was the city or county subject to USDOJ oversight for civil rights abuses? How about existing consent orders? What about civil right cases/judgment/settlements relating to police brutality? Frequent police/civil rights based protests before Mr. Brown’s death? Do tell. How is that a city that’s 2/3 black has but one black in city government? You talk about the last straw like you know something but as is often the case your lack of context forces you to parrot what other like minds chirp.
If my son charged a police officer over a jaywalking incident and died, I’d be a hell of a lot angrier with him for it than with the police officer. Just like I’d be angry at him if he died in a drunken driving accident he caused. The last I heard accepting responsibility is not a uniquely liberal or conservative value.
This whole conversation is mind-blowing.
In any other context, suggesting that we take time to find the truth is the norm, the expectation. Here such a suggestion is ridiculed as racist, conservative dolt, horse shit, stupid and victim of ignoring the obvious.
The conversation is mind blowing for its self-righteousness. Too many are too happy to speak with authority while laughing at others because they just don’t get it. Happy to avoid asking tough questions by ignoring them.
Not sure why the conversation should continue since the know-it alls already know enough.
First hit on google for Ferguson, MS: http://www.ferguson.com/branch/jackson-ms-showroom
now Ferguson, MO is an entirely different subject.
“All these rules accomplish is a designated/scheduled flashpoint”
Right. Why have rules at all? If you don’t want to pay for a box of cigars, just take them.
If a policeman asks you to get out of the middle of the street, why listen to him?
If a cop has a gun and you don’t, just grab for it.
Nothing but “flashpoints”, these silly rules.
What an idiot.
“Tell us about Ferguson, MS. Inform us about that last straw. ”
Look it up yourself. There’s plenty of material out there. I”m too busy to educate the ignorant.
“You talk about the last straw like you know something but as is often the case your lack of context forces you to parrot what other like minds chirp.”
No, asshole, I spent a good part of the weekend reading up on race relations in Ferguson and St. Louis. You’re describing yourself there, not me. We’re talking about a town in which someone mistakenly detained was charged with destruction of property for bleeding on the arresting officers’ uniforms. Just because YOU don’t know your ass from your elbow doesn’t mean we’re all similarly uninformed.
“If my son charged a police officer over a jaywalking incident and died, I’d be a hell of a lot angrier with him for it than with the police officer. ”
Again, bullshit. You have no idea how you’d feel, but I guarantee you would not be angrier at him than at his killer.
Your lack of imagination is the problem here. You can’t see past the looters to the legitimate grievances of the people who live there. Smug, white and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
“Happy to avoid asking tough questions by ignoring them. ”
What are the tough questions here?
I can only imagine the defense that would be mounted for Tparty protesters. What if the baggers’ got out of control and had to be subdued. How hard would we defend their right to loot and pillage? It’s wrong. It does nothing but generate ill will towards an otherwise noble cause.
We agree with what the peaceful protesters are fighting for. But as for the looters… the people stealing and destroying PRIVATE PROPERTY … fuck those savages.
I dont say savages because of how they look, or who they pray to or screw. I say savages because they are attacking at random. They are using the unrest as an excuse to do harm. Savages. It isnt like they are burning police precincts or cars (they shouldnt) I say savages because they hurt the cause. They are like the twits at OWS who turned it into a jazz-finger drum circle. You become EXACTLY what the “enemy” says you will become and it hurts the other 99% of decent people who dont want to live in an occupied America.
But XYZ…. you also take it too far. A cop isn’t your boss. A cop isnt your daddy. a cop’s job is to protect and serve you. If they cant do it without being in a tank firing tear gas… or bullets… at you, they shouldn’t be a cop, and you have every right to ignore them. NOT TO BURN DOWN A STORE NOT OWNED BY THE POLICE…. but to remain peacefully in public.
ATIAM – You think there’s more info out there. That’s cool. Good ahead and wait, but just because you’re waiting for some magic data point to make things clear for you we’re already clear.
You wrote, “If my son charged a police officer over a jaywalking incident and died, I’d be a hell of a lot angrier with him for it than with the police officer.”
First of all that is complete madness on its face. Cop shot YOUR unarmed kid during an argument about jaywalking and you’re more pissed at your dead kid. You are a loon.
