Of all the fines levied against him, how much will Donald Trump actually pay?
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Wait. Jesus is greater than equality?
Galatians 3:26-29 ESV / 86 helpful votes
For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
Why would a church advertise their brand of religion justifies bigotry?
Over the past few years I’ve tried very hard to not be as strident and militant in my atheism. I don’t question people’s inane “revelations” anymore… at least not to their faces. I really make an effort to say, “hey, you believe whatever you wish, just don’t make me believe it too.” But this fucking madness needs to stop. It’s not real! We evolved these minds that allow us to ponder these deep thoughts and understands the universe… and know that there is so much we don’t understand… so these dipshits just give up and continue this hoax. It’s ludicrous and madness and we do not… REPEAT do not need to respect any belief anyone has. We can evaluate their reason and that’s it.
Sorry, my understanding of the Gospel is that Jesus, God – are equality. They’re hope, they’re love, they’re humility. The Kingdom of God is one of fairness of righteousness, not of cowardly, LCD bullshit plastered on the side of a cheap, stuccoed factory church on the side of 896.
Ummm…..given the world we live in now…..photoshop? My jaded eye.
Possibility, I got it from a local off twitter. Can anyone drive down 896 South of Porter Road to confirm?
No confirmation, other than Betters have been actively lobbying against the bill so it would be of absolutely no surprise that he’d have this up.
I have confirmation from several sources that it is in fact real. It was up last night and this morning.
Dorian Gray, Post of the Day.
Wanna guess whose district this church is in?
I should also say that I have driven past that electronic sign hundreds of time since it was erected a year or two ago. It always has Chuck Betters’ (the minister) name on it, only once in that time have I seen Jesus’ name on it.
You wanna tell me why it should matter?
I think the church is in Jacques Rep. District and Townsend’s Senate District.
No, it is in Jaques and BHL’s.
And it matters because there a large number of their constituents in that church. And I’d guess vocal constituents. It’s damn near mega church status at this point, having recently purchased the Red Lion church/school.
Math and Religion–now you’re really confusing the kids.
http://postimg.org/image/qea1fe1jl/
Just in case you’d like to read the discussion that ensued on Glasgow Church’s Facebook page relating to their choice of signage last evening.
Brian: Thanks for the link. I wonder who is posting as “Glasgow Church.”
Seemed to be the same person who put the sign up, judging by the way the responses were written. But the more I learn about this church and “Dr.” Betters the more I feel it could have been anyone in that church.
In any case, the sign appears to be well within current IRS rules. There is no campaign in progress so the church is not even obliquely advocating for any political campaign.
If you ask me though, all those LED outdoor signs are too damned bright and should be banned as light pollution.
Betters is having his “segregation now…segregation forever” moment. In five years they’ll have Youth Pastors getting gay married in that place.
Thanks for posting that link Brian. It makes me feel better that they are getting lambasted for this. And it makes me wonder why anyone cowers still in fear of these bigots.
ahem Jaques and Hall Long.
Oh wow… look at what Glasgow Church says in that link Brian supplied:
Granted, I’m not religious, but then again… neither is Glasgow Church.
Someone please tell him that many parents are happy to encourage their children to love and marry anyone they want to.
I find it particularly amusing that some conservatives are upset because people might get “gay married” just for the tax breaks — illustrating that no matter how upset they might act on a moral level, it really is all about the money for many of these people.
Good thing straight people never get married for money.
Someone should post this to Reddit.
there’s some real gems on that thread. Some good ol’ fashioned, moronic hate.
Although I am an atheist, I used to believe that established religious systems still had something to contribute morally that was novel and relevant to a changing world. But I grow increasingly suspicious of my belief. To the extent that established religious systems are scripturally based is the extent to which they they retard moral progress and lack relevance. On those occasions when it seems that a religious person or institution does contribute to moral progress, it invariably is the case that they do because because they’ve allowed their scriptural analyses and dogmatic values to be thoroughly rehabilitated by secular humanistic values. I am wondering what purpose established religious systems serve to the common good beyond providing false existential comforts to the cowering.
Evangelical Atheist here, spreading the good news of no god. And why not with thinly masked hatred like this? Christians, and for that matter all the rest, have always talked about love and equality but it’s nothing more than talk. To their credit some churches are not like this and welcome the LGBT community. Catholics and Evangelicals, this don’t mean you.
You have just painted Catholics and Evangelicals with one brush, I know many of both who support all LBGT rights. I find proselytizing Atheists every bit annoying as proselytizing Christians. I don’t shove my beliefs down your throat and I expect the same.
Hey, Tom, every time the government you support and don’t protest for doing the following, you shove religion down my throat: making me use money with In God We Trust on it, pressuring my kid to say “under God” when reciting the pledge of allegiance, making me watch a President swear to defend the constitution while placing his hand on the Bible and end his oath with So help me God, every time I have to pay a higher tax bill to cover for the lost revenue from tax exempt churches, and so on. You don’t like it that atheists have finally grown sick of the hegemony of theological mumbo jumbo? Too bad. It will only get worse for you.
Dana
I don’t support “In God We Trust” I don”t say “under God” In fact I think the whole Pledge is BS. It puts the flag ahead of our country and constitution. I don’t care what the president swears on and atheists are free to form their own non-profits. What makes you think I am religious? I just want to live my life in peace. Even if or especially if you agree with me I don’t need a lecture on what to believe.
Tom, if you reread my comment, you’ll notice I didn’t say you were religious (I purposely didn’t). I said your failure to speak up, to care (as evidenced by your don’t bother me with your protestations atheists business), and to complain when atheists speak up about these things, have the effect of shoving religion down our throats. Your not caring, your complaint because I protest about these things, compels me to be bothered by religious noise. You want everyone to shut up? Then get the religious zealots to shut up first.
The hits keep on coming.
https://www.facebook.com/GlasgowChurch/posts/10152749699015562?comment_id=39512632&offset=0&total_comments=23¬if_t=feed_comment_reply
Tom McKenney-
You have just painted Catholics and Evangelicals with one brush, I know many of both who support all LBGT rights. I find proselytizing Atheists every bit annoying as proselytizing Christians. I don’t shove my beliefs down your throat and I expect the same.
I agree with the last sentence of your comment.
I also agree w/ bamboozer re: Catholics & Evangelicals as a group.
Both the RCC and every single “evangelical” denomination (or non-denominational evangelical congregation) condemns same sex marriage. Individual members of those congregations may be ok w/ it, but as a whole, they are vehemently against it.
“making me watch a President swear to defend the constitution while placing his hand on the Bible and end his oath with So help me God,”
Just for information, the following is the oath of office
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
The words “So help me God” and the use of bibles is not required and was not done by such notables as T Roosevelt and J Adams who did not use a bible and Roosevelt, who said “And thus I swear” and others who affirmed or swore instead of “So help me God”
What you see is the latitude (liberty) taken by Presidents in both the prefatory and succeeding phrases surrounding the actual oath.
If someone asks for help from their God for the office they now hold, I have no objection, even if that god was Shiva or whoever.
Roland… Catholics as a group support same sex marriage at a higher rate than the rest of the population. They tend to buy into the social justice aspect more than orders from a bunch of miserable old men. The Evangelical population seem to experiencing a divide between older members who are obsessed with other peoples sex and younger members who are more concerned with social issues. I guess we will see if this holds in the long term.
All proselytizers seem to have the same victim mentality they are speaking up because society doesn’t realize that they have the answers. So they feel oppressed because everyone doesn’t buy into the wisdom of their ways.
Dana what is a child’s game? You shut up, no you shut up first. There is a difference between expressing your beliefs in a clear argument which is a great thing and saying this is how it is just believe it.
Thanks for the link, Brian.
When I read what the pastor writes I cringe. I’m an agnostic, and like Dorian Gray (comment above) I’ve always tried to be a “whatever floats your boat” sort of person when it comes to people’s religious beliefs – but, like Dorian, I’m getting really tired of dealing with this offensive and judgmental language. I’m also tired of people hiding behind their god to justify their bigotry. “Please respect our views,” they say, playing the victim, while sitting in judgement of others and inserting themselves into politics. Yeah, it’s time to start taxing them.
Here’s Pastor Betters (and boy, does his name fit his views):
Professed homosexual?
Professed as in:
(of a quality, feeling, or belief) Claimed or asserted openly but often falsely.
(of a person) Self-acknowledged or openly declared to be.
It’s obvious Pastor Betters believes homosexuality is a choice, the Glasgow Church Facebook comment from yesterday makes that crystal clear.
Children who would have otherwise been straight, will now see the GLBTQ lifestyle as viable. I suppose it will be OK with the commenters on this list if/when a couple of their children/grandchildren/greatgrandchildren willy/nilly choose to be married gay simply because it is a menu option given to them by the culture?
And there you have it. Being gay is a menu option.
Betters claims to have gay parishioners, but he’s obviously never really listened to them. If he had he would have never tossed in the word “professed” or let his FB page describe homosexuality as a menu option – which is beyond offensive. It’s dismissive. Anyone who has gay family/friends knows how hard it was for them to come out, to tell their family and friends. We know that being gay isn’t a simple menu option and we know the struggle that many of our gay friends/family had to endure simply to be who they are. We know, but Pastor Betters “professes” homosexuality to be a menu option.
I’d also point out that none of the four gospels mentions homosexuality. No mention of abortion either, yet today’s religions are obsessed with these issues. Guess following Jesus’ main points of feeding/taking care of the poor and defending the weak isn’t that important. Because, if following Jesus’ main message was really important these “men of god” wouldn’t have time to keep peeping into people’s bedrooms.
I’m sorry. Did that offend you? Join the club.
Catholics as a group are just like the rest of Americans – liberal but with conservative leadership.
If you start taxing churches, then I want hospitals taxed too. I sure as heck have seen more come out of Catholic Social Services, Lutheran Housing for Aged, Jewish Family Services, LDS World Relief, Episcopal Agencies, then I have ever seen out of Christiana Care, Kaiser-Parmente etc. A wild hair here and there, does not negate the overall benefit to the world these agencies are able to organize and provide. I’m not willing to pick up the slack these agencies would have to cut back if losing tax status. Are you? Oh let them play Lite Brite–it keeps the conversation going, and it’s what makes America great. Political statement perhaps–but any different from crosses lined up on a Catholic churchyard, or Episcopal ministry and outreach/care to illegal, undocumented workers?
I’d also point out that none of the four gospels mentions homosexuality. No mention of abortion either, yet today’s religions are obsessed with these issues.
I call the modern Christian right “Old Testament Christians.”
Joanne, I believe those parts of a church’s budget that are given to charitable exercises (the ones that are not covert exercises in proselytizing people) should be tax exempt. But why should I pick up the tax slack for church’s to spread ideas that I think with good reason are foolish and at times are arguably harmful and dangerous?
Dave, I realize that swearing on the Bible and saying “So help me God” are optional at inaugurations. I also realize that my taxes are picking up the tap for such superstitious displays.
Well, because first off–the money has already been taxed. They are receiving and operating off of donations that were already taxed by our government. The full agenda you don’t have to believe. Often, donations are designated to “earthquake relief”, or “measles outbreak”, “addiction counseling”. I’m just taking the world view here, and not some xenophobic reason for shutting down a much greater purpose.
Handle local billboards, locally. Fill their churches!!!!!
Joanne – isn’t a donation to a church tax-deductible, meaning that it ISN’T taxed?
You are donating w/ your money you earned, that WAS taxed. IF you get/take a deduction it is NOT dollar for dollar against your earnings.
@Puck Old Testament Christians that don’t keep kosher. I think it’s more of a Choose Your Own Adventure type of deal, which is apt on the large scale as well. Pure children’s fiction.
Sort of like daycare Geek–you may have spent 6k for daycare, but you get a much less credit. Charity is higher, but capped, not a credit, but definitely not going out untaxable.
