More clarion calls for Dems to water down messaging into a solution of 99.7% water
The very Democratic worry-warts and winless campaign consultants who worried Democrats into their current state of uselessness are now worried that calling for the abolishment of the increasingly fascist ICE will be “good for Trump.”
For these con-men and grifters attached to the Democratic Party, everything that doesn’t invlove rolling over and allowing Republicans to do whatever perverted shit they want to do, is “good for Trump.”
(CNN)On Twitter on Sunday morning, President Donald Trump wrote, “The Liberal Left, also known as the Democrats, want to get rid of ICE, who do a fantastic job, and want Open Borders. Crime would be rampant and uncontrollable!” But Trump’s claim that Democrats want “open borders,” like so much of what Trump says, is a lie intended to mislead the American people. Democrats are absolutely not calling for that.
What’s true is that we’re seeing an increasing number of visible Democrats calling for an end to ICE — Immigration and Customs Enforcement — because as Rep. Mark Pocan (D-Wisc.) put it, “ICE is tearing apart families and ripping the moral fabric of our nation.” This past week, Democratic Sens. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA), Kamala Harris (D-CA) and Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY) joined with Vermont’s Independent Sen. Bernie Sanders to call for ICE to be dismantled and replaced with a new agency. Pocan even introduced legislation to abolish ICE.
How dumb are you Knuckle dragging liberal loonies. First ICE doesn’t separate families, Customs and Border Patrol does. Second what does abolish ice accomplish besides make the democrats look like they want open borders? Or is that what you really want you wing bats?!
I don’t know that calls for abolishing ICE is good or bad for Trump. Still, it does shift attention from what is being done and on to who is doing it. I think that Trump will see opportunity in jumping on the band wagon (if it becomes one) and twisting what ICE’s actions as something contrary to his wishes. Keeping your eye on the ball when you swing has always been a fundamental principle. Do you really want the ball to be ICE?
I am not a liberal.
I don’t care what an anonymous troll thinks abolishing ICE will or will not accomplish.
Abolish ICE and fuck the police.
The is no immigrants crisis. Immigrants and asylum seekers commit far less crime than citizens. Immigrants and asylum seekers pay tax and take very little public services.
Also, all bats have wings so far as I know.
What part of this are you confused about? How can I help?
I’m fine with open borders.
I had a very interesting conversation with a DSA strategist this weekend. People are locked into a certain way of thinking. What is “mainstream” and what isn’t. This is wrong.
The example she gave was polling assumptions. The algorithms that determine “likely voters” is obsolete. We’re going to win because of unlikely voters. It’s a neat trick.
While you all gnash your teeth and wring your hands we’re talking to people who don’t think like you and when they think of politics the way you do they get violent ill.
I know this is very difficult for you all to comes to terms with.
Fuck all police.
https://www.opb.org/news/article/portland-state-shooting-victim-jason-erik-washington/#.Wzft0hQrfjV.facebook
@Truth80: Are you a Democrat? Because you sure don’t sound like one.
I couldn’t have created a better clown. It’s a court jester designed just for me. Either an empty headed neo-liberal or a Republican pretending to be a neo-liberal. Maybe it’s Mike Castle. He was born in 1880 I think.
The best part is that (s)he has zero self awareness. Thinks the posts are sweet burns but it’s only self immolation.
#WalkAway
To where?
I am a Democrat trying to save the party from you guys. Re Vanilla Ice Cream or whatever the dudes name is posts prove my point. F the police, I want open borders etc. yea its all cool when you are smoking blunts in your moms basement or wherever you live but stop trying to troll hard working adults actually trying to legislate and win elections. Don’t like the Democratic Party? Good leave it, be unaffiliated, A green, or something else weird. Your views are offensive shameful and hurtful.
That’s funny coming from an anonymous reactionary coward.
RE Vanella is my name motherfucker. And I smoke blunts on a golden toilet.
If you were courageous enough to use your own name we could discuss who has been more successful in their professional career. I bet it’s me.
