Do Men Really Trust And Believe Women?
Add this article, Men Just Don’t Trust Women – And It’s A Huge Problem, to another thing I find fascinating. The author admits that he basically doesn’t trust and believe things said by his wife. He downgrades the emotional importance she attaches to a problem. He states: “Generally speaking, we (men) do not believe things when they’re told to us by women.”
Panama and I were talking about the Rolling Stone story controversy. It eventually segued to Cosby, which then segued into a realization that there’s a common thread in each of these types of stories and the tenor of the conversations surrounding them.
Trust. Well, the lack thereof. Generally speaking, we (men) do not believe things when they’re told to us by women.
[…]
This conversation is how, after five months of marriage, eight months of being engaged, and another year of whatever the hell we were doing before we got engaged, I realized I don’t trust my wife.
[…]
But you know what I don’t really trust? What I’ve never actually trusted with any women I’ve been with? Her feelings.
If she approaches me pissed about something, my first reaction is “What’s wrong?”
My typical second reaction? Before she even gets the opportunity to tell me what’s wrong? “She’s probably overreacting.”
My typical third reaction? After she expresses what’s wrong? “Ok. I hear what you’re saying, and I’ll help. But whatever you’re upset about probably really isn’t that serious.”
I’m both smart and sane, so I don’t actually say any of this aloud. But I am often thinking it. Until she convinces me otherwise, I assume that her emotional reaction to a situation is disproportionate to my opinion of what level of emotional reaction the situation calls for. Basically, if she’s on eight, I assume the situation is really a six.
I found myself nodding my head in agreement through his article because I have dealt with the situation he mentions. My husband and I go through the same thing. Full disclosure: I am the one in our relationship who feels more strongly about things (I am a blogger! And bloggers feel things strongly). I have overreacted, but he has under-reacted. I will say that a lot of my overreactions were due to his treating my 6 situation like a 3 situation which then had me ramping it up to an 8. I’m wondering how common my situation is? Okay, I know a lot of women agree with me, but I’m curious how men feel about this article and my example.
This is part of the reason why it took an entire high school football team full of women for some of us to finally just consider that Bill Cosby might not be Cliff Huxtable. It’s how, despite hearing complaints about it from girlfriends, homegirls, cousins, wives, and classmates, so many of us refused to believe how serious street harassment can be until we saw it with our own eyes. It’s why we needed to see actual video evidence before believing the things women had been saying for years about R. Kelly.
There’s an obvious parallel here with the way (many) men typically regard women’s feelings and the way (many) Whites typically regard the feelings of non-Whites. It seems like every other day I’m reading about a new poll or study showing that (many) Whites don’t believe anything Black people say about anything race/racism-related until they see it with their own eyes. Personal accounts and expressions of feelings are rationalized away; only “facts” that have been carefully vetted and verified by other Whites and certain “acceptable” Blacks are to be believed.
So, men of DL, do you do this with women? Do you believe and trust women without readjusting their outrage meter?
Tags: Gender, Women's Issues
This would not be an issue if we lived on planet Vulcan. Every statement by every man, woman and child could be taken at face value, and we’d never have to interpret shades of meaning by bringing in context, nonverbal communication and emotions.
We live in Earth, however, so every piece of communication operates on multiple levels. And every human needs to employ whatever tools he or she may have to make good guesses about what is being communicated. Some people are really good at making these guesses and some aren’t. The only tool this guy seems to admit to having in his tool box is a discounting tool. If he has normal healthy relationships, he probably has many more tools than that. it is just the tool he happens to be thinking about right now.
The three step reaction is the normal thought process of any rational person regardless of gender.
Rereading my post I see I worded my last sentence incorrectly. I had meant to change it before publishing, but forgot. It should read: do you see this done to women/are women trusted and believed? My wording was too personal. Sorry.
Well, Pandora, you know my missus. Bullshit like this doesn’t fly in our home. Of course some people find her standoffish, “snobby” and/or gruff. This is only because she stands up for herself, her ideas and her arguments. Personally I look seeing her mix it up. (Just happened the other day actually, but I won’t bore you with the details…)
Women really are in a very bad situation socially/culturally. This bleeds into relationships too. If you demand to be taken seriously you get called a bossy bitch. The alternative is to sit back and get your feelings and opinions given only partial credit or completely dismissed.
I’ve been very guilty of this over the years and have learnt quite a great deal from my wife. When you step back from the personal and attempt to look at the dynamic objectively it really is disgusting.
My wife asked me, “Did you find out if they have that thing?”
So, to DelLib readers I ask you the same question: Did you find out if THEY have that THING?
I expect you to know the answer.
I asked my wife the other day if she knew when Opening Day was for my son’s little leage baseball.
