Oh no he dint!!
First, Senator Obama called out Flip Romney and MIA McCain for their support of Bush’s open ended war.
This country is united in our support for our troops, but we also owe them a plan to relieve them of the burden of policing someone else’s civil war. Governor Romney and
Senator McCain clearly believe the course we are on in Iraq is working, but I do not.And if there ever was a reflection of that it’s the fact that Senator McCain required a flack jacket, ten armored Humvees, two Apache attack helicopters, and 100 soldiers with rifles by his side to stroll through a market in Baghdad just a few weeks ago.
Governor Romney and Senator McCain are still supporting a war that has cost us thousands of lives, made us less safe in the world, and resulted in a resurgence of al-Qaeda. It is time to end this war so that we can redeploy our forces to focus on the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 and all those who plan to do us harm.
Then “Senator” John McCain having cast his first vote since December of 1989 and promptly issued the following statement:
“While Senator Obama’s two years in the U.S. Senate certainly entitle him to vote against funding our troops, my service and experience combined with conversations with military leaders on the ground in Iraq lead me to believe that we must give this new strategy a chance to succeed because the consequences of failure would be catastrophic to our nation’s security.
“By the way, Senator Obama, it’s a ‘flak’ jacket, not a ‘flack’ jacket.”
Oh snap!! That got him. – OR – Maybe not. McCain has all the credibility of a box of crayons these days.
Tags: 2008 Presidential
You’re publicizing the fact that Obama wants to be CINC and doesn’t know what a flak jacket is? This is supposed to help your argument?
McCain is an American hero. He will always have credibility on matters of war and peace. He earned it by being tortured by the Vietnamese. You may think he’s wrong, but don’t pretend that Obama’s two years in the Senate give him more credibility than McCain just because you agree with his position.
You are publicizing the fact that you don’t know the difference between a typo and actual ignorance?
You are publicizing the fact that you don’t know the difference between a typo and actual ignorance?
*
ditto, sheesh
Could you please detail the security Obama has in the U.S. during his movements in a non-war zone? I believe he’s the first candidate to receive Secret Service protection (not counting Hillary’s protection as a former first lady, so that information should be available) please include armored vehicles, police escorts, small caliber weapons and personnel and equipment on alert but not present.
One other thing. Could you please highlight how many people are killed in the United States daily. Maybe you can add a ticker on your homepage. The United States on one side and Iraq on the other. Let’s compare the two daily.
Thanks
good idea J. why don’t you get a blog and get that done.
Go back to the McCain line in comment one.
I believe your second paragraph starts with:
“McCain is an American hero.” I think that when every normal American reads that, the same thought pops into their collective minds: that word “is” must be a typo. Perhaps you should have typed “was”…….. as in: Brittney Spears “was” a famous pop star.
Sometimes the personal choices one takes, can increase orin both of these cases, decrease one’s stature.
McCain, who historically will be noted more as a hero for standing up to Bush in 2000, instead, has chosen to give up his hero status by groveling for the anointed Conservative mantle. It seems to be playing poorly. Perhaps he should instead, shave his head….
“You are publicizing the fact that you don’t know the difference between a typo and actual ignorance?”
I’m going to go out on a limb here and assume that Obama has never worn a flak jacket.
Or, as one of McCain’s aides said, “Obama wouldn’t know the difference between an RPG and a bong.”
And no, kavips, McCain IS an American hero, and will be until the day he dies for what he did. On Memorial Day weekend perhaps you should be more respectful of that.
“good idea J. why don’t you get a blog and get that done.”
Maybe some day.
Point I was trying to make.
The argument is weak. Many of the posts I’m reading lately regarding complete withdrawal, regardless of the cost, doesn’t allow room for the masses to join the crowd. The masses will be responsible for bringing the troops home, not someone screaming “it’s over everybody run”.
What instead should be the reasoning for moving on from this particular front, is the lack of our leaders to distinguish between real anti U.S. military targets and Iraqi criminals. If we could form a list of Al Qaeda in Iraq and work joint operations with the Iraqi and other coalition forces to hunt down, kill and capture anti U.S. (Iraqi’s would have they’re own anti government list like every other nation), then we have legitimate goals and an opportunity to meet them. However, keep in mind, the effort would mirror that against organized crime, so it will never actually end, you just render them ineffective or change their role in the society they’re in.
