Bill Maher has advice for Occupy
… and I agree with it.
Of all the fines levied against him, how much will Donald Trump actually pay?
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Mostly, I agree with this too. Although it doesn’t have to be just Occupy, it could be the larger progressive movement.
I came here to post this, but will just append it here, since it is pretty much the same sentiment:
That was Attorney General Eric Scheiderman addressing the NetRoots Nation conference this week.
But yeah, collecting some scalps is instant credibility.
I agree with that too, Cassandra.
Bill is simply an A-Hole..
An asshole who is right more often than not. And here he is right.
What a fucking smarmy front-runner.
Maher advises Occupy to “get involved in the American political process.”
Yay, let’s all get out and do lit drops for Tom Carper! Or if Carper isn’t your cup of tea, there’s always that freak from Dewey to rally behind.
The point of Occupy is that both parties are shoveling money to the rich, not that we need to work harder for Democrats.
Maher dares to compare Occupy with the teabaggers and attempts to point out that the tea party was successful because they “mobilized.” Yes, they mobilized in the parks and on the Mall. They just did it bigger and better.
Let’s get one thing straight: The Tea Party was successful because they were pushing the way the money wants to go. Their message fell on willing ears.
But Occupy was pushing AGAINST the money. If they didn’t succeed it is not through any fault of their own, but because we didn’t support them enough. Of course, sleeping in the park was an attention-getting tactic; it was never intended to be sustainable. But we failed to take up their banner and carry it to the next level. Occupy supplied plenty of flame, but you can’t start a fire with wet wood.
Occupy led us to water but we refused to drink.
Occupy succeeded in getting our attention, and now all we can do is point and laugh? When the progressive “grownups” treat them like they are being treated right here, I wouldn’t blame the Occupy kids from becoming demoralized and going full-on Ayn Rand.
When you get paid for doing comedy at the expense of others, then you can afford to agree with Maher. But until then, don’t be a fair-weather progressive.
Puck, he is talking about running their own candidates, not doing lit drops for Tom Carper. Did the Tea Party back Mike Castle? No, they found their own candidates.
Maher, and I, want Occupy to succeed beyond getting our attention, we want them to be a force, rather than sitting in a park visualizing whatever and marching with guitars.
He’s just so right.
Tom carper has a telephone town hall coming up. Maybe you can kick him in the back? I seriously doubt that Puck could get past the screeners. Especially with a pseudonym.
DD, Occupy got your attention and therefore already succeeded. Any failure now belongs to us. Did you really expect the shock troops to carry the main battle?
The teabagger rallies gave Republican Congressmen cover to take off the mask and introduce teabagger legislation. Now where’s the Occupy legislation?
Before the media frenzy over teabagger rallies, there was public opprobrium against any legislator who dared suggest voucherizing Medicare or cutting Social Security. And in the Democratic world, there used to be opprobrium against those who cut taxes for the rich.
Now the opproprium has been removed, with our passive blessing. We were supposed to supply the opprobrium, but we stopped.
Occupy got caught up with the idea of camping and fighting with city authorities about the camp. I was hoping it would act as a way to mobilize more activism on the left. There’s been some, especially on the foreclosure front but I fail to see them find tactics that a wider range of activists can take advantage of.
Many of us from Occupy Dover, and to a lesser extent Occupy Delaware up north, are doing this. The Occupation is also how I met Andy Groff. It’s still pretty small scale stuff, but we’re working on it.
I know a lot of you don’t consider me to be “progressive”, but in my conversations with other Occupiers during the weeks we were out on Legislative Mall, we found a LOT of common ground, and we especially agreed on the need for politicians to be elected who would be impolitic. Who would not play the game the way it’s “supposed” to be played. Who would kick the establishment in the teeth for fun and force them to accommodate us instead of it ALWAYS being the other way around. Who can be the crazy mother***kers that BOTH SIDES have to “deal with”.
Andrew Groff, Bernard August, and myself. We’re not “endorsed” by Occupy, that’s not how it works, but we are Occupiers, and we’re taking the fight to the politicians. You can do it too, it’s easy. The Green Party and the Libertarian Party have until July 31st to nominate additional candidates in Delaware, or if you’re a registered Democrat or Republican and can raise the primary filing fee, you can s**t where they live.
