Delaware Marriage Equality Debate Thread
The #DEHouse is in session now! They’ll break for caucus before the debate/vote on the marriage bill. Like we did with House Bill 35, I will try to post updates from the debate on the Gay Marriage Bill (HB 75) here.
Per Amy Cherry at WDEL, the House typically goes into session at 2pm, but they are in caucus first. It’s last on the agenda so we probably won’t get to this bill until HB 75
I have this debate with my colleagues ALOT!
Personally I don’t see why they shouldn’t be allowed to get married, hey, if they want to be miserable and go through the hardships and hell and work that is a marriage let them. Now, I do understand my colleagues point of view when they say that the gov has no right to make a decision regarding marriage. However, here’s my view, MY GOD says its a sin, however my God also says he who is without sin cast the first stone. My God also says not to judge lest ye be judged by the father. I have a lot of gay friends that know I don’t agree with their lifestyle, however I DO NOT harp on them about it or belittle them about it. I propose this view, we know as ‘Christians’ that our God does not and will not recognize their ‘marriage’ so where’s the issue in letting them find their own god that will? It may be a sin but its not our place to judge them for that, we believe our God wil judge them for that, so why can’t they be happy, or miserable too? Lol
As ‘christians’ we are COMMANDED to love the sinner despite the sin. I just expect to be shown the same tolerance on proud to be married to a female day as I show them on their proud to be gay day, that’s all I ask which I don’t think is unreasonable in the least bit. Do you?
House is in session for those listening!
So far what I’ve learned is that Rep. Melanie Smith has a dog named Freedom.
GOP Rep. D. Short: This bill could lead to more marriages in the state. Rep. Smith: Wouldn’t that be a wonderful thing? #DE4M #netDE
House Minority Leader Rep. Dan Short says right away he’s not going to agree with the bill: “I think everybody knows that.” #NetDE #DE4M
“This bill is about religious freedom. It ensures no one has to recognize any marriages they don’t want to.” #DE4M #netDE #lgbt
“This bill is about equality, equal treatment under the law,” says sponsor Rep. Melanie George. #NetDE #DE4M
Rep. Smith: This bill extends the freedom to marry to all couples who are in a loving, committed relationship in Delaware. #DE4M #netDE
Short wants to know where fiscal note is on same-sex marriage bill. He wants to know how much this will cost. #NetDE #DE4M
Debate is focused on why there isn’t a fiscal note with HB 75 when there was one for civil union bill in 2011. #netDE #DE4M
Rep. Smith responds that cost is one-time technology cost fee and not about volume of marriages.
Controller General Morton responds that health insurance benefit from civil unions bill is continuing so already accounted for in terms of budget and this bill does not change that.
Hope the legislator comments remain less outlandish than a few of the public comments before the committee.
We can always count on some of the Sussex Republicans….
Attorney Rep. Short called to testify as witness is Jordan Lawrence with Alliance Defending Freedom. #netDE #DE4M
Alliance Defense Fund described as “servant ministry building an alliance to keep the door open for the spread of the Gospel… #DE4
Mr. Lawrence is describing the affect of marriage equality in Massachusetts, and how Catholic Charities got out of the adoption business because it could no longer discriminate against gays.
According to @EQDE he is not telling the truth about the MA situation.
Rep. Miro asks if states have ever had to change their marriage law after it passed. Oppo witness isn’t sure. We are: it’s never happened.
Opposition witness says Catholic Charities in MA were forced to stop adoptions. Again, this isn’t true. #DE4M
Religious charities are free to run their organizations however they chose, as long as they don’t take taxpayer money. #RI4M
Rep. Miro asks if we could’ve achieved the same level of rights with civil unions and other laws/policies? #DE4M The answer from Equality Delaware: No couple should have to jump through legal hoops to protect their families. Only marriage protects all DE families. #DE4M
Do you think there’s the possibility than even one house member still has an “open mind” going into this debate? What’s the point of all this theatre if everyone has already decided on their votes?
