BREAKING: YES!!! Michael Vick Just Signed a 2 year Deal W/ The EAGLES!!
Awesome!
We need a spark on offense. And to all you haters who want to lynch Vick. He paid his debt to society so..SUCK IT!
Of all the fines levied against him, how much will Donald Trump actually pay?
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sigh I am going to have to look deep into my soul to determine If I can be an Eagles fan while he is here
I was thinking he’d go to Buffalo. It should be interesting – if Vick wins games he’ll get popular again I’ll bet.
DV,
please
I think I am going to throw up.
So I’m still not a fan.
By the way, Jason, he sucked in Atlanta. Sucked.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/235559-michael-vick-at-quarterback-no-thanks
Suck. On. That.
he has indeed paid his debt and the Eagles have every right to sign him….and I have every right to continue to be sickened to my core by his brutal and evil actions against essentially defenseless creatures. I root for the Broncos, but the Eagles will have an extra dose of “I hope they lose every game” while he is on the roster coming from me.
the guy was terrible and was like AI on a football field. Everyone stands around watching him on offense. Add 2 years of no football and 2 years to his legs oh and by the way, he can’t throw for shit. A 200yd average and an idiot Coach that likes to make mobile QB’s be pocket passers
PRESTO
Vick is the perfect player.
what a fucking joke…
DV never watched ‘The Longest Yard’ I guess. A1, worse than McChump? JY, We Americans have so much compassion for dogs and frozen embryos. For our fellow human beings, not so much.
I’m not sure what coach you have been watching for the past 9 years, but Reed has tried to make McNabb a pocket passer.
Now, magically, he is going to change his entire philosophy b/c he has a mobile quarterback?
Wait…he did have a mobile quarterback once.
Seriously, stick to poker, you seem to know more about that 🙂
We Americans have so much compassion for dogs and frozen embryos. For our fellow human beings, not so much.
Amish teh Awesome
WWMD (What Would Merril Do)? “Wide Right! Wide Left! Whatever, it’s NOOOO GOOOOoooooooD!”
“that…that’s right, merril” – Mike Quick
Eff this move and Jason’s fandom. Boo!
Jason, I just bought Rags the new Eagles number 7 jersey.
We can ban Jason if you want, Smitty.
How many Super Bowls has he played in compared to McNabb? Zero. How many division championships? Zero again. How many years has McNabb served in jail for unspeakable cruelty to animals? Zero again
Also, have we just learned that Kevin Kolb is a bust? A wasted second round choice and the Eagles first overall selection in 2007?
Um, are you suggesting that people who think his actions towards dogs were heinous make those same people uncaring about what people do to people? Stallworth is 10 times worse for getting soused and killing a man, but that fact and your logic does not exonerate Vick whatsoever.
Cass – just as he’s getting all fired up on a rant and commenting feverishly, ban him for seven minutes, in honor of the number of Vick. I’m still buying his dog a number seven jersey. 😈
Also, why do you use the racially inspired word “lynch” to describe “haters” of Vick? I can have complete disrespect for Vick while having the highest level of respect for people of all colors.
John, to your point about Stallworth, add on to it the fact that the victim’s family also requested leniency (after meeting with Stallworth). The victim’s family taking that action typically has a huge impact on the outcome. Also, Stallworth at least showed significant remorse throughout. How much remorse did Vick show before he realized resuming his NFL career wasn’t such a lock?
Jason, what size does Rags wear in an NFL jersey?
I hear that they are going to officially change their name to the Philadelphia Beagles and they are going to have a pit bull for their mascot.
Here is the new fight song to the tune of “Fly, Eagles Fly”:
“Fight, Beagles, fight
In the home of Michael Vick
Die, Beagles, die
Michael Vick is sick, sick, sick.
Hang ’em up, hang ’em high
That’s the way he made them die
Die, Beagles. die
On the road to mis -er-reeeeeeeee.
B-E-A-G-L-E-S Beagles!”
Die, Beagles. die
Hide Roscoe and Lulu!