The big failure on the progressive side is a top down failure, not a bottom up failure. The Obama 08 campaign showed that there was a base willing to go into battle. There simply is no progressive leadership. None from the labor side, none from the elected officials. No amount of dedicated committed followership can compensate for an absence of leadership.
“Occupy got caught up with the idea of camping and fighting with city authorities about the camp.”
This is also the history of the labor movement. And you probably have heard of Hoovervilles. Those events were followed up with progressive leadership.
“There simply is no progressive leadership. ”
The baffling thing is that progressive policies are the only policies that have ever worked for America. And they are popular (although VRWC money can temporarily suppress their approval numbers).
There simply is no progressive leadership.
At any level, apparently. But if progressives are going to sit around and wait for leadership, then you don’t have a movement. You have sheep bleating to be led.
^this.
Speaking about progressives in the third person is a tell. It allows us to triangulate, as if we are observers from above watching the battle between progressives and conservatives. Like the Washington dandies picnicking at the First Battle of Bull Run.
Progressives need to stop triangulating.
Honestly, this is the first time I have ever laughed at anything Bill Maher had to say, pretty funny skit, even though I know he is sending a message, it was still pretty funny
Don’t know how puck’s comment ended up in the spam filter, but the tell really is the frantic effort to blame someone — anyone — for the fact that progressives largely fail to show up after someone sympathetic to the cause gets elected. Or to try to divert the conversation to something else.
You have to show up to triangulate in the first place.
Cassandra and I have a longstanding difference of opinion on this matter. I use Obama 08 to support my case that leadership can work, that the progressive base is ready and willing to fight. She tends to circle back to her assertion that I (we) aren’t doing enough. Where is the evidence to support your argument? I can be swayed, but I can’t be scolded into believing you.
Where would the civil rights movement have been if not for Martin Luther King? Where would women’s suffrage have been without Susan B Anthony. Human beings desire leadership. It is comforting to them to know that thier efforts are contributing to something larger, more important than themselves.
Is it a defect of human nature? Possibly. But ignoring it does not change the fact.
Cassandra, the …… and it makes me sick to say this…. very successful teabag movement wasn’t leaderless…. they are mostly followers. While it was mostly astroturf, it worked. They shifted the center to the right (NOT SAYING I THINK IT IS A GOOD THING…. just pointing out facts) and got a bunch of their people elected. They leaders were folks from the Media and in the government. Calling people who want to be a part of a movement, but are not “leaders” “sheep” is very insulting. I would LOVE to be a leader of a progressive cause. My downfall? i’ll starve if dont go to work for most of the week. Also, who the shit is Socialistic Ben?
Sure, could spend the next 10 years of my life building a name and reputation…. OR someone who is already well known can step up and count on guys like me to show up at their rallies and participate.
The evidence is pretty clear, although you want to believe that progressives do not have to follow the rules that everyone else does to make change. The civil rights movement as well as women’s suffrage took generations to accomplish and we still have work on both. MLK gave voice and pushed the moral message of the inherent wrongness of American apartheid. But he was not alone. African Americans who wanted equal rights did not sit at home and let MLK make speeches and then sit around and complain that they don’t have their civil rights yet. There was leadership at many levels for this fight and for a long time. Churches and church groups, professional groups and others were fighting this fight at least locally for a very long time before MLK became famous. What was key to his credibility, however, were the hundreds and thousands of people who showed up to make sure they were heard. Lots of those people did so at very great risk — they were hurt and killed to push their point.
Progressives are certainly NOT following this model. But then, what can you expect from folks who don’t even know the history of what they think they are making a point of. Black Americans did not wait for MLK to push for their rights. Women did not wait for Susan B. Anthony to push for their rights. None of these movements did not organically start when the right leader came along. They were already started and they kept on going. Because they did understand that they were contributing to something larger than themselves. But these people did not do this because some great individual showed up, they did it because their cause was righteous.
But that is the thing, isn’t it? What is your cause worth to you? My own parents risked their lives to make sure I could have the life I have now. So I know what the work and the commitment looks like. And there’s not much of that on the progressive side.