This allows for the masses to join the argument (me included). I’m not going to join an argument that says give up because Nathan Hale is hanging from a tree or Washington’s men have no boots (let alone up-armored vehicles)…can you imagine. Come on even if you hate this President and even more this war, you have to elevate your arguments and add to the solution. Don’t be pussies and say I’m not playing anymore because you “think” we’re losing.
Dave’s comment makes it official. I had hoped that the GOP was going to break from Bush at some point – but they all “all in” for Bush’s nonsensical “we have to stay because we are there” philosophy.
We knew this about McCain, but I guess I hoped Romney would have a new idea.
I’m looking for anything in my comments that even relates to what you are saying.
So…I can see by your comment that you have no problem with the violence in Darfur or have any care in the world about the fate of the piping plover.
Since the media reports “Iraq” deaths and does not differentiate between crime and war, these would be numbers Rosie can put out there and exaggerate ten fold too. Potential Rosie Quote “There have been over 450,000 Americans killed since 2003 by ____ (fill in the blank)
I added the Rape statistic because the Soldiers and Marines killing all our folks here in the U.S. (assume they are the only ones capable) are raping at 7 x their murder rate.
United States http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
Year Murder Rape
2003 16,528 93,883
2004 16,148 95,089
2005 16,692 93,934
* Actual war on U.S. soil are expected to drive up these numbers
Point:
We all want out of Iraq, now let’s figure out and propose real solutions and stop with the name calling, fear and loathing that does nothing to help the situation.
The only American who should give up on anything is Dan Quayle, I mean John Edwards. He is in a nose dive and should release his folks to someone with a shot at being elected.
Or, as one of McCain’s aides said, “Obama wouldn’t know the difference between an RPG and a bong.”
Obama should challenge McCain and his aides to a spelling bee, mano a mano.
One cannot help but notice that those supporters of the war continue to act like they are in the middle of a “game”.
“Don’t be pussies and say I’m not playing anymore because you “think” we’re losing.”
Not to pick on one comment, but the trend is there, emitting from the White House, down through Fox News and Hannity, to their very lowliest blogger.
If those quick to quip such patriotic comments, had perhaps had their son or daughter in harm’s way, and had to question whether or not this cause was worth the loss of the world’s most precious commodity, and still thought we needed to be there “just to save face”; perhaps their arguments would ring less hollow.
But considering their lack of sacrifice, for their continuance to propose that we prolong this disaster, is a rather shallow argument.
We have lost the war. 95% of the Iraqis want us out. How can any thoughtful Republican expect to find victory against such numbers?
Bottom line is they can’t. They want to keep the war going so they can say it was a Democrat, that turned tail and ran, not a Republican.
Meanwhile another IED goes off, not by some terrorist, but by some normal citizen who perhaps has lost his children and finally is fed up with this administration’s incompetence and bungling in their country.
Kavips says
“One cannot help but notice that those supporters of the war continue to act like they are in the middle of a “game”.”
You choose to group anyone who actually wants to work on an exit strategy rather than collapse everything and run as a “supporter” of the war. Your akin to these corporations that just file Chapter 7 rather than attempt to save jobs and potentially a company. F the people right? That’s what you’d be doing but you ignore that point because it doesn’t make you feel good thinking you’re that kind of person does it?
You deserve to live in a deppresed state when you mock effort built on hope. This nation of ours wouldn’t exist if it followed leaders who just “quit” rather than “exit”. There is a difference.
As I stated earlier, I support an exit, let’s now offer solutions and our ideas on how to do it.
Kavips goes on to say
“If those quick to quip such patriotic comments, had perhaps had their son or daughter in harm’s way, and had to question whether or not this cause was worth the loss of the world’s most precious commodity, and still thought we needed to be there “just to save face”; perhaps their arguments would ring less hollow.”
I have, have you?
First Dave, then J:
on McCain: Memorial Day should be a day to remember those heroes who fought. It should also be a day for self inspection: is one doing all that is possible to honor our nation’s servicemen? I grew up hearing stories of Russians on the outside of Berlin, mowing down armed twelve year boys in combat who lined up to fight for the Fatherland, and then being sick about it. Does this nation have to go that far before we realize that “blind obedience” is not the chosen route to our nation’s salvation? I write these comments now, before Memorial Day, because the topic is so fresh and clear. Three days later, something else will have taken over the number one topic. Such is the life of a blogger, as I am sure you know.
McCain was a hero, as I said. He ran against Bush.
