QOTD — Should Penn State Football Get the Death Penalty?
Buzz Bissinger has written one righteous condemnation of the Penn State football program and Penn State administration in this week’s Daily Beast. He suggests the NCAA impose a 5 year ban for Penn State’s football program — something that would certainly be meaningful to Penn State as a punishment.
From the article (and you should read the whole thing:
When I heard the words “accountability” and “responsibility,” the words entitled people use to act as if they will do something when they won’t, I sank, once again like many of you, into a funk of deflation and disappointment. Writing about Penn State football has never been about me. It has been about the fact that college football, as admittedly exciting as it is, serves no academic purpose and in the end, can destroy a school’s reputation.
The board should have announced yesterday that the upcoming season of football at Penn State will be cancelled. It would have been a sincere and needed message to the world that the football culture will no longer be sustained. For the innocent players caught up in this monstrosity, the answer is easy—release them from their scholarship commitments to Penn State and let them go elsewhere without the normal period of having to sit out a year. That way they would not be punished for the sins of others.
In addition, Joe Paterno’s family wants to start its own investigation. Which seems like a cynical way to play this business — get your own official story to compete with the Freeh report. In other words, blow off any pretense for accountability or responsibility to those who were hurt in this scandal and go about the business of creating your own He Say She Say narrative.
So what do you think? Should Penn State Football get the death penalty?
I don’t think the players, students and alumni should suffer for the bad decisions of the leadership.
1. This isnt about you or them or a GOD DAMN GAME! Dont dare try to paint anyone as the victim other than the little boys who were analy raped by Sandusky while Paterno knew about it any did nothing. While the school administration knew about it and did nothing. Winning football games not only became more important that offering a good education, it became more important that the futures of little children who were already impoverished and in tough situations.
Paterno is burning in hell right now.
sorry for getting riled, but EVERYTHING in this case is more important that the 3 years of college football glory some meathead might get at PSU, or the tailgating joys fans might experience. Screw them, screw college football, screw PSU.
and yeah. axe the football program. Kill it for any school that spends more money on sports than any of it’s REAL educational departments.
It would have to come from Penn State. This…”The board should have announced yesterday that the upcoming season of football at Penn State will be canceled.”
…is much different than the NCAA canceling the season.
Independently and apart from a judge telling them what to do, the university also has to figure out how to try and get some justice for the victims.
sb, I agree with you. I just think the focus needs to be on the offenders. Everyone on the board, administration and coaching staff should be purged. Corbett should be out too, as well as half the AG’s in PA for missing it.
I don’t know what punishment Penn State deserves, but punishment for Penn State is separate from the concept of reform for big college football.
The NCAA along with Penn State and all the top football programs should do a root-cause analysis and come up with a new system of governance for college football programs: controls, accountability, and a reduction in money and the influence of money. Otherwise they are all at risk of more scandals – if not child molestation then something else.
The crimes and circumstances HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PENN STATE FOOTBALL PROGRAM. Sandusky was retired by the time McQuery witnessed the assault that he reported to Paterno. Sandusky had use of the facilities at the college as a comp from the Athletic Dept. Paterno reported an accusation THAT HE DID NOT WITNESS to the higher authority as he was bound to do. It was the higher authorities at the school THAT FUCKED IT ALL UP. They had the ball, so to speak.
Tobyz, i thin the issue here is the atmosphere and the culture that the football program created. Football was more important, football was the top priority, football football football. Yes, the administration belongs in jail, but who’s to say the next crop of people in charge wont simply learn to hide the bad stuff better? The culture of sports being God is one of the central problems in this case. Think about how other (sigh, alleged) rapists who are important to sports teams are STILL PLAYING
walt, the crimes and circumstances WERE the penstate football program. Paterno, the child rape enabler, was BOUND to report what he knew to THE COPS. The fact that ANYONE recognized “the highest authority” to be an athetics director is yet another example of how toxic sports worship is.
Come on. Why is different than Coursey at Sussex Tehnical High? Let’s fire all the teachers, coaches, principal, admin staff, blah, blah.
Penn State is on a pedestal. Pedestal sitters are prime targets because, well because we hate pedestal sitters.
People screwed up at Penn State. People are guilty of protecting Penn State and ignoring the plight of the victims. Let’s deal with the individuals who were culpable. While there is an institutional identity to Penn State, Penn State is a not a live person. You don’t punish organizations unless you are an advocate of holding every member of the organization culpable, including everyone from students to janitors (who would lose their jobs maintaining a stadium). The generalization that everybody from Penn State should be penalized is no different than punishing everyone who is a member of a specific class because of the trangressions of one.
We should recognize the difference doing what’s right versus knocking them down a peg or two.
Go ahead and fire them, Dave. If you did no one would ever keep silent again.
I’m really tired of excuses like this. Oh, children were raped and the people in charge decided that the institution mattered more. That’s sad, but let’s not punish them. It’s not everyone’s fault.
Actually, it’s the institution’s, and the culture surrounding it, fault. At Penn State, raping children was a-okay because flippin’ football was more important.
I think what’s right is destroying the atmosphere that created the idea that it was ok to do what they did. Is it just coincidence that all those rotten people ended up in the same place at the same time with just the right jobs that allowed them to do what they did? no way.