And there is plenty of evidence — you just won’t deal with it. Teajadis are capturing scalps left and right and they are listened to. Progressives are whining on the internet and stunned that no one is paying attention to them.
So you will continue to look around you for a savior while others are looking around for a way to make some change.
I agree with the message of the Occupy movement, only I don’t think they are accomplishing anything now. Politics is corrupt–all of it. Until you get the money out of politics, there is no sense in spending time and energy working for anyone on a national level. Why should Occupy bother getting involved in politics and trying to make a change? Bill Maher doesn’t get it. The only change that will mean anything to any of us is to work with the groups that are working to GET THE MONEY OUT OF POLITICS. If money is removed from politics, maybe our votes will actually mean something.
In his letter from the Birmingham jail, Dr. king didn’t agree with those within the black churches urging hm to slow down did he? No. That would not have been leadership. It is awfully convient for our would be leadership to be able to blame the Democraic base for their chickenheartedness.
But we’ve been over this befor. I don’t think either of us are going to be convinced.
The Letter from the Birmingham jail was specifically a response to 7 or 8 Alabama preachers — white ones — calling for more court action and less street action.
He wasn’t responding to the organic part of the civil rights movement — which continued apace and would have whether MLK showed up or not. The difference here is that NO ONE could accuse the base — the people in the streets and taking the hits and bearing all of the risk — of chickenheartedness.
Seriously, if you are invoking civil rights history you need to be more fluent in it. It was not a magic moment and it was not the result of one man’s work. The way you want progressive work to happen.
I agree with Cass. Progressives don’t show up for the hard work. Don’t get me wrong, there are some incredibly hard-working activists. But I see recent history – Obama was elected and progressives sat back and shot arrows from sidelines. I thought Occupy was supposed to turn this around. It hasn’t yet, quite.
And then there are the triangulating economically secure Dems who don’t shoot any arrows at all – except at progressive backs – because they win either way.
Well I suppose I can let you claim the triangulating, puck. This economically secure Dem was cheerleading for the extension of unemployment insurance and other stimulative measures while you retreated to your fainting couch that the tax cuts didn’t expire. Those things that you conveniently ignore when you need to blame Obama for something. Those things that I routinely argue were good things for the less economically secure while you are on your purity kick. A purity kick that never seems to come up with the 60 votes to get your way.
You want to stop triangulating? Take out Tom Carper and everyone listens.
Vote for Andrew Groff. Even if it means Wade wins, Wade is weak and won’t last more than one term if he gets a strong challenger without Carper’s baggage or a divided electoral base in ’18. You can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs. Granted, the DE Tea Party got cocky when they knocked off Castle with O’Donnell, but they DID knock him off. Collecting scalps is step one. Kamikaze into some bad pols, then your willingness to let others live will be sought after.
while you retreated to your fainting couch that the tax cuts didn’t expire.
A clear expression of how little you understand or care about the full impact of extending the tax cuts for the rich. That extension was no favor for the unemployed, with or without the UI. It extended the jobless recovery as far as the eye can see, and put safety net cuts on the table, and gave Republicans the upper hand in every subsequent deficit debate.
The deal was based on a false premise – that benefits wouldn’t be extended without the tax cuts. People who wanted to believe that swallowed it whole. And by the way, the money is gone but the tax cuts linger on wreaking their havoc on jobs.
With that deal, Democrats are now the owners of trickle-down economics with your support. And the unemployed are now screwed, and are once again preparing to report for hostage duty.
In a way you are exposing the divide between progressives and old-school liberals. Progressives want to fix the underlying problems (i.e., the structural imbalance caused by the Bush tax cuts). But liberals want to solve the problem by throwing money at it. That is how liberals brought us Ronald Reagan and the modern conservative movement.
Now we are doing the same thing for Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan, because liberals can’t bring themselves to support progressives without a sneer and with their fingers crossed behind their backs.
Carper is not the problem; Carper is the symptom. Carper’s Dem voting record is not that bad. The problem is that the Democratic bills he votes for suck. Democrats keep putting up the kind of legislation that a Tom Carper can vote for.