Second, it’s easier for you to say that because if your kid is white the chance of being hassled by a cop for jaywalking or riding your bike on the sidewalk or generally just loitering are very close to nil. If you’re black in a black neighborhood the chances are closer to 100% – and not once in your life – near 100% chance each and every week.
Read Taibbi’s new book about the gross descrepancies ans inequalitiy in enforcement of petty “crimes.” You don’t understand because you’re not thinking about it critically and widely enough. That’s fine. But I stick by my comment about what your wrote and what I quoted above. That’s utter and complete madness and I truly question you mental aptitude.
ben – As I said before. The Tea Party “activists” go out and protest abstract ideas like corporate tax and open carry rights. I don’t think that rises to this level.
If the government started harrassing and executing unarmed tea partiers in the streets I’d say they can riot. How about that?
A looter may have legitimate grievances with the cops, but that is not a legitimate reason to rob a private business.
Im not defending the cops. Im defending the new victims created by the cops and the suck-fish who would be out rioting or looting over anything. The heroes here are those who are practicing civil disobedience while also keeping the mob from making it worse. Of course the media will only give attention to the looters… but we KNOW this. we KNOW one incident of looting will be made to define the entire ordeal. We can whine about it and talk about how unfair it is…. or we … the infinitive we (in this case they, the protesters in Ferguson) … can very loudly and publicly cut them off. Dont defend them. It is possible to have an opinion that condemns both the police and the looters (few as there are)….
Fair enough, DG…. I still dont see any reason to burn and pillage. The cops are in YOUR neighborhood making life horrible for YOUR neighbors. How the hell is the correct response to do damage to your neighborhood and neighbors? do you think the cops who occupy Ferguson live there or give a crap about it?
I can only imagine the defense that would be mounted for Tparty protesters.
You would be talking about the Cliven Bundy thing. Even though he is guilty of stealing and faced off against the Feds, not one of them were killed. Not. One. And there was very good reason for the Feds to be very tough on this crew.
Exactly. The Cliven Bundy situation is the comparison. The restraint showed by law enforcement (and many in the media) was telling – and, don’t get me wrong, I think police showing restraint is a good thing. Imagine if the Ferguson protesters were in their homes/businesses (rooftops) pointing guns at the police and saying that they would shoot at any officers that crossed their threshold. What do we think would happen?
IMO, law enforcement has many responsibilities (being allowed to use lethal force comes with responsibility and accountability and TRANSPARENCY). One is preserving the peace and protection. But, just as important is the ability to diffuse a situation.
I’ve been thinking about the way to handle these protests, and I’m wondering why the police aren’t using plain clothes police officers to walk with protesters. (Maybe they are doing this. I don’t know.) That way they could easily identify troublemakers, arrest them and avoid using tear gas.
What strikes me most about the images out of Ferguson is the stark divide between the police and protesters.
DG
Read for comprehension.
What I wrote, in plain vanilla english, was that if my son charged a police officer over jaywalking then I’d be pissed at him for blowing a simple problem widly out of proportion.
Not thinking critically and wide enough – really! You among many others have already figured it all out, every bit of it, knowing little more than a race narrative, and you suggest the problem is others not thinking critically or widen enough. Happy you are to glom on to the mass hysteria, cause its the right thing to do, and condone ill-conceived protests and now the related looting.
Just for kicks tell us what you are “clear” about? Love to hear it.
I haven’t heard anyone you’re calling out claiming to know what happened the day Mike Brown was killed. So who are you accusing of having it all figured out? Could you name them?
And there’s no way in hell you’d be pissed at your son for being killed for jaywalking. But here’s an interesting part of your statement: “I’d be pissed at him for blowing a simple problem widly out of proportion.”
The point that people are making is that when it comes to interaction with law enforcement it isn’t always the accused/victim that are reacting disproportionally. It isn’t disputed that black Americans are stopped by police far more often than white Americans. Every encounter raises the risk of things possibly ending badly.
Why are the protests ill-conceived?
The Cliven Bundy comparison is an apt one. But I keep forgetting — he wasn’t “stealing” the million dollars he owes.