Ben, Paterno didn’t KNOW anything because HE DIDN’T WITNESS ANYTHING.He did his duty and it was the others who were to blame. And I stand by my position that IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PENN STATE FOOTBALL PROGRAM.
He didn’t know anything because he turned a blind eye.
Your position is yours to defend, but it’s untenable. If this had happened in the physics department, would it have gone uninvestigated and unreported?
SMU got the death penalty over breaking the rules about *money*. I’m having a hard time understanding why Penn State shouldn’t get the death penalty over protecting a known sexual predator.
One possible solution — one that doesn’t hurt the athletes who weren’t complicit in this mess:
Let Penn State play football — with free admission to the games, no new athletic scholarships and no tailgating outside the stadium.
Football like it used to be — the kids play, the fans watch, and the only money anyone makes is from selling hot dogs.
Sure, some would rather see the stadium stand empty for years … but, economically, PSU would be paying a far greater penalty by having to operate the football program without having a revenue stream to sustain it.
So … they won’t do it.
MW: The athletes would not suffer if football were suspended. The players would be allowed to transfer to other schools if they wanted to continue to play.
I think intramural games would make good use of the stadium.
“Paterno didn’t KNOW anything…He did his duty and it was the others who were to blame.”
To their credit, the board backed a truly independent which found exactly the opposite.
The idea that you must witness a crime to have knowledge of it is pure nonsense. We all know that, right?
Walt, What kind of a person hears about repeated child rape by one of their employee’s and doesn’t look into past… what, passing the info on to a superior?…. What ever happened to personal responsibility? Ill tell you. A person who feel more powerful than the law. A person who feels more important than other people… he wasnt. he was a college football coach. His job contributed nothing of importance so society and his life’s legacy is that a game is more important that a child’s well-being. Paterno get’s a free pass because… why exactly? Are you an Alum? is that why you are defending this scumbag?
Mediawatch, i actually really like your solution. no more glitzy scholarships for jocks rather than funding research. Every dollar that was spent on PSU football, in some way helped foster a haven for Sandusky instead of going to something important. Please someone tell me all the things that happen at a UNIVERSITY that are less important that a football game. I’ll start… the color of the sprinkles for the ice cream bar at the dining hall.
There are a significant number of athletes in sports other than football at PSU that are literally subsidized by football revenues.
Many Title IX as well.
Quite a conundrum of punishing the wicked and the innocent.
I dread the coming day when a sports announcer talks about “the adversity” being overcome by the PSU football team… the courage they will demonstrate in the face of this “trying time for PSU football”. As if they will be the ultimate victims of this. There is something seriously wrong with the soul of this country.
“Paterno didn’t KNOW anything…He did his duty and it was the others who were to blame.”
Uh-oh – he’s using the Romney defense!
Paterno “retroactively reported” the crimes.
Finally, someone, a conservative no less, points out that the former AG and current Governor of Pennsylvania has a lot of explaining to do:
http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2012/07/16/opinion/doc500484c4eef82305964009.txt?viewmode=fullstory
Here are the questions the columnist asks Governor Corbett:
1. Based on a decade’s worth of evidence of Sandusky’s predatory activities, why did it take the Attorney General’s Office three years to arrest him? I fully understand that it takes time to conduct an investigation, but as numerous prosecutors have stated, you could have arrested him quickly and continued building the case.
2. Why was the investigation so understaffed? Yes, you just now claimed – after eight months – that media reports are wrong that only one investigator was assigned the case for the first 15 months. The real number, as you now state, was a whopping two. We know you were busy with Bonusgate, but political corruption never threatens anyone’s physical well-being, particularly defenseless children.
3. Do you believe ethical and moral lines were crossed when, after investigating Penn State as Attorney General, you then participated as a member of the Board of Trustees upon becoming governor?
4. As governor, why did you personally approve a $3 million taxpayer-funded grant to Sandusky’s Second Mile charity, given your knowledge that Sandusky was under investigation for multiple child rapes?
BTW – I just heard that Penn State is keeping the statue of Paterno, but turning it so he looks away.
ftw
I don’t know much about Penn State football and wasn’t paying that much attention to the Sandusky case. But suddenly I just wondered why Sandusky retired while Paterno continued on. So I looked it up:
Those of you who were paying more attention probably already knew this, but I didn’t. Holy Crap! Paterno and the Penn State brass handled this like a bunch of Catholic bishops.
Penn State leadership knew and they allowed Sandusky to keep using their facilities to lure young children into his charity so he could rape them.
Penn State’s janitors knew and did nothing so they wouldn’t lose their jobs.
A Penn State Assistant Football Coach knew and instead of calling the police he went to Joe Paterno because his father told him to consult with Paterno and not to call the police.
A victim went to his school guidance counselor and this is what happened:
Eventually the teen asked his mother if there was a website used to track sex offenders because he wanted to see if Sandusky was on it. That ultimately led to a meeting with the guidance counselor, where he reported being abused.
At first, the counselor didn’t believe him and questioned the wisdom of going to authorities, the witness said.