Carper actually voted FOR the progressive versions of health care and the tax cut extension, secure in the knowledge that Democrats had set them up to be filibustered.
Unstable Isotope,
Even if the relativly powerless democratic base deserves some blame for democratic failures, You, Cassandra, and Bill are too eager to dole out the blame disproportionately . Frankly it is obnoxious. I’d love to see even a little bit of the scorn that you save for the powerless to be directed to the relatively powerful Democratic leadership. That is much too much to ask apparently.
Cassandra,
I stand corrected. However, I still think that the content of the letter speaks eloquently to the impact that leadership can have on a movement.
Carper specifically undermined the public option. So much for more revisionist history from you.
The benefits would not have been extended — there were not 60 votes to extend them and a few Democrats were off of the reservation on that. Earlier bills to extend even failed in the House. Why do you continue to ignore this? I know the answer, actually, but sheesh, how much dishonesty do you think you can get away with?
This past recession is quite different from the one Clinton tried to recover from –which is another thing I can’t fathom why you don’t know. This downturn is due to weak demand — of which the housing crisis is still ground zero of much of the pain. Letting the tax cuts expire won’t produce jobs. It will put a serious dent in the deficit in the coming years. Which doesn’t have a damn thing to do with jobs or investment in jobs since the people who power the economy aren’t spending much money now and will have even less to spend once the tax cuts expire. Interest rates are crazily low and lending is weak, so you won’t get the benefit of increased money supply available for business investment. There won’t be much more business investment until people buy more stuff. And that won’t be helped with the tax cuts expiring. Which isn’t to say that the tax cuts shouldn’t expire, but keeping people spending is why there is a proposed limit on the income bracket that would have to bear that.
It is telling that you have to throw around supply-sider name calling when the thing that is completely clear is that you haven’t a clue how the economy works — you just want your purist bullshit. Which isn’t worth supporting. What I want is a government that works and works for middle class and working class people. And that won’t happen when so-called progressives can’t bring themselves to view the field as it is and have to wrap themselves up in alternate histories, retreats on previous positions, bad information and just plain silliness in order to insist on their purity. Purity they don’t even back up with any action. Just name-calling and spin. Once you stop with that and start delivering on the stuff you calling to care about then maybe people will treat you seriously. But until then, we get that you keep this up largely because you know that you are that impotent.
You can have your purity — I’m in it for a government that actually works for the people who need it. Which includes the huge number of people who needed those UI benefits that you so freely throw away on their behalf.
See also: Reich and Krugman.
I’d love to see even a little bit of the scorn that you save for the powerless to be directed to the relatively powerful Democratic leadership.
They get away with what they *can* get away with. Who will stop them? Apparently progressives are too victimized to do it.
🙄
If I were a shitty chickenhearted democratic leader, I’d be comforted to have such effective apologists.
It’s not called “apologists” and you know it. But this is the usual sign that you don’t have much else besides your victimization here. Thankfully (for me, at least), the civil rights struggle never capitulated to their very real victimization.
the air must be thin up there on that pedestal. Progressives work VERY hard in Wisconsin. Buy into the left wing establishment media spin if you want, but all those people were thrown under the bus by the democratic “leaders” They WORKED THEIR BUTTS OFF to collect signatures, GOTV, raise awareness, rally….. and they were defeated by 2 Koch-heads with big bank accounts because the “leaders” you hold so dear couldn’t be bothered to help.
But Clinton……. NO. He isnt an elected official anymore and would have run no risk
The families ejected from the middle class aren’t real victims? Hearing your arguments must double their despair.
Puck, if they just Democrated harder, they wouldnt be in their position. It’s THEIR fault Obama didnt help them, it’s THEIR FAULT for being selfish and going to work and tending to their families. It’s not like it’s anyone’s job to participate in politics or anything. It’s not like we can send representatives of our beliefs to a central meeting place to fight on our behalf while we sit back like kings.
Families that have been ejected from the middle class and/or who can no longer get to that rung are the real victims. But you can’t be surprised I think that, since I’m the only one in this conversation who is defending the UI benefits extension and all of the other stimulative stuff that came with it.
