UPDATED: Can someone tell me
Why amnesty for illegals is such a bad thing? I guess I’m struggling to see why it is.
On a related note:
“Mike Castle Supports Amnesty for 12 million illegal immigrants!”
…is what you would expect the headline to read over on the delaware-wingnut-o-sphere.
Castle clearly wants to keep a very large pool of cheap labor for his corporate overloads, and yet all the macho men over at First State Politics are silent. No on-line petitions, no impotent bluster. What gives?
The Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act, a bill developed by Senators John McCain and Edward Kennedy and others, includes the so-called “Essential Worker Visa Program” with a new category called “H-5A.” This new category is for alien workers who will perform jobs otherwise not covered in the existing visa categories. It is a temporary visa that allows foreign workers to perform a job for initially three years, with a possible extension after that period. Spouses and children will be able to follow the principal applicant.
As for me, I think we need to attack the issue at the source and enact MUCH tougher penalties on employers who hire illegally.
Tags: 2008 Presidential, The Economy
I’m a bleeding-heart liberal but even I see that they are taking 12 million jobs and consuming taxpayer resources. I don’t begrudge any of them their jobs, and I don’t begrudge them school for their kids. But 12 million of them do have an overall effect of depressing wages for everybody. This is a big part of the reason real wages have not gone up significantly during the Bush administration.
I do not blame the illegals, but I do blame the employers and the pro-corporate politicians who are using illegal immigrants as a wedge to create a cheap-labor economy.
I don’t favor targeting the illegal workers but I do favor draconian enforcement on the employers. If the only way an employer can stay afloat is to hire illegals, they should go out of business. What the hell kind of capitalism is dependent on illegal labor?
I don’t mind paying more for goods if it means our economy gets back on a legal and honest footing.
Amnesty is bad because it will encourage more illegals to come and further depress wages.
… And in economic terms, amnesty removes some perceived risk for future illegals. Less risk means yet lower wages. After amnesty, wages will go down even further for illegals, and eventually for everybody else.
Plus, by the most (pardon the term) conservative estimate, we are looking at Social Security falling apart in twenty years. Adding 12+ million people to the payee line without expecting a little more payor out of them will accelerate that.
DV,
You seem to think that all illegal aliens are hard working, upstanding people simply looking for a job. Not so. 9 out of 10 on the Most Wanted list in L.A. are illegals. MS-13 is an extremely violent gang that’s importing thugs in significant numbers.
Illegals are lawbreakers. If you’re going to grant them amnesty why not for others? People who steal because they are cold or hungry. People who break into your house to live because they are homeless.
Illegals do not pay taxes that fund the services they consume. Schools, hospitals, law enforcement, (as noted Social Security), etc.
They only depress wages to market norms. Current wage rates are artificially inflated by minimum wage laws.
For all the complaints that the US is a country of haves and have nots, Mexico really is. A vast majority of the wealth is controlled by a handful of families. They rely on exporting of their citizens to keep things as they are. By allowing this labor migration we keep many Mexicans in poverty with little hope of improving their situation.
Lastly, working as an illegal is very bad for the workers themselves. They often work in unsafe and even dangerous jobs for little money.
Glancing over these comments, one sees the problem. Amnesty is not such a bad thing…………when it is shown towards oneself…. it only takes on a bad connotation when it is used for other human beings.
Since few corporations, businesses, or employers ever comment in forums such as these, these forums tend to be one sided and oppose amnesty.
But, as everyone pounces on this topic almost certain that they are endowed with the one right answer, the lack of discussion from the pro-business side is troubling. In other words we are arguing between the preacher and the choir in a vacuum without input from the congregation. A fresh perspective is needed.
Someone needs to ask and fully explore, just why both tiny family businesses and large corporate America are behind this push for amnesty. Doesn’t this go against both of their natural grains? Do they have some type of inside knowledge and know something about the quality of Mexican labor that we don’t. Is there by chance, some viable reason that they prefer the hiring of workers who came from Mexico over those who live on 25th Street?
So from what quarter comes this push for amnesty? Nothing occurs without a reason…….Can someone with experience in hiring Mexicans please offer their insight as to why, they feel this deal is good for the future of this country?
Only then, with both sides playing “Texas Hold’em” with cards on the table, can the rest of us determine what are the facts and then make a determination that will benefit America for the long term.
Can someone with experience in hiring Mexicans please offer their insight as to why, they feel this deal is good for the future of this country?
In other news: Bank robbers push for legalization of bank robbery! Muggers lobby for better access to little old ladies!