You scared of change. That’s fine.
Because I’m very humble by nature I won’t go into it (unless anonymous fuck bag wants to reveal himself).
Anyone want to educate him?
We’re going to take your corporatist, conservative, failure of a party and drive it left and win. That’s really why you’re petrified I think.
Good luck on saving the party. It’s been so extremely successful over the past 12 years.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Fucking loser. Nothing there worth saving.
“Good luck on saving the party. It’s been so extremely successful over the past 12 years.”
Last I checked in the last 12 years we got Coons elected, Carper Re-Elected, Carney elected, LBR elected and took back the General Assembly and still control the majority of the New Castle County Council. I think the moderate wing of the Democratic Party is doing just fine.
The “moderate wing” of the Democratic Party is doing the work the “moderate wing” of the Republican Party used to do.
They’re doing just fine, the people they’re supposed to represent, not so much.
You’re a Republican, sporto, even if you don’t know it. Turn and face the strange.
ICE should be reassigned to locking up illegal employers. Border security begins in the workplace.
I’m old school and have no problem working with moderate republicans on issues that increase the qualify of life of Delawareans. What you wing bats don’t get when you are drinking the kool aide is the majority of Delawareans agree with me and you know it.
People like Puck always want immigrants gone, but they never want to take meat-packing jobs themselves.
Exactly. Their conservative corporatists. Their politics are garbage and this is why the Democrats have lost 1,000 + state legislative seats, lost the state governors, both houses of Congress and Trump is president. Success!
The moderate wing of the party is the reason we’re in the situation we’re in.
You’re an anonymous shill flailing around because the days of conservative corporate Democrats are over. Snivelling anonymous fear.
“The majority agrees with me” is the ultimate sign of surrender. It means you have no logical case to make, so you fall back on the fact that your positions are “popular” with the masses.
“Wing bats” is not a phrase, by the way. It’s either “moonbats” or “wingnuts,” unless you’re conducting genetic modification experiments in your spare time.
If working with Republicans is your idea of good governance, I suggest you go fuck yourself. Don’t forget to wear a condom.
All bats have wings.
The “quality of life” means that affluent white people get middle manager jobs for banks. Just remember this when anonymous comments say “Delawareans”. He doesn’t mean all Delawareans.
As far as what the majority of Delawareans believe, time will tell.
Like Al said, you have no argument. You’re just part of a cohort that reaps benefits from corporatist sell-outs at the expense of everyone else.
You’re a disgusting person with bad politics.
Truth80 is Mike Castle. Him or James Spadola. Let’s make odds and start guessing.
OK, I’m guessing it’s a Carney staffer, or someone in close orbit.
Hmmm. That’s a very good guess. A guy on Coons’ Wilmington staff knows me and lives in my neighbourhood. But he isn’t this stupid, so I’m sure it isn’t him.
If truth80 knew me in real life he’d know that this is my real name and what my financial situation is. The mom’s basement bit was adorable.
The terror is palpable. This is one scared neoliberal desperate to fight for affluent white people. They never catch a break!
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/alexandria-ocasio-cortezs-message-to-the-democratic-party
(T)o attract working-class and middle-class voters of all colors and ethnicities, Democratic candidates need to demonstrate that they aren’t part of a system rigged in favor of the rich and powerful. As a former campaign organizer for Bernie Sanders, Ocasio-Cortez levelled many of the same charges against her opponent, the ten-term Democratic congressman Joseph Crowley, that Sanders hurled at Hillary Clinton during the 2016 Democratic primary. “My opponent takes insane amounts of money from luxury-real-estate developers, from private-equity groups, from pharmaceutical corporations and insurance corporations,” she told Greenwald. “And that is tied directly to the legislation he has been passing.”
Vanilla Ice Cream I’m a guy who gets things done. Cant say that same for ya judging by your half way incoherent rants and tax evasion schemes you write about here and in the News Journal.
Vanella has a fan. That’s sweet.