Her Response, “Yes”
Donviti: “When is it”
Her: “I don’t have it on me”
Donviti: “So you don’t know when it is?!”
Her: “Yes I do”
Donviti: “So when is it?”
Her: “I DON’T HAVE IT ON ME”
Donviti: “SO YOU DON’T KNOW WHEN IT IS!”
HER: “I JUST TOLD YOU I DO!!!”
So, to answer your headlines Question; If I can’t figure out my wife’s logic then how can I trust or believe her?
LOL!
First, I really like your wife, Dorian. Such a smart, interesting woman.
Second, DV… your wife was saying she knew and had the information but she wasn’t getting it for you right this second! 😉
And puck… if my husband, friend and child becomes upset I don’t go through a two or three step process before finding out what happened. If they’re upset, I’m concerned.
Interestingly (and relevant to this discussion) I read this article in Slate published yesterday. Women inmates working with historians to study the actual history of women’s prisons (and the abuse there) in the 19th century. At least now, 140-odd years later, they are beginning to be taken seriously…
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2015/03/indiana_women_s_prison_a_revisionist_history.html
@pandora – I’m calling horse feathers. Every Mom jnstantly evaluates the cry of her child and calibrates her reaction. It’s called “keeping your head while all about you are losing theirs” and it is considered a virtue for any gender.
There is a difference between being upset and cries. Being upset doesn’t necessarily mean the person listening to you has to keep their head – that’s more for a crisis, or potential crisis, situation which isn’t what we’re discussing. We aren’t discussing whether someone’s on fire.
If a person is upset I first find out what’s wrong. My second reaction isn’t to think they’re overreacting and then downgrade their feelings.
“Every Mom jnstantly evaluates the cry of her child and calibrates her reaction.”
Does every Dad do this? Society tends to portray Moms kissing boo boos all better and Dad’s saying, “suck it up.” (Less so now) But isn’t this a form of gender conditioning?
@dv – Knowing Opening Day is a man’s job, try to keep up 🙂
In Donviti’s example, he asked if she “knew.” She interpreted that as yes, she has the information, so she can look it up and know. If he had asked “Do you have the information” she would have been correct in answering yes.
Another example, my wife is talking about a perimeter misting system for insects. She only wants to do the perimeter of the yard, but not the back of the house. What she meant is that she wants to do 3 sides of the back yard. When someone says perimeter, I think they mean perimeter.
What I try to do is ask questions in a way that will get me the information, such as “When is Opening Day.” It sort of reminds me of Sheldon, when asked a question by someone (Penny I think). She asked “Can you …” He replied “Yes” but ultimately the question was “Will you” and the answer was “No.”
Language is imprecise because we have different definitions. But also because communication requires a transmitter and a receiver both of which must be using the same coding system. When you attach emotional modifiers to communication it makes language richer, but it does increase the difficulty of decoding the message.
My answer to the question is that if I am told by a woman that something occurred, I believe them. However, depending on the degree of emotional content associated with the message, it is impossible to immediately ascertain the significance, importance, and details of the event. It is only through continued dialogue (hopefully reducing the emotional content) that I can collect more details. In short, I think that significant emotional content garbles the message.
My wife knows that I am passionate and compassionate about a great many things, but she learned long ago that I try to be precise in communicating by eliminating the emotional content. It drives her nuts but her high degree of emotional content drives me nuts as well, so we’re both crazy.
so…
id like to address the bit about partners reacting differently to another partner’s issue…. NOT how SPORTZ GUYS!!!!! deal with allegations of rape against their team mates… i see them as 2 totally different ballparks… pun intended.
I think about how Soon-To-Be-Mrs-Keeping-Her-Own-Last-Name (fully supported without question by Mr Ben) and I interact. The things that happen in my brain arent saying “This broad is hysterical, calm her down so your man brain can think”….. rather…. ” she is upset and it makes me hurt, I wonder if i can help calm her down, then we can figure out a solution to this problem together”
please tell me if that is…… I suppose what you are talking about.
FTR, I overreact WAY more than she does about the dumbest of problems and her first reaction to to calm me down…. then evaluate the problem.
Again, only addressing how interactions between partners were brought up and NOT how men dismiss claims of rape against their fellow men. I have nothing to add to that conversation other than it is a problem and im again’ it.
First, the original writer is a prisoner of his inability to articulate his thoughts well. It’s not that he disbelieves or mistrusts his partner, he just thinks she gets too upset about problems. Those are very different situations.
If my wife tells me she ruined a blouse by getting a stain on it, I don’t disbelieve her about the stain — but I won’t declare defeat that easily (she does more of the laundry, but I am the acknowledged Stainmaster).