Anon (comment 6( you are being silly. Everyone knows that only with a superlative Republican majority in Congress can either of those two options pass.
Mexican immigration is much more complicated. The wisest thing ever said on this issue, was that further away from the border you get, the more insane the immigration policies become.
In other words, people who are closest to the problem tend to know the most about it. Border states are just as divided on this issue as is everyone else……..
Kavips,
in my opinion you have hit the nail on the head. There is an erie silence from business on the issue. I can’t put my finger on why they aren’t pushing for tougher laws against this.
The fact that the lawmakers in the middle are voting for this tells me there must be an awful lot of lobbying going on to get them to “support” this push for amnesty.
I don’t buy this bullshit that people like anon are pushing that illegal aliens are bank robbers or that all illegals are in gangs.
spare me ok, if that was the case then we wouldn’t be here giving amnesty for 12 million people.
Are these guys really surpressing wages? I mean are they really?
Stagnant wages? Made in USA
By Robert Kuttner | April 1, 2006
AS CONGRESS GRAPPLES with immigration policy, most experts agree that wide-open immigration slightly depresses wages, especially among unskilled workers. But the main reason for static wages has more do with policies made in the United States.
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Immigrants, coming from destitution at home, will work for less than American wages. And, if they are here illegally, they can’t defend themselves against subminimum wages and working conditions otherwise against the law.
Some of this is supply and demand — more workers competing for the same supply of jobs. But as former labor secretary Robert Reich has noted, if labor laws were enforced, immigrants would be less likely to depress wages. Moreover, the supply of jobs is not static. As immigrants enter the stream of commerce, they generate economic activities and jobs.
The Republican Party is now split between business groups who want cheap workers and jingoists who are just plain anti-immigrant. The nativist wing of the GOP plays both to the national security and economic fears of ordinary Americans.
The attacks of 9/11 did happen (though the attackers were not Mexican.) Wages of ordinary workers are in fact depressed (though immigrants are not the main cause.) Both sets of fears make it harder for Congress to legislate sensible policy.
It is a small miracle that four Republican senators on the Judiciary Committee broke ranks and voted for the McCain-Kennedy bill, which would toughen border enforcement and penalties for employers who employed undocumented workers, in exchange for a small ”guest worker” program as well as an earned path to permanent citizenship. Some Republicans support this because the House bill (no path to citizenship and a Berlin-style 700-mile wall along America’s southern border) would reverse whatever recent gains the Republicans have made among Hispanic voters.
However, it is worth leaving the immigration debate to explore the deeper causes of stagnant living standards that make so many Americans fearful of immigrants. In the current recovery, for the first time since the government has kept such statistics, median household income has lagged behind inflation in a recovery for five straight years.
Census data show median household income fell 3.8 percent or $1,700, from 1999 to 2004, according to economist Jared Bernstein of the Economic Policy Institute (on whose board I serve.) And this drop occurred during a period when average productivity rose three percent per year.
Moreover, as economist Jeff Madrick has observed in his book ”Why Economies Grow,” , the reality is worse because prices of commodities that make us middle class are rising much faster than inflation generally: housing, college education, health care, and also child care. These very rapid price increases are offset by falling costs of consumer electronics, basic food, and clothing, creating misleadingly low inflation measures.
It’s great that shirts are cheaper than a decade ago, and that we all have cell phones. But that doesn’t exactly substitute for a house, an affordable college education, or health care.
According to economist Bernstein, whose study covers the years 1991-2002, households in the middle fifth of the economy increased their incomes (not adjusted for inflation) by 41 percent. Inflation during that period, as measured by the government’s Consumer Price Index, went up 33 percent. That implies real living standards rose by a not very impressive 8 percent during more than a decade.
But hold on. During the same period, housing, healthcare, education, and child care went up 46 percent, or more than incomes. We cannot afford the big things we need and comfort ourselves with gadgets. The cheaper laptop, plasma TV, and GPS screen in your car make it appear statistically that living standards are not falling as much as they are.
The emblem of the new economy might be a 35-year-old, listening to an iPod, living in a house much smaller than the one he grew up in.
To use a favorite word of my grandmother’s, call it the Tchotchke Economy (a Tchotchke is a small trinket): Plenty of nifty, ever cheaper electronic stuff — and ever more costly housing, education, healthcare. An iPod is swell, but it doesn’t exactly make you middle class.