Jason , I am not sure he is the spark they need. From both a public relations standpoint and an onfield standpoint.
Onfield at this point at most he will likely be an adequate back-up. Hasn’t been on the field in years and his career QB rating ( a performance based stat for his position) is not among the highest.
Drew Breese QB rating 89.4
Donovan McNabb QB rating 85.9
Tony Romo QB rating 94.7
Eli Manning QB rating 76.1
Michael Vick QB rating 75.7
Kurt Warner QB rating 93.8
Tavaris Jackson QB rating 76.5
Tom Brady QB rating 92.9
Peyton Manning QB Rating94.7
Ben Roethlisberger QB rating89.4
Phillip Rivers QB rating 92.9
Chad Pennington QB rating90.6
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players?type=position&c=NFL&pos=QB
Here is an explanation of the QB rating formula from the NFL:
http://www.nfl.com/help/quarterbackratingformula
Some critical comments here about Mike Vick’s performance are exaggerated. He’s been a flawed and inconsistent quarterback. But he is a great athlete. Saying he sucks is like saying Randall Cunningham sucked. Randall often didn’t get the job done, but we all wanted to watch him try because he was a walking highlight reel.
This is a weird decision by the Eagles. I have a rescued pitbull in my own pack and I’d have preferred not to have this guy on my team. It’s my guess the Eagles are thinking they’re getting a bargain basement deal for a legitimate NFL starter in reserve for McNabb, who’s been hurt a lot. But it will bring a lot of distraction. It’s troubling.
Aside from the ick factor here, what exactly does this signing mean? Have the Eagles, as A1 asked, concluded that Kolb is a bust? Is his injury more than a weeklong thing? Is Vick going to take Feeley’s spot and carry a clipboard for 2 years as the 3rd string guy?
I guess we’ll find out when Andy Reid determines it’s time to break this news.
And if you want an NFL player who probably should not have been given a 2nd (or 8th) chance (non-Bengals division), let me introduce you to Christian Peter.
From Wiki: “While at Nebraska, Peter was arrested eight times for various offenses such as threatening to kill a parking attendant, trespassing, public urination, refusing to comply with police, illegal possession of alcohol, failure to appear in court, and grabbing a woman by the throat. He was convicted four times.
Most infamously, he was alleged to have raped Kathy Redmond, a freshman from Littleton, Colorado; two times in two days–the second with two of his teammates watching. Redmond didn’t tell anyone about it until after her freshman year. Her father confronted an assistant coach about it, but Peter was never charged. This inaction led Redmond to file a Title IX suit against Nebraska in 1995; the suit was settled two years later for $50,000. Former coach Tom Osborne has since apologized to Redmond.
In 1993, Peter sexually assaulted Melissa DeMuth in his dorm room, and also groped Natalie Kuijvenhoven (a former Miss Nebraska) in a crowded bar and told her how she loved it in an obscenity-laced tirade. He was convicted and sentenced to 18 months probation, and was suspended for a 1993 exhibition game.”
Christian Peter was drafted by the Patriots in 1997 and released 3 days later after a maelstrom of bad publicity. He signed with the Giants and played 6 years in the NFL. He was inducted into the University of Nebraska Hall of Fame in 2006.
And the mere mention of his name makes me want to puke.
Mike Vick did his time, and he should be allowed to make a living. The NFL is a private business and can hire whomever they want. I wish it wasn’t the Eagles, but I’m not going to kill them over this move.
It is certainly an un-Andy move. He likes the boy scouts. But you are right. about the football move. I think we all know McNabb will not start more than 50% of the games this year.
Another Mike, how does your comparison to another person make Vick better? That seems like the child who beaks a household rule and when asked why says: my brother did it too.
Who care about the complete asshole you bring up from Nebraska. That does not in any way make Mike Vick anything other than a cruel, sadistic, dog killer.
Sure he did his time. Sure this is America. The Eagles and Vick have the right to enter into contract. Those 2 parties have exercised that right today. My opinion of Vick is grounded in the same freedoms that allow Vick and the Eagles to make nice.