Rep. Miro asks about the difference between civil union and marriage for same-sex couples (HB75). #DE4M
Opposition witness says there will be no difference. Again, untrue. Only marriage protects couples when they need to most. #DE4M
#ADF lawyer now lies about the NJ Ocean Camp Grove pavilion case. #DE4M
Here’s why the claim about the Ocean Grove Pavilion is irrelevant: bit.ly/AvcQEF Nothing to do with religious liberty!! #DE4M
Citing examples in NJ and NM. Both fall under public accommodations/non-discrimination. Not marriage. #DE4M
Rep. Hudson suggests that because some non-religious businesses will serve gay people, the law should allow others to discriminate. #DE4M
This marriage bill does nothing to change that anti-gay discrimination is already illegal in Delaware. #DE4M bit.ly/12GdvGF
If a business is open to the public, it has to follow public accommodation laws. It can’t discriminate against gay people. #DE4M Faith organizations, on the other hand, can act as they wish. They will never be forced to recognize a same-sex marriage. #DE4M #netDE
Public accommodations law protecting gay people already exists in #Delaware. #MarriageEquality doesn’t change this. #ADF lies. #DE4M
#ADF lawyer says that anti-gay people and businesses will be “stripped of dignity” after #MarriageEquality. Ironic & tone-deaf.
ADF attorney pleading for sympathy for business owners who wish to discriminate against same-sex couples. Pathetic. #DE4M
Slap this stuff down! Is Delaware a state the values discrimination? That’s what Jordan Lorence is backing here. #de4m
Rep. Hudson: Won’t someone please think about the anti-gay florists? #DE4M
More talk about how HB75 “threatens” religious liberty. Really, it’s all talk. HB75 explicitly protects religious freedom. #DE4M #netDE
Repub Reps continue to ask questions of #ADF lawyer: First D. Short, then Miro, Hudson, now Dukes. #DE4M #netDE
Rep. Dukes wonders if public servants might actually be required to do their taxpayer-funded jobs after #MarriageEquality.
Dukes and #ADF lawyer think elected officials should be allowed to refuse to do their jobs where gay people are involved. #DE4M
Dukes asking about whether bill allows clerk of peace can refuse to preside over same-sex marriage for religious objections
Now questions about if clerks of the peace will be forced to recognize marriages. || Yes, because they act as agents of the state.
Solemnization of marriage is a civil function, not a religious one. There should be no exemption for public servants. #DE4M
No votes based on questions:
Short
Hudson
Dukes
Miro (maybe)
The state doesn’t permit employees to violate the law. If HB75 passes, clerks of the peace will just be held to that same standard. #DE4M
This guy is now getting ridiculous. The bill does not force private photographers to take part in taking pictures of gay marriages.
Seems like first two lines of questions ($$$ and constitutionality/protection of 1st Amendment Rights) is to give folks an “out” that they were not discriminatory but couldn’t vote for HB 75 because of these other issues.
You do not have the right to discriminate, sir. That is what you are arguing for.
#ADF: “All Americans benefit when…” we allow private non-religious businesses to discriminate against gay people. #DE4M
Lorence says it’s unclear what the First Amendment protects. He asks would black photographer want to photograph KKK wedding? #DE4M
Carson now up.
Rep. Carson suggests #MarriageEquality is anti-business, especially anti-small business. #DE4M
ADF Attorney says churches could be sued under HB75. That isn’t possible. Churches are specifically protected by this bill. #DE4M
You know, Rep. Carson, if a bigot’s beliefs are sincere, that does not make them good.
Smyk now up
Lorence says this legislation doesn’t mandate changes to public school curriculum, but highly likely, there would be changes. #DE4M
George Smith: “In NM & NJ examples, did those states have marriage?” || Lorence: They did not. #DE4M #netDE
We should note: ADF attorney cites his two main examples, in NJ & NM. But the thing is.. neither state has passed marriage. #DE4M
Rep. George Smith: “Those cases were in fact about anti-discrimination bills (like DE’s) in NM & NJ rather than marriage.” #DE4M
Thank you Rep. Smith for bringing some common sense to the discussion!
Rep. Smith: For you to suggest that clerks would lose 1st Amendment rights is misleading to my colleagues. #DE4M
Rep. Smith schools #ADF lawyer on the First Amendment. Love her. #DE4M
Rep. Smith asks how far we would let this go. Can the clerk of peace turn down couples based on their race, faith, gender? #DE4M
Sorry ADF attorney, I don’t think there’s a First Amendment right to not perform the job responsibilities one has sworn to fulfill. #DE4M
Rep. Smith debunks AFD attorney’s school argument: Local schools control curriculum in Delaware & we’re proud of that. #DE4M
One hour down…
I guess Briggs King is unaware about the immiment demise of DOMA before the Supreme Court. DOMA is going down, so your question is irrelevant.
The bigot defending ADF witness is dismissed
Rep. George Smith calls Equality Delaware President Mark Purpura as the next witness on HB75. Mentions that Purpura is a Delaware attorney, which is a dig at Lorence.
