The Fundamental Problem for the Teabaggers
… and why they will never be taken seriously.
Andrew Sullivan:
Here’s a test: when you see as many posters lambasting Bush and Cheney and the GOP for getting us into this crisis in the first place, I will take these people seriously as genuine small government non-partisan conservatives and independents. In so far as they can pressure the Congress and president into taking the debt seriously in the future, good for them. In so far as they are proposing no practical solutions, and echo truly disturbing hatred of a president barely eight months in office, facing huge crises on all fronts, they are doing their own cause far more harm than good.
You see, these protesters are not against big government, or “intrusive” government, or deficit spending. All of them were perfectly fine with President Bush and his $1.5 trillion dollar tax cut, his trillion dollar wars, and his $200 billion dollar prescription drug benefit. They were all fine with, and in fact demanded, the government intrude into the personal tragedy of Terri Schiavo and interfere with her end of life decisions. They are all fine with, and in fact demand, government intrusion into the personal reproductive choices of every woman everywhere. They are all fine with, and in fact demand, that the government intrude upon all of our Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Amendment rights.
No, they are not against big intrusive government. No, they are not against deficit spending. No, they are not against government tackling healthcare reform.
They are against President Obama. Their hatred of him is the only unifying idea behind the movement. Whether it is racial, or they just don’t like a Democrat in office, I don’t care. But the idea that they have principles is nonsense, for it that were so, they would have all been out protesting President Bush for the very same transgressions they accuse President Obama of.
This whole Tea Party “movement” (and I mean that in the bowel, not the political sense) has never been anything more than just a catch-all for anyone who can’t accept Obama as President, or who can’t accept any federal government at all. If I thought that today would act as a cathartic event for them and help “get it out of their system”, I’d actually think it was a good idea. But we all know they won’t calm down until there’s someone more like them in the White House again. (And by “more like them”, I mean Republican, of course. š )
Gee — Andy must be smokin’ his pot again.
Well said. The hypocricy of the GOP is simply stunning.
What also is striking is that these people seem to feel entitled to force the rest of us — with guns if necessary — to do … what, exactly? No plans, no ideas, no willingness to give up their Medicare and Social Security, the biggest part of the “socialism/marxism” they allegedly decry.
They act like 4 year olds who haven’t had enough sleep. They know they’re angry, tired and miserable, and it’s all your fault, but they can’t articulate why.
Of course, we usually don’t give our petulant 4 year olds loaded guns.
RwR, ur comment has to do with what? Please try to stay on topic.
It’s why they yell chants. Try and debate them and it becomes clear they got nothin. They are simply following orders. If you question them, or point out that medicare is a government run program the only response they have is to stomp their feet and yell “Socialist” louder.
They aren’t interested in a discussion, of any kind – only the mother of all temper tantrums.
Watching them being interviewed, or speaking at town hall meetings, is both funny and frightening. These people have been whipped into a frenzy… and they have no idea why. Other than they hate Obama. Yes, it really is that simplistic, but this behavior is quite the norm for simple minds.
I’m interested in that the conservatives that visit DL defend these wing nuts. I mean these protesters are off-the-charts crazy. Don’t they know that these wing nuts totally destroy any credibility they have?
“Itās why they yell chants.”
Drill, baby, drill!
The Republican Party uses and needs these parroting zombies. They’re all they have left. These “crazies” are their base and they are Dr. Frankenstein.
The scary thing is, like Mary Shelley’s creation, they are close to losing control of their monster. One wrong word and the monster will (and has) turn on them.
Exactly, Mike! The majority of the people chanting “drill, baby, drill” actually believe the US has the capability to supply us with all the oil we’d ever need, and then some.
Actually the Far Right loves some big government, they can’t get enough of military spending. They give lip service to Libertarian ideas of non-interventionism overseas but mention the word War! and there out in pick up trucks waving enormous flags and yelling traitor at anyone who disagress.
wikwox,
I find it depressing that there are only two things the U.S. can agree to spend money on in a bipartisan manner: war and tax cuts. Even tax cuts aren’t completely bipartisan – Republicans voted against tax cuts for the middle and lower class just this year.
nemski,
I totally agree with you. Republicans embracing the nuts is only going to hurt them in the long run. However Republicans have decided to go with short term strategy over long term strategy. I don’t doubt that they can get some gains out of firing up the base. However, that base is shrinking and aging and alienating everyone else.
I’m not sure what’s going on with some of the teabaggers. They are convinced that they’re completely right even when they’re completely wrong, like when Rep. Wilson yelled “you lie!” when Obama was stating something truthful.
If this is true then I’ll take Democrats seriously when they take shared responsibility for 9/11 when a different president was in office a scant 8 months when a crisis hit. One that had also been growing unchecked during his predecessors 8 year term.
I remember those years, Duffy. The most important national issue to the repubs wasn’t terrorism – it was who was telling the truth about a blow job. Obama has “kept us safe” longer than Bush.
Iāll take Democrats seriously when they act like Democrats.
9/11: Republican president abandons aggressive anti-terror effort of previous Democratic administration (stopped bajinka plot, millenium plot, etc, narrowly missed when bombing Bin Laden’s house), US pays price
2008-2009 Recession: Previous Republican president creates recession, Current Democratic administration has already stabilized it (note that I didn’t say “fixed” – recessions don’t just magically disappear).
I don’t care whether or not you take Democrats seriously, Duffy, because no one takes loons like you seriously. Disbelieve in whatever facts you want to.
Oh puhleez. As much as the Republicans intrude on our civil rights, Obama is about to make a historic intrusion on our fiscal liberty. Equal health care for all? Where is the incentive to do better in society if that happens? So I can pay for healthcare for someone who lives off the government?
The real problem here is that our society as a whole has come to expect something for nothing. The majority of those voters wanted Obama to save them from themselves.
DO the right thing. Vote Libertarian, and make society accountable for itself.
I’ll start taking Republicans talk about terrorism seriously when they admit that terrorism is not only al Qaeda and related groups, but also domestic rightwing groups.
Right, Darren, because everyone knows how easy it is to shop around chemotherapy regimes when you have cancer.
“If this is true then Iāll take Democrats seriously when they take shared responsibility for 9/11 when a different president was in office a scant 8 months”
What about the “different president” that was in office 25 years ago and helped to fund and build al-Qaeda, which would turn around and then use that funding, those weapons, and combine it with a hatred of America so deep they could conceive of such acts. Where’s your blame for Ronald Reagan, Duffy?
The way I remember it was that no one (except for a few fringe groups) started out blaming Bush for 9/11. What made me angry was in the days immediately after 9/11 how quickly Republicans started chanting “Thank God, Al Gore isn’t President.” WTF was that?
IMO, it was statements like these that triggered the reaction Duffy criticizes.
Exactly, pandora. No one really started getting pissed at Bush until the rumblings about Iraq came out. When he invaded that sovereign, had-nothing-to-do-with-9/11 nation, all bets were off and the man deserved every bit of vilification he got.
“Equal health care for all? Where is the incentive to do better in society if that happens?”
Um, Darren, what I hear you saying is that people only have an incentive to do “better” if they DON’T get health care.
Let’s not give health care benefits to the people working on Wall Street; then we can get something better out of them, right?
Right, Progressive Mom! Darren is acting like health care is actually a Maserati and a 2 million dollar home in East Hampton. When the government starts giving those out, he may have a point. There shouldn’t be an incentive for health care. If you get sick, you should just be able to show up to a hospital and not have to fill out reams of paperwork to set a bone!
I think Darren is a clever plant just trying to make sure that no one votes Libertarian.
I thought that was Brian S’s job.
One of the big points the teabggers make (when an argument is sufficiently lucid to have a point) is that the health care reform will take away the insurance they have… one thing no one ever talks about is the momentum gathering in the demise of employer based health care…
Baseline Scenario has a great article on this with links to other discussion on the subject.
I wish there was more discussion of this in the media and the blogosphere rather than just calling them wackos (no matter how well deserved). The movement is really a big lobbying campaign for various industries aided and abetted by a bunch of scumbag wanna-be Walter Winchels like Beck getting pub leading a horde of ignorant people. Some discussion on the fallacy of much of their logic might help keep others who are less informed from buying into these meaningless arguments.
I do not believe the teabaggers are a failure. They are a success in providing a populist face for what is essentially a corporate lobbying effort and a big PR opportuinity for people who want viewers or to sell books. The whole thing is an absurd distraction.
It has been very difficult to counter the message mostly because there really is not a clear counter coming from the Obama administration. They have no interest in a public option (despite the polemics) and neither does anyone in power in the house or Senate. They are not responding to the arguments of these lunatics, they are still doing a rhetorical dance around the fact that the bill they will pass will be industry gifts and very little real reform. They are trying to sell it by saying it will not cost anything (just like the republiucans did with everything) even though that is obviously not true.