Geezer:
I asked about Ferguson’s civil rights record having already done my research. Nothing at the DOJ Civil Rights office. Nothing on PACER. No consent orders. I found two previous civil rights claims against the police. An overwhelming majority of the police and city government are white yet the population is 2/3 black. Can’t for the life of me figure out how the crackers in Ferguson were so sucessful in gerrymandering the entire city such that that only one black person is currently in elected office. Couldn’t find voting rights cases involving Ferguson. All of this happening in a city that falls within the shadow of St. Louis – no civil rights lawyers there to litigate the pre-last straw death of Mr. Brown.
You dont’ have time to school me. Right! You so prefer the bliss of lazy ignorance that having to substantiate your bullshit is so beneth you. Love to know what you read this weekend?
Scream the loudest. Insult the most. That be you. Think – not so much you.
Clive Bundy should have been arrested. Failing that he should have been shot – dead if necessary. Broke the law, defied the law, stealing self-righteous sack of shit. Letting him continue to this day as he has is wrong through any lens.
Maybe the federal marshalls should have just gone to Bundy with guns ablazing cause that’s what happened in Ferguson.
“I was not the one to invent lies: they were created in a society divided by class and each of us inherited lies when we were born. It is not by refusing to lie that we will abolish lies: it is by eradicating class by any means necessary.”—Jean-Paul Sartre
“You dont’ have time to school me. Right!”
I’m working, so I don’t have time to go through my browser history today. Sorry.
“You so prefer the bliss of lazy ignorance that having to substantiate your bullshit is so beneth you.”
Keep telling yourself that, asshole. You don’t know what you’re talking about, so you can’t imagine anyone else does either.
“I asked about Ferguson’s civil rights record having already done my research. Nothing at the DOJ Civil Rights office. Nothing on PACER. No consent orders.”
That’s what you call research? The people of Ferguson live with these cops — the ones caught on microphone calling the first-night protestors “fucking animals” — every day. How many of them even know that those avenues are available to them? Until 2010, complaints about individual officers weren’t even kept in their files, so we have no way of knowing if the cop involved here had complaints against him. What a bullshit response.
“An overwhelming majority of the police and city government are white yet the population is 2/3 black. Can’t for the life of me figure out how the crackers in Ferguson were so sucessful in gerrymandering the entire city such that that only one black person is currently in elected office.”
White flight is in progress. Twenty years ago the town was more than 2/3rds white.
“All of this happening in a city that falls within the shadow of St. Louis – no civil rights lawyers there to litigate the pre-last straw death of Mr. Brown.”
There is very little money in civil rights law. You apparently think that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are around to fight every case of police brutality in the country. Typical white suburbanite — if the TV shows blacks complaining about something, talk about their culture of victimization.
“Scream the loudest. Insult the most. That be you. Think – not so much you.”
Once again, you describe yourself more than me.
Hello? There’s a big problem.
I’d be very interested in seeing the demographics of these schools/districts. I have a hunch…
You got nothing but the insults. Always Helpful
REally? You already knew about the demographics changing because of white flight?
You know how to use the internet. Look these things up yourself. Until you do, you’ve got nothing but your smug attitude.
Okay, so the store owner didn’t call the police?
What the hell is going on?
The police covering their ass, obviously. That’s what’s been going on from the first.
I did notice that there was no box of cigars lying in the street. Just a body.
Oh Geezer:
White flight is to blame, the root of the problem. That’s the explanation for the race charged rage. Right. That’s one of those things contributing to last straw. Tell me you’re embarrassed that this is your best articulation.
And your other retort: There is very little money in civil rights law. Money!!! I though civil rights cases, whether privately or publically funded, sought to enforce change and not to strip cash from the offenders. If money is the problem, then I suspect the good crackers in Ferguson can throw some the right way. Maybe it goes away cheap. That’s your preferred explanation for why Ferguson’s police and elected officials are so out of whack with the population.
You got it all figured out. Simply parrot the talking heads. Don’t ask questions. Absolutely don’t answer questions. Sound like Limbaugh’s ditto heads.
Might be smug but surely not a practicing dolt.
Done here. The foolishness quotient is beyond tolerable.
You could read this for another reason. I’ve posted links in this thread in response to your questions/claims. Did you read them?
“White flight is to blame, the root of the problem.’
No, you idiot, it’s why there are so many white officials and a nearly all-white police force. Look it up.
Fuck off, and don’t let the door hit you in your ass. You wouldn’t want more brain damage than you already have.
