Vaccinations Should No Longer Be Optional
The anti-vax crowd is really an anti-science religion. It’s 100% based on faith, not fact. And it’s time to stop indulging stupid.
Vaccination is about public health, and everyone should have to be vaccinated – unless a qualified doctor says otherwise. If you refuse to vaccinate then you should not be allowed out in public. Your right to not vaccinate ends the second you go outside… perhaps to Disneyland?
And people who vaccinate are getting upset with the public health hazards known as anti-vaxxers. Their right to not vaccinate ends the second their irresponsible decision impacts (infects) others. This isn’t about personal choice. You want to feed your kid a vegan diet? Fine. You want to not vaccinate your kid and then send them to school, take them to the doctor’s office, go to Disneyland? Not fine.
This example shows how we do this very thing when it comes to drunk driving.
Take drunk driving.
People may have their own beliefs around how and when they drink alcohol – but once they run the risk of harming others, it really is in the state’s interest to start legislating rules. How different is that from a preventable outbreak?
“If you choose not to vaccinate your child, and your child infects mine and harms or kills them, I believe you ought be held liable for your choice just as we would do for a drunk driver,” Caplan argued.
Your choice. Your responsibility.
And I’m reaching the point where, if an infant (one too young to vaccinate), or an immunosuppressed person, or a vaccinated person whose vaccination didn’t take comes down with the measles then they should be able to sue. Because I’m not sure what else will get through to these anti-vaxxers. Lord knows, facts don’t.
Brendan Nyhan, an excellent political scientist at Dartmouth University, has done pathbreaking research into convincing anti-vaxxers to back off their flawed ideas.
His team’s disturbing findings: Trying to educate anti-vaccine parents only forces them to retreat further into their shell. Attempting to correct false beliefs about vaccines “may be especially likely to be counterproductive,” Nyhan dryly notes.
For instance, “when [researchers] gave evidence that vaccines aren’t linked to autism, that actually made parents who were already skittish about vaccines less likely to get their child one in the future,” Dr. Aaron Carroll writes at The Incidental Economist, summarizing Nyhan’s research. “When they told a dramatic story about an infant in danger because he wasn’t immunized, it increased parents’ beliefs that vaccines had serious side effects.”
“Basically, it was all depressing.”
This is why the anti-vaccination movement is a religion. They are exactly like climate change deniers – long on beliefs, zero facts. So what can we do to protect ourselves? Well…
So talking to anti-vaxxers might not work. Public shame might not work. What might?
Turn to the law.
“The real goal [of our paper] — and this is so often difficult in public health — is to utilize the law to affect the right public health changes,” Nicholas Diamond said.
“Basic tort law or criminal law can both be tools to affect positive public health changes.”
Another way to put that: What might encourage some parents to finally get over their fear of vaccines?
Fear of lawsuits.
Sad, but true. And this case is striking:
A California woman said anti-vaxxers endangered her baby’s life and forced the 6-month-old girl into a month-long quarantine.
Jennifer Simon took her daughter, Livia, to the doctor Jan. 2 because she had a cold, and the pediatrician’s office called two days later to report that an unvaccinated child with measles had been there the same day.
[…]
She was ordered into a 28-day quarantine in case she became the 53rd person to contract measles in connection with the Disneyland outbreak.
Eight other infants are in quarantine in Alameda County, where Simon lives.
Simon said she was angry that her child’s life was endangered because of another parent’s “personal choice.”
“Their choice endangered my child,” she said.
28 eight days. This couple missed work and had to fly her mother in to take care of the infant. Who should pay for that? If I were having children today my first question to a pediatrician (before I stepped into their office) would be… Do you treat unvaccinated patients? If their answer was “yes” I wouldn’t use them.
And here’s the big question: “What happens if a child dies because some parents decided not to vaccinate their own kid?” Good question, because it’s only a matter of time.
Tags: Vaccination
SOME vaccinations should be mandatory…
I’m surprised to learn that they aren’t mandatory, unless there is a medical reason. I thought that you had to provide proof of vaccination in order to start school each year.
Agree 100%. The Onion has been nailing this:
“The bottom line is that I’m this child’s mother, and I know what’s best. End of story. Politicians, pharmaceutical companies—they don’t know the specific circumstances that made me decide to breathe new life into a viral infection that scientists and the nation at large celebrated stamping out roughly a century ago. It seems like all they care about is following unexamined old rules, injecting chemicals into our kids, preventing ghastly illnesses that used to ravage millions and have since been erased from storming back and wreaking mass havoc on a national scale, and making a buck. Should we really be listening to them and not our own hearts?”