Yes! Get Things Done. Trademark that motherfucker. It’s a winner. Worked great last time round.
Absolutely nothing incoherent about it.
For example, I can argue quite clearly why I favour open borders and the abolition ICE. I did so just up there…
You just come on here anonymously and say, well corporate garbage politics has been good for me and “the majority of people think X”.
You’re very scared. You should be.
Game, set and match to Rev-A-Nella, eternal damnation to truth80. And might I add Fuck The Police, the State Police in particular. Just for fun.
I appreciate you noticed my bit on the tax evasion schemes you and yours enacted and support. It’s for reasons like that that we’re going to ground your sorry centrists asses into the fucking dirt.
Long live Bamboozer!
Great meme!
Swap out “Truth80” for Coons or Carper and it all still works.
Truth has lost his mind! I am no far left liberal, but the polices of many “Democrats” is spineless. The entire party has no fight in them across the nation and it shows. Republicans have been FAR better politicians over the past 12 years because they claimed the principles and never strayed. Disclaimer, I choose to work for people that are Republican or conservative Dems bc they are genuinely good people & close friends. So trash me all you want for that, but even I can acknowledge the Democratic Party has yet to fight for a single working family will full throttled gusto. That’s why no one is winning. I try every day to open the eyes of politicians I consider friends than helping working families has nothing to do with what Party you belong to, but a morale obligation to help people instead of board rooms. The Delaware Democratic Party is basically the Episcopalian version of the Republican Party. You know, pretty much the Catholic Church, but slightly less guilt & just enough inclusiveness to keep people voting.
@Peter: Speaking as an Episcopalian who used to be Catholic, you nailed it.
The last lesson anyone should have needed came in 2010. Barack Obama helped keep the Great Recession from being a depression, then went easy on Wall Street in its wake because Wall Street had backed him over McCain. He prosecuted nobody from Goldman-Sachs, instead hiring a bunch of its poobahs. But the also supported the modest reforms of Dodd-Frank.
Wall Streeters and their supporters told us their feelings were hurt — look it up, they really said that — and switched their support to Republicans.
That’s what you get when you go easy on the corporate class. Anyone with eyes connected to a brain should be able to see that you’re going to get kicked in the teeth either way, so you might as well fight against the motherfuckers.
@Peter there are no far left liberals! What you label far left is the real middle of the electorate, the CENTER. Now, fix yourself.
Peter you sound reasonable which would you an outlier on this site
https://mobile.twitter.com/NatalieElsberg/status/1013805456442175489
Voters don’t trust Corporate Democrats for good reason. You can’t Resist Trump if your goal is the same as his – to exploit poor and working class Americans. Voters see through the empty rhetoric & elect candidates like @Ocasio2018 where they can.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/business/economy/a-way-of-monetizing-poor-people-how-private-equity-firms-make-money-offering-loans-to-cash-strapped-americans/2018/07/01/5f7e2670-5dee-11e8-9ee3-49d6d4814c4c_story.html?noredirect=on&__twitter_impression=true
Remember, everytime you hear how neoliberal corporatist trash “get things done” this is what they get done.
Imagine thinking that Tim Geithner is “reasonable” and “good”.
@T80: You are a slave to your fears. I have not seen you espouse any liberal goal Democrats should be working toward, or an issue on which you think bipartisanship is working for the public good.
Consider the gun bills in the just-concluded legislature. How many did Delaware legislators pass vs. those in other states where Democrats control all elected branches of government? I have to go pick up my passport, so I’ll leave you to your research until this evening.
I think Peter and Truth should start a website or podcast. Get them some of that Michael Bloomberg dough.
Call it “Clinging Desperately to the Status Quo”.
Hey, I’m about to donate to Davies & Harris, and will begin working for Wheatley next week. Save the judgement, although I brought it on myself. I want to see a party with some tenacity and unapologetic beliefs. Maybe the path polticians take to implement laws/policy aren’t the ones we prefer, but end result to support working families instead of corporations should not be copromised. I will correct myself by generalizing liberal. It’s not a negative term in my book, and I did not mean that as an insult. I am all for ending corporate welfare. I know none of you personally, and am always energized by these posts, and feel more informed because of them. I appreciate all of your views, even if I don’t agree with them all. Sick and tired of lack luster leadership!