The reaction to a crisis is not determined by gender but by how you and your body react to a jolt of adrenaline. She goes into full-alert mode; I go calm. In truth, I think a marriage is better off for having one person with each reaction, because neither reaction is the right one for every situation.
Ben, your gratuitous mention of rape kinda godwins the thread…
“She goes into full-alert mode; I go calm. ”
Said it better than I did or could.
Perhaps I missed the point, or maybe it’s because I don’t have kids, but I assumed the question wasn’t about housework, child management, &c. I took the question to mean whether a man immediately takes less seriously a woman’s stated views on the new cancer treatments, or the newest Martin Amis novel, or the political and cultural problems in Europe, or micro-funding female owned businesses in Africa.
I’m not dissing laundry or little league schedules, I just didn’t think this was about spousal conflict resolution…
Do men discount a woman’s opinion on the hostilities in Ukraine or the performance of the Mayor of Wilmington simply because she’s a female? Do you take seriously your wife’s opinion about David Lynch’s films, for example, or the complete works of the German experimental rock band Can?
Better stated, fellas… Is your wife, without equivocation or caveat, your intellectual equal? So when she makes a statement on an issue it is treated with the same seriousness as if a man said it. Or are you dismissive of her ideas and generally patronizing?
I agree with how everyone is describing these situations. I would say that everyone has things they go into full-alert mode over. For example, I do not understand the range of emotions displayed watching sports – not playing, watching. There’s a ton of emotion there that I’ll never understand.
My husband is big on “precise” language and this does cause some problems. He knows what I mean, but looks at me like I’m nuts and won’t answer. (Yes, there are times my word choice doesn’t make sense, but sometimes it’ll be like, “Did you mean river?” when I said creek.)
Geezer, I think he’s saying he doesn’t trust/believe her feelings about situations she experiences.
And while a lot of these quirks get worked out in a personal relationship, they rear there heads a lot in professional relationships. Women still fight to be heard and not be interrupted – two ways in which some men make up their minds to dismiss women’s views before even hearing them.
Also, Dorian makes the point.
First off, I will spot every male who comments in this thread that he is not “the guy” in pandora’s quoted article. Therefore you don’t have to tell us why your relationship does or does not fall under that category. This is necessary because unless you do that, and free guys from the necessity of defending their own personal relationship conduct, then they can’t generalize on the topic. So let’s just start by including everybody here as an “enlightened” male who of course doesn’t discount women’s opinions. Hee hee.
That said, it’s very important to note that this doesn’t just happen–we are socialized to do it. I got this article from Nancy Willing’s FB post, and it blew me away because I have seen this play out in classrooms and playgrounds and in working groups all my life. Take a detour and read it.
http://www.alternet.org/gender/10-words-every-girl-should-learn#.VQ995Sp0HoY.facebook
(But remember, when you read it, that we all know YOU would never do such a thing.)
The sad reality is that this is an issue that men in society generally aren’t interested in fixing because it is (to use pandora’s often-seen metaphor) “a feature not a bug” in our culture. “Fixing it” or even “acknowledging it” requires people who have more power to (A) admit they have more power; and (B) to consider what happens if they think about actually ceding some of that power. And, yes, it is power.
Socialized male speech dominance
“(But remember, when you read it, that we all know YOU would never do such a thing.)”
Nope, I’ve done it. And guess what? I’ve had it done to me. Further, it would be more accurate to call it socialized speech dominance because honestly, men do it to men, women to men and women to women. It is just a domination strategy. It may be that it is done to women by men much more often but then men are often in a dominant position (or attempt to dominate). If one has a strong personality, it is a struggle to repress those inclinations and good leaders are able to do that. But is it exclusively a male characteristic? No. I’ve worked for many women in government and have been cut off at knees on numerous occasions. It’s not a gender thing. It’s a power thing.
My wife typically answers a different question then I ask..
@Dave
It is just a domination strategy. It may be that it is done to women by men much more often but then men are often in a dominant position (or attempt to dominate).
I think you both got and missed the point of the article. That fact that men are [more] often in a dominant position and that they more often attempt to dominate is effect not cause. The author argues that the pattern of significantly more boys being both conditioned to, and rewarded for, social dominance games, while at the same time significantly more girls are conditioned to, and rewarded for, the exact opposite, is a huge dynamic leading to what you observed.
I agree that the capacity for the behavior is not gender-linked (and nothing in the article suggested it was, by the way). But the capacity for either behavior is culturally constructed and thereby linked to gender, often at an age so young that most children have been “gifted” with it long before they have any real intellectual understanding of the concept of “gender.”
Great article, Steve, and excellent points, as always. I agree that men (#notallmen) are invested in this dynamic. In order for it to change they will have to give up something they like to do – even harder, are conditioned to do.
Dorian, the prison article was fascinating. It’s amazing how little history covers women’s daily lives.
