Should Democrats Fight or Compromise?
In recent days we’ve suffered a rash of visits from some Ghosts of Democrats Past. Various commenters, presenting themselves as “centrist” or “moderate” or “blue collar,” have argued that full-bore liberalism will cause other people — not them, mind you, but other people — to react by voting for Republicans.
The product of this mind trap is a perfect catch-22: We have to fight to win, but if we do, it will backfire and we lose. There’s something wrong with this logic, but what?
Josh Marshall nails it: “Treat it as a first principle,” he writes. “It’s not wrong because of any particular factual reasoning. It must be wrong because it leads to inaction and defeatism.”
Let’s take the “Abolish ICE” slogan. I’m agnostic on whether this is precisely the right tack. But I’m inclined to think it is since on the merits I really do think we should abolish ICE as currently constituted and create a new immigration service that is not structured around paramilitary enforcement and isn’t so prone to abuses. I hear a lot about it’s better to say “reform ICE” or “thoroughly change the way we enforce immigration laws.” No. Electoral politics is far less about particular policies than it is about meta-messages about clarity and power. … If your political language tiptoes around what you think or shows you’re not quite sure what you think or shows that you know what you think but may not be willing to act on what you think, that … signals weakness and irresolution.
But he also cautions:
[I]t’s not at all clear to me that interrupting cabinet secretaries’ dinners accomplishes anything productive besides emotive satisfaction for protestors and diehard anti-Trump voters. Unlike “Abolish ICE” it doesn’t signal a clear policy goal. It’s mainly about emoting. It is important to evaluate every tactic and strategy for what it actually gains. What Democrats need now isn’t training sessions on civility or better ways to finesse language. They need to find the most effective ways to fight and then throw everything into it.
His piece has more insights into effectively fighting Trumpism, but I don’t want to violate fair use. Go read it and get liberated.
I thought the message to Scott Pruitt from the baby holding teacher was clear enough: resign.
What we call left is the actual center.
“I thought the message to Scott Pruitt from the baby holding teacher was clear enough: resign.”
It’s only worth doing if it’s going to be effective. I’ve seen the video, and it wasn’t.
Yeah, because she didn’t get friends together and run him out.
We can do all these tactics. We needn’t pick one. We need people running for office and people putting their bodies on the line at ICE concentration camps. (Some of these are the same people incidentally.)
What candidate loses a vote because a group of DSA activists runs the secretary of DHS out of a restaurant?
Which none Trump voter will decide to vote for Trump because the left is uncivil?
The sum of these two is very small.
Some people will try to influence by writing Op Eds and some will be arrested at a Senate Budget Committee hearing. (Odd coincidence, some people will do both.)
“What candidate loses a vote because a group of DSA activists runs the secretary of DHS out of a restaurant?”
What candidate gains one?
It has nothing to do with campaign politics. Looks like we agree it has little to no impact on that.
It’s public non-violent disobedience. It shames or makes uncomfortable people who deserve it. And when it’s disseminated it inspires people to resist, in public, and confront literal fascists or Vichy collaborators.
It shows that there are people out there not too busy working or taking care of kids to engage. Anyone can do it anywhere. This lady was holding a child.
It’s not all one thing. That’s why this is good and must continue. I hope to have the opportunity myself. I know the Delaware beaches are replete with DC insider ghouls on holiday.
These are the reasons.
My personal attitude is that people are gonna do what people are gonna do, and nothing I’m gonna do or say is gonna stop it.
My opinion is that videos of such confrontations stir up conservative hatred, and if we get into a hatred fight we’re going to lose simply because they have far more and varied hatreds than we do. I want them demoralized, not energized. As I said some days ago, go ahead and do it, but I’ve seen enough of the videos to know how this goes.
Now if you can get one to go ballistic, that’s video gold. But they’ve been trained not to do that, so most confrontations make us look more boorish than them — no easy feat when you’re facing Scott Pruitt.
America has a long hike to the left to get back to the center.
I don’t think the arguments that it foments further fascist hatred is really going fly.
Frankly I’m passed that.
Fight and keep fighting. There is absolutely no room for comprising principles. True blue Democrats are idealists and Republicans are ideologues. Idealism trumps ideology in any sane society. If there are any Dems out there who believe idealism will hurt them at the ballot box then they should follow their chosen path to their own oblivion and get out of the way of intellectually honest candidates. Rep. John Kowalko
Kowalko for Governor.
@Alby, “Let’s take the “Abolish ICE” slogan.”
I know you and Marshall seem to be of the same mind regarding meta messaging. We’ve had this discussion before, so I’ll just quickly reiterate what I’ve always felt and said.