Of course he didn’t. He’s formed his opinion, and facts would only get in the way.
You know he’s lying because he claims he would be angry at his own dead child instead of the police. I didn’t know you could build a tower that high out of bullshit.
Yeah, I’m beginning to suspect Mr. “let’s not rush to judgement” has already passed judgement on the Ferguson community. (And what’s up with him throwing the term cracker around?) After all, a 30 second Google search could have answered his questions on why the elected officials of Ferguson look so different from the population and his claim of “black on black” crime.
Yeah, I’m open to criticism about rushing to judgment but bloody fucking hell… some of that shit was inanity. Ultimately there is a very large portion of Americans who are police apologists. This is generally solely because they are affluent white people. Their contact with police is very, very rare. They don’t get hassled, roughed-up and scrutinized for being “suspicious” nearly every day.
I don’t blame the protesters for protesting, rioters for rioting or the looters for looting.
As an ex-NYC cop told me earlier today, the way police approach and address middle-class whites vs. how they approach lower-class blacks are nothing alike. Too many whites don’t realize that, and they don’t seem to want to hear about it, either.
They have some kind of cognitive disorder that prevents them from understanding that their experiences are not universal. Everyone starts out with this perception in early childhood – but our highly coddled whites never grow out of it. Probably because out society does not require them to grow out of it.
Exactly. Why would they grow out of something that benefits them? This system benefits them, so much so they’d even say something like this: “If my son charged a police officer over a jaywalking incident and died, I’d be a hell of a lot angrier with him for it than with the police officer.” That’s an amazing statement.
It is also 100% bullshit. Talk about coddled.
I’m sure shirtless, inked-up white guys also get hassled by the cops more than white, middle-aged, middle-class people do, too, and back in the day you could get hassled for driving while long-haired. Being middle-class or above definitely helps — doesn’t make you immune, but it helps immensely.
But even black executives in professional attire aren’t immune from greater suspicion by law enforcement. Remember the baseball broadcaster Joe Morgan getting roughed up in an airport some years back? It wasn’t unique. Every professional black man has stories of not being able to hail a cab in DC or NYC, or of being stopped for a “non-functional license-plate bulb” on the interstate.
Here’s how much white America doesn’t want to hear it: Remember the “Beer Summit”? Remember what prompted it: The police hassling an upper-middle-class black man trying to get into his own home. Remember how white America reacted? They. Don’t. Want. To. Hear. It.
At DSU when we’re covering the Bill of Rights, we discuss what you do and don’t do in scenarios like traffic stops, or a sidewalk stop-and-frisk, and how that relates to civil rights.
First, I note that the African-American population in my classes is about two-thirds female, because the odds are stacked against young black men even reaching a third-tier HBCU. But we always have “story time” because about half the black women and ALL the young black men have had personal experiences of being stopped, even harassed. My white and even my Latino students generally have nothing to compare it to.
Then, quite often, I have (white) guests on DSU campus who are (a) astounded at how well-dressed and polite all the African-American students are; but then (b) get really shaky when four or five young male athletes come swaggering by; and then (c) they get really confused when all the young male athletes stop and talk to the old white guy (me!). “I’d feel nervous around here all the time,” they tell me. “Don’t you worry?”
“About what? They’re my students.”
Geezer:
Twinkee the dusty colored bunny told me today that the cops treat white bunnies differently than spotted bunnies. The spotted bunnies don’t get harassed. He wishes he was a cat.
This kind of anecdotal “Johnny told me stuff” settles anything for you. Pinnacle of critical thinking you are.
If you’re off work now maybe you could send me that list of stuff you read over the weekend?
It is easy for you to sneer at this, since you are waiting for your narratives to be confirmed. No introspection, no empathy, certainly no thinking — just stuck in your space waiting for someone to confirm for you that Brown deserved all of the force directed at him:
This kind of anecdotal “Johnny told me stuff” settles anything for you. Pinnacle of critical thinking you are.
So how about some data:
Mother Jones corrals a bunch of the available data
Not that you’ll read that, either.
Aint’s Taking it Any More-
You’re delusional. Please spend some time in Wilmington. Reading about stuff you haven’t experienced is one thing. Living it is quite another. I’m white. I’ve spent some time in the ‘hood. I would never claim to know what it’s like to be black.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBjWHfBHKos
Sorry, Sporto. You’re nowhere near the top of my priority list. Do your own homework. I don’t give a shit what you think, I’ll just mock you when you post it here. You want to be ignorant, be my guest.
