Thursday Daily Delawhere [2.19.15]

Filed in Delaware by on February 19, 2015

The lovely downtown Bellefonte. Photo by xzmattzx.

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  1. Rusty Dils says:
    February 19, 2015 at 10:16 am

    I knew there was a “level headed” democrat out there. Here she is. Jason, maybe this is the type of new direction you are looking for in the democratic party, its called speaking the truth.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zmp9PANpI4#t=191

  2. ben says:
    February 19, 2015 at 10:24 am

    Rusty,
    if you follow your argument out to it’s logical conclusion, we must commit genocide on the Muslim people. you “win” a “war’ against an ideology by eliminating all the brains who follow it. It’s a monstrous idea. The Christians tried it in the Crusades and it didnt work out very well for anyone.
    You may be pushing for an apocalyptic was between Christians and “them”, but im glad our president isnt so blood thirsty.

  3. Dorian Gray says:
    February 19, 2015 at 11:19 am

    ben – I don’t believe that’s true. I think that ignoring the Islamic aspect of ISIS is a huge mistake. I’ve argued it here before and will continue to do so. I have been happy to see that my position is beginning to be expressed more widely (even if, for political reasons, the White House has to play these word games). See Graeme Wood in this month’s Atlantic for a detailed explanation:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

    I also agree with the president that we ARE NOT at war with Islam, but the idea that ISIS is not based on Islamic text and ancient Islamic beliefs is simply not true.

    Sophisticated thinkers (not Rusty Dils) should be able to understand the nuance here. ISIS is Islamic even as nearly every Muslim on the planet rejects their specific interpretation. We needn’t declare war on Muslims to defeat ISIS. We are not at war with Islam. However, until we’ll come to terms with the philosophical foundations of the Islamic State we have very little hope in defeating it.

    This doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the ways that US foreign policy has exacerbated the problem. We clearly have (over and over). Still, the fact remains, ISIS is based on an interptation of strict Islamic law. Whether 99.8% of the world’s Muslims agree is not relevant. There are only about 90,000 Assyrian Christians. Nobody says they aren’t Christians.

  4. Jason330 says:
    February 19, 2015 at 11:37 am

    ISIS would be the only beneficiary of a war against Islam.

  5. Dorian Gray says:
    February 19, 2015 at 12:00 pm

    I don’t know about that. I’m always skeptical of clever political slogans that actually doesn’t mean much. However, like I said, there’s no need for a war with Islam. What’s needed is a clear understanding of how ISIS is based directly on fundementalist Islamic thought. If Obama keeps pretending ISIS isn’t Islamic we’re going to continue to spin our wheels.

  6. Jason330 says:
    February 19, 2015 at 12:07 pm

    I don’t think you and the President are very far away from each other. As Kareem said – ISIS is Islamic, like the KKK is Christian. The right wing is trying to score points off the fact that the President allows that “Islam” is not an enemy of the west or modernity.

  7. cassandra m says:
    February 19, 2015 at 12:11 pm

    but the idea that ISIS is not based on Islamic text and ancient Islamic beliefs is simply not true

    What is interesting to me is that people who think that they are sophisticated thinkers can’t actually demonstrate that. As in — match up ISIS’s organizing principles with text from the Koran (which has some items in common with the Bible) or supporting teaching literature. Sophisticated thinkers would actually get that attributing ISIS to Islam is a fool’s game — especially since it has more in common with fundamentalist ideology of all stripes than to Islam. But then, perhaps someone can explain to me how Christianity is NOT responsible for the KKK.

  8. Dorian Gray says:
    February 19, 2015 at 12:15 pm

    Yeah, I’m not interested at all in the political calculations and scoring points. I will say that ISIS is far more Islamic than the KKK is Christian (again, see G Wood), but I take your point. It’s a much, much more subtle argument than some stupid idea of War with Islam or West v East. Alas, most people haven’t the time or mental fitness to get around it.

  9. Dorian Gray says:
    February 19, 2015 at 12:17 pm

    So, Cass, you dismiss out of hand the 10,000 words Graeme Wood has written? Understanding the basis of ISIS is a fool’s game? That’s hilarious.

