How to Catch Flies
Came across this in a Daily Kos diary, and it echoes what I’ve heard both IRL and online.
There is a silent majority of American voters who are DONE with the whole “burn it to the ground” attitude. Done.
These are people of all stripes, all incomes, all races, all genders, who want to return to a functional government with a sane human in the driver’s seat. These are people who are sick and tired of being talked down to because they aren’t comfortable demolishing our healthcare system in favor of one that has never been attempted on this size and scale in America. These are people who, when they simply ask how we would get that kind of moonshot up and running, are accused of being a part of “the establishment.” Or worse, sometimes much, much worse.
So it turns out that when you shit all over people, you create a desire for vengeance. And because you need those people to join you to achieve your goal, their vengeance takes the form of voting for the candidate you hate rather than the candidate you support. Is it logical for them to do that? No, because it’s self-defeating.
But was it logical to shit all over them in the first place? Again, no, because it’s self-defeating. But it’s understandable, because they are fighting with emotion, not logic, and that’s the ground Sanders supporters chose for the battle. Instead of explaining that the Sanders revolution was the next logical step in progressivism, instead of lessening the fears this DK author expressed, the Sanders campaign and many of his supporters shit all over them some more.
So let’s examine this by the metric that matters most: Did it work? Emphatically, no.
This turns out to have been an extremely expensive life lesson. Given the cost, it would be foolish not to learn something from it.
Maybe. Or…This strikes me as a reverse engineered rationale. People can simply dislike Sanders. That’s ok too. No need to try and fit it into some narrative.
These days I’m just not real interested in vilifying people for being impolite.
It’s about tactics, not vilification. The tactics of confrontation failed. Simple as that.
And it’s not about being impolite. It’s about being unlikable. And I’ve heard from a lot of Bernie supporters the past few days that, while they supported his policies and would vote for him, they don’t actually like him. Many women, in particular, have been put off by the behavior of his male supporters.
That’s a huge problem, because the more likable candidate usually wins.
^^^^THIS^^^^
This is weird…I have actually never met a berniebro or interacted with one on line. How do I identify one?
Markos M is a dipshit and his website is obsolete.
This turns out to have been an extremely expensive life lesson. Given the cost, it would be foolish not to learn something from it.
“return to a functional government with a sane human in the driver’s seat. ”
Define “sane.” Sanity requires we recognize and act on the multiple crises we live in. Feeding the status quo won’t work. Doing the same thing won’t get us different results. Climate, economy, and race relations are all unsustainable in the status quo.
Biden can’t string a sentence together.
Yes, I originally had a paragraph pointing out that these people cannot ever get what they’re hoping for, because it’s now been 20 years since we had a functional government with a sane human in the driver’s seat.
We have sometimes had a sane human driving (Obama), but until the Republican Party is destroyed, we will not have a sane government.
Calls to cut Social Security & Medicare. Champion the BK bill. Senator from MBNA. Author the framework for mass incarceration. War with Iraq. Anita Hill. Burisma. Strom Thurmond. Handsy hair smeller. Anita Hill. Agree with Sarah Palin on same sex marriage. Takes money from group to endorse Republican candidates.
These are all fine. Just don’t yell please.
I have learned quite a bit. Problaby more than you. A vote for Biden is a vote for Trump.
It ain’t over till it’s over.
You can yell all you want. My point is your behavior is self-defeating. Until you’ve learned that, you haven’t learned anything.
You don’t stiffen soft spines by belittling those who have them. Yelling at politicians is fine. Yelling at the people you want to join you seldom works.
What part of this eludes you?
After 28 years of hiding in the jungles of Guam, local farmers discovered Shoichi Yokoi, a Japanese sergeant who was unaware that World War II had ended.
Jefferson Davis gets a lot of bad press, but he coached my son’s little league team and throws a huge cookout every summer.
I know him!
That’s not Jeff Davis, that’s Vance Phillips (look him up).
Do you want to be right or do you want to win?