This isn’t an argument, properly speaking. It’s you parading your asshole attitude around. There are no facts about the context that matter to you because you want to focus on nothing but the incident. That makes you part of the problem.
“Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life.”
Dean Wormser
Faber College (1962)
Advice you ought to take yourself.
Wow. A Animal House quote. Top fucking drawer, brother. I quote Sarte, you quote a frat/stoner film…
You have one idea. You’re entitled to it. It clearly has no relevance to the real world and that’s fine. But fact is you’re a dirty police apologist and a victim blamer. Maybe your daughter or wife deserved to be raped. How short was her skirt? Had she been drinking?
You extrapolate your narrow experience across the entire spectrum and it’s wrong. I’m not mad at you. I pity you. There’s so many complicated things happening in the world and I doubt you understand any of them. It must be incredibly scary when conversing with people of regular intellect or, heaven forbid, people in academia.
I feel for you brother.
DG:
You quoted Sartre. That shows that you must know what is going on in Ferguson. So smart.
Do you have any understanding why Sartre’s by “any means necessary” piece is so out of line here? Do you understand the context and meaning or was cutting and pasting the best anyone should expect?
I quote Animal House because it befits the measure of adult thinking reflected here.
For the record: I never apologized for police conduct, I never criticized Mr. Brown, I’m a white guy that’s lived all over the world, I don’t live the black experience and never tried to pretend otherwise, and believes if wrong was done then let the full consequences fall where they should.
The only thing I advocated – the only thing – was that before the good and bad citizens of Ferguson kill or burn down the city, that they wait to understand what happened. Most of what any us think we know was delivered by the press. There are conflicting accounts from the press. Some support an excessive use of police force, others suggest a cop acting in self defense. I’ve haven’t the slightest idea which one survives scrutiny.
Don’t feel for me brother. My error was suggesting we keep an open mind in a crowd full of happily close minded, idea churners looking to join a lynch mob simply because they wanted to believe the worst happened.
Nice strawman
That’s the best you can do.
Not even a profanity laced insult.
Yep, gotta break this comment down – skipping the Sartre/Animal House stuff. I’ll let Dorian address that.
“For the record: I never apologized for police conduct, I never criticized Mr. Brown, I’m a white guy that’s lived all over the world, I don’t live the black experience and never tried to pretend otherwise, and believes if wrong was done then let the full consequences fall where they should.”
You say you don’t live the black experience and have never tried to pretend otherwise. Okay, then explain this comment (from above) of yours:
“I am critical of the protestors. Not their right to protest. Not their anger. But their motivation. Fools motivated by the hate ingrained in race relations in this country. Maybe they could protest the thousands of black men killed by other black men – surely a problem taking more lives.”
See? You do seem to “know” the protesters’ motivation. What you don’t seem to know is that the “black on black” meme is a conservative talking point. Did you even read the link I posted discounting this BS parroting of yours? If you had, you would have acknowledged that talking point is nonsense and not based in fact.
Moving on…
“The only thing I advocated – the only thing – was that before the good and bad citizens of Ferguson kill or burn down the city, that they wait to understand what happened. Most of what any us think we know was delivered by the press. There are conflicting accounts from the press. Some support an excessive use of police force, others suggest a cop acting in self defense. I’ve haven’t the slightest idea which one survives scrutiny.”
Lots to deal with here.
1. “The only thing I advocated – the only thing – was that before the good and bad citizens of Ferguson kill or burn down the city, that they wait to understand what happened.
Does that statement strike you as neutral. Sure looks slanted to me.
2. “Most of what any us think we know was delivered by the press.”
Not true. The store video, the statement that Brown had pot in his system came from the police/medical examiner. Those two things played a major part in what’s going on. To ignore those things reveal bias.
And when it comes to your “I’m the only one holding judgement and dealing with the facts” mantra. Please go reread “The Disgrace of Ferguson” thread. I’ll recap, since I’m not sure you click on links.
