They’re Sorry Now!
Arizona passed their law requiring immigrants to prove their legal status and apparently lots of undocumented workers went home rather than live the risk of being caught or even the hassle. Even though this is a pretty despicable law, I’m not going to have any issues with undocumented workers going home. I’ve often wished that the wingnuts who insist that all of the undocumented workers go home would actually get their wish. Mainly so that they can see exactly how much of the economy is truly dependent upon these workers,and how much of the economy that would simply collapse without them. I’ve gotten part of my wish:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es3hq0XM-cw[/youtube]
You heard that right — Arizona wants to flip flop on this and now create a guest worker program. So that they can get back some of the workers who were, you know, powering their economy. That steel plant owner and lots of ag businesses are really hurting since the undocumented workers went home. Meaning that there is stuff that should be produced and demand for items that is going unmet. And even though they say that this program is for ag workers, it will certainly expand to landscapers and pool maintenance and fast food and all of the other places where they need to fill real jobs.
Of course, I think that if they paid living wages for these jobs more Americans would take them. And I’d bet alot of money that the state of Arizona can’t just create its own guest worker program. But between tourist and convention business falling off as well as their business community making clear the reality that there are major swaths of the American economy that is no longer functional with out these undocumented workers it is beginning to look like the business of governing to stoke the fears and resentments of the people who elected you is starting to take a toll on the state.
Tags: Republican Hypocrisy
Note that they are crediting the 2008 crackdown on employers, not the 2010 “papers please” law focused on individuals. I don’t see anything wrong with an exodus of illegals due to denial of illegal jobs. That is way more humane than anything else I have seen suggested.
The awareness of a labor shortage means the program is working as employers self-audit to deny jobs to illegals, and is probably a necessary step before employers begin offering higher wages to legal workers. Some businesses will not be able to stay in business with legal workers; they should be allowed to close.
There probably should be a guestworker program that is well-controlled to allow only seasonal produce workers, while protecting other manufacturing and service jobs. But that is a federal issue; the feds should give deference to local wishes but I don’t think AZ should be allowed to run its own immigration policy, and probably won’t.
The awareness of a labor shortage means the program is working as employers self-audit to deny jobs to illegals, and is probably a necessary step before employers begin offering higher wages to legal workers.
I wish I could think that this would happen. What I do think will happen is that these employers will ratchet up the pressure on their congresspeople for a guest worker program that still allows them to function on dirt cheap wages and the ability to mistreat those workers at will. And you will see the usual pieties coming from the usual Congressional places about protecting businesses. Not one of them, however, will be at all interested in jobs for people who are already here at wages that make sense for those workers.
they got hat they think they wanted. let them deal with it!
Considering how guest worker programs totally fail in places like Germany, I can’t believe they’re suggesting this. lol
Brooke’s right, the U.S. actually has the most successful immigration program now. Non-integration of immigrants into the society is a bad thing.
I agree with anon. Go after the employers – they are the one who are driving the immigration. If they can’t hire undocumented immigrants then it will stop. Of course, that means those employers will have to pay for Americans to work those jobs.
If I am not mistaken, I think there already is a Federal guest worker program for seasonal produce. If AZ’s quota needs to be increased, then increase it. That would make sense. The CNN piece didn’t seem to be too focused on produce though.
Also did I hear the CNN reporter say unemployment was 4%? AZ is more like 10% statewide. People are going to have to move for work.. it sucks but it is better than no work.
The stupid steel plant owner says he lost “$4 or 5 million” last year because he had to fire 12 illegal workers and can’t hire legals now. Think about that for a minute:
Did 12 illegal workers really generate $4 or $5 million in business? WOW!!
And if there is really $4 or 5 million on the table if you can just hire 12 new guys – what the hell is he waiting for? Offer double the pay, if that’s what it takes to bring in those millions!