Point taken. I respect that. I agree that genuine values and argument is what’s needed rather than some vague notions.
Also, two things for the record, you get much respect from me for commenting under your own name. I’m a leftist not a liberal. 🙂
Peter. This is what they do here. Insult and harass people who don’t see their warped leftist out of touch world.
What did I write to Peter, coward? You family must be very proud of your anonymous thoughts.
Personally I dig trashing you.
@80 Lets see: leftist world = the weekend, overtime pay, the social safety net. What is warped, leftist, or out of touch?
“This is what they do here. Insult and harass people who don’t see their warped leftist out of touch world.”
IIRC you’re the one who’s just visiting. Now you’re going to tell us how to behave at our own site? That, friend, takes some stones. Sort of epitomizes white male privilege, and demonstrates why the kidz reject your politics.
As for our friend Rob, I like to say that even our Vanella will knock you on your ass.
truth80 says:
July 2, 2018 at 10:05 am
I’m old school and have no problem working with moderate republicans on issues that increase the qualify of life of Delawareans.
I’m old too and my life experience gave me insight, and ability to discern when I’m being a stooge and a tool for the corporate types. I research, learn the issue, see both sides and make a decison. Many in Delaware have bought the “corporate mindset” to the point, they work for candidates and legislators who are on the take, and run on behalf of the party they serve. In their mind, they have one job to do, get elected. They make deals with the devils to stay in power. They do not work for the citizens, nor do they listen to our needs. I have attempted organizing, mobilizing most of my life. In Delaware if you can get 20 people out on a subject, its like 2000. No Truth your not the majority, you are increasingly becoming a very small minority. Please explain what you believe a “moderate” is..do you mean center right.
Paul says:
July 2, 2018 at 11:53 am
@Peter there are no far left liberals! What you label far left is the real middle of the electorate, the CENTER. Now, fix yourself.
Paul: Absolutely correct. What the alt right like to refer to “liberals” is the now center right. There is no far left in this country. Liberals are not progressive. Progressives are the center left now. We are the true patriots, believing in our Constitution, not religious zealotry, and will fight fascists like Trump. Trump stole the republican party from the republicans. Corporate owned democrats stole the democratic party under Clinton. This is precisely why we get nothing done in DC…midterms and 2020 elections will make the change this country needs.
Here’s the bottom-line question for Truth80 and all timid moderate Democrats:
Do you really want the things liberals want and are just too worried about backlash to support them? If so, you’re a liberal who’s been browbeaten into fear.
Or are you actually not in favor of those things, and just using your “concern” as an excuse to advocate for a “middle” (corporate-friendly, of course) path? In that case, you are not a liberal, you’re just a Democrat.
In which category does Truth80 belong?
Not sure he belongs in the ‘just a Democrat’ category. I think he belongs in the troll category.
That’s possible, of course. But I know real-life people who make exactly the same argument.
@Alby don’t get me wrong. I’m a Democrat but heres the scary part, just because I don’t want to Abolish ICE, maybe believe in capping the min wage at 12 dollars, pro choice but for some restrictions on late terms, and believe parents need involvement in decisions children make about being transgender you wont consider me one.
I still strongly support union rights, gun control, equal rights and protecting the environment. Guess that makes me a DINO!!! You people are crazy and chasing Democrats like me out of the party which is why you don’t have a Democrat South of the Canal really except a few. Keep it up. Real smart, not to mention blue collar dems from places like New Castle and Delaware City to name a few are Democrats like me who have and would vote Republican over some of you lefties.
“Democrats like me who have and would vote Republican over some of you lefties.”
OK by me. I’m through voting for Democrats because their capitalist/imperialists promise to make me a shit sandwich on better bread than the Republicans.