Mark: The bill being voted on today has nothing to do with DE’s public accommodation law.
Witness Mark Purpura speaks about the proposed impact on businesses. Notes public accommodations law already is in effect.
Rep. Smith: “So there is nothing new to the public accommodation law in HB75?” Mark: Nothing new
Mark: If SCOTUS strikes down #DOMA, it will leave DE’s same-sex couples in civil unions with no federal protections.
If DOMA is overturned & same-sex marriage isn’t passed in #Delaware, couples in current civil unions won’t have protections under law.
Purpura: This bill does not impact education in any way. Local control by local school boards would remain.
Smyk says his district is opposed to equality by 16 to 1. Nice to know that his constituents are bigots.
Smyk wants to know why civil unions aren’t sufficient, since federal benefits are denied to same-sex couples anyway. #DE4M
Purpura says DE has to pass marriage so same-sex couples can get benefits when (he assumes) DOMA is struck down
Purpura notes that it’s equal treatment under the law, and that civil unions don’t provide equal status or equal treatment. #DE4M
Mark: Every church will determine their own definition of marriage. This bill changes no religious practices. #DE4M #netDE
Purpura: Civil unions are an inferior status. Smyk says it’s not. Would Smyk accept a civil union instead of a marriage? #DE4M
Briggs King up
It changes one religious practice. For faith leaders who choose to marry same-sex partners, it would also allow them to then sign a state marriage license for state recognition of that marriage.
Rep. Briggs King takes exception to “loving, committed couples” comment, says some people get married for reasons other than love. #DE4M
Not sure what point she is trying to make there. I guess only only unloving and greedy couples who think marriage is a convenient means to an end should get married.
Delaware adopted Common Core standards for Math & ELA. That was a Delaware decision, not a federal decision.
Schools also must already work against bullying, promote the mental health of their students, work towards having cohesive communities in their classrooms where fellow students act respectfully towards each-other regardless of their personal beliefs.
Briggs King thinks people who are in civil unions now are going to be discriminated against now their unions are marriages. What if they wanted just be civil union-ed.
Briggs King is talking nonsense now.
Ezra, any idea on a whip count?
Shorter Rep. Briggs King: Why aren’t you people satisfied with the crumbs we’ve already given you? #DE4M
I think the issue with Rep. Ruth Briggs King’s argument is that having DPBs as another status for anyone who wants to enter it is the attached fiscal note and that if that’s attached to an equal rights bill it can potentially kill the bill.
Disappointed in Hudson and Miro. Had them on my ‘gettable’ list
Any questions from Potter or Mitchell? I’m asking b/c they have taken no public position yet.
I don’t, sorry. But I’m less worried about today and more worried about the senate.
Rep. Briggs King: Why can’t we wait until the federal government acts before we give people equality? #DE4M
How many more times is Rep. Smith going to remind us that she’s an attorney? We get it you have your law degree.
Briggs King thinks the overwhelming majority of Delawareans are against equality. Maybe her constituents in Georgetown are, but not in the rest of the state.
Rep. Smith: Beauty of bill is that we’re telling ppl you have freedom to do what you feel is right. Can marry person you love #netDE
Rep. Briggs King says we should do what the majority of our state believes? The majority of DE supports HB75: bit.ly/11BtcwA #DE4M
Rep. Miro wants to hear differences between civil unions and same-sex marriage. #DE4M
Miro says couples in civil unions get all rights/benefits of everyone else, so only thing HB75 does is recognize these marriages.
Purpura of @EQDE says HB 75 isn’t not about rights and benefits. It’s about allowing freedom to marry. #DE4M
Oh Jesus. Now the leader of the Delaware Family Policy Council is up. Nicole Theis.
Potter and Mitchell have not asked questions
Children need loving parents, not just a mother and father.
I guess Nicole has never heard of in vitro. I have many gay friends who are parents.
No questions for her, since we all know her opinion is bullshit.
Rep. Harvey Kenton (R) says he will NOT support same-sex marriage. “Marriage is between one woman, one man, and God.” #DE4M
Looks like debate is winding down here in the House. #DE4M
George Smith calls for roll call vote, but then Carson wants to speak.
Carson thinks there is no difference between civil unions and marriage and thinks marriage is only for a status symbol.
Short again brings up the fiscal note issues.
Silly, silly, Delaware Dem. In vitro is evil because it could result in frozen embryos being thrown in the trash. DFPC is against those types of fertility treatments.
D. Short thinks DOMA will be upheld, which means he has no legal understanding and did not pay attention to the arguments before the court. He also thinks gays who want to marry in DE is a very very small number, so who the fuck cares about them.