More likely, the owner is just trying to replace them at the same rate or an insufficient rate. He is probably lying about the $4-5 million in lost business, otherwise he’d do what it takes to fill those jobs.
i was actually laughing the whole time i was watching this. That stupid gaggle of white trash. I say let arizona fall to pieces in their caucasian utopia where none of them can be bothered to get a little dusty doing “brown people work”
to arizona .. (in a Nelson from the Simpsons voice) HA-HA.
How long until Flip Flopin Jonny decided he has always been against the law?
With 4% unemployment in Phoenix, the law sounds like a resounding success (the 2008 employer sanctions, not the “papers please” law). The employer sanctions law should be a model for the nation.
What CNN conveniently left out is the steel plant owner (Sheridan Bailey,IronCo) is an activist who created a pressure group to lobby for guest worker programs – apparently in response to the employer sanctions law when it was first proposed. You can find multiple interviews of him online; he has been whining for cheap labor since at least 2005.
When Bailey talks about a “25% increase” in labor costs, he is complaining about raising his wages for experienced steelfitters from $15/hr to $20/hr and not being able to find people.
In other words, he gave up an alleged $4-5 million in business because he wasn’t willing to give back more than an extra $5/hr to his workers.
Screw the greedhead. He should go under and his people should go work for somebody who pays more.
“Agricultural Industry… Business leaders complain…”
Big fucking deal. They’re the source of the problem. I guess these assholes will still refuse to pay decent wages. I’d hardly call this a “stunning reversal”, and was entirely predictable.
“… That stupid gaggle of white trash. I say let arizona fall to pieces in their caucasian utopia where none of them can be bothered to get a little dusty doing “brown people work” >
Poor uninformed and immature, A.price. From his safe, insulated location in he Northeast, he is still duped to believing this is a racial issue.
“He is probably lying about the $4-5 million in lost business, otherwise he’d do what it takes to fill those jobs.”
Apparently, those “ex-cons” won’t bust their balls for chump change either.
Yes, they will resist paying decent wages. Farm labor is one of the exceptions to the minimum wage law. Mis, aren’t you worried about paying $4 for a head of lettuce? (This is the argument farmers usually make about why they need the exemption).
Illegals leaving is a good thing. Only the loony left and corporate exploiters would think that is a problem. Oklahoma’s law cleared a lot of illegals. The state benefited. They actually had to pay decent wages and have safer working conditions. Let them all go home and come back the right way. We don’t need illegal immigrants. We don’t need comprehensive immigration reform. We just need to enforce the laws we have and appropriately adjust the numbers to economic reality.
Arizona passed their law requiring immigrants to prove their legal status and apparently lots of undocumented workers went home rather than live the risk of being caught or even the hassle.
That’s usually what happens. Word spreads, I used to work with an illegal who wouldn’t go into PA at the time.
Even though this is a pretty despicable law…
Yeah, it’s probably just racist or something. If Canadians were working here illegally, depressing wages and changing our economy then everyone would probably be fine with that.
Mainly so that they can see exactly how much of the economy is truly dependent upon these workers…
Our economy is distorted by illegal workers, not dependent on them.
…and how much of the economy that would simply collapse without them.
Why not the whole social contract, nation and civilization as well? It’s all simply going to collapse if national borders are enforced in any way, right?
Hey, as long as you conservatives are OK with the higher food prices, this will all work out just fine. Somehow, though, I doubt you’ll like that. For all the whining about China, I notice most of you don’t hesitate to shop at Wal-Mart.
That’s an inconvenient truth Geezer. Shhhhhh.
Arizona passed their law requiring immigrants to prove their legal status and apparently lots of undocumented workers went home rather than live the risk of being caught or even the hassle.
Actually, that law hasn’t taken effect yet.
Geezer.. I don’t know about you, but I think the food doesn’t taste as good when it is produced with illegal labor.
We don’t need illegal immigrants. We don’t need comprehensive immigration reform.
Yet we’ll probably get it, without the rule of law.