Why does this describe America in 2006? Don’t blame it on immigrants. Blame it on the people running the government, who have made sure that the lion’s share of the productivity gains go to the richest 1 percent of Americans. With different tax, labor, health, and housing policies, native-born workers and immigrants alike could get a fairer share of our productive economy — and still have the nifty iPods.
I don’t buy this bullshit that people like anon are pushing that illegal aliens are bank robbers or that all illegals are in gangs.
You got the point backwards. It’s the employers who are the bank robbers and muggers. Instead of talking about illegal immigrants we should be talking about “illegal employers.”
are they going to take away from my social security?
How crazy is that? don’t you have to put in to get something out?
wouldn’t an influx of 12 million TAXPAYERS be great for this country? Wouldn’t it help?
wouldn’t an influx of $5000 x 12,000,000 totaling 60,000,000,000.00 not be a bad thing?
Duffy,
I expected better from you. I would hope you wouldn’t lump illegals into one big bad apple cart. Not every illegal is a hard worker, hell not every American is…but the fact remains they are coming to America to make a better life for themselves right?
shame on you man, I would expect more from you. You are going down that Pube road of calling all Muslims extremists.
There is no easy solution.
someone please explain to me how you “evacuate” 12 million people too? logistically speaking it is pretty much impossible. (the war on Iraq doesn’t help)
#10 anon,
get a freaking handle already will ya! christ!
my apoligies
I don’t know anything about this so I should keep quiet, but I live out here in mushroom farm country and here’s what I see. Every morning there are vans that drive around and pick up brown-skinned men to deliver them to the farms to work. Every morning there are clean and pressed brown-skinned children out waiting for the school bus. And in the restaurants and other service establishments around here there are a lot of brown-skinned women busing tables and doing other minimum-wage jobs. They are all working. They are not gang members. We would miss them if they were all deported.
they are taliban Rebecca and they must be eradicated!
most likely they are draining our resources while (gasp) trying to make a better life for their children (how dare they)
no doubt they go to emergency room and never pay them back.
my guess is that the women aren’t in gangs but….(insert evil ominous voice) their men are! and that, that, that the mushroom farm is where the congregate and plot to take our women and eat our babies!
keep an eye on the darkies! their bad!
I know the Chester County Mexican community too. I would miss them too.
I would support a bill raising the quota of Mexicans and other Latin/Central Americans legally admitted to the US.
But the mushroom farms are trading in misery. I would gladly pay 50% or 100% more for mushrooms if it meant the employees were all legal and their health and safety were up to US standards.
Mushroom country used to smell much worse when they fermented the manure. Do you know why it doesn’t smell as bad up there anymore? Because after the McMansions were built, they began fermenting the poop in enormous tunnels underground. There are people working inside those tunnels.
if people like duffy get their wish, then getting rid of the illegals will really put a hurting on the middle class.
say bye-bye to corn 10 for $2.00, green peppers $2.00 a lb….go bye,bye
but sure, they are illegal and law breaker and that makes them evil!
hey didn’t Ferris Wharton pull a hit and run about 3 weeks ago? what happened to that law breaker?
say bye-bye to corn 10 for $2.00, green peppers $2.00 a lb….go bye,bye
And the price of cotton has been OUTRAGEOUS ever since the War of Northern Aggression. Damn that traitor Lincoln, attacking our way of life!
Rebecca, why are you assuming that the folks you see climbing into vans are going to “farms”.
Last I checked, they’re also heading to Fair Hill and Delaware Park holding down the $8-9/hour racehorse jobs or they’re landscaping $9-15/hour, paving $9-15/hour, window-washing $8-9/hour etc.
When I worked at a horse farm in Chesapeake City, they were shipping in 150 Mexicans each season. Some were hard-working and many were not. They younger ones have got just as much “attitude” as any US teen these days.
One man had a heart attack, was treated at Christina and released. The farm manager told me that they flew him back to Mexico to he could duck the $50K that he owed the hospital.
Commentary:
Just got off the phone with someone who works with Mexicans. The small corporation is owned by Delawareans, whose principal investors reside in Kent and Sussex Counties.
To prevent the hassle of Immigration poking around their office all day, I was asked to keep the information “non-specific”
This business employees roughly seventy five persons per establishment and there are five such establishments in Delaware and roughly five times that amount in surrounding states.
Out of those seventy five employed per establishment, approximately twenty five hail from Mexican ancestry. All are legal. The employer has documentation in employee’s files to prove it. Currently five of their management also hails from Mexican ancestry. Each of these rose up from the ranks, into management functions. Vis a Vis other companies, their quality scores are higher, their operations are more productive (based on hours, not dollars), and customer base more loyal. They excel in honors at corporate meetings. (What this has to do with illegal immigration I do not know, just reporting.)
