Some Clinton/Sanders debate thoughts
– In a way, it was heart warming to hear two candidates for any office trying to out-progressive each other. I think you’d have to go all the back to Upton Sinclair’s 1920 run for US Congress to find something like that. And yet, it is a dumb argument that spirals down toward name calling and, as Sweet Brown once noted, “Ain’t nobody got time for that.”
– I liked the substance. If you are with Bernie, you know that everything flows from bringing more people into the political process and putting economic justice first. If you are with Sec. Clinton, you know that she is about evolution, not revolution. So there was nothing particularly new in the night’s remarks, but hearing the point, counterpoint was enlightening and interesting. To paraphrase Josh Marshall, you like Sanders if you think winning results from progressive Democratic values, and you like Clinton if you think Democratic progress results from winning.
– Secretary Clinton was more relaxed and seemed more fluid in many of her responses than usual. (Maybe being behind in New Hampshire gives her a little more freedom to swing with it?) Her calling Bernie out on his “artful smears” was handled well and I think perfectly appropriate.
– Sanders is a real gentleman. He frequently pointed out where he and Sec Clinton agree. Clinton was a little more in attack mode. Sander is also sharp as a tack and had a nice moment when he corrected Ralph Wigggum on just who was the spoiler in one of his early, unsuccessful, house races.
Anybody else watch?
I watched and feel grateful we have two amazing candidates. I would happily vote for either one.
But… I found myself leaning towards Hillary during the debate, mainly due to the foreign policy section. I need more than “I voted against the war” – which is a great thing in my book, just not the only thing.
I also find myself agreeing with Josh Marshall of TPM:
When the questions concern income inequality there’s no one better than Bernie (I cheered several times last night!), but he really needs to expand his platform. If he were to be the nominee he has a lot of holes he needs to fill. I worry when I envision the Presidential debate on foreign policy.
Good points.. Of course, he would have the luxury of running against either Trump or Cruz, both of whom are certified nutjobs on most issues, but especially foreign policy.
I thought both were great, but Josh Marshall is right. Bernie’s answers on foreign policy were Ben Carsonesque. A disaster. Bernie Sanders is great. A great Senator. A great Progressive. But he is not a President. And Marshall is right, as I have said to much derision around here, he will be absolutely destroyed in a general election.
You know what I want Bernie and Senator Warren doing, going around the country, and bankrolling and supporting progressive candidates so that this revolution actually takes place.
Below are the top 5 Google interest searches for each candidate in New Hampshire after last night’s debate. I have link to the article from the Washington Post below. I believe it’s telling when people are asking how old is Hillary Clinton and how much is she worth? Then on the other side of the coin in two different ways people are asking how can I see Bernie Sanders and donate money.
1. How old is Hillary Clinton?
1. Where will Bernie Sanders be speaking?
2. Who can beat Hillary?
2. Why Bernie Sanders?
3. Where is Hillary Clinton today?
3. Who would be Bernie Sanders’ VP?
4. Will Hillary win?
4. How to donate to Bernie Sanders?
5. How much is Hillary Clinton worth?
5. Where can I see Bernie Sanders in NH?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/02/04/bernie-sanders-won-the-debates-google-fight-in-more-ways-than-one/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_no-name%3Ahomepage%2Fstory
He definitely lacked the confidence and passion in his foreign policy answers that he displays when discussing income inequality. I too share the fear that the Republicans will hurt him bad if they go full throttle. On the other hand, his answers still were more substantive than Trump or Carson have ever been and I think his presence is a tremendous asset to Hillary, forcing her to explain herself and work for the nomination while trending leftward with her positions. We are blessed to have two fantastic candidates who are respectfully debating the issues that matter to us.
Bernie only’s weak point last night was foreign policy, but Hillary’s claim to accomplishments is very weak in that category. Almost all the success she named are John Kerry’s accomplishments. To be honest we will never know at what level she help John. Her tenure as Secretary of state was about running for president after Obama. Benghazi is what she is know for and the is question was it negligence or gross negligence?
