Monday Open Thread [6.10.13]
So I guess Vice President Biden is getting up appearances as the Democratic Plan B, as he is making the rounds at state party functions. He is headlining Virginia’s Jefferson-Jackson Dinner on June 29. This is his third Jefferson-Jackson keynote of the year, after South Carolina on May 3 and Michigan on April 20.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) said he would examine ways to block the National Security Agency’s surveillance programs before the Supreme Court, according to The Hill.
“I’m going to be seeing if I can challenge this at the Supreme Court level. I’m going to be asking all the internet providers and all of the phone companies: Ask your customers to join me in a class action lawsuit. If we get 10 million Americans saying we don’t want our phone records looked at then maybe someone will wake up and something will change in Washington.”
Well, a couple of things. First, if Rand Paul really wants to challenge these programs, the first thing he should do is sponsor a bill in the Senate to repeal the Patriot Act in its entirety. He is a Senator and legislation is his wheelhouse. The foundation for the surveillance state is the Patriot Act. Get rid of the Patriot Act, and you deal a crippling blow to all of these programs.
Second, I am not sure I want this current Supreme Court ruling forever on the Fourth Amendmnet and the Patriot Act. I am afraid of the ruling they would come up with. Although, I am encouraged by Justice Scalia’s recent dissent in a case involving the warrantless taking of DNA samples from those arrested and in police custody. Scalia sided with 3 of the 4 liberals on the Court in opposing such a warrantless search. So it is good to know that Scalia does have some limits, and actually believes there is a Fourth Amendment.
Third, regarding the process of all of this. Senator Paul cannot just wake up and head over to the Supreme Court to challenge a law he doesn’t like. The Constitution that Rand Paul so dearly loves places limits on what the Court can and cannot hear, and they are limited to hearing cases or controversies that are not moot, that involve a federal question or a conflict between citizens of different states, that are ripe for judicial action, and that do not involve a political question. And if Paul can meet all those requirements, he has to file his lawsuit in the Federal District Court, presumbly for the D.C. Circuit. And then after the District Court has ruled on the case, Paul or the Government can appeal to the Circuit Court. After the Circuit Court rules, then either Paul or the Government can appeal to the Supreme Court. So you don’t just go to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court can refuse to hear your case if it thinks the case was correctly disposed of in the courts below.
Indeed, regarding all the hub bub surrounding the NSA revelations this past week, I am in agreement with Andrew Sullivan: I am underwhelmed. The scandal here involves the collection, pursuant to a lawful search warrant, of metadata (i.e. statistics) involved internet usage and phone records. No one is actually listening to what is being said in your phone call. That was the scandal back in 2005/06 when it was revealed that President Bush had ordered the unlawful and warrantless wiretapping of phone calls. When I see people comparing the recent disclosures to that episode, I get a little upset at the stupitiy. One was legal. One was not.
The real issue here is that many think it should not be legal. The government should not be able to collect this data, even with a warrant. Ok. Well, the issue then is the Patriot Act. Your efforts should be directed at repealing that law, or electing candidates who will repeal it, rather than being angry at the Obama administration for doing what the law allows. Secondly, I assumed, once the Patriot Act was passed, the government was already doing this, with the this being data-mining. If you are shocked this week, I dare say you are quite naive. No, I think the hub bud or “outraged reactions” are less than severe and more of an effort to gin up support for the repeal or at least modification of the Patriot Act. And I am all for either.
A side note: I really wish someone other than Glenn Greenwald was the point person on this. His past as a purist blogger and his demeanor rubs me the wrong way. But whatever.
here is a link to dumbass Peter King, Republican New York, saying we should extradite Edward Snowden, and prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law because he thinks he will give all our secrets to the Chinese. First of all, Edward Snowden is the only honest person in the whole cia/nsa group. And he also has the balls to go public with something that he knows is bad for the country. And because of that, dumbass Peter KIng thinks we should put him in prison for life. Why would this guy go public, if he was planning on giving information to the Chinese. Makes no sense. the only thing that makes since, is that Peter King is a Dumbass.
http://freedomslighthouse.net/2013/06/10/gop-rep-peter-king-calls-nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-dangerous-to-the-country-concerned-china-will-get-info-of-u-s-security-assets-out-of-him-video-61013/
This goes beyond the Patriot Act and back to laws passed in the 70’s.
Better late outrage than none at all.
Some of the most intrusive provisions of the Patriot Act were supposed to sunset, but first Bush extended them and then Obama signed the Patriots Sunsets Extension Act of 2011.
I must say that the circumstances surrounding this Snowden guy, and the fact that he is hiding out in China at a time when the administration is trying to confront China concerning some of their sketchy tactics, is fishy.
Some conservative outlets are calling him a spy for China.
I wouldn’t put it past the Chinese to take advantage of the situation, and use Snowden as a pawn. Especially seeing that the administration is being pressured domestically to come down on China for their institutionalized rampant economic hacking.