“They said we needed to think about it and he has a heart of gold and he wouldn’t do something like that. So they didn’t believe me,” he said.
I consider the entire f*cking town complicit in child rape in order to protect a f*cking football program. Shut down the f*cking football program for 3 years or so, teach every college and every college town in the United States of America a lesson they will never forget.
In situations like this, often the emotional response is wrong. We fire a bullet into a body and live with the consequences forever.
We have law for a reason. In order to judge in a impassioned way, of who is guilty, and who is innocent.
Stopping football at Penn State will have no effect. If there is a pedophile right now lurking in the stadiums of Northwestern University, San Diego State, Boston College, University of Miami, his actions are in no way going to be stopped by the fact that Penn State won’t get to play football.
Likewise if any person knowledgeable of such action being currently undertaken, he is certainly never going to take the courage to step up saying “this is wrong” if the consequence will be the loss of his school’s football program. In fact such a punishment would make the cover up even more important to become airtight. Witness the Catholic Church of the 80’s.
No. For justice to occur, the people responsible and only those responsible, need to be punished. Students, alumni, trustees, parents, and everyone else who was just as surprised by the initial arrest as you were, do not need to endure punishment.
In fact, history shows that punishing the wrong people creates bigger problems than solve the one at hand. Great Britain decided that America should pay for the war fought on its behalf against the French and Indians, and levied a tax, probably fair according to todays standards, and America no longer is a gem in the crown.
Draconian punishment was exerted upon Germany after the first World War. They needed to pay it was said. Instead, the debts went unpaid and we got Hitler and another war in the process. The second time, we simply forgave and yes, America fixed the problem for good.
There is an ugly masochistic tendency in certain segments of our population. “You need to suffer because I suffered”. All that does is double the suffering, when a smarter approach would be… lets do this, get over it and move on.
With the money it takes in, I think the University can do an awful lot of good preventing Child Abuse. In fact, just sponsoring an anti-abuse campaign to children on cartoon channels so they know it is ok to tell on an abuser and that his threats are meaningless in the real world of law, would go an awful long way of turning this bad event into something good.
And that friends, when you can take something bad and turn it into something good, is the real definition of character. As a nation, that is the direction we need to go.
State College becomes the third largest city in PA on game days. Killing the football program would cost local businesses quite a bit of money and jobs, another subsection of people who would be negatively impacted despite having nothing to do with hurting the children.
I just thought I would mention that because I haven’t seen anyone else bring it up in these comments. It’s another thing to consider in this very complicated decision the NCAA and Penn State will have to make.
fine, If a whole town protects a child-raping monster, who whole town should suffer.
Will someone please think of the businesses?
Certainly there is a great deal of pain involved with giving Penn State the death penalty. But the pain is the idea, right? making certain that the pain of not even living up to their own standards gets etched into Penn State’s DNA.
The flip side of this is that Penn State owed more to its entire community than to put it all at risk just for the sake of one sexual predator.
“Killing the football program would cost local businesses quite a bit of money and jobs, another subsection of people who would be negatively impacted despite having nothing to do with hurting the children.”
If we scientifically proved that the waters of Lourdes are nothing but plain old H2O, a whole town’s worth of religious trinket peddlers will be out of work. So should we refrain from pointing it out?
Draconian punishment was exerted upon Germany after the first World War. They needed to pay it was said. Instead, the debts went unpaid and we got Hitler and another war in the process. The second time, we simply forgave and yes, America fixed the problem for good.
WTF? After WWII the US and the USSR split Germany in half, or did I imagine that the Berlin Wall existed? The post WWII punishment was much harsher than the post WWI punishment, just ask anyone who lived in Soviet controlled Germany who didn’t disappear for dissent.
Letting Penn State throw a few bake sales to apologize for allowing children to be raped won’t work. Crippling them will not only prevent anything like this from ever happening at Penn State again, it will also keep other universities from doing the same thing.
Penn State football earned $53 million last year, the third-highest total in the NCAA. The university has an endowment of $1.8 billion. And last year PSU raised about $208 million, its second-highest total ever.
The money is there for Penn State to fund its non-revenue sports. Many universities do this without a football factory. Penn State could also help the people in the community who rely on money related to the football program: ushers, vendors, waiters, hotel workers, etc., and have enough left over for the civil suits it will have to settle and the legal bills it will have to pay. Apparently there was enough there for Joe Paterno to negotiate a $5.5 million retirement buyout, family access to the university’s private charter, 25 years’ use of a luxury box at Beaver Stadium, and forgiveness of a loan from PSU.
By the way, cutting sports if football is shut down would likely lead to Title IX-based lawsuits. Penn State also is bound to face federal sanction for violating the Cleary Act for refusing to report crime statistics to the government as required by law. Oh, this IS a football problem.
But if the football program is too big to fail, and we don’t want to punish the people there now, how about Penn State has 3 years of no television appearances and no bowl games; free admission and parking (as was mentioned above); concession revenue going to child abuse prevention; restricted spring and summer practice; a reduction in scholarships from 85 to 60; and coaches who make no more than the highest-paid professor (since the program will not be a cash cow for several years)?
Tough luck for Happy Valley. They are all part and parcel to the Jockocrasy that is Penn State.