Benghazi? Really?
Pat – As a very vocal (and admittedly strident) advocate for Mr Sanders myself let me be the one to ask you to consider stopping stupid, vacuous rallying slogans. Using Benghazi as an attack on HRC makes you look very foolish.
Sanders’ foreign policy pivot to the Iraq vote all the time is simply a campaign strategy. (I think calling it Carsonesqe is a bit of a stretch since it has the important and differentiating characteristic of being accurate.)
People who don’t follow politics unless there’s a Presidential election may still not know the history so this becomes campaign shorthand to draw a distinction between him and HRC, but it’s not enough. I agree that it’s a little tired now and he needs to present more relevant and contemporary details. It’s a very fair criticism.
I don’t understand the line of thinking that Bernie would get destroyed in the general election. The only people Republicans hate more than ISIS and Obama are the Clintons. I’m sure the GOP has an in-depth playbook on destroying the Clinton candidacy – they’ve been writing it since 2006 or so.
I agree. I don’t get where Josh Marshall is getting his “cut to pieces” thinking. Sanders has a long track record of winning elections. HRC…. one Senate race.
The people who think Bernie would be “destroyed” in a general are, for the most part, the inside-the-beltway people who “know how politics works.”
As has been said of Hollywood, “Nobody knows anything.” Least of all this year. Your fears that he would be destroyed are exactly that: fears. They may be accurate, but you are in a poor position to accurately weigh the risk when you’re carrying that fear around with it.
Oh I get it, definitely. I decided to back Obama over HRC in 2008 partially because I thought he would avoid the Clinton Derangement Syndrome and we could get to abit more substance.
Was I ever wrong.
Clinton Derangement Syndrome is Democratic President Derangement Syndrome. It won’t matter *who* the Democrat is, just that he or she is a Democrat. Obama continues to have to weather this bullshit. It won’t stop, because this is how GOP resentments are fed. This Derangement Syndrome is perfectly suited for our current media environment — where I *still* see the “some people think that Obama isn’t an American citizen” BS. It doesn’t matter that it is completely untrue, the only thing that the GOP needs is for it to be repeated in places where the lie is reinforced with their believers and the folks not paying much attention.
The question mark for Bernie is how ready is his team to handle this? Because Dems do not have a coordinated or entrenched machine to push back on this kind of thing. Which is some kind of malpractice, because they know this is coming — for any of them. It is a fair question to ask at this point, I think.
Both Hillary and Bernie will be under constant attack as President. For Bernie, it would certainly be a new experience (as it was for Obama). For Hillary, she has been under fire for more than 20 years.
I’m not saying that one is better than the other, but if you think that either of them would be the path of least Republican attacks/opposition/nastiness you are deluding yourself.
I do wonder what NEW line of attack people think Hillary will be subject to. I find it hard to believe that there is something that hasn’t already been subjected to 100 Limbaugh shows and 1000 hours of FOXNews coverage. And yet she still is the leading candidate. It is pretty amazing actually.
Cassandra and I are apparently on the same wavelength… /High five/
Okay, help me out here. I was an early Obama supporter. I volunteered at his city headquarters. I maxed out on donations. I phone banked, etc.. So why am I hesitant of going all in on Bernie? What is holding me back from picking a side?
And FYI: The Republicans will go nuclear on any Dem candidate. I pretty much know the attacks they’ll lob at Clinton (altho they’ll probably come up with some new ones) and I pretty much know how she’ll respond. What attacks will head Sanders way? How will he respond? That’s a serious question, btw.
Obama has always come across as an amazing leader and orator. Way back in 04 at the convention *that* speech…. you just KNEW he was going to be President some day. Clinton, in the same way, seems like a president.