I haven’t worked for a single company that knowingly employs ex-felons. I know it is too much to ask of the NFL to make that policy that the rest of us live by apply to the 32 companies that make their league, but the Eagles just lost what respect I had for them today.
It’s their right to hire, it’s my right to fire. Any Eagles fan that fires their team today is to be commended in my book.
WOW! What a bunch of tools!
JY,
It is your right to burn your Jaworski jersey, but again,,,. What is jail for? Just because his crime shocks your sensibilities does that mean he should get a life sentence?
John – I would also like a shot at Mike Vick on account of his cruelty to dogs. Actually though, in my prime, I would have bounced off the guy like a tennis ball. But I’d love to see my pitbull, Casey, have a shot at him. She’d stick him pretty good.
But I can’t fire my team. I bleed Phillies red and Eagles Green. And for me it doesn’t go back to Jaworski (all due respect). It goes back to Jim Bunning and Sonny Jurgenson.
That’s why this is troubling.
Vick is a sadistic thug. Perhaps he may be a hero to some. Then again, some people have very low standards when it comes to the use of words such as ‘hero’ and ‘genius’.
We can forgive some folly that was the result of the heat of the moment or peer pressure.
When we see a pattern of sustained brutality it is a different matter. With Vick, it was not just one mistake but a continuing criminal enterprise.
Perhaps we could end the charade of selecting players from football academies and recruit directly from prisons. Eliminate penalties for roughness. The new “Thugball” could become a popular sensation.
I have been saying for a couple years now that i would take anyone other than Mcsuck….. careful what you wish for.
Andy needs to go. He seems to have no clue how to run a team from a coaching, public relations or moral standpoint.
The animals rights activist in me is stronger than the Eagles fan. until he is gone (vick)… they are dead to me.
I wonder if there isn’t some Reid kids psychology going on here. Reid may have a new found desire to help out ex-cons. And I’m not sure how much people will be able to continue to bash Vick when he stands up at his press conference today with the Humane Society telling us that Vick is reformed and has (and is) making amends.
I was up at the game last night when the story started whispering its way through the stands. Most were very put off by the selection.
Vick’s pass completion percentage in his best year was not as good as McNabb’s in his worst year.
‘splain that, Jason.
So Vick gets a $10 mil/2 year QB job and Pete Rose is still banned for life from baseball?
From a crime and punishment perspective, how Art Downs thinks about Vick is not informed by his love of animals, but his level of racists crackeryness. Vick’s exotic (but minor) crime allows Art Downs to put on his white hood of moral superiority and burn the cross of indignation.
From an “X’s and O’s” perspective, McNabb will not last the year and the Eagles now have a chance of winning a few games while he is out.
This was a business move. Period.
As a dog-lover (no, not in the Rick Santorum sense), the Beast Who Slumbers doesn’t like this move.
HowEVER, let’s not go overboard as to what it means from the football perspective. Vick is not here to replace McNabb, he’s a toy for Reid and Morninhweg to fashion a package around. McNabb’s only got 2 more years in Philly in any event, and it’s doubful that Vick can ever run this complex WC offense.
No, ‘bulo thinks the reasons for the signing are (a) as LG suggested, Reid has empathy for those who have strayed based on his sons’ experiences with drug addiction; (b) the ‘new toy’ he has to play with; and (c) a desire to break the bad ‘mojo’ the early rash of injuries has caused.
Comment by jason330 on 13 August 2009 at 11:27 pm:
JY,
It is your right to burn your Jaworski jersey, but again,,,. What is jail for? Just because his crime shocks your sensibilities does that mean he should get a life sentence?
hahahahaha Jason makes a funny…
which jail Jas? da one for regula folks…like da onez dat can’t afford a good lawyer go to…dat sort of prison time?
or da jail / sentene for da rich privileged folk dat don’t serve sheet for der crimez…
Jason, no he is rightfully free having served his time. That does not mean that a company or a person can continue to harbor extremely strong feelings about his actions that rise to the level of believing that he should not play football again. I actually believe that he should try to play and that no team should have said yes. Certainly now, perhaps forever. He is a sadistic thug, and I choose to believe that his contrition is motivated solely by his economic situation, not his heart. Just one person’s opinion.