The majority of Republicans seem to see an opportunity to fund their campaigns with money from businesses that want cheap labor or they’re scared of the racial demagoguery that Democrats rely on to get elected. After all, they might be called a racist. And that is one absolute that even relativists/multiculturalists seem to agree is wrong, at least for whites. Whatever the reason, Republicans haven’t done anything about illegal immigration. After politicians are done with all their compromising and corruption (a messy business which supposedly must go on in order for them to get elected to “serve the people” and so on) it sometimes seems that they’re too busy trying to get elected to actually do anything while elected.
Hey, as long as you conservatives are OK with the higher food prices, this will all work out just fine.
People who actually do the “dirty jobs” that Northeastern liberals apparently believe that people just won’t do (Because they won’t?) will be fine with higher food prices when their wages rise thanks to illegal workers leaving.
No, because Americans won’t. We’ve always had migrant farm labor for that very reason — Americans won’t work for those wages. If you shrink that labor pool, which kicking out the illegals will, you will not find anyone to do the work.
The meat-packing industry is another that nobody who isn’t in dire economic straits would do. I wouldn’t do it at any wage; it’s simply unsafe, not to mention soul-deadening. But maybe pro-war conservatives will take those jobs — they seem to like killing things.
Most of us will not see our wages rise, just costs, because most of us work at jobs illegals can’t compete for.
I agree with Geezer. It’s simply amazing the solutions many come up with for others, but do so without having worn the shoes of those whose lives they intend to impact. It’s not just this topic, nor one party that this applies to, this is across the spectrum, period. One of the most apt sayings we hear over and over is about walking a mile in another’s shoes. Until you do, you can do your best to understand, but you’ll never know the reality. This difference in this particular topic is I don’t think there’s much of an attempt to understand.
The reality is that the Latinos can, and will work for lower wages.
One reason is that they are used to a lower standard of living, being that they come from poorer countries.
Another reason is a cultural difference. A lot of these people coming here from Latin America will live in one home with their extended families, which may include several separate individual families. This type of living arrangement affords them many advantages over American workers.
I guess Americans should be doing the same thing, but I can’t see it.
I like my friends and my extended family, but I sure as hell don’t want to pack myself into some house or apartment with them.
Some of these jobs that Americans won’t do used to be decently paying blue-collar jobs — jobs in the meat-packing industry or even in the steel-making industry (from the owner of the plant in the video). But they were also union jobs, or influenced enough to ensure that the people in those industries were making realistically middle-class wages. Push down those wages and you eventually push out the people who can’t make it on those salaries. And with the extra added benefit of work force that probably can’t communicate all to well with safety regulators when they bother to show up.
Geezer is right about the current meat packing industry. Decades ago meat packing jobs were just as difficult, but paid reasonable well. An MD friend tells stories about working summers in the mid 70’s on the hog kill line at his hometown’s packing plant. I’ll spare the job’s details. You could support a family on a single packing worker’s wage. College kids made enough over the summer to pay for a year at the state college and have a year of beer money.
Then IBP, Swift, and other large packing companies started opening plants in small towns where people would work for minimum wage. When they couldn’t find enough locals to work at the plant they began hiring illegal immigrants who they often paid less than minimum wage. The low wages drove meat prices down forcing the medium size packing companies to close their plants, or sell out to the big packing companies. The good Doc’s hometown plant has sat empty for a couple decades.
Mynym is right people will do difficult farm or factory work now done by legal and illegal immigrants, but they won’t work in deplorable conditions at ½ the wage their dad made 30 years ago. The problem isn’t a poor person who is in the USA illegally just trying to help his family, but with Swift, IBP, and all the other companies that exploit illegal immigrants.
In 2006 ICE raided Swift packing plants in 6 states. Approximately 40% of Swift’s worker’s were working illegally. Swift claimed it has never knowingly hired anyone who could not legally work in the US. Tom Tancredo called Swift’s claim unbelievable, and called on the fed’s to arrest Swift management for violating the law. Not a single criminal charge has been brought against a US Swift employee.
Illegal immigrants are victims of poverty, and those that exploit them should be punished, but they aren’t. Until the federal government (or states like AZ) begin to enforce laws, already on the books, and prosecute employers who hire “undocumented workers” (including rich people hiring nannies and maids not in the US legally) no fence, or stepped up enforcement will matter. And people will continue to believe this is all about racism.
Closer to home, the same thing happens on the Delmarva Peninsula chicken plants. Not only will immigrants, both legal and illegal, work for less, they also are less likely to complain to authorities about illegal working conditions, as at the plant a couple of decades ago where workers were killed in a fire because management had chained shut the emergency doors to keep people from taking smoking breaks.
In short, though, if labor becomes scarcer, wages will rise, meaning prices in those industries will rise. And if the conservatives are willing to pay that price to cure a problem that I think is overblown, then they are at least being consistent. Now about Wal-Mart…
Not all illegals are working for sub-standard or below minimum wage jobs. Those in the construcion business are making less per hour than their legal American workers but most of the time it’s because the english speaking, driver’s license holding, American is in a supervisory/customer relations role that is worth more to the company than the labor position is worth no matter who holds it.
The company I work for charges the max it can to be profitable yet affordable to it’s customer-base. If an employee asks for $1.00 per hour raise for instance our hourly labor charge to our customers doesn’t automatically go up too. That hourly labor charge is determined by many factors the largest being our overhead costs – which does not include direct labor.
Yes, I”m sure the price of having drywall hung or roofs nailed down will remain relatively unchanged. And lots of people will go back to mowing their own lawns.
That doesn’t change the fact that food industries rely heavily on immigrant labor. Prices in those areas will rise. If you have any evidence they won’t, by all means produce it.
Those in the construcion business are making less per hour than their legal American workers but most of the time it’s because the english speaking, driver’s license holding,
Often construction work is a step up for undocumented workers here from the field jobs they came here for. They are indeed often paid less than their American counterparts. They are still subject to a fair about of labor abuse — the worst of which are contracts like some of those for Katrina putting up blue roofs or debris removal. Lots of immigrants did a decent bit of this work and NOT at Davis-Bacon wages. Because they worked for a subcontractor three or four times removed that didn’t get much oversight, the government got billed at Davis Bacon wages but the workers were paid way less. Guess who got the difference? And this is not so unusual — there is still a market wage for lots of these jobs. It it typically costs $20 to hire an American to hang drywall, a contractor can hire an undocumented worker for far less, even though their bid price is based on the $20/hour. Guess who pockets the difference? The price of labor doesn’t exactly go down for the person buying the service — the amount of money available to a contractor for contingencies and/or profit margins just go up.
food industries rely heavily on immigrant labor. Prices in those areas will rise.
With 10% unemployment, I’m willing to make that experiment.
I don’t mind paying a little extra for my veggies, if it means the lettuce-picker has enough money left over at the end of the month to buy groceries for his family, plus the full range of legal protections available to American workers.
Few vegetable pickers have money to buy anything. From the Farm Workers Ministry web site:
–Many farm workers are paid by the amount of the crop they harvest – by “piece rate.” For example, cucumber pickers in North Carolina receive approximately 65 cents for each 33 pound bucket they harvest. This averages out to around $3.90 per hour. (“Boycott Mt. Olive Pickles” circular. Farm Labor Organizing Committee, AFL-CIO. Toledo, Ohio.)–
Here’s the site: http://www.nfwm.org/fw/povertywages.shtml
Seriously, I’m amazed at the disparity between how much anti-immigrant bigmouths know about the subject and how much they have to say on the subject.
No, because Americans won’t.
Apparently the Americans that Northeastern liberals know who do not shop at Walmart, who see other people as white trash and so on will not do those jobs. But perhaps there are many other Americans who would.
We’ve always had migrant farm labor for that very reason — Americans won’t work for those wages.
Your reason is an illusion brought about by people who want illegal immigration for political reasons, whether it’s Republicans who want cheap labor or Democrats who think that they’ll be able to get more minority votes with their usual racial demagoguery. I.e. politicians who one way or another care about getting re-elected than protecting citizens and establishing the general welfare and the rule of law.
If you shrink that labor pool, which kicking out the illegals will, you will not find anyone to do the work.
If what you’re saying is correct then why not just flood the labor market with illegal immigrants? It will build the economy, get us out of debt and provide us with cheaper things, right?
The meat-packing industry is another that nobody who isn’t in dire economic straits would do. I wouldn’t do it at any wage; it’s simply unsafe, not to mention soul-deadening.
More elitism, you’re an animal just like everyone else and that inevitably means that you eat other organisms in order to live.
It seems there is a subtext of progress typical to progressives who view other animals or races as evolutionary links in Progress towards… themselves. Unsurprisingly they always seem to imagine themselves as standing at a pinnacle of Progress and enlightenment in the mythologies of progress typical to them.
But maybe pro-war conservatives will take those jobs — they seem to like killing things.
And you wouldn’t thanks to your tender little heart… awww, but are you a vegetarian? As long as you don’t see it I guess it doesn’t matter.
Most of us will not see our wages rise, just costs, because most of us work at jobs illegals can’t compete for.
That’s probably because “American” seems from your parochial perspective to be a Northeastern liberal. I’ve worked with plenty of Americans who already do the dirty jobs, even with their wages being depressed by illegals. So why should I assume along with you that “Americans” simply won’t do certain jobs?
“But perhaps there are many other Americans who would.”
Perhaps? You read a thread full of posts from people who know what they’re talking about, and the best you can come up with is magical thinking? Yes, perhaps we’ll all get a pony this Christmas, too.
“Your reason [Americans won’t work for farm wages] is an illusion”
No, actually, it’s not. Farm workers have been mostly migrants since WWII. You could look it up.
“More elitism,”
So tell me, asswipe, do you know the first thing about meat-packing? Get back to me when you do.
“I’ve worked with plenty of Americans who already do the dirty jobs”
I’m not the least bit surprised. That’s what usually happens to ignorant assholes who think they know everything.
As usual, your entire post is substance free, except for when you argue from anecdote. Take that weak shit to some conservative site, where they’re bound to hail you as a genius. Dipshit.
In short, though, if labor becomes scarcer, wages will rise, meaning prices in those industries will rise.
Actually stopping illegal immigration doesn’t necessarily mean that prices will rise. You keep taking a static view of life similar to your static view of wages. There may or may not be new inventions and means of production brought about by a change in the price of labor. In fact, there already are many ways of mechanizing labor that seem to be sitting around already mainly because the price of illegal labor is cheaper. So who knows what would happen if illegal labor was done away with. Only one thing is certain, it’s not static. It’s ironic that progressives seem to know so little of progress.
Another static view: Americans won’t do that for those wages. Therefore we may as well allow illegal immigration or else the economy will collapse, etc. It’s all logical, if you make stupid assumptions. Wages are not static. Certain sectors of the economy may collapse and be replaced or they may not.
And if the conservatives are willing to pay that price to cure a problem that I think is overblown…
It’s only “overblown” from your parochial perspective.
Perhaps? You read a thread full of posts from people who know what they’re talking about, and the best you can come up with is magical thinking?
It seems to me that all that is necessary to counter your parochial views and elitist ignorance is my own experience. There’s nothing magical about it. I’ve worked with Americans doing the “dirty jobs” that you claim that Americans won’t do, so I know you’re wrong. They’re already doing them even with the pressure on wages brought about by illegal labor.
No, actually, it’s not. Farm workers have been mostly migrants since WWII. You could look it up.
You can play pretend about your ignorant and parochial views if you like but the fact is that there is no evidence that there is any job that Americans simply will not do.
So tell me, asswipe, do you know the first thing about meat-packing? Get back to me when you do.
Yes, although I can’t go into detail lest I hurt your tender little heart.
That’s what usually happens to ignorant assholes who think they know everything.
The Herd seems to feel that people against illegal immigration are white trash, shop at Walmart, generally racists, etc. But then it turns out that people who do dirty jobs are usually ignorant assholes and so on? Actually I don’t view dirty jobs as a punishment, nor are there a preponderance of assholes. Usually dirty jobs are an honest day’s labor based on immanence, which is more than can be said for many jobs. But this comment seems to reveal the same old subtext typical to people who believe in mythologies of Progress, with the brutish and ignorant assholes doing the dirty jobs that those at the pinnacle of Progress just won’t do. Yet ironically, despite the way that progressives tend to make a fetish out of education, knowledge and intelligence it’s often a non-issue. I.e. when it comes to progress and civilization a simple person who has a good work ethic who wants to do the right thing is superior to a highly intelligent, well educated moral degenerate. One builds civilization and progress as we know it, the other destroys it.
“No, because Americans won’t. We’ve always had migrant farm labor for that very reason — Americans won’t work for those wages. If you shrink that labor pool, which kicking out the illegals will, you will not find anyone to do the work.”
Yes, we will.
I spent my formative years working side by with migrant workers side at a vegetable cannery(s) in, or near Milton), specifically, Puerto Ricans and blacks. That’s where I first became interested in the Spanish language and culture. My first real job was on a stationary pea viner, at age 14 (you city boys probably don’t even know what that is – dangerous work for a kid). I was the only white boy on the job.
As you stated earlier, agricultural workers aren’t subject to minimum wage laws (and working hours-6:00 AM 5:30 PM). That was over 40 years ago. Even back then, most Hispanics hated the US, were sending most of their wages back home to “la familia”, and were merely seeking their fortune here with dreams of returning home wealthy. Without the illegals, they will have to start paying a livable wage and benefits again.
To answer an earlier question (about the mythical $4 per head lettuce)… I mow my own grass, and grow most vegetables, so it won’t affect me as much as it will those of you who are sadly dependent on the cheap, exploited labor.
Did you also walk to school, uphill both ways in the snow, Mis? 😉
“It seems to me that all that is necessary to counter your parochial views and elitist ignorance is my own experience.”
My views are not parochial. I have farmers in my family and come in contact with them frequently, and I have read a decent amount on the topic to make sure I’m not being biased by that personal experience. You, on the other hand, fit the definition perfectly: “narrow in scope, or considering only small sections of an issue”
“I’ve worked with Americans doing the “dirty jobs” that you claim that Americans won’t do, so I know you’re wrong.”
First off, I never said Americans won’t do them — I said they won’t do them at current wages. You have shown no evidence to counter that. You have brought this up twice now without stating what your “dirty job” was (I’ve done many myself) or what the wages were.
“your tender little heart.”
Who said it was tender? I said you couldn’t pay me any amount of money to do that job because it’s soul-deadening and unsafe. There’s plenty of evidence of that out there; ignore it if you like, but be aware that’s a parochial attitude.
“it turns out that people who do dirty jobs are usually ignorant assholes and so on? ”
In my personal experience, yes. Which carries just as much weight as your personal experience, doesn’t it?
“dirty jobs are an honest day’s labor based on immanence”
I’m not sure that word means what you think it means.
“this comment seems to reveal the same old subtext typical to people who believe in mythologies of Progress,”
Actually I believe in the idea that if you get an education you don’t have to kill hogs for a living. Interesting that, for someone so offended at being typecast, you are so quick to do it yourself. Interesting, and typical of your type.
“when it comes to progress and civilization a simple person who has a good work ethic who wants to do the right thing is superior to a highly intelligent, well educated moral degenerate.”
Ah, I see. You’re moral and I”m a degenerate, all because I think you have your head up your ass economically on the immigrant issue.
There is, in fact, quite a bit of evidence that Americans won’t do many jobs at the wages current in those fields of endeavor. You are the one with the parochial attitude — you refuse to research any of this because you have worked at an unspecified “dirty” job, and seem proud of your ignorance. Elitist about it, in fact.
Miscreant: Fine then. All I said was if you can live with more expensive vegetables (and meat — do you grow that, too?), then kicking out the illegals will work out fine.
And some of us “city kids” moved there because we didn’t care to spend our entire lives living amongst the shit-kickers. They’re wonderful, kind, caring people — as long as you don’t strike them as threatening or different. They don’t have much to say when the conversation turns to literature, though.