Their opinion on the quality verses problems. The quality of Mexican labor is superior to that of uneducated Americans. I was told that this employer has Mexican engineers, dentists, pharmacist, all who have degrees in their native land, but make more doing “grunt labor” here in Delaware than being unemployed in Mexico. Through economization, and self denial and frugal spending, they are able to live here and support large families back home.
Are they responsible? Lateness, absences, call outs, are extremely rare. The Mexican contingent shows up 99% of the time, and this companies other workforce, has a timeliness factor of 64%.
What about theft: his breakdown. Whites are the worst being out for themselves, 80% are thieves. Blacks who have more to lose, are much better, at 18%. He would rank Mexicans at an astounding 0%% honesty level, as far as he knew. They stand to lose so much if they are accused, arrested and deported. They police their own I was told. When asked about these skewed numbers I was told we were talking about unskilled labor. Almost the only whites that applied were drug abusers. Blacks were representative of their ethnic group, and Mexicans who made it this far were the cream of the crop.
Number one problem: Traffic stops. One speeding ticket can disrupt the business, almost shutting it down, more than anything else. Mostly due to the surprise factor. Sometimes when a Mexican worker is sick, they will have another skilled worker show up in their place, able and ready to work.
What about the stealing of our Social Security? This employer pays no one under the table. Every worker, whether Mexican or American, has FICA and Medicare, both State and Federal income taxes deducted from their checks. These monies go to the respective Treasuries from where the are never claimed, since the Mexicans rarely file for refunds. They do however use Medicare to cover Medical costs, but do not collect Social Security or get refunds on overpayment of taxes. These taxes are used to subsidize government spending just as yours or mine are. Several Mexicans own homes in Delaware, but most rent.
Does he benefit from cheap labor? This employer pays market rates for his labor. He pays Mexican labors legally so he is prevented from paying less than minimum wage. His starting rate is currently roughly $1.35 higher than minimum wage for an entry level position. This person pays raises based on increased skills. As a worker becomes competent in another capacity, his wage climbs one dollar an hour per function he can perform. He is paying his top workers 13 dollars and hour, which is 3 dollars an hour over industry standard, but claims he can do so because of increased efficiency. One Mexican can do the labor of two Americans he said.
What about bringing in someone new who was not Mexican. He does in some areas that deal with public, but for them to work in the production area, they would have to be bilingual. The official language is English, I was told, but the language used to function, was not. This person said they joke that English is like cash in the Visa commercial, it gums things up.
Any final comments. This person said that he personally was impressed by the work ethic of this immigrant labor. He thought he worked hard, until he saw what they were willing to do. He said that if America was able to somehow bring in this group, and allow them the same rights as current American by removing their “illegal” status, then the labor market would return to normal. His comment was that from his observations, more white Americans were hired under the table to skirt the paying of benefits than were Mexicans. Was he positive his workers were all legal. He was no expert in forged documents, he said, but to his knowledge, and he had the proof on file to prove it, they were.
What was his take on amnesty. America could not afford NOT to grant amnesty at some point within the next five years. If we didn’t, we would be priced off the market for everything we made.
So there it is:
At least here is a conversation starter to light up the boards. Don’t know if I believe everything he said, but at least I gained some insight into his perspective.
Proofreader error: this person rated Mexican honesty level at 100% meaning the thievery level was 0%. Sorry for the typo.
kavips: we were talking about ILLEGAL immigrants. Your discussion was about LEGAL immigrants. The employer you spoke with is following the rules. Would that they all did.
“Sometimes when a Mexican worker is sick, they will have another skilled worker show up in their place, able and ready to work.”
I know that to be a fact actually. It is funny b/c my brother would tell me one day the guy wouldn’t show up another guy would and say, my cousin is sick (to a translator) then the guy would bust his ass until his “cousin” would show back up.
anon,
Was he positive his workers were all legal. He was no expert in forged documents, he said, but to his knowledge, and he had the proof on file to prove it, they were
read a closer…
I work for a landscaping company. The owner wants to hire illegals because it’s cheap labor. Any service-oriented business makes its profit off of labor. He doesn’t want to hire Americans because he wouldn’t be able to pay them $8.50/hr to hump block, soils, mulch, trees, rock, etc. in 100 degree heat in the middle of the summer. That is the ONLY reason why business owners want illegals — they are making money off of their sweat. The average american worker can’t support a family off of $8.50 an hour — in Mexico these wages stretch much farther. He’d have to pay an american $10 – $12 (most likely even more) an hour to do the same job. It’s simple mathematics.
response to 22 anon. illegal vrs. legal
how do we know? how do we know for sure?
