Impeachment Pretzel Logic
There’s no point in impeaching Trump because he’ll be exonerated by the Senate, and then he can claim vindication.
He will claim vindication if you fail to impeach him, too. He claimed exoneration from Mueller’s report, which did not exonerate him. As with any crime, a failure to prosecute has the same ultimate effect as a not guilty verdict in court.
We should pass lots of legislation in the House, even knowing it will die in the Senate, so we can show we’re getting things done for the American people.
So we should pass legislation knowing it will die in the Senate, but we shouldn’t impeach Trump because we know it will die in the Senate. Got it. You want mustard with that pretzel?
Impeach now and Dems have a concise policy that makes sense on its face – Nobody is above the law.
Wait and they have a wishy-washy catalogue of muddled explanations that only make sense to DC insiders.
Dems will always pick a wishy-washy catalogue of muddled explanations that only make sense to DC insiders over a clear brand statement.
I the House votes to impeach, must the Senate go forward with a trial? Or can Mitch stall the entire process, just as he did with the Garland SCOTUS nomination?
Impeaching puts the GOP in the Senate on the horns of a dilemma, regardless of the unlikelihood of two-thirds voting to convict. Hold the trial, and even more evidence against Trump spills out. Refuse to hold the trial (either via a vote or delaying tactics) and implicitly become accomplices in a coverup.
Go forward with impeachment and force Mitch’s hand.
No good option, so fight. Fuck it.
You guys need a refresher on the Clinton impeachment trial. Bottom line was, failure to convict benefited Clinton enormously, despite the tawdry information in the Starr Report.
Don’t get tied into knots about looking strong, that’s Trump-land.
I’ll have yellow mustard on that pretzel, and it better be warm.
Clinton was popular, you dummy.
Once again, people assume that the Senate failing to convict will benefit Trump, when it’s just as likely that it harms the Republican Senators who refuse to convict.
People know the difference between getting a blowjob and stealing millions of dollars. And if they don’t, then Trump will win a second term anyway, impeachment or no impeachment.
Not being about to tell the difference between the two situations marks anyone who thinks like FS a pants-pissing idiot.
Go forward with impeachment – to what end?
I think it was Steven Covey that said “Begin with the end in mind”
If the House votes to impeach and such notice is delivered to the Senate, the Senate must beginning the process. However, there is no schedule decreed for the entire process in the Senate. They have to prepare the articles of impeachment, appoint a appoint a committee to receive evidence and take testimony and then proceed to a full trial, and so on and so forth.
In the end they either vote to convict or not. If they vote to convict, hooray, justice is served. What is the probability of 2/3 rds majority for conviction? If they don’t convict, justice is not served and Trump has his campaign all laid out for him and the Senate and House look silly or worse because by the time the affair is concluded it is now 2020.
So the question is, if the House walks down this path, is everyone prepared for the outcome? It is valorous to do the right thing in the face of impossible odds. But discretion is also the better part of valor. And while this is certainly a constitutional crisis, it is also politics and not Pork Chop Hill.
In my opinion, nothing can be done to shorten his first term and so the end objective should be to deny him a second term. Anything that facilitates that objective should be on the table. Anything that does not should be set aside.
The end is getting all the Trump crimes on record. If the Senate fails to convict, it’s not a disaster — it makes everyone see the criminality the Republicans are wiling to put up with.
Just because the only end you can conceive of is removing him from office doesn’t mean that’s the only valuable end.
Republicans destroyed Hillary with the Benghazi hearings.Democrats are still making fun of those hearings as if they accomplished nothing, when we are living with what they accomplished.
And if you find that “getting all the Trump crimes on record” makes a rational case for impeachment, then by all means press ahead.
Removal from office is not the only outcome I can conceive of. I also conceived of the outcome you articulated. Even so, I’m reminded of Trump’s statement about shooting someone on 5th Avenue, and that generally few people seem to care about his crimes.
My greatest fear for the impeachment process (which I am not against, since I’m an advocate for the rule of law), is that when all is said and done, no one will give a damn.
And that fear is based on what we have all seen thus far. An Administration rife with corruption, a veritable cornucopia of abject incompetence, and an actual complete dumbass running the country. Yet an average of 42% of the people think he is doing a good job.
So I’m just not convinced that getting his crimes on record matters. If you think you think it has sufficient value to pursue, I’ll accept that. You’re the political junkie, not me. What does matter to me and my sole objective and focus is to deny Trump a second term. Anything else is icing on the cake.
Well, I don’t share your sole objective, as it won’t solve any other problem than that one.
If they can get all this without impeachment, I’m fine with following your protocol. But I think there’s a danger in waiting and letting him run out the clock through court processes.
I would prefer the impeachment charges be about his violation of the emoluments clause and money laundering plus criminal tax evasion charges. Those things will have to be established by investigation. I don’t care which process gets it done, but that’s the core of the rot not just with Trump but the entire GOP.
I get that it won’t solve any more problems than that one. I wish I had more confidence in the nation’s ability to do more, but at this juncture, my overriding belief is that Trump is the most clear and present danger that we have ever experienced.
If they do move towards impeachment, I hope there focus is on the emoluments clause and other financial crimes. I think those have the best chance of succeeding because they are less encumbered by politics.
The political strategist has logged on!
As Jason said, Clinton was popular to begin with.
Not doing it is worse because you look like Dave. Punk-ass little bitch.
You know why Democrats suck balls and Republicans and conservatives win everything? Dave’s defensive loser mentality.
If Trump’s acquitted in the Senate run on the fact that those Senators are accessories to crime and traitors.
You guys are fucking gutless wonders.
It’s the Garland-Gorsuch gambit. Just fucking do it. If it works you’re a genius. If it doesn’t tell everyone to fuck off.
One would think you’d see this by now. The side that wins just does whatever they feel while the Dave’s of the world nervously nibble over every detail.
The American people realized Clinton had really done nothing wrong and that the dopeycons were on a witch hunt. That’s why he remained popular. Trump has done plenty wrong and it needs to be exposed regardless of how the cowardly Senate acts.
My greatest fear is people with Dave’s sheepishness and over analysis. Weak. Can’t be relied upon.
I’m trying to imagine the voter who is on the fence about Trump. And I’m trying to imagine how he or she will decide to vote FOR him BECAUSE the Democrats in the House voted to impeach and the Republicans in the Senate voted to not convict.
And I just can’t see it.
I’m not claiming to know for certain and I’m not interested in calling anyone a bitch or and idiot for their stance on impeachment. But I’d love for someone to make a coherent argument as to how it will hurt the Democratic/Liberal/Progressive electoral chances if the House does its job and initiates the impeachment process.
That being said, I lean towards being in favor of impeachment simply because it’s the principled position. It’s consistent, fair and just. And not only will it fail in the Senate, but even a conviction would result in …. Mike Pence? Sweet. And yet, I can’t help but feel that doing the right thing is still worthwhile and that it would demonstrate to future voters that Democrats have a spine and will make the tough calls.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment.