Who Were Our Founding Fathers?
E.J. Dionne has a column about what nonsense the Teapublicans will bring to the House of Representative’s in the 112th Congress. The column is interesting to read, but it’s this quote from historian Gordon Wood that gives one pause:
. . . we “can recognize the extraordinary character of the Founding Fathers while also knowing that those 18th-century political leaders were not outside history. . . . They were as enmeshed in historical circumstances as we are, they had no special divine insight into politics, and their thinking was certainly not free of passion, ignorance, and foolishness.”
Tags: Teapublicans, US Constitution
They were sanctimonious fringe-left purists who refused to compromise with the King, and didn’t allow any Tory representation in their Congress. Now we are wiser and we know change must be incremental over decades or longer, with many defeats and reversals along the way. Those guys just didn’t get it.
Gods, men? You have been duped. They were Centaurs. Notice how you never see a full body photo of Ben Franklin?
Jason: Take a look at the back of your $2 bill.
Anon: They might have been many things, but “fringe-left” was not among them. Ours was not a revolution of the people; it was a revolution of the bourgeousie. And they sought compromise for many, many years before Lexington and Concord — Franklin spent most of 18 years in London pressing the American case before concluding compromise was fruitless. That leaves you, oh, 16 years to go.
Your forerunners were not the American revolutionaries but the Jacobins.
They might have been many things, but “fringe-left” was not among them.
Thank you for seeing my point.
That leaves you, oh, 16 years to go.
Sorry – Dem complicity in trickle-down began in 1980 and continues to this day.
Franklin spent most of 18 years in London pressing the American case before concluding compromise was fruitless
Have we learned nothing since then?
Geezer is correct. With few exceptions, the founders were in large part elitists.
The veneration and mythologizing of the founders is one of the most pernicious and regressive tendencies in the American political system.
I’m sorry — you misunderstood my point. They weren’t on the “left” at all, at least not as you understand it.
“Dem complicity in trickle-down began in 1980 and continues to this day.”
Now I’m confused about who you see yourself as in this clumsy metaphor.
“Have we learned nothing since then?”
Yes, we have learned that people like you, who want to press for revolution rather than negotiation, aren’t capable of binding up the wounds you open.
Thank you for seeing my point.
You don’t have much of a point. The Founding Fathers took matters into their own hands to get the changes they wanted. Changes that didn’t apply to everyone living here at the time, but that’s a nit, I guess. They certainly didn’t rely on bitching and complaining among themselves to get what they wanted.
To further Dana’s point, the Founders did not hold one agreed-upon political viewpoint, either. Jefferson, Madison and Adams all had different attitudes toward the Constitution they helped produce.
No, you misunderstood my point. The Founders weren’t fringe left, and neither are Democrats who support the Obama 2008 platform. See?
revolution rather than negotiation
What – the 2008 election campaign wasn’t enough negotiation for you? Did we do it wrong or something? You want more?
Since when did keeping the promises you were democratically elected on constitute “revolution?”
Here we go. Any carrots at the bottom of that rabbit hole? Gee, it only took 90 minutes for us to change the conversation to President Obama. You’re slipping, anon.
It is perfectly reasonable to look at the Founding Fathers and imagine how we might or might not fit their mold today. That is what the Tea Party does (even if they get it wrong). And that is the topic of this post.
Debating the founding fathers is a pointless journey through the looking glass. And at the end of the rabbit hole you will find the idiots who believe that most bills, laws, and ammendments violate the Constitution.
Since they can only speak and not hear, read but not learn, it is the ultimate exercise in searching for the king of the idiots so you can strangle him or her to death with their own white hood.
“No, you misunderstood my point. The Founders weren’t fringe left, and neither are Democrats who support the Obama 2008 platform. See?”
Citing the Founders as forerunners is a cheap attempt to borrow their glory. As I noted, most weren’t leftists at all.
I understand your rejection of the “fringe” label. I don’t question your positions; I question your strategy for achieving their adoption by Congress.
“And at the end of the rabbit hole you will find the idiots who believe that most bills, laws, and ammendments violate the Constitution.”
Like justice Scalia. For the love of SkyDad, never ever ever, ever, elect a Republican President again. Have we learned nothing?
For the love of SkyDad, never ever ever, ever, elect a Republican President again.
You are still fighting the last war. Now it is not enough to avoid Republican presidents – now we have to vet the Democrats too to try to make sure they won’t support Republican policies.
I don’t question your positions; I question your strategy for achieving their adoption by Congress.
Oh there were lots of strategies available. Name one that was tried. (hint: use the START effort as a baseline for what was possible).