Answer is we don’t, because there is no system in place. We need a system in place. We can tweak it later.
Currently the US admits more LEGAL immigrants than all other countries of the world combined, we also give citizenship to more immigrants than all other nations combined.
But according to jason it is “jingoists who are just plain anti-immigrant” for anyone to believe in secure borders, or that our imigration laws should be enforced.
the last time we tried amnesty, we were told it was 1.5 million people, turned out it was over three. Now we have “12 million”… the first amnesty worked so well, we have ten times as many illegal immigrants.
Viva the United States of North America!!
Take away the borders and you take away the problem. Allow the free flow of labor and commerce so the magic of the free market system will do its thing. We’re all North Americans now.
What conservative could be against that plan?
Steamy –
When you enclose something in quotes and attribute it to me you give Dealwareliberal readers the impression that I said it.
Answer is we don’t, because there is no system in place. We need a system in place. We can tweak it later.
Funny how the credit card companies have figured out a system of instant verification, but employers can’t.
you posted it
The point is we need to increase the risk and costs of hiring illegals until it becomes worth it for employers to figure out how to reliably verify the status of their employees. Right now it is too easy for them to wash their hands of it and say “I’m not an expert in forged documents…” Yeah, tell it to the judge.
annon 32,
it’s worse than that, an employer that is too agressive in scrutinizing his hispanic aplicants/employees can expect a lawsuit from the EEOC.
an employer that is too agressive in scrutinizing his hispanic aplicants/employees can expect a lawsuit from the EEOC.
The way to avoid that is to scrutinize everybody. The credit card companies have that figured out already. Can an illegal pass a simple credit check? that might be a good place to start.
Employers will say it costs too much to run a credit check on all applicants. Fine – then we need to make it more expensive to NOT run the check.
OK, maybe the credit system is not the best database to use. But the point is that when there is money at risk, a verification system will be found. Right now there is no money at risk for hiring illegals.
DV asked: someone please explain to me how you “evacuate” 12 million people too? logistically speaking it is pretty much impossible. (the war on Iraq doesn’t help)
The Nazi’s were only able to “evacuate” 6 million people.
I grew up in a rural area and even packed peaches for a while on a farm where I was about the only there who couldn’t speak Spanish.
Now, admittedly, most of those with me were Puerto Rican (so definitely legal). So I can’t really speak to Mexicans.
But personally I have no problem with Mexicans coming to this country to work. I just think they need to do it legally. That border (and the Canadian one was well) should have been sealed up years ago and yet it still isn’t. The U.S. can continue to be a country of immigrants but we HAVE TO KNOW WHO IS COMING IN AND GOING OUT! It is that simple. Just making all of these people magically legal doesn’t solve the problem. In theory we should then find out who they are but in reality that will not happen. More will come in hoping for the next round of Amnesty or by trying to make it in this round. The enforcement part of this bill comes much MUCH later.
This is actually an issue where both Dems and Reps can agree on…but the agreement that came is opposite of what the majority on either side want. SEAL THE BORDER. GET THAT DONE FIRST. Then start admitting the legal workers and dealing with the illegal ones.
I was about the only there who couldn’t speak Spanish.
You should have paid closer attention in class and maybe done a homework assignment or two.
DV: as usual you’re reading into things that aren’t there. All illegal aliens are, by definition, criminals. They violated the law by crossing the border *illegally*. However, I never said that all illegal immigrants are *violent* criminals.
I’d wager that most of them are not. However, those that are pose a very real risk to the rest of us. I have no problem with immigration we just need to know who we’re letting in. This “Visa Express” crap that allows Saudis to come in with barely a glance cost us dearly. Similarly, drug gangs are moving huge amounts of drugs across the border along with thugs to protect their investments.
I’ve said before: Punish the employers. The Small Business Assoc. is a very powerful PAC that routinely twists the arms of any GOP’ers that get the idea that they’re going to institute controls on employers.
Solution:
1. Enforce law against hiring illegal aliens
2. Anyone convicted of a felony who is illegal is deported and banned from re-entering the country
3. Create worker program that allows for migrant labor. Applications only available in home country. Background check required. Taxes witheld, health insurance required. Anyone overstaying are PNG’d back home and cannot return
4. Elminate minimum wage laws.
The quality of Mexican labor is superior to that of uneducated Americans.