Cassandra, parents can ask for an exemption based on personal beliefs. You know… I’m not getting my kid vaccinated because I believe in Jenny McCarthy.
Sadly, the hobby lobby decision has shown that personal belief trumps public well-being every time. It is my personal belief that anti vaxers should be forcibly placed in hamster bubbles
if Jenny Mccarthy wants to have a kid with me…she can allow it to go unvaccinated
While it may be difficult to identify the source of an infection, those with children at risk (and even adults) should consider litigation when such instances arise. If you start suing anit vaxxers, they will soon recognize that their freedoms have limits and those limits are when their actions create a public health risk. Don’t want to vaccinate your child, home school them; don’t let them play in public parks; and in general keep them isolated from the rest of society. In fact; even the parents should be kept isolated.
SOME vaccinations should be mandatory. And they should also be FREE. Where it gets murky Pandora are what some people see as “vaccinations” as in typical public health issues of measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, polio and then what the state has chosen to add irrespective of risk, and large amounts of empirical data.
I vaccinate my kids absolutely for those usual childhood diseases that can have devastating tolls. What I won’t “vaccinate” for is this crap they want to sell parents on with the HPV vaccine. Oh and chickenpox. We are a first world country and our incidence of complicated chickenpox as anything more than an inconvenience weighs more heavily on me to get full immunity by exposure than the goofs who went full blast ahead with mandating that one for school, only to find out “Surprise!” the vaccination isn’t lifetime—only to be repeated again later, and then…….No thanks, give me the 8 yo home with chicken pox now having full immunity, over a 23 year old finding out “whoops–I didn’t keep up with the booster!”. Adults with chickenpox are really sick. Just get the darn disease, and get it over with!!
And cass it varies by state with mandatory shots. Delaware only allows a medical exemption. Penna. still allows a personal belief in some situations (private vs. public school)–but I was on the receiving end in a Philadelphia hospital in the late 70s when the polio outbreak happened amongst the Amish children, and the state went in…….
The other sticking point for me is the varying list of “mandatory”. Most folks don’t know, what’s mandatory here isn’t mandatory across state lines and vice versa. While we can all pretty much agree with my earlier list…it’s the “add ons” some states have helped themselves to in creating part of this immunization nightmare. Stick with the basics, and let the parents decide if they really want you to be scrambling their kids immune system or whatever with the other hype being promoted by Big Pharma.
Pandora you are a radical. While you are right about vaccines, the idea that your rights end because you go out in public is insane. By going out in public YOU are taking the assumed risk just as you are with colds or the flu. Judging by your extremist posts I would not be surprised if you don’t get out much anyway.
No anon, she’s a mother. So let’s just take the immunization and rights thing out of the equation. A pediatrician will treat kids who aren’t vaccinated for some very good reasons, regardless of others in the practice. They certainly have children who can’t be vaccinated on the same timetable because perhaps of illness. Or in some instances, some infants/children defy medical odds and contract a disease BEFORE it was even considered prudent to have them vaccinated, or the assumption a nursing child has extended immunity. Then we have the children in the state’s care who never started any series of shots because of parental neglect and one more reason they are in the state’s care. Bottom line–all pediatrician offices have unvaccinated children, not meeting MINIMAL standards. The whole discussion of just a parent outright refusing vaccinations in total, generally avoids a pediatrician’s office for well-baby visits, and shows only when child is sick and won’t be vaccinated. Otherwise, they will be dogged with rationale and such–and will face a very rude awakening when trying to get into daycare or school. To the other extreme are parents WHO DO vaccinate for whatever is suggested, or the reccommendation. Chicken pox –the ol’ varicella vaccine, that’s now mandated—doesn’t prevent or erradicate the disease, as most parents erroneously assume. Instead, your kid may get a milder case, or maybe just one or two pox come out that might look like a couple of mosquito bites. Those kids are like 6 inch rattlesnakes in my view. Parents either knowingly, or unknowingly still try to bring them to daycare, or will still fly to Disneyworld (of course the pox is covered), because they didn’t know, or the kid isn’t that sick to stay home–but meanwhile they are JUST AS CONTAGIOUS, as a kid in full bloom. No thanks, Chickenpox Charlie needs to be out of circulation–I don’t care what deposit you are going to lose on your timeshare. That’s the sneaky one in the vaccination world I get angry about.