We have tried it your way since 1992. It’s time to admit it hasn’t worked. Indeed, it’s possible to argue that Clinton’s move to the right made Gingrich go even further right, which is how we got to where we are.
Vanella Ice & his court- cry me a river, man. You guys attack Truth & Peter because they don’t agree with 100% of your agenda, and then claim to be the face of the Democratic Party.
Don’t send me a Facebook message this time. There’s a village searching for its idiot.
We didn’t claim to be its face, just its brains.
“There’s a village searching for its idiot.”
It ain’t Dover. They’ve got Democratic idiots by the boatload, because the Republicans couldn’t meet their quota.
Hey Marlon, you up for it? Since you’re an anonymous fucking coward I’m thinking no.
Right?
You’re a coward.
Here’s a hint. You’ll never beat me because you’re anonymous. You’re soft.
I would explain further. But I promised I would not.
You know I’d tear you up though. Cause you’re an anonymous baby.
Socialism will win. You know. You’re weak.
Admit it. You’re soft. It’s sad.
Does anyone notice that when I support “open borders” my opponents just say
…
See, open borders!
Do you notice they can’t tell you why it’s wrong?
Because it isn’t. It’s just a thing they say because they’re stupid. Do you notice there isn’t an argument? You’re just suppose to believe it.
It’s a trick.
That’s why they’re anonymous. They know it’s bullshit. They’re embarrassed.
Please follow this closely….
I know what you’re up to. And when you’re anonymous and I’m not everyone knows you’re a liar.
That’s my neat trick.
That’s how people know I’m telling the truth and you’re lying.
I’ll put my name to it.
Get it?
It’s actually very easy…
…when you’re right.
Sorry, Jason. I’m done.
Vanilla ice a cream open borders are bad. We have laws and I don’t want to let anyone in. 95 percent of America agrees with me. Eat some more cheetos
Truth: Do you support those seeking asylum not lumped in with “illegals”? 85% of those coming to the border from El Salvador, Honduras et al (central america) are suffering from the worst horror that you could never imagine. We deported those M13 cats from the US. They went to central america to terrorize and kill anyone who refused to join their gang, sell drugs or if a girl prostitute themselves for the gang. Why don’t we have a Marshall Plan for central america, get the gangs out so families can live their lives without terror. The money Trump is spending on rounding up the asylum seekers could have paid for a Marshall Plan. Trump refuses to permit asylum seekers to get before an immigration judge, and en masse is detaining everyone, continuing to separate them from their children! If your a democrat do you believe the asylum seekers have a right to present themselves at the border without being further terrorized? Democrats do not support open borders, we want humane sensible common sense solutions to the problem. As far as ICE, since 911 Ice was given more responsibilities, to go after asylum seekers. We need to abolish Ice because they are a goon squad…folks run from them. They have a notorious bad image to people around the world. Trump and Sessions are using them like their own personal goon squad. Change their name, go back to the duties they had prior to Trump. Create a new agency to deal with immigrants, and asylum seekers.
95 percent of America agrees with me. Truth where did you get that number, out of your arse. NO 95% dont agree with you and the racists bastards Trump supporters. You seem to have an issue with throwing out “they all agree with me”. Facts for that number. You speak only for yourself, and lose the readers with your “numbers” used as your facts.
Thousands of people marched in 750 cities last weekend…they don’t agree with you.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/18/17475740/family-separation-poll-polling-border-trump-children-immigrant-families-parents
more proof Truth is dead wrong.
NO ONE wants open borders. That’s stupid. Why have a country? I don’t live On North America I live in America
Bernie Sanders Calls To Abolish Immigration System
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) is now joining other lawmakers and government employees in calling for the abolition of our current immigration system and a restructuring of Immigration and Customs Enforcement after facing criticism for dancing around the issue.
In a series of tweets on Tuesday, the 2016 presidential candidate took a clearer stance on the agency and reminded followers that he voted against establishing ICE and the Department of Homeland Security when they were proposed 15 years ago.