Should those business’ who benefitted from a system that protected a child molester not pay a price?
Of all the arguments, fiscal implications should be at the bottom of the list.
Unless you went to Penn State, or a school like it,you cannot begin to appreciate the power that sports programs reign over the college.
PSU should pay a price. A big, high profile price. Not seeing PSU football on tv for a year would be a start. That would begin to send a message to other sports programs that they are not above the law, repsonsibility or doing the right thing.
If a janitor had been caught with a boy in the showers he would have been fired immediately, up on charges and in jail. And all that without a $168k severance package.
Also, Kavips,Germany should have been punished for both wars. And they were. Google the Potsdam Conference. Splitting it into two and occupying it, I would consider, is punishment also.
PUS getting punished may not stop the hypothetical child molester you refer to Kavips, but this high profile case, I hope, will put initiatives in place to keep it from happening again. You know, like requiring the guidance councilor to report the incident? Or, better yet, knowing or partaking in a coverup could get your college suspended. Much like other rules that the NCAA has.
The Boy Scouts were sued several times for not doing enough to stop child molesters. Over the following years, the BSA created new policies and procedures to follow. No doubt this won’t stop it, but at least they are trying.
agree with kavips.
The dead-enders are girding for long-term battle. One Paterno defender emailed me:
“In 1998 and in 2001, sexual behavior with children by Sandusky was never disclosed to Paterno. Never was aberrant behavior an issue for Sandusky’s retirement. There is no evidence — no exhibits, notes, memos, letters — that anyone communicated to Joe that sexual behavior with children was occurring.”
The only hole in my argument above appears to be the German occupation post WWII. Of course the perspective of my comments were limited to the West’s side of Germany, since the East was taken by a different entity. The Potsdam was a good compromise. The Russians lost far more human beings than did the USA so dividing up Germany into equal parts made sense. The only way the US could have prevented that was to go to war with Russia immediately after Germany fell. In fact, the US military, particularly the Third division under Patton, was convinced the US needed to take on those occupying Russian troops. Patton thought Potsdam was a mistake, and many of his underlings still bring that up today. But, since my argument was showing the benefit of forgiving and moving on, the dichotomy of East and West Germany and the differences over time on either side of the line, is just as good of a representation of what I was trying to say as anything else.
Making people suffer simply to appease YOUR outrage, is simply wrong.
The big hole in the argument is the implication that ending Penn State football would increase pedophilia, as tough sanctions on Germany after WWI increased their militarism.
Actually the hole in your argument is in how strenuously a society ought to protect its children from these kinds of predators. A community that wants to dodge that responsibility isn’t much of a community at all.
It is completely remarkable to me that people are perfectly willing to give Penn State and its football program a pass on this. The NCAA has served up the death penalty to schools that do no worse than violate their rules about paying their student athletes. Yet turning the other way while a program essentially harbored a sexual predator is reason to pause.
Being outraged that a sexual predator was allowed to operate pretty freely within that program *should* be normal. But this behavior goes beyond outrage to the basic rules that we want our society to operate by. Preying upon children is a fairly bipartisan no-no. Sending a signal that a community is serious about its boundaries is a basic function of community. And *any means necessary* seems reasonable to me and plenty of other people who think that drawing a pretty bright line around our kids is worth it.
not to mention the notion that a community not getting their weekly violence fix is anywhere close to the level of suffering that even one child faced.
want to talk about the Germans and WW2? that whole society was complacent and many were active in the Holocaust. Eisenhower forcing the near by townfolk to burry the dead after he liberated Ohrdruf was a brilliant way to force them to understand what their blind allegence to a “great man” cost humanity…. hmmm it does sound familiar…..
As far as the “oh but the economy!!!!” all the money will still be around. rather than people spending money on a team jersey that was made in china, maybe they will spend it on something of actual importance.
i think socialistic ben (and probably others here) just doesn’t like football. sort out the emotion you already felt about this from the legitimate question about what to do with this football program now.
I like football plenty.
I just think that making sure that everyone gets the message that safe kids is a higher priority than my football fix.
Plugging more holes. Jason, I don’t see your connection. Were you taking the hole theme of my argument a applying it to those who were proposing shutting down of football? That is how it came across.
In case it was aimed my way, I don’t see how pedophilia would or could increase depending upon whether Penn State had its football taken away. I did mention it might cause people already aware of existing acts to clamp up tighter. When you increase the stakes you make it less likely that openness exists. I don’t see that as a hole. I see it as a very real concern. If another McCreary exists out there somewhere in another college stadium, the choice of whether Penn State does or does not get its football sanctioned, can determine the direction that the that other McCreary will choose to make. “The witness chooses not to come forward.”
The best bet is: those responsible and only those responsible get punished. This absurd notion that making the penalty so severe it will cause others to think twice is missing this fact. The event occurred long ago. You are punishing people today. It simply doesn’t work.
It is the same as saying every parent needs to be punished for their child’s action. Except in this case we are talking about siblings, or cousins, or cousins twice removed, or half cousins twice removed.. We are talking about punishing people who have absolutely nothing whatsoever with what went on.