What I don’t like about this one is it is nothing but a slogan. It’s not a solution. In the last hour I had a conversation with my wife, sort of explaining my attitude. The World Economic Forum (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/06/there-are-now-more-refugees-than-the-entire-population-of-the-uk/) has estimated that at the end of 2016 there were 65.6 million displaced persons in the world. The only solution that we have come up with so far, and about which there is constant argument, debate, and conflict is to accommodate the refugees. 65 million is more than the population of the UK. We have to do something more than just accommodate refugees. We have to find solutions for problems that create refugees. When almost 1% of the worlds population is displaced providing adequate food, clothing and shelter. I recognize that we have to feed the hungry, but that’s not a solution.
We have to find some means and solution for healing/fixing/restructuring these countries that create refugees. Displaced people (which includes the ones coming across our border) are symptom of a disease for which we do nothing but provide a band aid.
Abolishing ICE is a slogan that recognizes our system is broken. But it says nothing about how you fix our system and further, how you fix the desperation that broke the system.
The problem is
“Dissolve ICE And Replace It With Something Other Than A Paramilitary Force That Would Facilitate The Entry Of Immigrants And The Speedy Admittance Of Asylum Seekers”
is, and I think you’ll agree, a very poor slogan compared to other successful slogans.
#AbolishICE
Perhaps you’re confused about what a slogan is? That’s ok. We can help.
For details, see the quoted bit above…
@dave: What he said. It should be backed up with substance, but you need bumper stickers, too.
Repeal and replace sounds good, for example, and that’s what actually is being proposed.
And replaced with a specific thing. Don’t forget that detail!
Query me this. Would a 2020 primary be more likely to produce a positive end result than a general R vs D atypical array of the same old same old. Need serious advice for a close aquaintence. Rep. Kowalko
T80, go away you Russian bot.
Especially with a Democratic controlled house, I see very little difference between a Governor Carney and a Governor Simpler. Some real Democratic leadership, wedded to Democratic ideals, would be refreshing at the top of the ticket.
Truth 80. You just revealed you are neither democrat or liberal, you are a Russian lover. Did you see those republicans in Russia, (narry a democrat invited). Didnt challenge the Russian oligharchs on any issue. The GOP is now firmly behind Putin and his destruction of every democracy in Europe and elsewhere. There is no walkway dude, in fact dems are beating pukes by 10 points. Wake up you russian lover, your voting against democracy.
What Mike said.
“Would a 2020 primary be more likely to produce a positive end result than a general R vs D atypical array of the same old same old. ”
Rep Kowalko,
yes. If this person is a friend or “a friend”… if they have your support to take on Carney I absolutely think it is a good idea that “they *wink” run. 2020 is going to be fucking bonkers. If Ocasio-Cortez’ win shows us anything, it is that corpricrats and the Clintonian guard aren’t safe.
Not being trmp won’t be enough… that said, there is 0 chance Mike Protak or whoever runs as the trumpublican will win in 2020 in this state, so the primary IS the election.
do it… or if not that, run for Senate later and burry that little worm named Chris Coons.
Anyway, hope that helps and thank you for the work you do.
-someone who already gets to vote for you in elections but would happily do so for other offices.
What Ben said.
https://mobile.twitter.com/abogada_laura/status/1014214985218547712
Official DHS doc: “subject was notified of the right to communicate with a consular officer…as per…the Vienna Convention of Consular Relations. The subject acknowledged understanding the right but declined to speak with a consular officer”
“subject” is a 6-year-old client.
….
And these people aren’t to be harrassed in public? OK.
“I don’t think the arguments that it foments further fascist hatred is really going fly.”
As I said, that’s my personal opinion. My prediction is that people are gonna do what they do, and you’re one of the people.
Personally, I can’t work up a temper attack on command like that. My default is to be friendly with people on a one-to-one basis, no matter who they are or what they believe. The dick I am here only comes out in the real world when somebody treats me poorly, at which point I automatically respond in kind.
My point being, I wouldn’t jump bad with Scott Pruitt unless and until he said something ignorant or treated me dismissively.
I would, under no circumstances, be taking video of the engagement, though people with cell phones are gonna do what they’re gonna do. As I said — just my opinion — the confronters always come off worse than the confronted in those videos.
so you aren’t going to really get into the fight until you personally are negatively affected. tmp thanks you for his second term.
No, I’m not going to confront people in public. Big difference. I’m talking about personal behavior, not political action.
And what’s wrong with that? Direct confrontation with the powerful absolutely empowers people. Dont wait for someone else to fight your battle for you.
“Direct confrontation with the powerful absolutely empowers people.”