Sanders joins fellow Sens. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.) and Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), a number of other lawmakers and 19 ICE special agents in calling for change in light of the separation of immigrant families.
Can you read Truth: I didnt say we want open borders that is STUPID. Your humanity is seriously flawed. No human being on this planet is ILLEGAL, the US immigration system has been broken for decades…and PUKES wont fix it. Their fix is “lock em up”, take their kids, deport them, and adopt out their children…so they can endocrinate them into their cult.
https://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/31/delaware-a-small-example-of-a-larger-trend/
@t80:
Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don’t stand in the doorway
Don’t block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There’s a battle outside and it’s ragin’
It’ll soon shake your windows and rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin’
https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-american-oligarchy-a-review/5646235?platform=hootsuite
Great article on all politicans.
Yes they are illegals
On this coming Fourth of July, it’s worth pondering the true meaning of American patriotism—as opposed to the malignant, distorted view of it propounded by Donald J. Trump.
For Trump, the central challenge of American patriotism is to secure our borders. “Without borders, there can be no nation,” he says.
But excluding foreigners has never been a dominant part of American patriotism. For most of its existence America has been relatively open to people from the rest of the world, especially those fleeing tyranny and violence.
America’s core struggle has been one of inclusion, not exclusion. We have strived to extend equal citizenship to Native Americans, African Americans, women, and LGBTQs.
Truth: your more republican than democrat. You said, NO ONE wants open borders. That’s stupid. Why have a country? I don’t live On North America I live in America.
That comment sounds just like Trumps. Your stuck on “illegals”, obviously you dont know the difference between an illegal crossing the border and those who come seeking asylum. you need a history lesson
“Yes they are illegals”
You’re getting nowhere with that rhetoric around here. Keeping out immigrants is bad for the economy.
Trivia question of the day. As I have been Vanella all my life, how many times have I’ve been called “ice cream” or “chocolate”?
Bonus points… How many of the people who called me that were over the age of 13?
Left is best and socialism will win.
Happy 4th…
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-trump-the-exterminator-how-can-we-use-his-poison-against-him-1.6241806
Trump has poisoned Independence Day.
“Keeping out immigrants is bad for the economy.”
Perhaps, but keeping illegal immigrants out of the workplace is good for legal workers and the economy.
Today’s progressives have forgotten their pro-labor DNA and really do support open borders and unlimited dilution of the labor market.
If it is true that illegal workers “take the jobs Americans won’t”, then those Americans are effectively on strike for higher pay and better working conditions, and illegal workers who take those jobs are essentially scabs. Better to force employers to hire legally and let them compete for workers on wage and working conditions. If prices go up, then so be it – that would be the true price of goods in a legal labor market.
For seasonal field work there should be robust programs for legal temp work. When the picking season is done, you go home rather than hang around looking to work somewhere illegally.
I’m all for increasing legal permanent immigrants, where annual limits set by Congress are enforced. That way voters have some control over immigration limits.
Truth: time to identify yourself not hide behind a handle that doesnt fit your meme. Come on get out of the closet.
@puck: If you increase legal immigration, you decrease illegal immigration.
The problem with the classical economics principle that you cite is that it’s currently not working. Unemployment is below 4% and yet there has been no wage growth. An important thing to remember about economics is that its practitioners are trying to
“Better to force employers to hire legally and let them compete for workers on wage and working conditions. If prices go up, then so be it – that would be the true price of goods in a legal labor market.”
I’m all for that, with the qualifier that the real world has never actually operated that way. Capital will always seek ways to cut labor costs, whether that means immigrants, offshoring or mechanization.
In a global system like the one we currently inhabit, capital will look overseas, which is what put American workers in their current vise. If tech firms can’t import workers, they’ll export the work. I would prefer we take those people into the country where we can tax them and their spending boosts our economy.
@Liz & REV: We allow commenters to use online aliases. People have various reasons for doing so.