This really isn’t an everybody does it to everybody thing. This applies to the different rules applied to men and women.
Last summer I conducted an experiment. Whenever a man interrupted me I kept talking. As he got louder, so did I. When he stopped talking, I stopped. The astounded look on his face was priceless. He then asked, “What is your problem? That was rude.” Ya think?
Here’s a funny story. I was at a cocktail party with people my husband works with. I like most of the people, but we aren’t friends – which means my husband and I watch what we say and how much wine we drink. One woman brought up the term “mansplaining”. She had just discovered the word and said it summed up her life experience. I smiled and nodded (was not going there at a work event!). A man – who wasn’t even part of the conversation – jumped in and asked, “What is mansplaining?” We told him. His response? “That happens to me all the time!” Mr. Pandora and I still laugh about that story.
I know plenty of women who will talk over anyone no matter what gender they are. It is a gender-neutral character flaw. Big voices and strong egos tend to ride roughshod over people with less physical dominance.
I too conducted a social experiment recently. When with a group at a social event, one of which was a loud dominant talker who happened to be a woman, whenever I was interrupted I fell silent. Eventually I had stopped speaking entirely. Nobody noticed, nobody asked what I thought about the topic, or if I was feeling OK. They were all too focused on Mrs. Loud Talker. I found some new friends elsewhere.
Male dominance in speech? All I’m going to say is it sure doesn’t help us sisters, when a supposed “woman in charge, or point person, or project leader” or whatever, opens her mouth and out comes this “helpless baby voice” who supposedly was to deliver the message. That I don’t “get”. Can’t support. And swear I have only heard this nuanced voice the last dozen years or so.
You know, I, and others, should have refrained from telling stories given the path this has gone down. I know anecdote doesn’t equal data. So, my bad.
The discussion is really about a systemic problem, but for some reason that problem can’t be discussed if a man has ever been interrupted. What’s also difficult is how quickly people want to skip over specific concerns of women and say we should all just be humanists. To me, that doesn’t address, or solve, the existing problems, nor does it come close to addressing, and fixing, a system that actually exists. It just glosses over it.
And we seem to understand the systemic problems in racism (altho, not really. What we understand is other people’s racism.) We point out the flaws in arguments that rely on reverse racism, “playing” the race card, and comments that claim that since they were once called a “cracker” by a black person it’s all equal. We shut that crap down.
But for some reason we don’t see the systemic problems that women face. I’m really trying to understand why that’s different. It’s like if someone experiences a woman interrupting, or speaking in a baby voice???, that cancels everything else out?
Sadly, I don’t think we can have this conversation, which means nothing will change – which I’m beginning to think is the point.
pandora–my point is, having been around women in leadership when they were glass ceiling breakers, a tone was never apparent in discussion or delivery. I want to know why in the 21st century a female in as equal or more powerful position has adopted this toddler voice? It may be anecdotal, but my husband agrees. Where, when I wasn’t paying attention did this vocal shift occur? It’s posturing in my book, just like a “darn glad to meetcha” at the car dealer–that I’m a bit perplexed in continually hearing.
Really? Do you actually think “baby talk” is a problem. My husband is top management in a major corporation. I called him and asked if he noticed women speaking in baby talk. His response, “Is this a joke question?”
That doesn’t mean you haven’t heard such talk, but it isn’t the problem – and it sure doesn’t represent the majority of women. It also comes across as an excuse to not listen or believe women because, you know, there were a few women who used baby talk. That’s the definition of throwing the baby out with the bath water! 🙂
Well Calgon, take me away! See ya at the water cooler P :). Guess, we ain’t solving this one.
Pandora, I could be off here…. but i feel like given the title, “do men really…..” you kind of got what you asked for… that is to say…..
“well, I DO” was a response that seems undesireable, but it’s the one that happened. It unintentionally got boiled down to ALL men and ALL women. What I , at least was trying to convey is, what you’re talking about has a such a complicated answer, the question isn’t really adequate. There is the dismissive nature in which the people who control power in the world, mostly men, treat women… that’s something systemic. But when you get into personal relationships…. every single one is different and has it’s own dynamic. I think it clouds the issue by implying… even unintentional, that they can be discussed at the same time. My humble thoughts…
Also, “baby talk…” are you talking about that vocal-fry voice? that sound, from a male or female…. irritates the crap out of me. I hear it most… and this is probably social conditioning, having Britney Spears shoved down their voicebox…… from younger Caucasian women., usually in line at Saxbys …. it isn’t a reason to deny them advancement, but personally, the noise is almost as bad as a smacky eater.
jesus christ, i just realized i said ‘you were asking for it” I regret the use of those words.
LOL, Ben! I didn’t take it that way.