Now explain to me how cutting off UI benefits or some of the other stimulus measures gotten in that compromise would have helped those families get back to the middle class.
I guess we never understood how tenuous our prosperity really was. The middle class was no more prepared to defend its assets than a nunnery invaded by Vikings.
“since I’m the only one in this conversation who is defending the UI benefits extension and all of the other stimulative stuff that came with it. ”
You are also the only one defending the tax cuts for the rich as the only way to get the UI extension. The ends did not justify the means. The UI cuts could have been easily restored the following year by a demoralized GOP Congress swamped by complaints from their unemployed consitituents.
The tax cut extension guaranteed a perpetual jobless recovery and more cuts in services (check the headlines), devastating the unemployed for years to come. And in the long run it cheapened the Democratic brand, which removes the last defender of equitable prosperity for all. The price of the UI extension was too high.
It would have been far better to have expired the tax cuts, which would have reoriented investor behavior back toward hiring and investment (which would increase demand), and we would be seeing a stronger recovery by now instead of worrying that we will lose the election over unemployment.
Oh stop. You arent the only one who cares about UI benefits.
I dunno puck, should i try again? maybe slamming my head against a brick wall with get through this time.
It is obvious the GOP, who is evil and rotten to the core, will try and take another hostage in order to expend the tax cuts…… something they promised they wouldn’t do.. but only a fool would have believed them.
I DESPERATELY want to think that Obama will be able to beat them this time. Save the hostage and end the tax cuts for the Pigs. Can you at least…. and feel free to insult me in your answer…. understand why, based on historical events……. those of us who feel this way… feel this way?.. and 2 parter, so make sure you get your jabs in… since you still seem to have faith, and feel free to also insult me with the answer to this, explain why I shouldnt feel like the same old stuff is happening.
The price of the UI extension was too high.
Once again, glibly said by someone who could easily throw away something that families ejected from the middle class badly needed. And weren’t going to get otherwise, inspite of your fantasy demoralized GOP deciding to cooperate. In spite of the clear evidence that the GOP demoralized or otherwise were’t cooperating with anything.
Perhaps those families ejected from the middle class will thank you for your purity.
I said “apologists” and I meant it. Cassandra and Bill Maher are litterally apologizing for, and excusing the lackluster performance of our Democratic leadership and blaming that poor performance on the realativly powerless Democratic base.
Maybe this time we can make the tax cuts permanent in exchange for a six-month UI extension?
I guess if you don’t understand that the investment tax cuts caused the unemployment in the first place, then you will be willing to trade them away for a song.
what are you even talking about anymore cassandra?
How come you cant answer simple questions like…
“what is the basis for your faith? id like to share it, please enlighten me?”
that was a serious question and you give a bratty answer like ‘well you hate families” and probably stuck your tongue out at the computer screen. What a freakin joke.
and by the way, I had to rely on UI to feed myself a couple times. luckily i was able to get jobs, and now i happily pay into it for others who haven’t.
Remember kids, its YOUR fault your elected officials dont do their jobs.
As for who owns the title of victim here, I’ll simple point out that you are doggedly defending a small group of people who were hired to do jobs, at the expense of people who you think should have full-time volunteer jobs ontop of thier existing full-time jobs.
If you and Bill Maher were feeling less victimized by the laziness of the Democratic base, I doubt we’d get into these threads.
In the end it looks like Republican divide-and-conquer is ridiculously successful, and most Americans are still too fat and happy to get active and stop shoveling their money to the rich. Maybe 25% unemployment will do it?
Just like in the 1930s, we will need to starve for five years before we are ready to re-implement progressive policies. I’ve always said the first universal health care and broad stimulus and relief programs will be implemented on an emergency basis by frightened Republicans in response to a massive economic crash they have created.
No one is apologizing for or excusing lackluster Democratic leadership.
And you will need to link to where I have specifically done that or STFU.
I have persistently and routinely asked what it is that progressives are doing to hold this lackluster leadership accountable. And all I get is revisionist history, victimology, strawmen (creating arguments I’m not making) and a fair amount of dancing away from the very specific point I make here. But hey, it makes you uncomfortable and I get that. No one works that hard otherwise, right?