The math for Bernie is dreadful.
March 10: Biden was ahead in Michigan, Missouri and Mississippi even before Super Tuesday. Bernie leads in Washington.
March 17: Arizona, Florida, Illinois, Ohio. Biden leads in all but Illinois, and the last polling there was Feb. 21.
March 24: Georgia, where Biden leads and will probably win given the high percentage of AA voters.
Bernie can win enough delegates to deny Biden a first-ballot victory, but I can’t see any way for him to raise his ceiling in the next two weeks.
You can sloganeer all you want, but you can’t bullshit a bullshitter.
Again, do whatever the fuck you want. But try to have enough self-awareness to realize that you are far from the only obnoxious Bernie supporter out there, and you’re not one of the worst.
It’s a movement-wide problem, not yours. Most of the people writing about this have never heard of you.
No shit, Sherlock.
What I’m trying to get you to understand is that people don’t act rationally once you attack them. So it’s better not to attack them.
Sanders scared them, and they ran to Daddy Joe for comfort. And now we get to choose between Tweedledum and Tweedledumber in November.
I’m on your side, you dolt. That’s my point. You treat everyone like shit no matter whose side they’re on.
From Amanda Marcotte’s column today:
Sorry, but pissing up rainpipes isn’t my thing.
I’ve done all I can do trying to convince Democrats they should vote for Bernie. And all the explanations I’ve made about why Bernie’s plans would be cheaper than doing nothing, and how the end of Sallie Mae would be a cheap price to pay for erasing student debt, get drowned out by confrontational behavior.
I don’t care if you act nicer; this race is over, and you lost. If you want to convince yourself the behavior of your candidate and your cohort had nothing to do with it, I can’t stop you from living in a fantasy.
Get over yourself. It’s your whole movement’s fault. When you’d rather shit on people than explain things to them, yes, it’s your fault.
The party divide isn’t left or right. It is the extent to which you perceive that we are a country & planet in crisis.
MLK’s Letter from a Birmingham jail is very instructive.
True. But perceiving the crisis and berating those who don’t doesn’t win more people to your viewpoint.
Is this really that hard to understand? If so, maybe that’s why progressivism takes a back seat to incrementalism.
People don’t decide based on reason. They decide based on emotion. And, as we see with Trumpists who stick with him because they hate the libs, people will even harm themselves in order to harm those they perceive as attacking them.
More Amanda Marcotte:
Read the whole thing:
https://www.salon.com/2020/03/05/should-bernie-go-negative-on-biden-absolutely-not–that-would-backfire-badly/
And remember that she’s not anti-Bernie. I’m not anti-Bernie. Our point is that you can work to convince people or you can shit on people. Guess which one works better?
I think she gets to the point. Some people simply don’t like Bernie.
Ben and I have both admitted a sense of disappointment that he was the standard bearer for progressives.
Maybe if it had been Warren things would have been different.
My take is that it is ok to simply say. “I didn’t want Bernie to be the nominee”. It is much better than, and more honest than “Bernie supporters are too mean, and Bernie is too radical”.
Her point isn’t that some people don’t like Bernie. It’s that neither he nor his supporters did anything to make either him or his platform more likable. That’s why the ceiling on his support has been 30%, and even in a two-man race it’s only 45%. You can’t win with that.
I don’t like Bernie’s personality, but I would have been fine with Bernie as the nominee. I preferred Warren, but not strongly, and now that she’s out I’ll vote for Bernie. Those are the only two I would actively support. I’ll vote for Biden, but I won’t pretend he’s not a disaster.
It’s not about Bernie being too radical. It’s about centrists being scared, and Bernie doing nothing to lead them from fear to reason, and his supporters telling them to fuck off if they support an establishment Democrat, or even express skepticism about his electability.
Some people don’t like explaining things to people and prefer to mock them instead. That’s fine with conservative trolls, who aren’t going to listen anyway.