  10. cassandra m says:
    February 19, 2015 at 12:45 pm

    What’s hilarious is that you think that Wood is meant to be believed word for word. Sort of like some fundamentalist text. Woods article is interesting and even he starts out by saying that the sect of Islam that ISIS is working from is small and fundamentalist and medieval (which is my argument). And while he points to a couple of scary bits of the Koran to show how they justify some of their worse behavior, he has to ignore the parts of the Koran that call its followers to peace and consideration for other people. He also has to ignore the fact that the vast majority of Muslims don’t pay any attention to those bits of the Koran that he says make ISIS Islamic. He also has to ignore that like pretty much every other religion of the Book, it is the interpretation of that Book that you need to critique. Interpretations can be all over the place and those who need an interpretation the justifies the massacre of others will certainly get that. And we’re back to the KKK example. You have to condemn all Christians to condemn the KKK. Or you can reasonably decide that this group of Christians let their fear and anger get the best of them and ginned up a rationale from their book to justify their terrorism.

  11. Dorian Gray says:
    February 19, 2015 at 12:56 pm

    Wood absolutely does not ignore the fact that nearly all Muslims reject this interpretation of Islam. In fact he states it quite clearly. In fact so do I in the comments above. I’m starting to think you didn’t read the essay, so I’ll quote it for you.

    “Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do. But pretending that it isn’t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it.”

    I’d appreciate it if you’d stop saying people argue things they don’t argue. You’re so hung up on this idea.

    I’m not (and Wood doesn’t) condemn all Muslims. The justification ISIS uses is Islamic. Wood proves it. Nobody needs to condemn all Muslims to state that ISIS is in fact based on Islam.

  12. cassandra m says:
    February 19, 2015 at 1:04 pm

    He doesn’t prove it. And he does his handwaving at the fact that all Muslims reject the ISIS ideology, then proceeds to make the case that the ideology of the majority of Muslims is connected to ISIS’s beliefs. That’s too simple and too inadequate. If you can’t explain how some small sect that is intent on using its medieval interpretation of texts is somehow as Islamic as the majorities who want nothing to do with that medieval interpretation of that text, then your argument fails. Because as many Christians would tell you, the the worst of them doesn’t define them all.

  13. Geezer says:
    February 19, 2015 at 1:27 pm

    We’re talking past each other. The worst representatives of a movement do not define the movement, but it is inaccurate to say they have nothing to do with that movement.

    When you get to the level of saying “this represents Christianity, this does not represent Christianity,” you’re automatically putting words in other people’s mouths. The terrorists certainly think they are good Muslims, just as the Branch Davidians all thought they were good Christians. Who is to say what the “correct” interpretation is? No individual has the standing to proclaim what the “correct” interpretation of any religion is, or rather, to do so accurately.

    To illustrate that point, many conservative Catholics are in revolt against their Pope.

  14. Dorian Gray says:
    February 19, 2015 at 2:02 pm

    Neither Wood nor I state that the idealogy of the majority of Muslim is the basis of ISIS. That’s what you keep saying so that you can continue to argue with somebody. But that somebody isn’t me.

    You seem to think that since the majority reject the philosophy that’s the end of it and it isn’t Islamic. Like it’s democratic or something. It isn’t.

  15. mouse says:
    February 19, 2015 at 2:07 pm

    If the pope was a right wing fundamentalist preaching obsessions with women’s reproductive/sexual issues, the revolt among the conservatives wouldn’t exist and they would be attacking anyone who questioned it and condemn them to hell for questioning the infallible pope

  16. mouse says:
    February 19, 2015 at 2:08 pm

    The visceral based uneducated wing of the republican party wants to make it a religious war about Islam. Wonder what they get out of that besides united angry ignorance..

  17. mouse says:
    February 19, 2015 at 2:15 pm

    Aren’t there passages in the Bible that sanctions killing your own kids and selling them into slavery..Or murdering women who wear more than 1 fabric. If there was a christian terrorist cult killing kids and women, would we say they are based in Christianity?

  18. cassandra m says:
    February 19, 2015 at 2:46 pm

    Neither Wood nor I state that the idealogy of the majority of Muslim is the basis of ISIS.

    Apparently the sophistication of this argument is bypassing you. Because this is what I said:
    And he does his handwaving at the fact that all Muslims reject the ISIS ideology, then proceeds to make the case that the ideology of the majority of Muslims is connected to ISIS’s beliefs.