Via NYT:
Serious question: how can someone who supports abortion, because we recognize that we own our body, also believe that ownership of ourselves ends with vaccination? My response to any rebuttal would be: who decides the subjective standards of when self ownership applies or not? Allowing that subjective power over the right to choose is the same logic behind every crime against humanity; that one can force another to do something with their body.
While I understand agree about vaccinations, I see a much more sinister line of reasoning at play in this argument.
Well, one would imagine if they can afford to arrive for the Super Bowl, then certainly expense didn’t stand in the way of a measles vaccine–and if they chose in this day and age not to vaccinate……
Meanwhile, 7 cases in 3 counties in a border state that deals with public health concerns all the time with the transient/ undocumented guest (oh geez, did I get that PC this week) population, probably translates to one family with 3, one family with 2, and another family with one child affected because they haven’t had the chance to get the clinic shots prior to enrolling in school vs. some personal belief aversion that Arizona still permits. Just my thumbnail sketch of the reality…….but media will make this domestic Ebola for them!
Anon asks: Serious question: how can someone who supports abortion, because we recognize that we own our body, also believe that ownership of ourselves ends with vaccination?
Because abortion is not contagious.
Think of it this way, what if pregnancy was contagious and there was a vaccine? Would it be okay for an unvaccinated person to impregnate people against their will because they don’t believe in using the vaccine? What if you couldn’t get the vaccine until you were 18 (like the MMR age requirement of approx. 12 – 15 months old)? Would it be okay to risk pregnancy for those under 18? Or for those that the vaccine didn’t work? Or for people with cancer? And what if cancer was contagious?
“Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man’s nose begins.”
The problem with this anti-vax fad is it’s reaching its tipping point. The herd is thinning. This isn’t about individual rights unless the deliberately unvaccinated person quarantines themselves. If they don’t, then they’re making choices for other people.
I see where you’re coming from, but I humbly disagree because if you don’t want disease then you can get vaccinated or limit your chances of exposure. The burden is on the individual, not the collective. Women who don’t want to get pregnant take contraceptives instead of calling for the entire male population to use a male form of birth control.
I think pregnancy may be contagious though? I always hear guys saying she can catch the D.
The problem being that unvaxinated people present a danger to even people who are vaccinated
Then what’s the point of forcing vaccination if you’re saying it doesn’t protect you to begin with? That makes zero sense.
Actually, they present dangers to people that were able to rely on herd immunity, like babies or children suffering with other diseases. How shitty is it that some parent that is looking at a 50-50 chance of their child’s survival in cancer treatment gets derailed because Jenny McCarthy convinced some rube not to vaccinate their kid?
Anon, you do not understand how vaccines work. If you did you would have never typed this: “I see where you’re coming from, but I humbly disagree because if you don’t want disease then you can get vaccinated or limit your chances of exposure.”
Vaccines are not 100% effective. I believe the measles vaccine is approx. 95%/97% effective. Infants are not vaccinated until 12 – 15 months which makes them susceptible to disease. People with compromised immune systems are at risk, as well as people for whom the vaccine didn’t take. Where are their rights?
Not sure what generates the selfish mentality besides self righteous no one is telling me what to do mentality and convoluted religious distortions from mentally ill types
Damn individualistic capitalists. Socialists view vaccinations as a way to protect their society, rather than themselves: http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-01-29/what-sweden-can-teach-america-about-measles-vaccinations
Sure evolveDE–take a nation about the size of California, and regale us with our stinkin’ thinkin’ about vaccinations. The SMALL amount who might reject PALES in comparison to the many who arrive here, one way or another UNVACCINATED to start. Our turnstyle entry into this country is a whole issue alone, that Sweden hardly has to manage.
There was a time when international travel often required shots, and your passport proved it. Not anymore……and gee, we even have a notable number here without a passport. That’s America.
But of course the Obama administration gets a pass for forcing schools to forgo or lighten requirements applying to vaccinations for the wave of illegal immigrant children that flooded the border over the past year…..You guys are funny.
No shit. The long range plan is to kill off the whites with Ebola infected illegal immigrant children. Duh!
Hey, I’m not the one pushing for Orwellian style forced vaccinations. I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy.
From the Texas Observer:
On the bright side, FBH can add not understanding herd immunity to their not understanding climate science repertoire.
I get it now. We should only require proof of vaccinations from U.S. students.
How provincial of me not to realize that the vastly superior healthcare systems of Latin America should dictate that we negate regular protocol for them to enter U.S. schools.