But some interesting assumptions are embedded in your comment number 1. To review, you said rather eloquently:
McCain is an American hero. He will always have credibility on matters of war and peace. He earned it by being tortured by the Vietnamese. You may think he’s wrong, but don’t pretend that Obama’s two years in the Senate give him more credibility than McCain just because you agree with his position
This requires some analysis. Sentence two implies that being tortured gives one credibility on war and peace. Obviously another commenter is going to quip something like “that line of logic leads one to assume all prisoners on Guantanamo Bay are now global experts in statesmanship on issues of war and peace.” There, it has already said with your kind indulgence, and we can now remain focused on the real issue.
The real issue that must be discussed and Memorial Day is perhaps the proper venue to do so, is whether or not McCain’s philosophy on the current war and the future peace, have a solid rational basis for it’s conception, or is it founded on his personal whims and emotions. To beat Hube to the punch, does it come from Spock, or Dr. McCoy? If one stops and thinks, McCain was locked in a four by four cell during those years while the entire world was debating over the ending of an unnecessary war. He missed most of the argument; for at that time he was focused on other important matters. If you have read his story, you understand what he underwent at the hands of his captors.
I am sure someone will interject here and rattle that demeaning McCain is the same as demeaning our troop’s sacrifice. To do so would be rather silly on their part, because nothing could be further from the truth. McCain is running for president. Any American worth his salt needs to question all presidential contender’s motives and see how they stack up to their own.
The possibility still exists out there, and rightly so, that someone who was too young to fight in Vietnam, but old enough to read about it, could be open to a wider breadth of options, than someone who was confined to a four by four cage hidden in a Southeast Asia suburbia. For those of you who know the story of McCain, who was released at the end of our negotiated settlement with North Vietnam, the particular irony stands out that if we had pursued the policies and direction that McCain wants us to go in Iraq, and applied that to Vietnam while McCain was still there, he may have never made it back. But at that time we chose to apply in Vietnam, the very same strategy that was recently recommended by Obama for dealing with Iraq, and McCain, lo and behold, is able to be with us today.
Dave, as a Republican chair we know and expect you to hold your party line. You would be silly not to…… But the secret is already out that you do indeed have deeper values and will sometimes turn on one of your own should doing so better the lives of the rest of us in this fair state.
Just if in the future, you make a claim like this, “He will always have credibility on matters of war and peace. He earned it by being tortured by the Vietnamese” don’t expect it to go unchallenged.
To “J”
As for your question, I soon will have two who may be sent over there if things do not change. I have no problem with defending our country. I have no problem with extending our influence….all are necessary. I supported the campaigns in Grenada, Panama, Gulf War One, as well as our clandestine operations in South Africa, Libya, Syria, Kurdistan, Philippines, Columbia, and Mongolia, and our most recent invasion of Afghanistan. My problem is this war. Why should my son and daughter die to make Cheney a little bit richer?
When you can effectively answer that, I may see some credibility in your views.
You make some interesting assumptions ( Ha,I guess I do as well) but for further clarification we are not that far off in our fixation over a solution for Iraq. We already have a workable solution, one that was initially proposed by Jay Garner, Bush’s man to rebuild Iraq, and immediately thereafter, nixed by Dick Cheney. You can find more information here
with further comments here here, here, here, here, here, and here.
As to why many of us Americans see this war as being somewhat different, requiring perhaps a different means of extraction, you can look here, here, here, here, here, and here.
I hope this helps you to see why many of us view this war in Iraq as having little to do with our nation’s security and is instead a far cry different from those engagements one rightly insists were necessary. The deal breaker is one word: Cheney.
Oops I think my answer got bumped into moderation…….
“Oops I think my answer got bumped into moderation…….”
We can acknowledge the mistakes of our leadership and still work toward the best we can get with what’s left. I look forward to putting our ideas out there together.
rescued from moderation. I am glad for that. Thanks, kavips.
Apologies:
Due to a delay imposed by the moderation properties of the WordPress.server, and the continuance of dialog while the comment was held in suspended animation, I have the sickening feeling that someone has proffered up an olive branch and I, alas, with combat boots have stomped all over it.
Not my usual nature. But I am often taken aback when someone offers to work across the aisle, and sometimes humbled. Although immediately once the offer is made, I recognize cooperation is truly the right way to go, being imprisoned in an aggressive Type A personality, I, unfortunately, rarely think of it first……
I kindly offered my solutions to Iraq, embedded within the links of comment #15. Being always in search of the one best solution that will get things done, I am sincere in wishing to hear your side’s perspective on which of these options you would find to be workable, and on which of these you would delete out of hand.
kavips — you have an extremely high opinion of yourself, don’t you?