    There is Islamic and there is not-Islamic. Wood is not in a position to make that determination. Neither are you. Because for ISIS to be Islamic, you have to ignore that the massive numbers of Muslims who give no credence to what ISIS believes. In other words, you and Wood keep making ISIS the benchmark for Islamic. And it is not.

    No individual has the standing to proclaim what the “correct” interpretation of any religion is, or rather, to do so accurately.

    Except the Pope for Catholics. And before this Pope more liberal Catholics were in revolt against their Pope. And?

    ISIS calls itself Islamic and yet majorities of Muslims object to this. Insisting that ISIS is Islamic means that you speak for these Muslims and choose to make them all fruit of the poisoned tree. These Muslims do not want the twisted interpretation of ISIS to define them all, and here we have people working to do exactly that. Insisting on defining these people on terms (which is exactly what Wood does by ignoring the rest of the Koran and the practice of the millions of Muslims who have nothing to do with ISIS) they even reject is fundamentally racist. And insisting that Wood’s definition of Islamic is somehow more informed than those who actually are is how ISIS wins here.

  19. Dorian Gray says:
    February 19, 2015 at 3:14 pm

    I just speak for me just like the Muslims who reject ISIS philosophy speak only for themselves. You seem to think that there was some worldwide vote of Muslims and it was concluded that ISIS isn’t Islamic by a vote of 99% to 1%. You have very odd ideas about how religions work. There’s really no democratic process involved.

    And Wood isn’t ignoring those parts of the Koran. ISIS is ignoring those parts of the Koran. Ignoring bits and pieces of the holy texts doesn’t mean you aren’t part of the religion. If that were the case nobody would be any religion. That’s what religious people do. You’re making my argument for me.

    I pity your foolishness on this I sincerely do. I also like how I’m not allowed an opinion because “Muslims” already decided. Well thanks.

    Wood methodically lays out the exact Islamic tenets on which ISIS is based and somehow that doesn’t explain it because other Muslims follow other tenets or ignore those tenets or reject specific teachings… your argument is complete nonsense. Many Sunni say Shia are not Islamic. So are they or aren’t they? How did that vote come out? Are Assyrian Chrisitians or Jehovah’s Witnesses actually Christian? When was the vote tallied? What was the result? Are reformed Jews actually Jews, I wonder… I mean they ignore all sorts of stuff.

    The only reason we’re even having this discussion is because “liberals” don’t think it’s appropriate or politically expedient or whatever to call the thing what it is.

    Frankly, I couldn’t care less what you think because I reject the entire way you frame the question. It’s been made very clear what the Islamic basis for ISIS is. It’s in the book. The adherents believe it. That’s how religious faith works. It doesn’t matter what else is in the book because ever single religious person rejects or ignores something in there. That doesn’t prove anything.

  20. SussexAnon says:
    February 19, 2015 at 3:50 pm

    The problem lies not in whether or not ISIS is Islamic. The problem lies in the fact other Muslims don’t seem to be showing much interest in doing anything about ISIS. Actions speak louder than words. If only other Muslim nations would get off their asses and clean up their own sand box.

    Some nasty crap is being done in the name of Islam, even by the low bar of Islamic standards. The rest of the Muslim world should be on the forefront of this. Not us.

  21. mouse says:
    February 19, 2015 at 4:15 pm

    Notice how important it is to the hateful uneducated “Christian” rubes on talk radio and Fox news to frame this in some sort of apocalyptic war of the world religions? Damn freaks would expode an atomic bomb to facilitate their religious farirytales

  22. Rusty Dils says:
    February 19, 2015 at 11:09 pm

    Sussexanon, was it up to us to lead in stoping the Nazis?

  23. SussexAnon says:
    February 20, 2015 at 3:21 am

    Do I really need to explain the ways ISIS is not anything at all like the Nazis?

  24. cassandra m says:
    February 20, 2015 at 12:56 pm

    Many Sunni say Shia are not Islamic. So are they or aren’t they? How did that vote come out? Are Assyrian Chrisitians or Jehovah’s Witnesses actually Christian? When was the vote tallied? What was the result? Are reformed Jews actually Jews, I wonder… I mean they ignore all sorts of stuff.