On the other Ferguson thread, when I said, multiple times, that I didn’t know what happened and asked another commenter to prove his statement that “He was shot because he assaulted a cop and grabbed for his weapon.” you called me out saying, “Not sticking up for anyone BUT disprove the statement.”
I replied, “But… there is no proof. Why would you ask me to disprove something when no one knows what happened yet? Xyz’s scenario isn’t based on known facts.”
Your response… “Pandora: Simply responding to your backhand of XYZ when you told him to “Prove that statement.””
So yeah, I’m questioning your “neutrality” on this issue.
Pandora – Stop this senseless rationality at once! ATIAM is just humbly asking for us to withhold judgment and opinion until we all have time to digest the comprehensive joint Congressional committee report on this incident. I expect publication sometime in late 2015.
Until then we can just sit peacefully with fingers crossed and hope the First Cavalry Division…whoops, I mean local police departments don’t beat down and/or murder anymore unarmed black guys. I mean ‘these people’ do get so aggressive when hassled by the SEALS… I mean soldiers… damn, I mean cops. Please pardon me. Who can tell the difference these days?
Any views expressed before then are simply ignorant and irresponsible.
LOL!
On a personal note… can you email me Dorain? (pandora@delawareliberal.net)
Not worth addressing you anymore; I’ll second what Pandora said. Troll feeding time is over.
Sure don’t let facts, known, presumed or unknown, get in the way of a good, self-righteous rant. Too bothersome for the oracle to become leaned.
Guys like you make up the shit pile that defines what is wrong with this country. Don’t respond – no surprise. Just scream but say nothing. Insult rather than respect.
That you won’t respond is a good thing. Maybe intelligent conversation can now begin.
Interesting how a person can’t see their own biases – even when typed out.
I don’t really expect ATIAM to address my points since, well, he never does.
See? I was correct.
You don’t seem to get it, fella. I’m not interested in trying to convince a resistant asshole of the truth as other people see it. You’re entitled to your ignorant opinion, and to express it. I really don’t care if you change your mind. I don’t care if you “win” an argument on the internets. It changes nothing. The truth is still the truth, you’re still ignorant by choice — not stupid, ignorant — and I know better than to piss up that rainpipe.
Sure don’t let facts, known, presumed or unknown, get in the way of a good, self-righteous rant.
This is the sicking your fingers in your ears and screaming LALALALALALALALALA part.
Which is sorta funny, because what ATIAM wrote here rather precisely describes his own position here. Precisely.
DG
Hyper-exaggerating as a means of making a point is a useful rhetorical tactic. Doing it out of thin air reveals an unflattering quality – the writer is clueless.
Wait for Congress to issue a report – yep that’s what I said and yes that can be reasonably inferred. Do point me where that was said or can be inferred? Please.
Send out the cops to beat unhelpful witnesses into shape – said that as well. If you’re going to exaggerate for emphasis, at least have a anchor to time down your point.
As much as any white guy can, I understand that black men have markedly different encounters with police than white people. Got it. I don’t doubt for a moment that its very likely that a racists cop shot and killed Mr. Brown solely because he was black. Got it.
Where you lose me is, understanding those social dynamics outside Mr. Brown’s death, how do you know that is what happened? How do you reach the conclusion that those dynamics explain why Mr. Ferguson died?
Still not responding to my points. Yep, gonna keep pointing this out.
One more thing…
ATIAM, can you show me where Dorian stated what happened between the police officer and Mike Brown? I’m not seeing it.
Pandora:
To the best of my recollection DG never described the actual event.
He, and too many others, however, express a point of view that accepts as truth a story line predicated on a racist cop inexplicably gunning down an unarmed black man. From that DG’s remarks flow.
“He, and too many others, however, express a point of view that accepts as truth a story line predicated on a racist cop inexplicably gunning down an unarmed black man. From that DG’s remarks flow.”
Prove that. And name the “others”
And while you’re at it… could you please address my comment. Thanks.
While on a humanitarian trip to India, Matt Haley a local Sussex County restaurateur passed away as a result of a motorcycle accident. He owned many restaurants in the area. He was well known, loved, and respected by many around here in Sussex County. TNJ has an excellent write up about his personal and professional accomplishments: http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/local/2014/08/20/james-beard-winner-matt-haley-has-died/14332273/
The only Delawarean to win the James Beard Humanitarian Award, he will be sorely missed by many.