Cheating on the rules of football, developing a winning team illegally, and winning titles because you disobeyed the rules, does apply here in this case. These are the NCAA death penalty cases you refer to. In them there was collusion and a lot of moving parts which point to the intent of the entire structure of that organization to subvert and cheat the system put in place to maintain fairness over the whole realm of football. Since the entire structure of the organization was subverted to succeed on the field, removing the right to play on that field for a certain amount of time, is a punishment directly related to the crime.
There has to be a direct connection between punishment and crime. Instead the argument before us is to punish everyone who is a student, alumni, faculty, janitor, grounds-keeper, for something no one knew about until it hit the news-wires
Yes, protecting kids from being abused is a very noble cause. As I mentioned, before, there are ways of making those directly responsible for it do something beneficial to society in return. I feel your pain. I’ve ripped the Catholic Church apart for the very same reason. They need to pay up for what they did. That was “the Church” who was at fault; not one or two perpetrators who kept it between themselves. The Church was at fault: the Church must pay.
Penn State is not the same. Penn State did not promote the abuse of children. Penn State did not cover up the fact when they finally found out. They fired Paterno. They fired the President who was going… “why me? I didn’t know.” Penn State was unfortunate that it occurred on their property. There will be continue to be some debate, I am sure, over whether Joe Paterno was really involved. Bottom line, is it happened.
Punishing an whole organization for some improprieties taken by a few is not right. Cassandra, you know this. We both decried the unfairness when ACORN ceased to exist, because of a incident in one office. But, WHOA… all the Republicans jumped on and said, they need to pay, they need to pay, this is an outrage, they need to pay, and Senator Carper, Coons, and Representative Carney all piled on. Darlene Battle was told she had to be out of her office in a week.
ACORN disappeared. Now, no one is signing up disenfranchised voters in any Democratic stronghold. Republicans are cheering.
Did it send a signal? Was anyone listening? Did it stop prostitution in its tracks? Are we a better society because of it? We sure won’t be if Romney squeaks in on November 6th, will we?
These are all emotional arguments. But they all point to one thing. You attack those responsible and try your best to minimize collateral damage.
That should be everyone’s maxim in life.
Penn State did not cover up the fact when they finally found out. They fired Paterno.
You need to read the Freeh report. Stop lecturing people here about their moral stance should be until you do. Seriously. It goes back to the late 90’s and they ALL KNEW.
The report was read, and I’m surprise you missed the flaws and assumptions that generated his conclusions. One might say, they were very Freeh’d like assumptions?
And I’m surprised that you would claim to have read it. The report includes much direct evidence like emails that no one saw before. What I have seen is a spate of apologists who all have the same line — flaws and assumptions — without ever detailing those in any way that relates to the report that Freeh submitted.
Ahh, you seem to have mushed up the argument.
The argument up to now was whether all of Penn State should suffer the punishment of having their football program removed. You said yes, I said no. I said those who perpetrated the scam for better word should be the ones punished.
The Freeh report lists four people… Paterno, Curley, Spanier, and Shultz. I am not protecting those. Of those: the emails show lying on the part of three to the grand jury this past year. Those three were Schultz, Curley, and Spanier, all who said they only learned of the event subsequent to Sandusky’s arrest. Emails prove otherwise. There is only allusion to Paterno. In that email, it is Freeh’s assumption that the topic is Paterno. It is Freeh’s assumption; written right there in the report. The Paterno lead is a dead end because with his death it will never truly be resolved.
Knowing academia, I could see how this exchange could take place in a way that Paterno would not be aware of it. In academia, everyone talks out the side of their mouth. But, then in fairness, I am doing exactly what the other side is doing, making suppositions.
For some reason no charges were pressed by the mother; she only knows why. We need to hear from the mother of the son who brought up allegations in 1998. For some reason that evidence is not there. One would think it would be across the entire internet. (Anyone find anything?) Was she bought off; Was her silence guaranteed? Eventually we will find out.
But essentially the Freeh report itself, says this occured in 1998, email show they knew about it, nothing was done.
That is not enough to shut down Penn State’s football. It does incriminate the three and maybe the fourth involved…
I haven’t mushed up anything. Especially since I was the one who started this conversation, yes?
You are the one lecturing us that things may not be as bad as they seem. And that those of us appalled at what they did are somehow misguided in that.
The Freeh report lists four people… Paterno, Curley, Spanier, and Shultz.
The Freeh report also goes into the motivation behind these 4 covering it up. Which is why the NCAA is currently being invoked. Which you should know.
These 4 people sacrificed a bunch of kids in order to protect their football program and let that go on for years. They placed money and prestige over the safety of those kids. The school clearly can’t be trusted to do the right thing, so now it is time for the NCAA to step up. PSU couldn’t have had that football program without the NCAA and now it is up to them to send the message that the safety of children is not more important than a successful foot ball program.
Part of the reasons no charges were filed are in the report. And while PSU staff were dancing around Sandusky then, they never asked him to get counseling, never considered monitoring his activities on campus, never considered suspending the activities of Second Mile. They didn’t do any of the things that even some of their own procedures call for — while during the same time period they came down like a ton of bricks on a guy who bought a few hundred dollars worth of goods for a player.