But when timid Democrats say “Gee, maybe Biden’s more electable,” and are told, “You’re part of the problem,” why do you think they’re going to switch to agreeing with you? When in your non-political life has that ever worked? Guess what: It doesn’t work in politics, either. This is simple human behavior, and the voters are humans.
“It’s not about Bernie being too radical. It’s about centrists being scared, and Bernie doing nothing to lead them from fear to reason, and his supporters telling them to fuck off if they support an establishment Democrat, or even express skepticism about his electability.
Some people don’t like explaining things to people and prefer to mock them instead. That’s fine with conservative trolls, who aren’t going to listen anyway.
But when timid Democrats say “Gee, maybe Biden’s more electable,” and are told, “You’re part of the problem,” why do you think they’re going to switch to agreeing with you? When in your non-political life has that ever worked? Guess what: It doesn’t work in politics, either. This is simple human behavior, and the voters are humans.”
^All of this, exactly.
Sanders and Biden were my bottom 2. Both too old. Sanders too divisive and Biden too clueless about political reality. I still hold a grudge about the juvenile antics of his supporters at the 2016 DNC. He put some of his worst supporters in positions of power in his campaign (Sirota, Turner). Despite that, I’d probably prefer Sanders to Biden. I’ll probably still vote for Warren in April unless the primary is not decided. (I think it’s probably over by March 17)
I kept saying… it didnt work out for the last person who kept annoyingly demanding a bent knee and total fealty. (sure, it’s fiction, but art life, yada yada). THey are STILL doing it. STILL lashing out at everyone but their own candidate who seems like he couldnt be bothered to actually make sure his voters showed up.
Bernie is BAD at coalition building. It’s his whole brand. He sticks to his principles no matter what. Even if he fails. Even if the other side wins. Even if it means all he can do is get post office named.
I too was fooled. I though a VAST silent majority of new voters (specifically in texas) would show up and knock the establishment out. They did not.
I Bet every single person who went to a bernie rally voted… and probably not too many other people. It’s not over, but it’s pretty damn close. Even a Warren endorsement probably wont help in Michigan and Florida. If she endorses Biden, the Berners will flip the fuck out and someone will probably try to kill her. They dont understand how government works. They dont understand that their own Savior relies on amendments and trading to get things done. Even in all of this, our resident BErnie BRo is STILL Lost Causing his way to a trump Dynasty. BIden probably IS senile. BUT SO IS TRUMP…. and trump’s senility is full of fear and hate. At least the people controlling Biden will be to the left. maybe one can be Warren.
Trump won re-election on Tuesday night. Bernie handed it to him.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Trump saying he’ll cut SS and Medicare will kill him. The coronavirus fuckup hurts him, too.
Trump can only win if the Bernie brigade refuses to vote for Biden. It doesn’t matter in Delaware, or California, if they stay home, but if they stay home in Michigan and Pennsylvania Trump will win again.
i realize this is my small, curated bubble… but there is already talk that itll be “better long-term if Biden loses to trump”.
Basically the exact same thing all the Bros howled over Chris “unemployed” Matthews saying about HIM. these people never got over their 2016 temper tantrum. No chance they will now.
Ah, the Sarandon Defense.
It works just fine for white men, because they’re not the ones suffering under Trump.
I agree that Biden won’t get anything done except nibbling at the edges, but at least he won’t continue to make things worse.
in my little network of Warren Warriors… damn, shoulda come up with that 3 months ago… would have changed everything….
In my little network of WWs, a lot of us have started, or started making plans to support some of the D candidates in these close senate races. I suspect many (not all, ok?) bernses would have started making Jill Stein memes in the same situation.
I forget if we can post links, but there will be some places to sign up to help get people to the polls on Nov election day. PA is gonna be close with Joe, but not out of reach and maybe runing food and water to people waiting in line can make the difference.
Just saw recent polling that Biden will probably win without the hardcore Berners but getting them onboard would add 3-4 to the total. That means the Senate too.
If that’s true it will benefit Biden to try and win Bernie voters over instead of pushing them away.