They certainly didn’t rely on bitching and complaining among themselves to get what they wanted.
Does it make it feel better to give the other guy what he wanted?
You are right though, I am still in the anger stage. I am like one of those spouses whose partner cheated on them but still has to live in the same house with them for a while. I may forgive them and I may not, depending on future behavior. In the meantime it colors every conversation.
I guess it will be a while longer before I catch up to all you folks in the bargaining stage.
Of course, if you didn’t actually experience a loss (i.e., if you still believe you have secure income and health care), maybe you can’t understand why some people are going through any of the stages at all.
Try acceptance stage, genius. I put bargaining in my rear view 8 months ago.
Actually, if you didn’t experience a loss, it may be because you never joined your fellow progressives’ collective delusion on the *progressive savior* thing in the first place.
The only grieving that I do is that apparently the people who are supposed to be on my team aren’t even in this for the long haul.
I”m not expecting progressive – just regular Democrat would be fine. But the team I came on the field with walked over to the opponent’s bench mid-game.
In which case, you made the mistake of not knowing who you joined up with. That is the thing to mourn, which is my point. You can’t have read any of Obama’s books and be overly surprised at this outcome.
No one walked over to the opponent’s bench. We played on the field we found ourselves.
Am I completely happy? Hell, no! But I’m not devastated by what’s going on, and that’s the disconnect. Disappointment vs despair. I can deal with (and discuss) disappointment, but I’m not qualified to handle despair.
Was HCR, Wall St. reform, tax package, etc. flawed? Yes. Could they have been better? Yes. Are they the worst things ever and must be destroyed? Um… No.
The last point is where we part ways.
The reality of our founding fathers- Rich elite slave holders more concerned with keeping the money they already had and having the freedom to make more.
Fact #1 The virginians had already claimed the land in the Ohio valley but the King refused to send troops to protect the new settlements.
Fact #2 The King had strickly forbidden any manufacturing to be done in the colonies, Franklin was invited to the north of england by his friend and fellow scientist James Watt, to see first hand the beginnings of the industrial revolution and Franklin saw the commercial value in manufacturing and exporting, that the Crown did not want to share With the colonies. Franklin was the most well known person in the colonies and many loyalists where waiting for his go ahead before they, themselves revolted.
Fact# 3 The port of boston had been sealed shut by the king a the New Englanders could not make a living from the sea, the King wanted monetary restitution for the tea party of 1771.
So it was not really about unfair taxes at all, Franklin had had the stamp act repealed by the king in 1774, it was a free market unfettered capitalism revolution, with the bill of rights a bone thrown to the commoners so they would fight the war.
shoe, I do not disagree with you, but your list is a bit short and your definition should be expanded.
Most of your facts are unknown to the average person. Boston is actually very interesting because the British actions were in the large part a reaction to being terrorized by the Sons of Liberty.
And the justifications for the Revolution had nothing to do with the average American. The rich people paid the taxes, not the poor people.
The only real benefit was to the slaves who had a chance to fight for their freedom. (well I don’t say a choice. )
Most people do not realize it was a real rich man’s war; rich people sent slaves to do the fighting. I wish that would get more coverage in the history books. We owe the winning the Revolution to slaves as much as we do anyone else at the time.
There is newer biography of Washington that came out earlier this year, it is a good read and covers some political stuff I have not read before.
Paratrooper 18 yes, I,m very sure I left out some facts, I actually could have typed all night and laid to rest many of the myths and falsehoods that americans had planted in their creniums in high school and even college level history classes, but if you put out too much at once, you tend to lose people, if they just fact check the three items I presented here than they would start down the road to real wisdom about 1776.
A real great read that everyone would enjoy and gain a lot of insite from is Ben Franklin by Walter Isaccson, it,s well written and very up to date and informative.
One question I ask people when they talk freedom and liberty as the primary reasons, is why do Canadians seem to enjoy the same freedom and liberty we do, the key is they are no where near as wealthy asa we are as a nation because their station was a banana republic type , raw material export only economy, now that has changed, but you get the point, our revolution produced more wealthy elites and a vibrant and strong middle class, but liberty and freedom as an effect has been way oversold to the american public.
Our middle class is now being destroyed as global capitalism has turned into predatory capitalism, but that,s for another thread, more on that later.
Shoe, sorry I was not being critical. I will check the Ben Franklin book. Personally I am not a fan of Franklin, though he was an interesting person. I blame him for creating the bias press.
Concerning Canada, most people do not realize that Canada is number 2 in the world for oil reserves. Saudi Arabia is number one.