BTW, I own 2 Elway Jerseys….
poorperson,
huh? …nevermind.
JAson,
Still curious about you use of the racially charged word “lynch” in your post to blanket describe “haters” of Vick….
why do you use the racially inspired word “lynch” to describe “haters” of Vick? I can have complete disrespect for Vick while having the highest level of respect for people of all colors.
“I own 2 Elway Jerseys” get thee behind me Satan.
I’m just noting I am not an Eagles fan, that’s all.
I wonder if there isn’t some Reid kids psychology going on here.
Last night in his post-game press conf., Reid mentioned his sons in a correlation of forgiveness. On that note, when considering active coaches, Reid probably was the most likely of all to reconcile it in this manner.
“I own 2 Elway Jerseys” get thee behind me Satan.
I’m still getting you a Vick #7 jersey for your dog.
At some point, people who have committed a crime and served their time should be allowed to rejoin society on some level. It starts with employment. Otherwise, criminals have no recourse except to continue to be criminals. The horrific and sadistic nature of Vick’s crimes make it hard to accept that though. But someone in the NFL was going to sign Vick. I figured it would be Al Davis and the Raiders.
The signing is one of those rare and unique situations. The Eagles get a great talent for cheap who clearly never matured, either on the field or in his personal life. The quarterback position is the most difficult position in the NFL. Hundreds of top draft picks never panned out and billions have been spent on guys we’ve all forgotten. Putting his prior career stats aside, Vick is more than a capable NFL quarterback and still has many years of football left. If he replaces McNabb and performs up to his ability, he’ll be a bargain by NFL standards. For Vick, it’s an opprtunity to turn his life around. If he succeeds, he’ll get that big NFL contract.
I won’t be rooting for him, but I am curious to see how he does.
Reading the Philly.com, this pick is making more sense. First off, Andy Reid’s personal life comes into play here as well as the NFL wishing to get Vick reinstated.
We won’t know went on behind the scenes, but I guessing the Jeff Lurie took one for the team, the NFL team.
Gee, Delaware could have hired Vick as a spokesperson for sports betting…
You’re right A1…good thought…from cock-fighting Blue Hens of yesteryear to outlawed dogfights of today, right on to those civilized Eagles games and crowds to the North…it’s a natural fit.
Being in Philly will be no better than jail for Vick. Do you really think Philly fans are going to accept him with open arms? I can see it now, the field littered with milk bones, or plastic chew toys.
~~”At some point, people who have committed a crime and served their time should be allowed to rejoin society on some level. It starts with employment.” ~~
Yeah, but it doesn’t have to be the highly visible QB position for $10 million over 2 years. Put him in the office, not on the field.
No-put him on a leash.
Vick is a football player, not an office worker. Someone was going to sign him to play football, not clean toilets or shuffle papers.
I would imagine, barring an injury to McNabb, Vick will be on the sidelines holding a clipboard in year 1, though he could get some time at WR. Either way, they’ll bring him along very slowly.
The city of brotherly love might need a new slogan.
Any ideas?
“Vick is a football player, not an office worker. Someone was going to sign him to play football, not clean toilets or shuffle papers.”
Very few people are able to go to jail, come out, and pick up exactly where they left off in their career.
Child molesters working for the State of Delaware had that luxury, until the people realized that it was ridiculous, and thankfully, the government changed its policies.
This is a very difficult issue. The Beast Who Slumbers will withhold judgement, and here’s why.
The Humane Society of America apparently was involved with Vick’s agent in trying to find an ideal situation both for Vick and for them (Vick has been making appearances on behalf of the Humane Society). Spokespersons for the Society pronounced themselves very happy with the choice b/c (and ‘bulo didn’t know this) Philly is notorious for dog-fighting, and they fully expect Vick to be a vocal opponent of dogfighting in the city.