@Alby,
Economists assert illegal immigration is “good for the economy,” yet they all tug their beards and profess bafflement over why wages aren’t going up. News flash – illegal employment is one of the major escape valves for wage pressure and is the pace car in the race to the bottom.
I’m aware it’s allowed. I know people have reasons.
I question those reasons and judge those commenters.
If you want to come on here like puck, or that guy from the beach, or even Tom Kline. If you just want to throw some one liners up and have a laugh, I think of it a little differently.
If you want to make political arguments and hide your identity so we can’t evaluate your motivations. Fuck you. You’re a coward and a piece of fetid trash. You make petty schoolyard puns.
Fuck you. Fuck Truth80. I wish nothing on him but pain and nothing on his family but shame.
So that’s where I’m at with it.
And if any of you think that’s too much, remember. We don’t know who these people are.
…I just remembered.
Mouse.
The guy from the beach is mouse.
I felt bad for not remembering. I like mouse.
The code I try to follow is – no personal attacks while anonymous. I may have slipped a few times but I try.
Using your real name has a lot to do with your job and your perception of job/financial security. A lot of real-namers are retired.
I work a corporate job. Have done 22 years. I also have a mortgage…
And again, if you can’t make the argument because you’re scared, then just say you’re scared.
“If Socialism, international revolutionary Socialism, does not stand staunchly, unflinchingly, and uncompromisingly for the working class and for the exploited and oppressed masses of all lands, then it stands for none and its claim is a false pretense and its profession a delusion and a snare.”
—Eugene V Debs, July 1910
https://www.marxists.org/archive/debs/works/1910/immigration.htm
I don’t like false pretenses.
When I worked I used an alias for legal reasons. Now I do it at the insistence of my relatives, who don’t appreciate getting hate texts from doxxers.
@puck: The problem with your argument is that illegal immigration is at a 40-year low and the economy is growing. Both should move the needle alone, let alone in concert, yet it hasn’t.
Low wages are not the result of immigration, legal or illegal. Bottom-end wages have lagged inflation for decades.
Immigration is “good for the economy” because “the economy” is actually the sum of all financial transactions. More people = more transactions, hence, growth in the economy. This is so basic and obvious nobody talks about it, with the result that nobody takes it into account.
If you want to keep social programs like Medicare and SS alive, importing workers to supplement our low natural growth rate is imperative.
@A. you identified yourself with your first post here. That’s a strong mitigating factor, for me at least.
The idea that you need the protection of anonymity to argue for the oligarchs and the status quo is ridiculous on its face.
@REV – Your commitment is admirable, but my wife and kids didn’t sign up for hate mail or employer retaliation. A lot of DL’ers know who I am, except for newbies like you, so I’m not exactly anonymous. Besides, nobody believes that is your real name anyway.
That is true. It’s funny how many times that’s happened. I use the initials when writing. It seems formal and the E differentiates it from my pop.
Plus it’s the old fashion way of recording names of the scorecards of cricket matches. Homage to WG Grace.
Look, I use my real name and nobody has said shit to my wife or anyone in my family. And most people think my views and language are extreme.
I not saying it doesn’t happen, this hate email or texting. But I’m not buying it as a deterrent. If getting a nasty email is the worst of it I’m unconvinced.
Also, I don’t like how people use someone else as an excuse. Like my brother or wife will be harassed? By whom? Will they be anonymous?
I’m sure there are people in my family that don’t share my views. I don’t care.
This is why I’m a more trustworthy interlocutor.
@REV: It’s a little different when you have a daughter-in-law who’s worried for your grandchildren.
I learned a long time ago, when my boss got fired for something I wrote, that your responsibilities extend further than you realize.
@Alby,
Eleven million or so people working off the books, living 8 to an apartment. and shopping at the Dollar Store is not a boon to the economy or to safety net services.
Employers hire illegally because they believe “lower wages=higher profits.” But a more important fact is that “higher wages=better markets.”
