DL Open Thread: Tues., June 4, 2019
How Trump’s Lies–And The Repeating Of Them–Leads To Totalitarianism:
Why?
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule,” wrote Hannah Arendt in her 1951 classic “The Origins of Totalitarianism,” “is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (i.e., the reality of experience) and the distinction between true and false (i.e., the standards of thought) no longer exist.” In a later interview, she went further: “If everybody always lies to you, the consequence is not that you believe the lies, but rather that nobody believes anything any longer. And with such a people you can then do what you please.”
Supreme Court To Approve Phony Census? Signs point to yes. Are you depressed yet?
Another Take On The Supreme Court Census Case. Won’t make you feel any better.
Trump Reportedly Stiffed Panamanian Government On Hotel Profits. Has he ever done an honest deal?
Carney Calls For Additional Education Funding For Underserved Students. Lawsuits have a way of focusing your attention, even our sleepy leader. All we’re really talking about is $15 mill over three years.
What do you want to talk about?
“If everybody always lies to you, the consequence is not that you believe the lies, but rather that nobody believes anything any longer. And with such a people you can then do what you please.”
HBO’s Chernobyl is excellent and highly reccomended. In the closing court scene Valery Legasov recants some of the lies he told in a prior Chernobyl Review Conference in Vienna. He details the lies that lead to the distaster and and the lies that were told in the wake of the disaster.
There was a proximal villan, but Legasov goes farther. He talks about all the lies imbeded in the Soviet system that got that proximal villian to his bad decsions.
In the end Legasov says, “Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid.”
I hope that is true and I hope the debts Trump’s reign of lies has run up is paid sooner rather than later.
Good to see the Trump Baby Blimp flying again in London. I protested Trump beneath it in Paris last fall.
I think I’ve figured out why Biden is pretending to care about LGBT issues — he figures his main competition as No. 1 Centrist White Guy is Mayor Pete.
There may be some substance to his stance on LGBT issues. You can’t overlook (1) the Biden-Sarah McBride connection; (2) Joe jumping ahead of Obama on gay marriage; (3) Joe officiating a same-sex wedding at the VP’s official residence.
But I get your point: if the gay candidate is trying to be more centrist than Joe, then Joe has to try to be more sensitive to LGBT issues than the gay guy.
I watched ‘the gay guy’ at a Town Hall last night on MSNBC. Don’t see him trying to be as centrist as Biden at all.
@MW: Of course I can overlook it. I’m not giving him credit for being progressive when he’s only progressive compared to conservatives.
@ES: Nobody is as centrist as Biden. But Mayor Pete is peddling the same “let’s all get along” bullshit that Corey Booker and a couple of others are preaching.
I won’t vote for anyone who wants to “get along” with Republicans. I want as many Republicans as possible tried and sentenced. No more being nice to a sociopathic party or its members.
IF Biden gets one more face lift he will look and smell like Nancy.
If you packed a bag full of shit and carried it on your shoulder people would think you were conjoined twins.
hhahhahahaaa, you funny
Funnier than you.
You know the only thing worse than Donald Trump? AN old White guy Democrat pretending to be a Progressive Crusader. The lies are worse now than in 1988.
Nope, sorry. Nothing is worse than Donald Trump.
I don’t know if MFX is still here, but this is why there can be no compromise with capitalists:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/02/us-wants-access-to-nhs-in-post-brexit-deal-ambassador-to-uk-says
They are voracious and don’t care what they harm as long as it further enriches them.
That article does a fair job of suggesting that compromise with Trump is a bad idea. That isn’t news. But I would argue that Trump isn’t even a Capitalist. Just a crook and a con-man. So if you want to make a deal of ANY kind with a con-man, you get what you deserve.
For the record, I never said I supported Capitalism. I will go on the record as fully supporting Democracy, however. And as someone with the ideological belief that democracy is good, I’m quite in favor of arguing in favor of a form of Democratic Socialism in place of our current bastardized form of Capitalism. But that means persuading people and getting along with people who don’t agree with you on everything.
And I know that even hardcore Capitalists have been and would continue to be willing to make deals with Britain that don’t touch the NHS. It’s absurd to project Trumpism on everyone else who believes in Capitalism.
I agree entirely with your goal. But you mistakenly believe you can change minds. You can’t.
You win by taking a hard-line stance and forcing them to compromise.
I do not share your faith in democracy. It has never been shown to be a stable form of government. Even the ancients understood that it eventually gives way to autocracy, because that’s actually what a majority of people will vote for under any kind of threat.
That doesn’t mean I’m going to work against it, but again, I’m not going to pretend something is true when it’s not just because it’s the common position.
We already don’t live under a democracy, nor a democratic republic. We live in an oligarchy that pretends to democracy.
I honestly don’t know if you care what I think but I’ll clarify in the case that you do:
I’m a firm believer in taking a hard-line stance and forcing concessions in many, many cases. Even in forcing unconditional surrender. I can even support being a ruthless motherfucker to people who clearly deserve it.
I don’t have faith in Democracy. Because I don’t have faith in enough people. But I do believe in the Golden Rule and as such I refuse to bend on not counting every vote and every opinion because I don’t want mine to not be counted.
As for changing minds – Mine has been changed. On multiple occasions. And if I’m to believe anyone I’ve ever talked to I’ve managed to change a few myself. Is it rare? Sure. That seems to me to make the endeavor that much more worthwhile. And if I’m to believe any of their rhetoric, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren agree with me on that point. They try every day to change minds. I think their approach is effective in the relative scheme of things.
So it seems to me that on a site called Delaware Liberal you are more than likely to get a majority of people checking in here and posting who already agree with you one way more tan they disagree. And it seems like if you WANTED to bring that audience around to your way of thinking on any particular topic, they would qualify as the low hanging fruit. Will you change any minds? I guess you’ve already decided what your answer is. But I wouldn’t rule out that your delivery can amount to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Blah, blah, blah. I’ve been doing this a long time, sonny. My days of giving a fuck about saving this sorry species are long past. I changed a few minds, too, but nowhere near enough, and unlike you I’m not inclined to pretend we have the time to go about it your way.
So tell me, what is it you think we should be doing to persuade people? Be nice about it? Pretend I don’t think most people are — pick a word yourself, since you don’t like “morons.” Then I’m just a pandering politician, IMHO.
I’m not doing this to persuade people. I’m doing it as an outlet so I don’t resort to violence.
BTW, you’re wrong about who checks in here. We get two trolls for every liberal, which is one reason I don’t believe in being nice.
I’m a leftist not a liberal. For the record, hardly anyone agrees with me (and not just here).
Is that Stalinist, Leninist, or Maoist?
Poor chap.
“If everybody always lies to you, the consequence is not that you believe the lies, but rather that nobody believes anything any longer.”
I disagree. I think it gives people permission to believe exactly what they wanted to believe in the first place.