There is one problem with that, FBH…. Snowden fled to HK and outted himself. If China was involved, and had Snowden as a plant or a spy in the NSA (or with access to the NSA), you keep him there as a double agent, and you have him feed the information he gets to the Chinese, not to the media.
No, China is not involved. But I do think this was a planned operation from the get go. Snowden was on the job at Booz Allen from March 9 to May 1. Glenn Greenwald has said he has been in contact with Snowden since February. It sounds to me like this was a fishing operation on the part of Greenwald all along.
Daniel Ellsberg fully supporting Snowden, says his going public with this is saving us from Tyranny. Also believes that government has everything, not just meta data
Says he would have done the same thing, expecting to go to jail for fourty years, as he expected to when he exposed the pentagon papers.
Ellsberg further raises the question, says this has never been decided by a judge.
Is it really a crime to expose criminal activity?
Ellsberg says there is no question this violates the constitution, he also says he supported the Obama administration both elections
http://www.newsmax.com/newswidget/ellsberg-snowden-nsa-leak/2013/06/10/id/509018?promo_code=F492-1&utm_source=Test_Newsmax_Feed&utm_medium=nmwidget&utm_campaign=widgetphase1
“Ok. Well, the issue then is the Patriot Act. Your efforts should be directed at repealing that law, or electing candidates who will repeal it”
Exactly! Additionally, the Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989 provides the avenues for reporting misconduct. The Office of Special Counsel and the Merit System Protection Board are authorized agencies who have responsibilities for whistleblower complaints. Unless someone appointed Greenwald or the Guardian when I wasn’t looking, he/they have no responsibility or authority.
Sometimes, releasing national security information causes damage. Snowden could not and would not have known or understood if it did. I’ll wait for the facts, but suffice to say, if he was acting in the best interests of the nation, we don’t need enemies. He has that covered quite well.
BREAKING: Judge throws out NCCo Council Council vote for rezoning of Barley Mill Plaza.
“Ok. Well, the issue then is the Patriot Act. Your efforts should be directed at repealing that law, or electing candidates who will repeal it”
Yeah like that’s gonna happen.
Or how about someone expose the Patriot Act for what it really is? A massive give away of our civil liberties. Enter Snowden……
Ah, Deldem. Always here to cover for and defend the establishment (when it’s the Democrat establishment, that is). Nothing to see here, move along…
First, FISA is the foundation of the surveillance state, although the Patriot Act has obviously been instrumental in the metastasis of illegal domestic spying.
Second, these are not searches supported by warrants based on probable cause.
Third, Senator Paul did take legislative action: he voted against the extension of the Patriot Act. (Who signed that into law?
Fourth, Senator Paul is taking additional legislative action: http://www.paul.senate.gov/files/documents/4thAmdtRestoration.pdf
This legislation expressly prohibits collection of telephonic data by the government without a warrant based on probable cause.
Fifth, Paul suggested to “take it to the Supreme Court”– that’s shorthand. Most people understand this, though I can see it from your point of view: you must do your best to find minutia with which to nitpick those opposed to your Democrat masters. Many cases have been initiated in order to “take them to the USSC.” It’s obviously understood, and much easier to abbreviate shorthand, than it is to say: “We’re going to file this lawsuit in Circuit Court, then appeal it to the Court of Appeals, and then petition the Supreme Court.”
I’ve always held out hope, but, alas, I guess there’s absolutely no chance for intellectual honesty from you.
I can’t possibly be the only one who remembers you being (rightfully) apoplectic about Bush’s FISA abuses. Are you seriously so enamored with Obama that you’re willing to turn a blind eye to his increasingly obvious pattern of disregarding the constitution? Or does the 4th Amendment matter less when a Democrat is in office?
Open your eyes. Stop blindly trusting a man who has given you absolutely no reason to believe a thing he says.
It appears Joe Biden agrees with me…
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=1613914n
text below of the fourth amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
This language is very, very clear. So if people are claiming the patriot act makes these blanket searches ok without probable cause, then either patriot act, or some of it’s components are unconstitutional, obviously. It is black and white, there is no room for argument.
I have a problem with Snowden’s credibility. He said he had the ability to access anyone’s phone conversations, e-mail etc. as he wished. I really doubt that. If has embellished his ability, it will probably deal a blow to those who rightfully want to do away with such widespread data collection.
IRS agent lecturing a pro life ministry. What exactly do the IRS employees thank that their job description includes?
http://freedomslighthouse.net/2013/06/10/audio-released-of-irs-employee-lecturing-pro-life-ministry-on-what-they-can-do-with-their-religious-beliefs-audio/
Here is Candidate (Liar) Obama vs. President(Liar) Obama on Civil Liberties
http://freedomslighthouse.net/2013/06/09/candidate-obama-in-2008-vs-president-obama-2013-on-security-and-civil-liberties-audio/
meanwhile – there is this news
http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20130611/NEWS02/306110032/City-lawyer-named-lead-Wilmington-s-Public-Works-Department