The tax exempt thing has another angle. If I contribute to a candidate’s ‘committee to elect’ that contribution is not tax deductable. But if I contribute to a church it is tax deductible. Even if that tax-exempt church uses the money to fund an issues campaign in support of a candidate. What a racket.
“That money was already taxed” applies to just about any money you can point to. We don’t tax money, we tax transactions. If you have money invested in something, it isn’t taxed. It’s only taxed when you sell the investment or collect dividends.
Look at it this way: Everything you buy is bought with money that was left after taxes were deducted — in other words, it was already taxed. So under the “already taxed” guideline, no business owner should ever have to pay any taxes, because people purchased that stuff with money that was already taxed.
In short, the statement is no justification for churches paying no taxes.
If I’m not mistaken, if you donate $6K to a church, that 6K comes off of your taxable income. You then calculate your taxes owed based on the taxable income.
In other words, it is not taxed.
Right. And the racket includes getting local municipal services without supporting the cost of those services. Trash collection, traffic control (for big events) and so on (especially in cities like Wilmington where a large percentage of the property is tax exempt) is financed by people who do pay taxes.
Exactly, auntie dem. I’m sorry, but religious institutions are highly divisive – most thriving on an us (heaven bound because WE are right) vs them (burning in hell).
The Catholic Church makes a big stink about telling pro-choice politicians not to take communion, but doesn’t make the same “request” of its pro-death penalty politicians. This is a political statement. It is deliberately inconsistent to serve a political agenda. And if they, not just the Catholics, want to play this game, then tax them. If they quit this tactic, then let them be. They can’t have it both ways.
“but doesn’t make the same “request” of its pro-death penalty politicians. This is a political statement”
Morally yes, but technically it is a doctrinal statement. There are papal documents establishing theologically that abortion is different from all other issues. Politicians may vote their conscience on any issue other than abortion, where they must vote Church teaching. Note this applies to politicians, not voters. These documents represent the youthful work of Cardinal Ratzinger, by the way.
Pols like Joe Biden have gotten by because local bishops look the other way, and Rome hasn’t dared crack down.
This has led to the present situation where Catholics are encouraged to support politicians like Bush with all kinds of policies promoting death, deprivation, and injustice, as long as they are opposed to abortion. Fortunately most Catholics don’t listen.
I guess the measles vaccinations, orphanages, water purifications, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, human trafficking intervention, drug/alcohol counseling, adoption services, elder care living options, and a host of other overlooked, underfunded, underbelly human condition situations, kinda dims my outrage over an inconsequential, insignificant, feet of clay, current politician being denied communion as a statement here in our privileged, entitled US of A.. — oh and someone playing w/ pixls on their new marquee. Use it to educate and eradicate—not dismantle an entire survival chain for many.
And cass–trash and traffic control? Really? Our church has paid for garbage pick-up, and I know troopers are paid for dance duties or whatever. I’m not being snarky–is it different in the City of Wilmington? Is your trash a municipal pick-up over a private contractor?
“but religious institutions are highly divisive”
That is certainly true. There are many religions because there are many belief systems and differences in beliefs are the roots of divisiveness.
Still, religious beliefs are but one source of divisiveness. Political, personal, cultural, ethnic, and regional beliefs are all sources of that which divides people.
Difficulty in a nation such as ours is the variety of experiences which shaped our beliefs is exacerbated because we are a melting pot and immigrants everywhere both shaped the nation and created those divisions. The challenge is always to find the common ground and of course we never spend enough time trying to do that because as humans we are driven to belong to that which is like us, which is one reason why we self segregate into political parties, religions, clubs, etc. where we find common interest and feel more comfortable.
Religion is but one manifestation of that need. Maybe the worse one, but still not the only one.
I’m not being snarky–is it different in the City of Wilmington?
It is. We do have municipal pickup. It isn’t clear to anyone whether these entities need to pay for their own trash pickup and no one pushes it.
I guess the measles vaccinations, orphanages, water purifications, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, human trafficking intervention, drug/alcohol counseling, adoption services, elder care living options, and a host of other overlooked, underfunded, underbelly human condition situations, kinda dims my outrage over an inconsequential, insignificant, feet of clay, current politician being denied communion as a statement here in our privileged, entitled US of A.