I can’t tell if anon’s comment is snark or sincere.
It’s the truth, they oppose fertility treatments that result in left over embryos.
Short yields to Pastor Dukes.
Gotcha, anon.
Dukes: Only 3%, or 24,000, of DE’s population is gay, so who the fuck cares about them.
Rep. Duke’s argument is basically this: gay people are a small portion of the DE population so there’s no reason for HB75.
Dukes says this bill is all about approval of gay marriage, and the sponsors want everyone to approve of gay marriage.
“Pastor” Rep. Dukes: “This is really about endorsement or approval. And that’s what I have a problem with.” #DE4M
“Pastor” Rep. Dukes: Marriage reduces crime, makes civilization stronger. So let’s exclude people from it! #DE4M
Atkins NO
Barbieri YES
Baumbach YES
Bennett YES
Hudson and Jacques NO
Jaques just lost the Progressive Dems vote
Potter no
Bill passes 23 yes 18 no.
Marriage Equality passes the House. Huge ovation in the gallery. Onto the Senate.
Not law yet. The Senate awaits, and it will be tougher over there.
On to the Senate!
BTW, Potter’s got some ‘splainin’ to do.
Yes, El Som, for a moment I thought the Senate had already passed this. Silly me.
The roll call went so fast that I could not keep up. Earl Jaques has a lot of explaining to do. So does Potter. Both will now lose their Progressive Dem endorsements.
Here’s the roll call:
http://legis.delaware.gov/LIS/LIS147.nsf/7712cf7cc0e9227a852568470077336f/02e8f0afe3d63a2e85257b560078b18f?OpenDocument
I am going to put a post up on this analyzing the votes in a few minutes.
OK, Andria Bennett, Rebecca Walker, Darryl Scott, and Larry Mitchell, previously undeclared, voted yes.
I’m especially disappointed in Trey Paradee. If Kent Countians like Bennett and Scott can vote yes, then why not Paradee?
Especially since his stated support of gay rights was one of the things that first attracted DL to him. Maybe we’ve been had.
This has been some great blogging, everyone — I am 2000 miles away and could follow it all.
Thank you for this! I’m home with a sick kid and this was great.
Just sent a note of disappointment to Jaques, I’m in his district. Fully willing to work against him next election, a primary challenge could be good for the 27th.
Wow, Paradee voted no? Is he becoming Kent County’s John Atkins?
I never doubted that Andria Bennett would vote “Yes” on this bill.
There were some silent ‘yeas’ in the bank. Mitchell was the only truly uncommitted to vote yes today.
The Progressive Dems will most likely pull their endorsement of Jaques based on this vote. If a Progressive in the 27th wishes to step up, there are votes to be had.
Paradee has been voting scared all session. He is the Assembly’s number 1 coward.
Delaware is now an official wreck, lousy schools and no jobs but we have homosexual marriage.
Way to go nut case Dems.
You can always LEAVE and move to…….
Ummmmmmm, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas or Arizona
I hear their schools are EXCELLENT, as is Health Care for Women, and their job markets are just SCREAMING for help, note……..hope you are not a person of color, or a female
But hey, if you are some wrinkley, old white guy, should work out perfect for ya. don’t forget to pack your white pointy hood when you go
Us Dems will be just happy here in our wrecked state without ya! Fair skies!
Is gay marriage really the litmus test for progressives? I support gay marriage myself and think it is inevitable, but I don’t see it as the Prime Directive trumping all other issues, especially issues on economic policy and social benefits. Of all the issues progressives choose to bulldog on and push over the finish line to get it done a few years sooner, this seems to be the least likely choice.
You know, there is a universal health care bill out there, and the budget is passing out tax cuts for the rich. Let’s see if Delaware progressives make those litmus tests too.
If progressives handled gay marriage the same way they handled Obamacare, they would take civil unions and say “We’ll fix it later.” And anybody who suggested a primary would be labeled a purist.
Don’t cherrypick this comment, I hope the bill passes and I made my phone calls (to Lavelle).
The one time I act like Puck, and he questions it. LOL. The irony.
The difference is I think a broad national prosperity IS the Prime Directive.
If the Delaware bill passes by one vote, I think the Dem No votes could well be seen as tactical votes to protect their seats. Obviously Dems fear losing center-right votes more than they fear losing progressive votes.
I think that is right, though, as I cited yesterday or the day before in one of the Open Threads, Dem legislators always think their districts are more conservative than they actually are.