History is my hobby, but math and economics is how I spend my time. ( I am a disabled shut-in so I do little else ).
There are few economic facts that people have not completely grasped or considered. This past year US corporate profits were at record highs and companies are sitting on tons of cash. Yet we have massive numbers of unemployed (not the adjusted and massaged numbers the government reports, but in real numbers. ). And we also have very low inflation. Both illustrate what you are saying, but the explanation is for another thread.
My focus right now is on the economics of health care. Which we should scrap the reform and start over. We need the government to do a takeover, totally and completely. First a government takeover of any hospital that accepts government insurance. And then tell doctors they have to choose, they cannot accept private insurance if they accept government insurance. Game over.
Our current system is so screwed and costly, people do not realize how much it will benefit our economy to scrap our system. A system that subsidizes private insurance company profits. And allows doctors and insurance companies to cherry pick who they will cover and which patients ( insurance cards ) they will treat.
Competition does not work in medicine. What incentive is there for a doctor and hospital to give up revenue and not do endless tests and worthless procedures.
dam.. on m soapbox.
Paratrooper18; my favorite book on health care is “money driven medicine BY Maggie Mahar, an in depth history of how we got in this mess and how we need single payer to get out of it, anything short of that will not stop the hyper inflation that raises prices double didgets every year, the problem is our population is compleatly ignorent of all the details of our present system, it worked fine as long as employers paid for it a 70% of the population got free or reduced rate coverage at work, but it cannot work now, the average wage earner would have to spend half his income to have even minimal coverage.
As for Franklin, he is not the liberal most people believe him to be, Madison wanted all newspapers and political ads to be delivered absolutely free and Franklin nixed that idea, our system would not be as corrupt if the government paid for political ads. But I thank Ben everyday for our free library system, that was his idea and it,s the best in the world. He did own two slaves by the way, Aunt Jememy and Mister Bob, he freed them when he became an abolutionist , but mister Bob could not make it a came back, Ben tried to put an anti-slavery admendment in the constitution but got voted down and widely hated for trying.
shoe, Now you have piqued my interest with Franklin.
It is sad to watch the fox propaganda machine working full time against health care, now that it is going to be voted on again.
The opinions they assert are factually wrong and do not even rise to the level of distortions. They are outright lies.
The anti reform side has done a great job using the FUD principle. Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
My favorite is them calling it: Job Killer. The premise is that companies are not hiring because of the health care reform. Study after study has proven that wrong. If you watch the business channels, all of them, they have been pressing any CEO they interview to comment and they even say that is not the reason, it is the economy stupid.
But I see they keep pushing this as race and class warfare. That the uninsured are that way because they are too lazy to work and are drug addicts who are on welfare.
They equate employment with being insured. If only that were the fact of it. There is a very misleading statistic put out by the health insurance industry, that over 90% of companies with over 100 employees have health insurance plans.
That might be true, but it does not mean they pay for it or even offer it to all their employees.
I totally agree it is because people do not understand our system. It is only when you have chronic health issues does it quickly become obvious that our system is terrible.
Though people should sense there is a serious problem when the doctors office’s won’t tell you if they will see you as a new patient unless they know which insurance plan you have. Having insurance does not equal access to care. That is the other flaw with the anti reform group.
I call our health care system, the beef and beer system, if you have an illness in your family your local fire hall must throw you a beef and beer to pay for it, how pathetic that the United States of America, should be the only nation in the industrialized world where only the rich can afford decent health care.
The propaganda campaign works on a lack of intelligent wisdom about the complicated health care system, only a concentrated effort to change that into useful knowledge can save the day.
Look at our organ transplant system. An old drunk like Mickey Mantle gets multiple transplants, yet there are probably thousands of poor kids who will never get one.
And it is because you have to prove ability to pay before they will even put you on the list.
Shoe it would almost be amusing, if it were not absolutely the reality of it. We pay the most, yet our system is outperformed by communist countries.
I am get all of my care from the VA. It is a small irritation that I have to go to Wilmington to see my specialists. But the level of professionalism and care is superior to our private system.
And the VA knows there shit. They deal with patients who have chronic medical issues, and they know what treatments actually work. My example is that every private doctor would push for me to get surgery. I had a meeting with a few specialists at the VA and they highly recommended against surgery. Because there risk that it would make my conditin worst was higher than imporoving my condition.
Our private system pushes people to get the operation, because it makes them money, and patients usually end up needed operations in the future.
When I see a specialist at the VA, I get either 30 or 60 mins of direct one on one with the doctor. ( I know they are heritics ). They should lose their medical licenses.