The Freeh report isn’t just about the 4. It is about a sick culture that could use a big time out to rehabilitate itself.
The PSU incident seems so much more cut and dry (at least there were witnesses that could blow the whistle) than the Earl Bradley incident. Perhaps Kavips would like to defend Bradley. Kill the program already.
The best bet is: those responsible and only those responsible get punished. This absurd notion that making the penalty so severe it will cause others to think twice is missing this fact. The event occurred long ago. You are punishing people today. It simply doesn’t work.
And who are “those responsible”? Would that be Thomas Harmon, the campus police chief who told the AG to “close” the 1998 inquiry after several boys reported that Sandusky was touching them in the showers? Would that be the janitor who saw Sandusky engaged in “sexual activity” with a boy in a shower in 2000, or his janitor co-workers who encouraged him not to say anything because they were scared for their jobs? Would that be Assistant Coach Mike McQueary who failed to stop a 10 year old boy from being raped in the showers in 2002, or his father who told him to call Paterno instead of the police, or Paterno and the administrators who swept it under the rug? Or do you mean the middle school guidance counselor who told a boy who was raped by Sandusky that Sandusky had “a heart of gold” and didn’t alert the authorities? Or do you mean the BOD of the Second Mile who were alerted of Sandusky’s unusual behavior in early 2000 and ignored it?
Or should Penn State University be punished for supporting a children’s program for years after they (administration and atletic departments) were made aware that Sandusky was abusing the children in that program, allowing Sandusky to travel to Penn State Bowl games with children, allowing Sandusky to shower in the Penn State locker room with children and allowing Sandusky to use Penn State’s facilities like a lollipop to lure children into RAPE?
And it wasn’t an “event” it was over a decade of different children being raped by Sandusky with the last rape occurring as recently as 2009. Multiple children, multiple RAPES, multiple years.
@sum guy…
I like foot ball just fine…. not as much as the people who consider it more important than academics… because it isnt…
That’s just it…. the child-rape…. let’s stop with the “abuse” and “sexual misconduct”….. The child rape happened for as long as it did because they all cared SO MUCH about football.
Do you remember what the idiot students did the night Joe Paterno was fired for letting CHILDREN GET RAPED? They rioted! they FUCKING RIOTED!!! They rioted in support of a child-rape enabler because he was good at WINNING FOOTBALL GAMES. If realizing that sports-worship has corrupted the soul of a town makes me some sort of extremeist when it comes to punishment, I’ll wear that lable proudly.
You think I just dont like football? I think you like football too much.
Lol, once again you are mushing up the conversation YOU started.
Nowhere do I say things are not as bad as they seem, you keep getting off topic. Things could be horrible, but that doesn’t preclude shutting down Penn State football for something four people did. In fact donating all proceeds from the alumni game including television revenues to child abuse, would do the prevention of child abuse far greater good than shutting down football to teach a lesson to all the wrong people.
In fact, upon a rereading of the Freeh report, I will go on a limb and make the bet that in a couple of years, all three will get off their criminal charges. Why? Because a courtroom has a higher standard of truth than public opinion. There is a lot of vagueness in the Freeh report. There are allegations, things not clearly spoken, and some very incriminating evidence never told until later. There exists a viable argument that until the arrest, Paterno did not know of the extent of the crimes committed by Sandusky. It it right there in the Freeh report.
And anon, for the record, Thomas Hermon did a thorough investigation and the evidence it turned up, did not show any criminal misconduct by Sandusky. The janitor, was talked out of reporting it by his fellow employees who were afraid they would all lose their jobs. Can you afford to simply give up your job for a principle? Perhaps, but most of us simply can’t. Truth is, had the janitor’s report been forthcoming, events could have gone a different way. McQueary, who had information equivalent to “implicating the President of the United States”, feared for his life, and went to his father first for advice. I would have too, and I hope if you are in that spot, you wisely choose to do the same. And when McQueary spoke with Paterno, according to McQueary’s own testimony, he made it sound like Sandusky was horse-playing in the shower; he failed to vividly describe beyond question of a doubt, exactly what he’d seen. No doubt, those things are very difficult to discuss.
At fault is the three who kept this under wraps. They should face trial.. All of Penn State should not be punished by banishing football.
And it is with hindsight you describe the future events. These came out of the woodwork after the first person filed a retroactive charge. We know of these rapes now; no doubt the four did not know of them at the time. Nor did Second Mile. Nor did the trustee. Nor did the coaches, students, or alumni. It is only because we now know of what transpired with Sandusky, that we are holding those who did not, to a higher standard.
I’m sure, in the quiet calm of a courtroom, where the prosecutor states his case, and the competence of a defense supported by the best that money can buy, makes its alternative argument, twelve people will put themselves into the shoes of those three, and declare: not guilty. For they will realize they would have acted in the same way.
I’ll give this to Freeh. His report is very accurate and therefore gives the legal defense team a lot of ammunition to throw back on the prosecution.