*
everything being relative, huh
Sorry I do not buy this crap about superiority of labor and I have worked plenty of low wage jobs side by side with plenty of immigrants, legal or not.
Poverty in the U.S. of A.
The US ranks third in the world behing Mexico and Russia for percentage of population below the median income.
Twelve percent of the United States lives below the poverty line. A family of four bringing in less than $20K per year is considered below the poverty line. One person, less than $9,800 per year.
The US is second (22.4%) to Mexico (26.2%) in child poverty.
“2. Anyone convicted of a felony who is illegal is deported and banned from re-entering the country”
this is already the law… but since our borders are wide open, these criminals can walk back in.
“The US ranks third in the world behing Mexico and Russia for percentage of population below the median income.”
Now I am just a dumb conservative (so I have been repeatedly told), but if I remember anything from college economics I am pretty sure this is incorrect. In fact, I would say the pecentage of population living below the MEDIANincome is exactly the same as every other country’s (50%).
Semantics aside, this is hardly an apples to apples comparison. You say 12% live below the poverty line making us the 3rd worst in the world. This only works if the poverty line is the same across countries. I would venture to say that there are numerous countries which have 98% or more of their residents living below OUR poverty line.
I am not saying we shouldn’t see how we can reduce the percentage, but then you guys will just change the poverty line again. Yes , $20,000 or less is extremely tough to live on especially depending on where you live (like NYC or anywhere in CA).
But do not quote phony numbers like above as a way to run down our country. The poor in this country are still a lot better off than the “rich” of several other countries.
Besides, the government already takes more than half of what we make. What more do you want? Should I just sign my entire friggin check over…..Oh yeah…silly me….that IS what you want…
Let me step in and clarify what I think David tried to say.
The US ranks 3rd in percentage of population living below 50% of median income. So if the median income in the US is 40K, 17% of the population earns less than 20K.
I also suspect that it doesn’t make you any less hungry to know that there are plenty of people in your country eating just fine.
Finally, we don’t really want any more of your check, we want more of the top 1%’s checks. They have certainly benefitted from the laws of this country, the stability, the infrastructure, etc. They should contribute more than the bottom 50%.
“Finally, we don’t really want any more of your check, we want more of the top 1%’s checks.”
But that does not work from an economical standpoint. It was JFK himself that figured that out. When he took office the top 1% (and a believe more) were paying over 90% in taxes. It was stiffling business. So he cut the tax rate down to 67% and the economy boomed. It is called “trickle-down” economics or “Reganonmics” as you scoff. But it was JFK who figured it out.
So if we raise the taxes on the top 1%, you might achieve a short-term gain, but a VERY short one. It will result in an overall economic slowdown that will trigger recession, increases in unemployment, and all kinds of Carter-era memories. I think that will actually result in your 17% INCREASING not decreasing.
We don’t live in a vaccumn. The Robin Hood plan does not have the effect you think it will.
So he cut the tax rate down to 67% and the economy boomed.
Clinton raised taxes slightly and the economy boomed. Your point?
Deficit spending provides a better explanation for GDP growth under JFK, Reagan, and Bush.
The top rate for taxing wages is now 35%.
But the top 1% don’t get much wages. They get investment income which is taxed at 20% (or 0% for certain instruments).
And the Social Security tax for the middle class is 12.8%. For the top 1% the rate is 0.00-something%
Don’t bother anon. Chris can only recite tired and debunked GOP talking points and then claim you refuse to “debate” him after you get weary of hearing the same tape loop over an over again.
“Don’t bother anon. Chris can only recite tired and debunked GOP talking points and then claim you refuse to “debate” him after you get weary of hearing the same tape loop over an over again.”
So when you spit out tired and debunked LIBERAL talking points that is considered fact? You can explain it away any which way you need to to make yourself feel better. The fact is when tax rates are lowered, tax revenues ultimately increase. Is there a point of diminishing returns? Of course. If we cut the tax rate to “0” then obviously there would be no revenue.
Anon says that the top wages tax rate is 35%. Great. Now lets add state and local taxes, sales tax (if out of Delaware), real estate transfer taxes (DE is one of the highest…as I just found out). Then there is SSI and numerous other taxes. When all is said and done…what are we really bringing home? 10%? 5%?
So by all means lets raise taxes more! Hell, just take my whole check. Then I would have to rely on the government for help…and then the liberal dream world will have been realized. 100% government dependence.