I,m a Viet Vet so I,m very well versed in the difference between the VA and private health care, for profit health care evolved by accident, Henry Kaiser started building liberty ships, but being late to the game needed workers who where already building tanks and planes for the war, a wage freeze made it impossible to attract workers with higher pay, so he offered health care insurance, and free day care for rosie the riviter , this practice of employee provided health care continued for decades but it was an unsustainable program, as free market companies found ways to avoid paying for health care their ULC,s dropped,lower unit labor costs made companies more profitable leaving workers with-out coverage meant hyper-inflation in costs, we already pay twice as much for health care as the rest of the world. and that Will get worse until we adopt single payer.
I am glad the VA turned around. Polar opposite from 15 years ago.
Republicans have a history of trying to defund the VA, under Clinton the opposite happened and it,s an amazing turn around, now that the repubs are back in power watch for them to go after the VA yet again, under republicans the cost of living goes up, the chance of staying alive goes down. That,s just historical fact. They are hypocrits and say they support the troops, but there voting record says otherwise
shoe, i have been having that debate with the right and the 9/12 traitors for a while. And they attack the shit out of me.
I have alot of issue with the Rep party in DE, and most of the veterans organizations. Everyone is under some impression that the veterans organizations are the goto people to support the state’s veterans, and they are not.
And these fire and rescue companies with their “Support our troops” signs. I am stuck with a bill from an ambulance company because they don’t accept assignment from ChampVA. So support our troops but forget disabled vets and their families. At least their sign is literally correct, since it does not say support troops and vets.
My service time has made a lifetime progressive out of me for sure, you come grips with the reality of how non-progressive people are really just looking out for their own selfish interests and not the welfare of society as a whole, it,s sad to see how lately progressives are losing every battle to the right wing noise machine, but we have lost focus on what progressives need to do to win, and that,s have the depth of knowledge on subjects like health care and predatory capitalism to counter the right wing spin they put on every issue, the internet is not helping, people are becoming scatter-brained and uninformed, gathering a little wisdom about a lot but not enough wisdom about anything to counter the right wing think tanks and there well financed PR campaigns
We need to form study groups away from the internet and do in-depth research about important topics that are vital to our nations welfare, If a study group interest you or anyone else reading this let me know.
shoe I am interested, actually very interested. The problem is fox entertainment and the constant barrage of editorial nonsense. Health care is being introduced, so you will hear death panel and job killer 20 times per hour.
And then you look at the 9/12 wingnuts who blindly follow that message, even though most of them in Sussex county desperately need the reform.
Like I said I am a numbers person, so I do not buy into alot of behavioral science. Not that I question it either way, I just live on empirical data that speaks for itself. But recently I have been reading a few books on Behaviorial finance. Specifically dealing with irrational behavior. interesting reading.
The original topic subject was the founding fathers,having read biographical accounts of virtually all of them, they had one common denominator among them, they where all devoted to aristotle,s “Eudaimonia” or secret to success, that most importantly stress the lifelong search for intelligent wisdom, they all agreed that democracy would crumble unless the general population pursued wisdom on their own, the “general Knowledge” that most people accept is almost always wrong, having been put out by people with personall agendas that do not cater to the welfare of the general population, in other words, propaganda. You see that first hand in the health care debate, but it applies to all things great and small in the body politic, I know nothing about anything until I personally research it at the library, and then after a while all the bits and pieces of the puzzle fit and I find Real knowledge.
Human behavior is such, that short cuts and the easy way are much more popular paths to wisdom, but they are always dead ends, especially in this age of corporate controlled main stream media, the entire population has been persuaded to vote against their best interests in large numbers.
Some feel the internet is a path to wisdom, but personally after 10 years on line it,s value is minimal, once I have put the puzzle together I can refer people to helpful sites, but to get the whole story is just not possible, it,s impossible to sit on the internet and stay on one topic long enough to gain real wisdom, and because of all the jumping from topic to topic I find I retain next to nothing, but give me a 3 to 4 hundred page book on a specific topic, like free trade and that information stays with me forever, and my fear is that progressives who mean well are losing there comprehension abilities on the web, and have stopped reading in depth on critical topics.
Gordon Wood has well argued against the thesis that the American Revolution was a conservative one:
http://www.enotes.com/radicalism-american-revolution-salem/radicalism-american-revolution
http://www.tnr.com//article/books-and-arts/magazine/79740/great-american-argument-ratification
I don’t care if the Founding Fathers were liberal or conservative – the point is, they didn’t win by meeting the King half-way.
The were extremists.
They were purists – “Give me Liberty or give me Death!”