Therefore, this is now a legal matter. I hope the NCAA reads this blog and comes to their senses before they make a gross mistake.
kapvis, you really dont see the fact that an entire culture exists that lead these guys to the decision that keeping it under wraps was ok? In 10 years, somethign ELSE will happen and the almighty PSU football program will be protected at the expense of someone else. It is a rotten-to-the-core program and needs to go… or at teh VERY least rebuilt, but the message that gets sent is, “if this happens, your precious saturday afternoon tailgate party might go away”
that seems to be the only thing they’ll understand…. not “dont worry, someone ELSE will be held accountable, you just keep buyin those hotdogs and We’re #1 fingers!
another example…. the financial collapse. we (barely) punished the individuals who really messed up bad, but the culture still exists… Now there is another looming financial crisis because the institution didn’t learn it’s lesson. The institution of College football wont learn it’s lesson this time. An institution that demonstrates the capacity to protect itself at all costs will only change if you threaten it’s existence…. otherwise, the next guy will make sure he covers his tracks better.
Yes, I would, without a doubt or hesitation, give up my job to report a child being raped to the police.
The examples I gave, from the janitors to McQueary to the middle school guidance counselor – all people who were aware of child rape and tried to excuse it because Penn State Football was so fucking great shows that this wasn’t just a problem among 4 twisted asshole administrators at the school, it was the entire community.
Ben’s example of the PSU students rioting over Paterno’s firing is also a glaring example of how fucked up PSU is when it comes to football.
The NCAA doesn’t have to wait for criminal charges to impose sanctions, was SMU taken to court before they were given the “death penalty”? No. What did SMU do to get the “death penalty” from the NCAA? They paid players. Seems piddly compared to covering up children getting anally raped by a man who threatened them to keep them quiet. Hell, after the McQueary incident, Sandusky was TOLD by PSU officials about the complaint, is it a mystery why that boy was never identified?
And I’ll just be honest here, people who make excuses for what PSU did make me physically ill, and I hope they never fucking have children.
Yes, I would, without a doubt or hesitation, give up my job to report a child being raped to the police.
Not only would I, I know people who have done so. THEY are my heroes.
here, here.
This isnt about some emotional response. This isnt a REAL death penalty case where bloodlust and revenge bubbles up over rationality. No one is calling for any humans to be killed… although God knows some of them deserve it.
PSU football is a corporation and it needs to be treated like a non-person.
And if that “take down the statue or we will” airplane banner story actually happened… i hope they make good on the threat.
I don’t have to consult with my parents to know that children being raped is a crime. Any college student who can’t figure that out on their own needs to go back to elementary school and learn about “good touch” “bad touch” again.
Jesus Christ.
And it is the last 3 responses that make it pretty clear that it isn’t me mushing up the conversation.
Count me in as someone who would give up my job to report a child being raped to the police.
But here is where the BS happens:
And it is with hindsight you describe the future events. These came out of the woodwork after the first person filed a retroactive charge. We know of these rapes now; no doubt the four did not know of them at the time. Nor did Second Mile. Nor did the trustee. Nor did the coaches, students, or alumni. It is only because we now know of what transpired with Sandusky, that we are holding those who did not, to a higher standard.
It wasn’t a retroactive charge. In 1998 there was at least one mother who told the university of suspicious behavior. The investigation was lax, they didn’t even elevate the incident (much less its disposition) to Second Mile, to the PSU board, to anyone who was in a position to assessing and managing the risk to those institutions.
We know that they shut down an agent spending money illegally on a student. We also know that they turned a blind eye to every possible risk Sandusky presented to the kids and to the school.
The NCAA’s authority does not come from state or federal law. Which means that they are free to act in accordance with their own rules. And often (not often enough) do. The fact that PSU shut down the agent making NCAA verboten expenditures makes it clear that they knew what NCAAs authority was. They didn’t wait for court proceedings on that — why would they for this?
I’m with anon, that anyone can give these institutions a pass for being more concerned about agents spending money on athletes than they were about kids in the sights of a possible predator is pretty disgusting.
Steve, as well it should be and I would give a hats off to anon above for giving up his job. I wonder if both your heroes and yourself would in reality be so quick to do so if it meant you would be without food or a house or a vehicle in less than ten days, if they did?
Point is, there are different standards of right or wrong. I’m sure that person is very upset with himself now for not taking the high ground. This is an interesting moral connundrum. For if I was wealthy, or wealthy enough to survive the future job search with a no hire from my last employeer, I would do the same. But and I’m playing devil’s advocate here, what if it meant my children wouldn’t have food? Here I, as a janitor, would be opening a can of worms over one child who seemed to be happy with the outcome, at least from the observation in the Freeh report, and my own children forced to starve? I don’t think you can point a finger at such a decision as evil? I don’t think football even came into the equation. It was that this person would have to go to his spouse and say he lost his job for reporting the sexual abuse of a Penn State head coach, and she would go… YOU DID WHAT? And then his fellow employees threw a firebomb through his window… They got fired too.
You can’t say that is culture. It is the corporate mentality. If in Bank of America, if in WSFS, if in University of Delaware, if on a farm in Sussex County. it is still the same. It takes humongous courage to go against ones boss on something that will lead to criminal charges. It is no crime that most people do not have the courage rising to that high level.