If that happens, then some good could still come out of this.
ES…he’ll either be a “vocal opponent” or an active participant. IMO it’s like putting a drug addict behind the pharmacy counter. And does the Humane Society help everyone arrested for cruelty to animals get a multimillion dollar job, or just the fabulous, high profile people that they can use in publicity campaigns?
And one more thing, what’s Vick going to say to the people in Philly?
“I engaged in dog fighting and have paid the price, now I can only make $10 million dollars in two years.”
Yeah, what a message for animal cruelty prevention.
Maria – the difference is that they are not putting him behind the counter of the pharmacy. It’s like putting a recovering addict in schools to talk to kids about why the shouldn’t use drugs.
It happens all the time with celebs. Were you this opposed to Robert Downey getting acting roles?
LG no on Downey, because I see a difference between drug addicts and people who commit violent acts.
Yes, one has an insatiable urge that never goes away and the other may never commit the act again once they recognize the inhumanity of it. Good point.
Your points are well taken, Maria. However, while it is indeed possible that Vick is using the Humane Society, that will soon become evident and he’ll be gone.
As to the $$’s, virtually none of that money is guaranteed. Other than signing bonuses (and ‘bulo isn’t even sure that there was any of that), if you don’t make the team, you don’t get the $$’s. The onus is on Vick to show that (a) he’s turned over a new leaf and (b) that his football skills are still good enough to warrant him playing in the NFL.
‘Bulo never thought he’d be in a position of defending Vick’s return to the NFL, and he is still highly skeptical. He just thinks that there is enough doubt to withhold judgement.
LG apparently gambling is considered an addiction that “never goes away” too. Vick didn’t just do bad things to dogs, he bet on dog fights.
Yes, but there are legal outlets for those urges. Is there any evidence that Michael Vick is addicted to anything? If he was, would it preclude him from participating?
LG did he just attend one dog fight and then stop, or was he running an entire dog fighting ring out of his home?
As for his participation, at the least it sets a very bad example: Kill, maim and pit dogs against each other, bet on it, get arrested, and when you get out of jail go back to your fabulous, high profile life and make millions. I’m not sure why the Humane Society would think this is beneficial to their cause.
Couldn’t they just get some actor to pose naked with a dog instead? Maybe Robert Downey, Jr. is free.
LOL.
Look, some people, not me, think that it is perfectly normal to pit animals against each other to fight to the death. As someone raised in Delaware, I figured that you would have covered that history when discussing the Blue Hen in school.
I suspect that it comes from a view that these animals are simply there by your grace to do whatever you train them to do. Most Americans have no problem with raising domestic animals with the intention of taking their unfertilized eggs and eventually killing and eating them. They taste good. PETA thinks this is as disgusting as you think dog fighting is.
I suspect that if you became a vegetarian and took to the cause of stopping the killing of cows, chickens and turkeys for our dinner plates, PETA would even let you come to their meetings.
“Couldn’t they just get some actor to pose naked with a dog instead?” You first?
The Delaware Blue Hen <—virtually extinct. Nuff said.
No virtually about it. YouDee is the last one.
I think the UD ag department has a few, at least it did way back when I was there.
I would love to see a Wookie fight seven Ewoks. (to the death(s))
No one here is defending what Vick did. I certainly did not. I do realize, however, that once a person pays their debt to society, the free market (which I suspect you support?) determines their employment capability in a given field, not somebody’s opinion about what type of job they should get. I also believe that preventing a person who has paid that debt from working isn’t good policy, though I agree sex molestors shouldn’t be working in state government (or in schools). Either way, it’s not up to you or me to make those decisions for a particular private employer. Besides, the free market is quite different than government. The NFL knew quite well they would have faced legal action had they attempted to prevent Vick from exercising his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, which applies to employment. Rather than go through a protracted legal battle, they choose a different approach. That’s their call, not yours or mine, though we may not agree or like it much. You could always boycott the league.
Once the NFL made that decision, each team determined whether they wanted Vick on their roster. It appears five or six teams seriously considered him. Ultimately, he signed with the Eagles.