McCain grew up a son and grandson of prominent military men. He served, fought, was captured, tortured, refused to be released when it would have been a PR gain for the enemy, was tortured worse, eventually got out, came home, ran for Congress and then the Senate where he became an expert on foreign policy and military affairs. He now has a son in the military, probably in Iraq.
For you to say he was a hero, in the past tense, and that he earned that title not by all of the above, but instead because he ran against Bush, reveals you to be a fool and nothing more.
“the particular irony stands out that if we had pursued the policies and direction that McCain wants us to go in Iraq, and applied that to Vietnam while McCain was still there, he may have never made it back.”
He knows this and yet he still believes what he believes, much to the detriment of his own Presidential campaign.
“But at that time we chose to apply in Vietnam, the very same strategy that was recently recommended by Obama for dealing with Iraq, and McCain, lo and behold, is able to be with us today.”
And Vietnam is regarded to this day as one of the greatest failures in American history.
After extensive deep, and careful consideration of your opening statement in comment #20, I have regretfully come to the humble conclusion that you perhaps are correct.
I’m afraid that I do suffer from that mortal affliction.
It appears to be an unfortunate flaw that I seem to share with a lot of other people. In fact, some psychologists have had the nerve to actually propose that one’s having a high opinion of oneself, is actually healthy. One can only wonder what they were thinking?
I try to temper this newfound belief, to which you have led me to realize I now own, by holding steadfast to the principal that most others, created by the same God as I, are more than likely to be endowed with an even richer set of facilities, than I was fortunate to have been given. At least that is the lesson I have learned through my life’s experiences. For every time I search for wisdom, it tends to be found in other people, not myself.
In fact so much so, that were I to rank myself among the wise, I no doubt would be fortunate just to stand on the bottom rung. Just happy to be there, I would be.
But from that perspective of always looking up at others, one can learn a lot by watching other people. For instance, there are those who have far too much pride. So intent are they upon how their persona is perceived that they sometimes respond without thinking,…… instead of stopping to see whether or not the threat warrants a response or not.
But fortunately for us all, there are those others who are just the opposite. Sometimes, at great personal cost and sacrifice to themselves, those brave souls will risk all,with nary a care on how they are perceived, to take a stand against a sea of wrong doing, and spectators, amazed at that person’s lack of cowardice, cast their lot and join with him to make great changes happen.
I heard and still believe that there was one of those rare men down Sussex County way…………but then again, myself being a “fool and nothing more”,……..it is probably better that one shouldn’t put too much emphasis on what I think……………
He is probably just like everyone else……
(lol)
Wow, like the Beatles song “Number 9” a really strange thing happens when you play FSP’s comments in backwards order.
Start with:
And Vietnam is regarded to this day as one of the greatest failures in American history.
Ok.
Now keep in mind that how we got so deep in Vietnam was through constant escalation, the very same plan McCain wants to force on us now. Such a plan surely will not work……
Then you go with:
He knows this and yet he still believes what he believes, much to the detriment of his own Presidential campaign.
Now consider that most military men are opposed to the surge, and argue that other means, political and economic, are needed to contain Iraq. But funds earmarked for both of those endeavors, get sucked up by sending more troops……
Finally this irony, considering that McCain’s view is directly opposite those on the ground who are responsible for maintaining order in the middle of chaos.
McCain grew up a son and grandson of prominent military men. He served, fought, was captured, tortured, refused to be released when it would have been a PR gain for the enemy, was tortured worse, eventually got out, came home, ran for Congress and then the Senate where he became an expert on foreign policy and military affairs. He now has a son in the military, probably in Iraq.
Surely he would support the troops right? Why is he proposing the opposite of what they on the ground in Iraq, say?
Senator McCain is, and always has been, a politician of the worse sort. I feel the man has little personal integrity. He remains out there on a limb with President Bush. (aka “The Decider”) Would we really want another President who compleatly ignores the will of the American people? Aside from having no regard for the electorate’s maindate to end the war, he has little if any self esteem. In the 2000 presidential campaign President Bush won the South Carolina primary by spreading a malicious lie about McCain. TV ads falsely alleged that the Senator had fathered a child in South Carolina by a black woman. Now McCain has nothing but glowing accolades for President Bush. How sad that he holds himself in such low self esteem. Oh, by the way, Senator Obama does not require a critic on his spelling. You, Senator McCain, are sorely in need of an understanding of the failed Iraq policy which has sent 3,500 GIs to their untimely deaths!!