The sad thing is; that failure led to more incidents. I’m sure hero status for someone typing buttons a keyboard acclaiming they are above all worldly cares and will do what is right. But, to give up ones own children’s well being, to prevent further wrong, is indeed, heroic. But you can’t imprison someone for choosing not to be heroic.
And anon. The reason this was not investigated was not because football is so effin great. No. The reason it was not investigated was a lack of vision on those involved to see Sandusky as a predator; they saw him as a dear old friend and it colored their judgment. It is sad. They should be tried, and let the truth come out.
kavips
For child rape I would risk it. Every damn time.
Sorry: that argument cuts no ice.
To answer the rest of your question: I would risk my children starving to save someone else’s child from rape, because I don’t think they should grow up with a father who would make any other decision.
And I forgot Social Ben. 🙁 That was a good analogy you made versus the corporate culture and Penn State. Must say it gave me pause because those who purposefully tanked the economy for short term gains, never were punished. And yes, the same culture is present today.
But no one is arguing for the elimination of all hedge funds; a limit on all $trillion dollar investments, a national bank, or any system override that forces cataclysmic catastrophe on those institutions which were responsible.
However there are some calling that those “individuals” who did this get tried in court.
That is what I’m arguing for. Trying those “individuals” in court. (Although I would jump on any bandwagon of any attempt to return to Glass-Steagel.)
But it is the “individual” people who were responsible and those “individual” people will receive their time in court and have twelve jurors decide their fate. I’m just saying after reading the Freeh report, be prepared for a OJ Simpson like verdict that goes against public opinion because those in charge of mouthing off public opinion, were in possession of none of the facts.
And Cassandra. I didn’t see your response till now. There is a huge difference between arguing whether innocent people: alumni, employees, trustees, students, parents, should be punished for something they had no control over, and that of giving Penn State a pass for what went on.
That is the original argument in your title: “Should Penn State Football get the Death Penalty.”
If they do not get the Death Penalty it does in no way condone childhood predatory actions. Those who perpetuated it, still need punished, and will be I’m sure, with cash settlements going to those children who were with Sandusky as well as cash benefits going to the prevention of child abuse in general.
It is time to move on. And fix the problems instead of wallowing in forcing punishment upon those who do not deserve it. And doing so in no way minimizes the rape that happened.
You seem intent on turning the argument as well as some on this thread, into one that is whether or not Penn State should be punished. I will state for the fifth time here. The argument is not that; it is over HOW Penn State will be punished.
They need to be punished so innocent victims are not punished in the process. Those who perpetrated the crimes need to be the ones who get punished.
The SMU punishment went far beyond just punishing the people who perpetrated the crimes, they were given the death penalty for paying off athletes. There is no way the NCAA can justify giving SMU the death penalty and letting PSU go.
This is unbelievable. The same people who would toss out the entire Catholic Church… food kitchens and orphanages and low income schools and all, because some people molested children wouldn’t want Penn State to “suffer” by losing football for a couple of years for the same reason. Okay, let’s be clear that their POV is anti-Catholic or anti-religious, at its heart, and has nothing to do with the safety of children.
And a culture of people who wouldn’t sacrifice themselves to save someone else’s child isn’t worth saving. I spit on it. You talk, kavips, about the ‘punishment’ meted out to Nazi Germany. Talk, instead, about the ordinary daddies from the other damn side of the world who left their families to fight it. They fought, they suffered, and they damn well died trying to save and protect people they couldn’t even speak to. Their counterparts in Europe hid families in their basements and attics at the risk of their lives. This kind of heroism isn’t unimaginable. It’s happening all over the world, every day. It didn’t happen at Penn State. We need to know why. And we won’t know why if we spend ONE single minute or one thin dime working on the new running pattern, or congratulating the place kicker. If we do that, we’ve already answered the question.
and the answer is “football.”
Great comment, heragain.
As for this:
That is the original argument in your title: “Should Penn State Football get the Death Penalty.”
There is no argument in the title, and if that is the reason you went off on your misguided lecture tour here, I’ll ask you to go back and reread it. It is a Question.
But what that question assumes is that you know that the Death Penalty is administered by the NCAA. It is a sanction of one football program — shutting it down for a season or more– the rest of the school goes on. And for State College, that means that only one part of their industry goes on time out. A restaurant that doesn’t pass a DOH inspection is shut down until it gets fixed — notwithstanding the fact that plenty of people who had nothing to do with that problem are affected by that decision.
So it is a question. Subsequent responses have been an argument. What happened at Penn State is its own public health menace. This institution didn’t care about innocents. A solid time out from football lets this institution fix itself. And tells all of the rest of the NCAA institutions that serious preventative measures are needed now.
ita a pretty loaded question…. it doesnt say “should everyone that has been involved in PSU football for the past 30 years be fired in disgrace, the team suspended for 4 years and any profit at all go to charity?” the question is the argument.
Once, my 3rd child was bitten by a dog. A week later, the owner of the dog got my 4th child over to pet it, and he was bitten.
The first time it was the dog. I can forgive a dog.
The second time, the fault was the owner’s.
It wouldn’t be “charity” if the children had medical & mental health bills covered for EVER by Penn State, and they can melt Joey Pa’s statue down and make it into earrings to pay for it.
They owned the dog.