Proof of vaccinations, or a waiver (ugh), is required of all students in schools and universities, so stop pretending we aren’t requiring proof.
Which diseases make the list? Which don’t?
Which diseases make the list? Which don’t?
Neither of us has the statistics handy, but that is a policy debate informed by science, not a pie-throwing contest.
How provincial of me not to realize that the vastly superior healthcare systems of Latin America should dictate that we negate regular protocol for them to enter U.S. schools.
It is a matter of public health priorities. Having some kids in school (who are probably vaccinated but lack proof) was judged to be less of a public risk than having all of them run the streets during school hours, and I agree. Unlike the children of wingnut anti-vaxers who were likely never vaccinated on principle.
The risk of course is mitigated by… herd immunity.
Red Clay: DTaP, Polio, MMR, Hep B, and Varicella seem to be the norm
Brandywine: DtaP, DTP or DT, OPV or IPV, MMR , Hep B,Varicella, Tuberculosis (TB) – Results from either a TB Risk Assessment or a Tuberculosis Test
University of Delaware: Go Here
You could, you know, look this info up yourself. I’m kinda surprised, given your comments, that you aren’t familiar with this.
“Climate science ” It just sounds important and carries so much more gravitas than just the plain old term “climatology”. I wish they called it that when I studied climatology.
I think now though, you can just refer to anything as “the science”. Isn’t that the new buzz word. Sort of like “investments” instead of spending, or just plain “smart” in front of anything….lol.
FBH…..SMH!
Spot on, BTW
Pandora dont be talkin at me about all them “universities” and “studies”.
Dont you know that Al Gore makes a billions dollars, paid to him in the form of cupcakes, every time someone says Global Warming?! What we need is more guns in doctors offices so if they try some flim-flam “science” on MY KID… I can use my Second Amendment solutions to make that Harvard Faculty Fruit give me some health advice i WANT to hear, dag-nubbt!
“Climate science ” It just sounds important and carries so much more gravitas than just the plain old term “climatology”.
The name change is one of the things that allow people like that UD geologist and climate-change denier David LeGates to claim to be an expert in the field.
I’ll extend you “climate observations”, or “climate analyses” but I’m not sold on everything in the grab bag that they’ve labeled as “science”
“Proof of vaccinations, or a waiver (ugh), is required of all students in schools and universities, so stop pretending we aren’t requiring proof.”
The point is that the “undocumented children” were not required to show proof of immunization.
honestly, Obama should know at this point not to publicly be in favor of anything truly important.
I keep wanting him to issue an executive order that eating yellow snow is bad, so i can enjoy watching the cast of Fox extol the health benefits of cold dog piss.
@Egg Yolk
The best term that they use is “on the right side of history”.
How do they know this? Do they have a time machine or something? I mean, how presumptuous can you get?
When you (re)WRITE the history, how hard could that possibly be?
“The name change is one of the things that allow people like that UD geologist and climate-change denier David LeGates to claim to be an expert in the field.”
Yeah, the “Climate Science” name sells better, and BTW, David LeGates is a Professor of Geography not Geology. It’s a common mistake.
I remember Legates’s face from some of my classes. I think he was the TA for Dr John Mather ( world renowned climatologists as well as Delaware state climatologist).
“The point is that the “undocumented children” were not required to show proof of immunization.”
Think about that for two seconds: If they are undocumented, how would they prove immunization — a document?
Furthermore, most kids in Central America are vaccinated, so you’ll have to take your xenophobia for a walk in a different park.
The title of this post is “Vaccinations Should No Longer Be Optional”. I didn’t give any opinion on this subject that would qualify as xenophobic. I was just pointing out that the same people here who don’t think vaccinations should be optional obviously give a pass to the Feds for forcing US public schools to forgo vaccination protocol for Latin American child refugees.
You invoke that “most kids in Central America are vaccinated” as your reasoning for giving them a pass on vaccination requirements?… Well, most kids in the US are also vaccinated, but are still required to be vaccinated before schools will let them enroll. I’m not sure that I follow your reasoning.
My reasoning is that undocumented people, by definition, don’t have documents. We know that US kids without such documentation are unvaccinated. We don’t know that about immigrants.
I got it. We can’t get documentation anyway, and since there is a chance that they could be vaccinated, we should bypass protocol so that they can matriculate into the school system without delay.
There is a probability, not just a chance.