“It’s only “overblown” from your parochial perspective.”
Actually, from my economic perspective. The cost to the economy — not individual actors, the entire economy — is much less than many vocal critics claim. Unless we can kick them all out for less money than they are costing us, it’s not cost-effective to go to the trouble to kick them out. Do you disagree?
“Certain sectors of the economy may collapse and be replaced or they may not. ”
Which is why I made my statement about one particular sector of the economy. Are you so impressed with yourself that you don’t bother to read?
By the way, I don’t know where you come up with the straw-man “progressive” you keep going on about.
“Farm workers have been mostly migrants since WWII. You could look it up.”
Indeed, blacks as well as Hispanics. In the 60’s, I recall my hometown rarely had a winning football team because, in mid-season, half of the black families of our team would head south to Florida and Georgia to pick tomatoes. Even if we had a good start, we were perpetually fucked at the finish of every season.
Good times.
“So tell me, asswipe, do you know the first thing about meat-packing? Get back to me when you do.”
I do! As I have mentioned before, I worked in slaughterhouses in Missouri for over a year in the early 70’s. Interestingly, there were virtually no Hispanic workers back then. They were mostly white, and a few blacks. I also worked with prisoners, who were bussed to the work site every day (I had to walk 3/4 mile to work).
My main job was to collect the green (raw) hides from several local meat packers every day, and occasionally did the same at Oklahoma and Arkansas meat packers.I also worked part-time at MFA (Missouri Farmers Association) slaughter house in Springfield, MO. Anything you want to know about processing bloody meat, just ask.
Life sucked that year.
By the way, Mis, there are very few 14-year-olds with jobs these days. You would not have done that job as an adult, because you could not afford to.
Given your experiences, I think you know what I’m talking about when I say the killing floor, even if it’s just chickens, is an unsafe and soul-deadening place.
“(and meat — do you grow that, too?)”
No, I catch or shoot it.
“They’re wonderful, kind, caring people — as long as you don’t strike them as threatening or different. They don’t have much to say when the conversation turns to literature, though.”
Yes, they are. That’s why I came back to settle. You obviously didn’t hang with the right “shit kickers”. The smartest man I ever met was the best friend of my grandfathers, who was black man with a 6th grade education. As far as I was concerned, he was a mechanical/electrical genius, and was equally well read. He lived near Lewes, and had the unusual name of Delaware Hudson. If you have to live near a city to bask in “culture’, I rather doubt you know the true definition. Literature is but one small facet.
‘Given your experiences, I think you know what I’m talking about when I say the killing floor, even if it’s just chickens, is an unsafe and soul-deadening place.”
I agree, it can be if you let it. No chickens on my killing floor. Only cattle, hogs, and sheep. Unsafe doesn’t even come close to describing it.
“No, I catch or shoot it.”
All of it? I only know one guy in Delaware who does that, and only because he’s willing to hunt deer with a muzzle-loader and a bow in addition to shotgun.
“If you have to live near a city to bask in “culture’, I rather doubt you know the true definition. Literature is but one small facet.”
Who said anything about “culture”? I gave literature as an example, but I could have chosen any number of things instead. And while I’m sure Mr. Hudson was fascinating, in my experience Junior and Bubba are usually less so. The simple fact is that, because there are more people in population centers, it’s usually easier to find people whose interests match yours. I don’t actually live in the city, by the way, but since you were stereotyping I didn’t want to stop you.
“it can be if you let it”
I think the only difference there is whether your soul dies naturally or you kill it yourself.
“Did you also walk to school, uphill both ways in the snow, Mis? ;-)”
As a matter of fact, I did. But there were no hills, and I lived less than 100 yards from the school.
In case mynym ever returns, he can check out this Dave Ross report for May 26:
http://mynw.com/?nid=90
In brief, it’s about Washington state cherry growers who advertised for pickers after illegal Mexicans were deported. Nobody applied. They’re now bringing in Jamaicans, who can come in because there are fewer Jamaicans trying to get papers. But don’t worry, that’s no indication we need comprehensive reform.