As Mark Thoma at
Economist View put it when discussing George McGovern’s WaPo op-ed on simply extending Medicare to all and why it would not be an easy sell:
“One reason is that most voters already have health care and their message is a simple one, reform is fine – we should cover everyone – so long as I don’t have to pay more in taxes, my benefits aren’t cut, and the quality of care isn’t compromised (even those currently on Medicare might wonder if their benefits could be preserved at the current cost if the program was extended to everyone). I don’t think people understand the extent to which employer based care will diminish in the future putting their care at risk, i.e. the risk that they face if we do not reform the system, so I don’t think Medicare for all would survive this test in voter’s minds. Whether it’s true or not, they could be easily convinced that at least one of benefits, taxes, or quality would be compromised.”
The teabaggers have basically played this fear. The administration has done nothing to allay the fear and really has done nothing specific to sell the people on what the trade-offs really are. This comment was in regard to Medicare for all, but could be applied to the undefined concept the administration is selling.
It would be tough to sell honestly though, as without real cost discipline or some structure where the government negotiates rates (and starts providing incentives for primary care instead of specialties) then this is all just a special interest bill. A honest discussion on health care would be counterproductive for both sides as at the end of the day the goal is to collect as much cash as possible from special interests from this – not actual reform.
All of this plays right into the campaign of fear and ignorance that is driving the teabaggers. If you think the teabaggers and Glen Beck as their de facto spokesman are shooting for a solid idealogically based movement you miss the point. The dems are playig into it. I am pretty sure they know it… and get to come and tell us after the sellout that it was a hard fought compromise.
“Um, Darren, what I hear you saying is that people only have an incentive to do ābetterā if they DONāT get health care.”
Nope. Social healthcare was just an example of the normalization of mediocrity. Make EVERYONE pay for health care. Why should a hard working citizen NOT get healthcare over someone who isn’t working. Does a lawyer deserve better healthcare than a burger flipper? ABSOLUTELY.
Letās not give health care benefits to the people working on Wall Street; then we can get something better out of them, right?”
Fine. But make everyone pay for it, and I bet the wall streeters get healthcare before alot of other people. That’s what education and professional motivation gives you. I work very hard to be sucessful and provide good healthcare for my family. I worked hard so I could send my child to private school, and allow her to have experiences that other children may not have. Does that give her a competitive advantage? I hope so! Damned if I’m going to pay taxes to support someone who dosen’t work as hard as me. They want it? They’ll find a way to get it.
Everyone did just fine without government healthcare, social security, welfare…. it’s a disgrace that we as a nation support those who won’t support themselves.
“Everyone did just fine without government healthcare, social security, welfareā¦. itās a disgrace that we as a nation support those who wonāt support themselves.”
That is a pretty uninformed opinion.
Yes, that was quite uniformed. Most people without health care are employed. Not every employer offers health care benefits, <60% do. But please, continue your uniformed and factually wrong postings, Darren.
Darren makes that false equivalency of: hard work equals big money.
It doesn’t.
It never did. It never will.
The other beauty: :Does a lawyer deserve better healthcare than a burger flipper? ABSOLUTELY.
Think long and hard about that word: deserve.
The lawyer, who may or may not work harder than the family farmer, but sure as hell makes more money, “deserves” better healthcare.
Perhaps you’d be more comfortable with an aristocracy.
Might I suggest Haiti?
I was thinking more about average life expectancy and quality of life, you know time with the family, elimination of the mandatory 7 day work week, child labor, work place safety stuff, fair wages, consumer protection, food quality regulation…you know, those kind of socialist ideals we hold in this country. People weren’t doing just “fine” prior to these changes, you literally worked hard ’till the day you died.
“Does a lawyer deserve better healthcare than a burger flipper? ABSOLUTELY.”
Which one are you, Darren?
“One that had also been growing unchecked during his predecessors 8 year term.”
Wrong. Clinton actually focused on terrorism and tried to take out bin Laden. REpublicans like you accused him of wagging the dog.
“Obama is about to make a historic intrusion on our fiscal liberty”
We once had marginal tax rates of 90% on high earners in this country. So in what way is Obama’s health care goal “historic” in intruding on (I love this phrase) “fiscal liberty.”
“They want it? Theyāll find a way to get it.”
Sounds like the immortal words of Louis XVI.