    See, here is where you continue to showcase your ignorance. Many Sunni do NOT say that Shia are not Islamic. The ones making that case are the extremist Sunnis. And the tension between Sunnis and Shia in the Middle East are more political than they are religious. Which is why Sunnis were mostly on the run after Saddam Hussein fell in Iraq. Who is it trying to claim that Jehovahs Witnesses are not Christian? That is a fairly rare thing. As is the question of whether Reform Jews are really Jews. The only folks I’ve ever heard work at that argument belong to fairly extreme Jewish sects. But that’s the point — we accept that Jews are who they say they are and we don’t question whether their Jewishness is the source of their extremism. No one questions Christianity when extremist Christians murder doctors who provide abortions. These folks are allowed to define their identity and their religion and not have people like you or Wood explain how their religion is the source of that extremism.

    If letting Muslims define themselves without scared white guys trying to explain how their religion makes a segment of them extremists, then I don’t mind being politically correct on this.

  25. Geezer says:
    February 20, 2015 at 1:37 pm

    OK, substitute “Mormon” for “Jehovah’s Witnesses” if you prefer, because plenty of fundamentalist Christians consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints a cult, even though it has “Jesus Christ” right there in the name.

    I have to agree here with Dorian: You apparently are taking literally the notion that “They aren’t Muslim” when what is meant is “That’s not what Islam means to most Muslims.”

    Lots of Christians disagree with the murder of abortion providers, and they might say “those people don’t represent Christianity,” but to claim they aren’t Christian is absurd on its face. That’s why I think we’re talking past each other.

    Or maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you value your political correctness so highly that you’ll make, and believe, that which clearly is absurd.

  26. Dorian Gray says:
    February 20, 2015 at 1:44 pm

    That’s OK because even feminist Muslims say it:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/20/will-it-take-the-end-of-the-world-for-obama-to-recognize-isis.html

    “After spending about 200 hours combined over the last few weeks, analyzing every word and symbol in the burning video of the Jordanian Air Force pilot and the execution video of the Coptic Christians, we can tell you that both videos reveal Islamic State strategists, propagandists and recruiters are very much grounded in a logical interpretation of the Quran, the hadith, or sayings and traditions of the prophet Muhammad, and fatwa, or religious rulings.”

  27. Dorian Gray says:
    February 20, 2015 at 2:11 pm

    Oh, and again, I’m not questioning Muslims about their personal faith. I think I’ve said before that I have very close relationships with many Muslims. (I wrote a letter to the News Journal editorial board which it published defending my friends after their Mosque in Newark was vandalized a year or so ago.) I play cricket with these guys and socialize with them and work closely with them as colleagues. I don’t “blame” them for anything. That would indeed be outrageous.

    But the fact remains that Islamic State ideology is in fact Islamic in a similar way Pentecostal snake handlers are technically Christian. Unfortunately we have no nomenclature for it presently like with do with the hundreds of diverse Christian groups.

    You have to keep up this charade so that people don’t get offended or so we aren’t misunderstood by bigots and Islamophobes. But as described again today in the Daily Beast there is solid theological reasons for IS to believe and to do what they actually believe and do.

    Also, I’m not scared of shit. If you think my position comes from a place of fear I can tell you that you are sorely mistaken.

  28. Geezer says:
    February 20, 2015 at 2:23 pm

    “we don’t question whether their Jewishness is the source of their extremism.”

    You’re right, I don’t. I just assume that the source of the extremism of right-wing Israelis who illegally settle the West Bank is pretty obviously their Jewishness — or, more long-windedly, their insistence that their holy book justifies their land grab. Similarly, ISIS claims their holy book justifies their brutality. It’s not as if they are basing their claims on something that is NOT in the holy book. You can refute their interpretation, but not that the verses they “misinterpret” aren’t in there.

  29. Dorian Gray says:
    February 20, 2015 at 2:41 pm

    …also note that the adjective “Jewish” is never cowardly omitted from the noun “Settler” in the description. Because we know that those illegally annexing land in the West Bank of Palestine are in fact Jewish. Other types of Jews know they’re Jews. We know they’re Jews. It would be farcical if we all agreed to drop the first bit and pretend they weren’t Jews or that their ideas didn’t come from the book. Most Jews don’t agree with them, but nobody denies their land claims are made based on Judaism.

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