If your concern is Medicare/SS, I’d rather see US workers paying those taxes. We have more than enough low skilled US workers who need jobs, in fact it is a shame for America. But employers aren’t willing to hire them or to do what it takes to get them working (on the job training, livable wages). They need incentives or disincentives to force them to hire American and to keep the work and workers here.
I would have to hear more details about something you’ve written putting your grandkids at risk. (Obviously I wouldn’t expect you to share it here.). Seems far fetched or at least irrational.
Again, I have grandkids. My son-in-laws’ case better paint a dangerous picture for me to take it seriously.
If holding and advocating for political causes in your personal life puts your families in danger then we’ve already lost or are too close to losing to stop now.
Still unconvinced.
Of course it’s irrational. I”m not the one who’s afraid, she is.
And not all of the animosity comes from people on the other side of the aisle.
The factors I take into account with regards to anonymity don’t include partisanship. It’s not relevant. I agree.
@REV… didn’t you post under a pseudonym for some time here? Based on the writing style I’m pretty sure the pseudonym I am thinking of was you.
I make every effort to follow my own advice. That’s what makes me a more honest broker.
So like if I had done, then switched, why might I have done it? Or, I’d guess even a significant outside event could make someone do such a thing.
What I’d do, is I’d look to see when one stopped and the other began. If I were so inclined I would. Then I’d think, what happened around this time to focus this person thinking on this matter.
I wonder if this person changed the alias or used two at once. Other even used a fake a real name simultaneously! I hope this person didn’t do that. I would never do any of that, personally.
I mean I don’t know anything about it.
I’d also wager, as I believe you mentioned previously, that most of the people on here do know each other anyway. Maybe there are people you know who already know the answer.
I think this answers your question, puck, if that’s your real name…
I guess we all have secrets.
You asked. I answered. Did you want a press release or announcement of some sort?
But yes, in the general sense, we all have private matters.
I practice what I preach because the stakes seem much higher now.
For seasonal field work there should be robust programs for legal temp work. When the picking season is done, you go home rather than hang around looking to work somewhere illegally.
It’s called seasonal…the migrants work in southern California picking lettuce, tomatoes etc. When the apple season comes to Washington, they move there to pick, they move on to where the next season starts. What american citizen will work dawn to dusk bent over in the heat for less than minimum wage, Who is working in these disgusting chicken plants, migrants and people from Haiti etc. When the chicken companies were informed ICE was coming in, the workers didn’t show up, and they had to close the plant for the day. Migrants arent taking our jobs, they are filling jobs we desperately need, that american workers won’t do. A friend of mine worked at Jantzens, they had trouble keeping kitchen workers. He suggested they hire mexican women because they show up and work hard. So they did hire them. After a few weeks the owners thanked my friend for the suggestion, cuz those women never stopped. They did their jobs and when they weren’t busy, they cleaned up the kitchen it was spotless under their work ethic, plus they were very honest people. There are plenty of jobs that need workers right now, that are not being filled. Most want to work the seasons and then go home, so let’s give them a seasonal work permit. There are common sense solutions to this problem. A Marshall plan for Central America would cost less and make those countries safer so people wouldnt leave. We have our migrant problem but Europe has one too. Migration is worse than ever as these wars that never end have destroyed homes, business’s and lives. Climate change another huge problem not addressed in relation to migrants. I refuse to call them illegal, because they are human beings, born on this planet and have the same human rights as anyone else.
Liberals who argue for more illegal labor are elitists who never imagine that they or their children will ever be competing in the blue-collar labor market.
If americans were taking those jobs, why are farmers having to hire migrants. Migrant workers have come to this country for decades without major problelms. Only after 911 did the “border” become such an irrational claim. Trump is a racist pig, and you all know it, so why do you buy the Trump TV propaganda? Listen to this mentally deranged President and defend him at your and our peril.
Anyone who comes to work should be legal.
Abolish ICE and set up a department to do the identification and administrative work. They don’t even need to be armed to do this.
Also ensure a $15 minimum wage floor.