I’m not being victimized by the Democratic base or by progressives (and that wasn’t even a good try at deflection). Progressives who think that they are the entirety of the Democratic base set themselves up for disappointment. If I’m victimized by anything it is a Senate that needs 60 votes to get anything done and Congressional Democrats who see little percentage in standing up for more Democratic values.
But amuse me by setting up a strawman or revisionist history for that, why don’t you?
At least teabaggers understand enough of the democratic process to know that the way to deal with their heretics is to call them out mercilessly and then vote against them. Not to make excuses for them.
“And you will need to link to where I have specifically done that or STFU.” oh you’re such a good spin doctor, you’re right. You never said “i am apologizing for the weak-ass democrat leadership who was given a job to do, but is incapable of doing it without being forced… something that anyone else would be fired for after a week”
You never said that. you win.
“at the expense of people who you think should have full-time volunteer jobs ontop of thier existing full-time jobs.”
spot-freakin-on.
Apologist:
“They get away with what they *can* get away with. Who will stop them? Apparently progressives are too victimized to do it.”
Try again, fool. That’s nowhere near an apology. That’s one more gauntlet I threw at the victimization you are ohso comfy with.
As an alternate case — GOP leadership is kowtowing all over the place to teajadis. Because they aren’t allowed much space on the leash.
lol. Just as you can’t make leadership unimportant by decree, you can’t un-apologist by decree.
Just as some people will never accept the legitimacy of Obama, some will never accept criticism of him.
Neither sort deserves your attention.
Why not this..? I’ll accept that the Dem base deserves a little poke for laziness and you accept that the leadership deserves a little of the same medicine fo chickeneheartedness?
It is the all out unwillingness to blame dem leaders for any of it that is getting to me.
Excellent point.
Well, Obama has now committed to a fairly progressive platform, at least in his rhetoric. I can’t complain about his current campaign positions, except to carp about his track record on those same positions.
Expiring tax cuts on the rich., protecting the safety net, and providing stimulus spending are once again the current position of the President. Until further notice, these positions belong to Democrats, not just the progressive wing. So now in this election season, every Democrat is obliged to hold their Congresssmen accountable for supporting the President’s position, especially on the major economic planks. Division on the economic platform will lose the election. Unless you genuinely disagree with his positions?
It’s not just a purist or progressive pony anymore – if you are a Democrat it is your pony too. What are you doing to bring the ponies home?
Too little, too late.
Just as you can’t make leadership unimportant by decree, you can’t un-apologist by decree.
Which, of course, isn’t what is going on here. The only point I’m making is one that ought to be self-evident — political leadership isn’t just a top down thing. It *is*, of course the so-called progressive narrative, because they share with their conservative counterparts a deep need for a Political Daddy. You keep running right past the comparisons to the teajadis, because that is the example of real political work getting done. No doubt that it isn’t all grassroots, but these people do show up and they collect scalps. They are working at holding their guys accountable. Progressives think that outsourcing leadership and accountability in a *Democracy* to someone else while they point fingers behind their lattes about how everyone has failed. Except you, of course.
This is the current state of progressives. Apparently utterly paralyzed while they wait for Their Leader.
Behind their lattes….. you have such distain for your fellow progressives, dont you?
of course it isnt a top down thing. I point, again, to Wisconsin. the people did all they could possibly do…. and when it came time for an elected leader to show up and lead…. they wussed-out, the media pretended it wasnt a huge deal, and the people will pay the price. What say you to that? We gave them a chance, and the shit right down our throats.
And wait for a leader? are you kidding me with that? we chose a damn leader. We put an unknown, inexperienced senator in the white house because he said he was a leader. we worked for 3 years to build him up and hire him for a job.
NOw, yes. here is the part you wont read before you unload on me…..but i’ll go ahead anyway…. the GOP undermined his presidency… Piss-ant “democrat” congressmen like Lincoln, Nelson, Carper helped the GOP and their monied buddies….. where is your holy fire against Dems who have betrayed Dems? Are you saying that POls can do their elected job unless they are harrassed 24/7 by the people they promised to represent?
You can only call Carper so many times before you realize you arent important enough to listen to.