If all Americans were vaccinated, unvaccinated foreigners wouldn’t be a problem, just as unvaccinated Americans aren’t a problem provided the vaccination rates are above 95%. Or do you not understand how herd immunity works?
well, he questions medical science, climate science…. basically mistrusts scientists because…. who knows why.. I’m guessing if FBH knew what the term “herd immunity” meant, he would still question it’s legitimacy. Its basically pointless to talk to FBH.
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/02/02/first-case-of-measles-confirmed-in-delaware/
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNND it’s here. Thank you, to heroes like Rand Paul, Jenny McCarthy and FBH for making this possible. You guys are the REAL Americans.
To be clear…..all Delaware schools DO require proof of immunizations (day cares now too BTW) for enrollment. What’s not perfect is, the “warnings” and “timeline” they give parents/guardians to get the immunizations complete. The kids still come to school, but the vaccinations can happen later.
And if you want to throw around Latin American countries have better success rates of vaccinating than the US–well that’s just fine. It’s easy to document who shows up for vaccines, and who shows up for school. Amazing numbers! And they live there. But those who are living in the margins of society, and getting out of the country–I don’t think a stop at the public health outpost was a priority. Been there, some of those countries don’t educate past the age of 10–do you really think they give a hang about about a booster DPT ? The reported phenom numbers are BECAUSE of UNICEF, and the various charities like ROTARY, Catholic Charities, etc. that are committed to providing vaccinations–especially measles. Otherwise, any coverage by their government was parceled out to city kids, and who showed up. They aren’t looking for children in villages, and mountaintop habitats the way the US would hunt ’em down.
And also to be clear, any parent who wants to offer–oh yes, my child is vaccinated, because I left such a great pro-active homeland (for all you folks who think a guest/visitor/undocumented student is being unfairly accused here), they absolutely have the option to have a titre blood test drawn to prove immunity. Gee, the United States isn’t all that bad. I remember I had one child, and older sister (parents dead) knew she remembered brother getting shots–by golly–he did–in a REFUGEE camp, as provided by the Swiss Red Cross. Amazing, to see that paperwork. Only had to add our specific Delaware combo.
Your bullying is amusing ben, but for the record, I’m not against vaccines, and why would I question the legitimacy of herd immunity ? I was in third grade too you know.
They don’t *bypass protocol*:
Google ALWAYS works, FBH. And I can’t believe that you think just making up an accusation to further your own prejudices somehow works over here.
To be on the safe side, all children are vaccinated during their short stay at processing facilities in Texas and Arizona
I should have known better tnan to take FBH’s claim at face value – lazy I guess. Thank you Cass for bringing it back to reality-based.
This is hilarious. I point out the hypocrisy of believing that everyone should receive vaccinations, while simultaneously supporting the current administrations’ actions of forcing schools to waive vaccination protocols to accommodate undocumented students, and all you all can come back with is that I don’t know what herd immunity is.
The fact that you guys would think that the term “herd immunity” is some kind of advanced vocabulary makes me smile….. Check that… I think it’s the Dogfish Head Palo Santo Marron making me smile.
Now to really throw you a wrench……anybody in the military post 1963 thru ??? who DID get a measles vaccine? Surprise! If you weren’t notified, or didn’t get the memo “suggesting” re-innoculation due to some snafu……and it “might” have just not taken……just sayin’ from my memory of the early 90s in dealing with that. YOU may still be “the risk” :).
And since we’re on the topic of mandatory…..oh please chime in here Pandora. A new rising trend we’re seeing are mothers in the delivery room, who are so enlightened they are refusing the standard ointment placed across babies’ eyes at birth to prevent blindness from any chance of gonnorrheal transfer, should it be present. A simple process–HUGE BENEFIT–especially since that STD isn’t so symptomatic for a female, that baby at supreme risk is unequivocally mitigated to about zippo risk. So mama says no to ointment, but sure go ahead and prick my baby’s heel every 4 hours for a blood sugar, because it weighed a non-symptomatic 9 pounds after 3 sticks, and they just keep going……….see that, keep smoking and keep your baby’s weight down!!!
Wait… what? Parents are refusing the eye ointment? What’s next, Joanne, anti-vaxxers demanding doctors and surgeons not sterilize their hands and equipment in the name of building up their immune system? These people terrify me.
How about a GOP Senator who wants to eliminate the requirement of food workers to wash their hands after using the bathroom?
It is remarkable to me that the 100 years or so of hard work to eliminate some of the causes and effects of some of our worst health problems are being dismantled because folks think that healthy communities are oppressive.
The first Grievance: He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.