No one forces a church to perform charity work. Presumably they do this because they believe they need to be in service to their communities. It is very good work, in the main, but don’t think that this work gives them carte blanche to use their tax-exempt status to do political work. Especially since an avoidance of the political work is meant to be the reason why they are tax exempt in the first place.
Denying a politician who is representing his constituents instead of his own church’s views communion is inherently political. And since these priests will withhold communion over abortion but NOT the death penalty (which certainly makes them hypocrites in their own culture of life philosophy)it is pretty darned clear that they are using the withholding of sacraments to punish politicians for privileging their constituents. Whatever good these churches may do doesn’t excuse or justify their bad behavior.
Ah… but they aren’t really punishing the politicians by threatening to withhold communion – they are loudly creating the headline, which is political.
Using the symbol of Christ’s suffering for all mankind as a cheap symbol in a political debate really demonstrates the contempt they have for the sacred redemptive work of Christ.
It’s awesome that people can find religions to make them comfortable with their prejudice and bigotry.
FOUL. Pandora, you are far more insightful and contemplative to go w/ a trite crotch shot. But it’s your blog, and I’m sure we commentors wear you down, and I love you just as much.
But, in response to your 11:56, and not to you personally–it is like a parent who has a child bringing home a stellar report card, w/ a B in social studies. All the parent can focus on is the “B”–forget the Calculus, Chinese, Orchestra, CAD, Economics, and Brit Lit,—they got a “B” in Social Studies. Are you that parent? Or are you–this looks good to great—anything I can help with or we/you need to be doing to improve this one? That’s where I see churches in some of this–
Poor and Needy Work A
Addictions Counseling A
Shut-In Outreach A
World Hunger A
Water Sanitization A
Immunizations A
Health Care A
Marginalized Population
Outreach A
Character Building A
Adoption Assistance A
Child Protection A
Bereavement A
Political Neutrality B Do you see my point? It’s not carte blanche.
I love you too, Joanne, but many of those good deeds you list come with religious strings attached. Many are run like a time-share offer – we’ll give you this, but you’ll have to listen to this.
Now, now , now pandora, gays, lesbians, civil union couples donate to churches. They seem to see a greater good and know churches aren’t perfect. Purity tests not required. Hey, before designated donating was used, United Way just collected the money then gave to whatever they decided was worthy on their approved list. Some of those charities weren’t some places I’d want my dollars to go.
Our church at least yearly, from the pulpit makes a statement issued from church headquarters in regards to political neutrality. It is made very clear, issues and politics are aside from worship, but encourage all to vote as they feel compelled. It is also made clear as to not jeopardize our country affords us w/ freedom of religion, and the tax exempt status given. It’s pretty serious our way. I’ve never seen a button/sticker on a man. But, I have seen women coyly place their button/sticker to their totebag/pocketbook.
And Pandora, I can assure you–if you have ever been involved in mass distribution of vaccines, food, blankets, water–ain’t no one sitting around trading Jesus stories. There’s no bartering for souls. Care given done. Anything further is built off a relationship with a community, tribe, people, person. Genuinely cultivated through trust, caring and dependability.
Freedom of religion does not imply freedom from taxation. They are separate issues.
Wasn’t trying to marry/civil union the two Geezer. 🙂 Sorry, if my poor sentence structure directed you to that line of thinking.
Gays, lesbians, civil union couples usually donate to churches that aren’t actively working against them. Usually.
The Salvation Army has been pretty notorious for making some of its clients submit to proselytizing and even naming religion/pastors before providing them with services that the government pays them to provide. There have been a few lawsuits and I think New York or New Jersey came to a settlement in one. There are certainly soup kitchens and shelters run by a church or faith group that run the gamut from expecting that you’ll sit through a sermon or bible reading in return for that meal to those that have opportunities for worship or spiritual engagement available with no quid pro quo. While I don’t doubt that there are organizations who provide a social service because they’ve chosen that mission, there are some that will insist that you engage with their message in return.