Evidence, please. What you mean is that it makes you feel good for a little while. That’s not empowerment, that’s solipsism.
“Dont wait for someone else to fight your battle for you.”
Making Scott Pruitt or Sarah Huckabee uncomfortable is not my battle. You don’t win this war by confronting these people while they’re eating dinner. Feel free to get back to me with evidence that it does.
Imagine campaign ads full of mothers with children confronting admin officials, then those officials being rushed away to their safe space but big men with guns. I think that image plays quite well to that coveted “real american” who doesnt want some coward in office. It shows that the trmpers are weak snowflakes.
Convincing you doesn’t matter to me. You’ve already stated your position and I tend to just move past people who want to be road blocks. Enjoy the slow lane.
“Imagine campaign ads full of mothers with children confronting admin officials, then those officials being rushed away to their safe space but big men with guns. I think that image plays quite well to that coveted “real american” who doesnt want some coward in office. It shows that the trmpers are weak snowflakes.”
I have a lot more experience than you at this, and I think you’re dead wrong.
“I tend to just move past people who want to be road blocks.”
I tend to engage with people who want to be assholes, so here we are.
What y’all are trying to do is come up with a logical justification for your emotional actions. You needn’t bother. The rest of us can see you’re just being irrational — assholes, if you prefer.
It’s not like I said you shouldn’t do it. Go ahead. Diff’rent strokes. There’s no law on the books against being an asshole, though if you do it obnoxiously enough harassment laws might come into play.
That said, I would probably just walk past the table and boo them. Lets them know they’re disliked without ruining everyone’s evening.
Here’s Michelle Goldberg’s take. It was published more than a week ago but it’s still getting lots of referrals from other writers on the subject:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/opinion/trump-sarah-huckabee-sanders-restaurant-civility.html
People with experience knew trmp wouldnt win. With all due respect, i don’t care much for “experience”.
And how is your evening ruined by seeing an asshat get theirs? I’d have been cheering that aldy on and would have picked up her bill. bullies have power because no one steps up to them.
“With all due respect, i don’t care much for “experience”.
Helps explain why you’re reduced to yelling at people instead of producing the change you seek.
“how is your evening ruined by seeing an asshat get theirs?”
Get their what? You think they go home and reexamine their lives? It deepens their resolve, just like it would yours if your positions were reversed. And yes, if I’m out to dinner (rare, but it happens), I really don’t want someone else’s drama intruding on my evening.
Maybe you’re the sort who can’t enjoy anything as long as there’s a comfortable conservative unafflicted. The rest of us just want to eat dinner.
“bullies have power because no one steps up to them.”
When you accost someone in public, you’re the one who looks like the bully. Which is why I say the videos are counter-productive.
So Scott Pruitt has taken that “pointless advice”…. Anything?
Wait. I just got to your comment? You think a young mother with a toddler “bullied” a administration Secretary? And she’s the one who “looked bad” yikes. So you were wrong before he caved and quit, but now it just looks like DD swearing up and down that Hillary was gonna win Georgia.
Yes, I’m sure it was that confrontation that did him in, and not the 15 active investigations and constant media pressure. Dead sure. Oh, wait, that’s you, mistaking coincidence for causation. Fool.
Yes, I still think it comes off badly.
If you don’t realize you’re wrong, there’s nothing I can do to help you. You’re just going to have to live with the fact that, while I don’t really care what you do and really don’t judge you for it, I think those who do this look bad. Why you insist on arguing me out of my personal opinion is, I suppose, for others to judge. I’ve already made up my mind, and your disapproval doesn’t matter a flying fuck to me. I’ve made myself clear. If you want to be mad about it and insult me for it, then you’re the asshole.
Of course, I’m leaving aside the fact that the guy replacing him will likely be far more effective at implementing their agenda. But you go ahead and keep justifying for everyone why your temper tantrums deserve our respect.
I accept your apology.
It is confusing seeing the same guy who felt the need to toughen people up for the fight by insulting the women’s march (which wasnt supposed to do anything… or was that metoo) now get all queasy about standing up to powerful bullies. I cant tell if youre really confused, or really unable to see how wrong you have been a bunch of times over the past 2 years. You’re playing the old game. It’s what you know…. complete with the one-key lash outs you do so well. Hopefully you get good and ignored. /
And of COURSE the replacement will be worse. That is how the game works, dude. Every decision will be the worst. The next guy is also awful and it stays in the news right up until election day. Catch up, man. You’re a talented warrior who wont give up his bronze khopesh in a world where everyone is picking up steel cutlasses. That said, …aggro-dismissive comment in 3…2…