Sanders does not. Much as I support him… and really not HIM personally, just all of his ideas, his whole image doesn’t fit with what our society has come to define as ‘presidential”. He’s somewhat unkempt, not much of a physical presence (and I don’t mean looks… more more of a posture/ stature thing)
that is where the GOP with hit. They will attempt to make him look like a confused, rambling old man. Low as they are, I fully expect subtle (not subtle at all) mentions of dementia and that sort of thing. They are such pieces of shit, they will bring up him dying in office and try to make whoever his VP is a target because hey, they are gonna be president. It will be very, very ugly.
I would be completely ok with Clinton as President if Sanders can be senate party leader.
Pandora… Obama made it very easy to organize and volunteer. I may be wrong, but I am not seeing the same level of organization for Bernie in Delaware than was here for Obama in 2008. Now, that may be because Delaware was an early Super Tuesday (February 5) state that Obama had to win, so he invested heavily here. Bernie probably figures he won’t win here, and is not investing.
But for myself personally, I view this election much differently than in 2008. This is a defensive election. We must hold onto the White House at all and any cost. I am not personally willing to go on an ideological or historic adventure like I was in 2008. And in 2008, after 8 years of Bush, we all had nothing to lose. So why not go all in on Obama? Now, in 2016, we do have a lot to lose, and while our heart says “hey, I like this Bernie,” the head says, “Welcome President Cruz if he is our nominee.”
Ben, I would make that deal in a second. I would love him as Majority Leader.
“Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) lags behind former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton by just two points, nearly wiping out Clinton’s previous 31-point lead, according to a nationwide Quinnipiac poll released Friday.”
All the nervous nellies need to know that Bernie’s message is getting through. It isn’t radical or revolutionary. It is actually nostalgic. The extreme view is that corporations should be calling all the shots and all the wealth in the country should be collected in the hands of half a dozen families.
Quinnipiac has been an outlier this cycle, always very negative for Clinton. Look at their numbers versus every other single pollster in existence at Huffington Post Pollster. Yeah, choose to believe in the fairytale it creates for you, if you want.
I almost don’t pay much attention to individual polls anymore (some exceptions like the Des Moines one) — I’m watching Nate Silver and starting to stop by Sam Wang’s place more. Just reduces the signal to noise factor for me.
Some one (Ted Cruz, right?) is putting it out there that Marco Rubio is gay.
Oops. Wrong thread.
He’s some food for thought.
Hillary is an angry liar who hasn’t been laid in thirty plus years..
Bernie is an old communist..
They don’t look to bias to me. Their past polls have been very favorable to Clinton.
Quinnipiac 2/2 – 2/4 Clinton +2
Quinnipiac 12/16 – 12/20 Clinton +31
Quinnipiac 11/23 – 11/30 Clinton +30
Cassandra’s point is valid though. There is a lot of noise in these various polls.
All the polls are showing Bernie Sanders closing in! I think its good to look at more then one poll and look to see their there is a pattern of trends.
Big Picture
Last Year Hillary was polling with 60% of Democratic voters if you average all the pooling data at the time. Bernie Sanders was polling 3.4% at the same time. Hillary is now polling 50% if you average all the pooling data and Bernie is polling 37%. Hillary is 13% ahead in the latest averaged polling data. According to Real Clear Politics. I like how they show a lot more data then just about all the media outlets.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/2016_democratic_presidential_nomination-3824.html#polls
Sanders is going to have to win big to overcome the super delagte count. I think he can do it, particularly if Clinton keeps trying to sell the warmed over “third way” Dem stuff that leaves primary voters so flat.
Two huge jolts were applied to the Overton window coming out of the NH Dem debates:
One, “progressive” was used in a positive context. Our candidates were actually quarreling over who was the most progressive. On DL we might find that conversation pretty enervating, but it is new to national media, and a good thing for the direction of the Democratic Party.
Two, Goldman Sachs is starting to become the political pariah it deserves to be. It’s about time.
Agreed and it is about effing time.