Joe Biden would rather work with a Republican Senate. To be more precise, he would be most comfortable with a slim Dem majority while keeping the filibuster rule.
Your act is really stale. You might think about updating it.
And you’re seriously comparing Amanda Marcotte to Neera Tanden? You’re more fucked in the head than I thought.
Oh, I see. It’s all about where they stand in relation to Bernie. How could I forget?
Nothing you have written here, nothing you have EVER written here, would make it more likely that anybody who reads the blog would vote for Bernie. You have, although, made it more difficult for those supporting Bernie to justify the behavior of supporters like you.
Which raises the question: Just what are you trying to do?
Performance Art? That’s about all I can come up with.
Like UI, who you just couldn’t wait to insult, I was a Warren supporter. Like UI, I’ll vote for her over Bernie in the Delaware primary. Mostly b/c of your ‘assholier than thou’ shtick.
I hope you’re not suggesting that you’re on the third-world side of that divide.
This space certainly isn’t about you shitting on everyone. And you’re in no position to call anyone else delusional.
Dude. She said she’d vote for Warren because she’s on the ballot even through she’s dropped out with like 50 delegates. This is perfectly normal.
Gotta tell ya. Hard to pin delusional in me bruv
If she’s on the ballot in Delaware I’ll vote for her too, because whether Biden wins the state by 100,000 votes or 99,999 isn’t really important to me.
You’re not delusional? You still think Bernie has a chance. It’s over, dude, whether you realize it or not.
I don’t need to be fellated, my vote for the eventual nominee is locked in.
And yet, it I see that there are die hards that will have to make a choice when they enter the voting booth.
I hope the nominee really understands how many votes are at risk if he takes a path of alienation that sows the seeds of antipathy among people that should be solid supporters.
Agreed. I think I’ve made my feelings about Joe Biden clear over the years. I don’t think he’ll be a good president. But the lesson I learned in 2016 is that the bad is preferable to the execrable, so I’ll back the bad in hopes of defeating the execrable.
Agreed, And I hope the die hards also understand the risk when they enter the booth. Although, they’ve will have had almost 4 years of it and if that doesn’t motivate them, nothing will. I may have to tap deep into my reservoir of will to do so, but I’m up to the challenge.
Regardless, There is a dynamic that may be at play, which will influence the outcome. Research have found that the behavioral bias of “extremeness aversion” is an ingrained habit that can influence choice. Extremeness aversion is the term for our human desire to compromise. Dozens of studies have established that when people are presented three options they often strike an internal compromise and choose the middle option.
In an article, published in the Journal of the Association for Consumer Research, the authors share unpublished research established the tendency to seek the middle ground, and the role age plays in extremeness aversion. The researches found that young adults chose the middle option an average of 41 percent of the time, while the older participants avoided an extreme option nearly 61 percent of the time.
What this tells me is something most of us have known for a long time. Older people are much more risk averse than younger people (Doh!). But risk is not just identified risk. It is also perceived risk and when faced with actual or perceived risk, people will act the same. While this was a consumer study, it applies in an election because people are buying a candidate.
Forget pleasantries; you’ve done nothing to convince anyone of anything that would make them vote for Bernie.
This is not about being nice. It’s about making rational points to convince Democratic voters why they should coalesce behind Sanders instead of someone else. You don’t have to be nice to do that. You do, however, have to articulate your arguments a damn site better than you ever bother to.
And I’m not talking about your commentary. I’m talking about the attacks you resort to in lieu of rational argument.
You don’t talk to people like that when you go door-knocking, do you? Try to pretend that the people here are opening their doors and treat them accordingly.
REV: I was gonna take the high road and not point out how the ridiculous posturing of you and your Bro ilk blew up in your face and will solidify your place on the margins of political history. As I said in the movie, you can’t sell leaf-tables with no chairs. Chairs, you got a dinette set. No chairs, you got dick.
You got dick.
You could at least spell “Coen” right. Another (though lesser) area where you have no credibility.