And I am sure the royalists thought them annoyingly sanctimonious, with all their talk of God-given rights.
And I am interested in the idea that they were elitists and it was a “revolution of the bourgeousie.” Because that is exactly the sector we need to wake up now.
Shoe is one of Delaware’s greatest historians. Take what he says to the bank.
John M: Wood’s arguments are persuasive, but you’ll note that he’s talking about the totality of the Revolution, not the group of demigods the Republicans worship.
Shoe, I have not read Aristotle in a long time. I have to wonder that the teachings of Aristotle were part of any students academic pursuits of the time.
Aristotle,s “golden Mean is most important, Plato [his mentor] taught good is always good and bad is always bad, Aristotle said no, even virtues like courage can turn bad when they stray from the “Golden Mean” Golfers out there will understand the “Sweet Spot”, For example too little courage leads to enslavement, too much courage leads to recklessness, both errors turn a virtue into a vice, the question today is “has free market capitalism turned from a virtue to a vice’ In many ways it has.
In answer to those who wonder if our founding fathers liberal or conservative, the answer is they where both, Little Jimmie Madison led the liberal faction, and Hamilton and the old grouch John Adams led the conservative cause, Franklin, the ultimate tie breaker, was the centrist that often worked out a compromise between the two factions, that,s if and when he could stay awake, nearing 80 years old, he often dozed during the convention, but his wisdom was valued by both sides.
One important note in honor of Judge Scalia, Madison.s liberalism was due to the influence of Dolly, The Hottest Widow in Philadelphia, little Jimmy meet and courted her during the convention and she had a real influence on softning the constitution and making it more friendly towards the common man, just as Francis Perkins was responsible for social security and unemployment insurance during the “New deal” and Eleanor had her back, we owe a lot to these American ladies, with-out them we would live in a much harsher world
Republicans have figured out how to corrupt the Golden Mean by constructing new territory ever further rightward. They are aided in this by feckless and unprincipled Democrats. As long as there are centrists and pragmatists who keep insisting on meeting them halfway to the new outposts, their strategy will be successful in moving society continuously to the right.
You are spot on anon, keep moving the goal posts so the other side cannot score is exactly what they have been doing.
Bachman is calling for destruction of the banking bill, a return to lassiz faire capitalism is the real goal of the corporate controlled tea party. We are on the edge of darkness, and there is little we can do to keep the lights on.
It takes a remarkably weak character to watch the goal line move, and then conclude that the place you had been standing all this time is now on the unacceptable fringe.
As money moves upward and society moves rightward each year – when will it stop being “pragmatic” to compromise with the rightists?
Everyone pick up your cell phone, some of the rare minerals inside it are being mined by 8 year old slave children in Africa, predatory Capitalism is out of it,s cage and looking to destroy us all.
Shoe, The magnet story has been going around for a week or so. It is wall street trying to suck retail investors into pushing up the stocks so they can dump. And china actually holds the world supply hostage on the magnets. There are two types, and china holds the world suppply in the one type.
I am heading into medication land, but I do have a few points on the globalization i will make later
The profit motive reigns and now and the gloves are off.
I love history because it always repeats itself, many historians believe that the Kings ban on manufacturing was a key reason for Franklin,s call for a Revolution, and Dr. Franklins opinion was highly valued in the colonies, now 230 years later manufacturing in the colonies has been banned once more, this time it,s too protect profits again, American workers, because of their high priced standard of living just require too high a price in pay and benefits, the long term results will be the total destruction of the middle class and a much lower standard of living for all but the wealthy, can you say banana republic. Another revolution is really needed and not the Tea party type that seeks to defend the very system that,s causing our demise
A couple web sites I use are stillmadeinusa.com. and madeinusa.org, it,s not easy to find things made here, but it,s worth the effort.
shoe, you are brilliant. I was going to mention the manufacturing thing in response to that article that claimed it was not elitist revolution. Most people do use the proper context when they talk about history. The US was nothing more than (insert resource rich politically weak country here ) at the time.
shoe one thing I love about this site is that I learn alot. I am one of those who surrounds himself with smarter people, and I never want to be king of the idiots.
For xmas I wanted some woolrich shirts, I didn’t realize they are not longer american made. What is the point they might as well close their doors.
Here is a good site for information.. it is a math engine, but it is also a knowledge base.
it is wolfram alpha. I use their math software, mathematica.
The predatory capitalist are playing all kinds of dirty tricks in the free market, They caught inmates at Angola prison in LA. tearing out made in honduras labels a sewing in made in USA labels under contract by Wal-Mart, plus places like Guam and P.R> are being passed of as made in america.