Vick happens to be a very good football player. He is fortunate in that regard, no argument there. You are right, most people who committed that kind of crime would be picking up trash in Philly, not throwing a football for $5 million a year. But that isn’t relavant to the conversation. Most people can’t play football like Vick.
Only Michael Vick and God know if he is really remourseful. But that’s between them.
Like I said, I won’t be rooting for the guy. I think a lot of people would like to have seen more punishment applied. But life isn’t always fair.
Vick is “very good”? Didn’t he go down to McNabb in two playoff games? He can run, which may have been a plus in prison.
And if MLB can ban Pete Rose for life, why can’t the NFL ban their criminal players, coaches and managers. too? Frankly I’d rather see Pete Rose in the Baseball Hall of Fame that Vick playing for my beloved Eagles.
A Wookie is strong, but the Ewoks are cunning.
…because Rose is white. (kidding!…(not really)…no seriously, I was kidding…(no I wasn’t)
As far as the money is concerned, it is Jeff Lurie’s money to spend as he sees fit. I’m reading it’s $1.6 million which is a paltry sum for the talent of Michael Vick.
Regarding animal fights, this is a cultural issue that many white Americans have a hard time wrapping our heads around. Not only do we have dog fights and cock fights in our own backyard, one can look to Latin America with public stadiums built for cock-fighting or Spain for bullfighting.
One more point:
“The NFL knew quite well they would have faced legal action had they attempted to prevent Vick from exercising his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, which applies to employment.”
The only “employment” that he would have been denied would be employment by the NFL itself. The only way you would be correct is if the NFL stopped Vick from getting ANY employment.
And behave, jason, don’t make me bring up how you Amish folks use animals for heavy labor…and transportation…
Good point Nemski. Putting aside my cultural indoctrination to be aghast at something like this, I’d like to see a fight to the death between a Roman gladiator with a trident against a Birther with a baggie containing a birth certificate.
You are wrong. Vick’s lawsuit would have applied to being banned from playing in the NFL. In fact, the life, liberty and happiness clause has been used in sports before, exactly as I have stated. The NFL knew they couldn’t prevent Vick from playing in the league and would have lost the lawsuit based on well-established legal precedent. So they let him back in. Your argument is kind of funny. Well. you could get another job, so we don’t have to hire you? Uh, no legal basis there.
Going waaaay back in the comments:
I think the UD ag department has a few, at least it did way back when I was there.
Maybe so, Maria, but when Geek referred to YouDee being the sole survivor, he was referring to the 2000’s, not the 1950’s. 😈
Maria: Gambling on the games is the worst sin in any sport, because it directly endangers the “integrity” of the games.
But MLB can magically prevent Pete Rose from working in MLB for decades? The NFL had absolutely no legal responsibility to let Vick back in the League.
Smitty…I’m going to ignore that but never, ever forget it.
Geezer…but in a court of law sense, as was being discussed, “life liberty, etc…, if the NFL somehow can’t keep out Vick, how can MLB keep out Rose?
The NFL knew quite well they would have faced legal action had they attempted to prevent Vick from exercising his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, which applies to employment.
I don’t think that this is right. I think that the owners of the NFL (just like the MLB) make the rules of employment (mostly) and can enforce as they see fit. The problem here is that these owners are pretty much delighted to throw out any rules in the cause of making money. Vick, like any of the other thugs brought back is expected to make somebody money — which points to me the real injustice here. It is another reinforcement of the you can get away with anything if you have enough money rules.
The NFL had absolutely no legal responsibility to let Vick back in the League.
It is funny when people continue to make statements even when they don’t know what they are talking about.
The use of “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness” with respect to employment goes back to 1883, in the case Union Co. v. Crescent City Co., when the justices considered Jefferson’s phrase in the Declaration of Independence to refer to one’s economic vocation of choice rather than the more ephemeral search for emotional fulfillment, even though one may be predicated on the other. The key term there is vocation of choice. That choice remains in the hands of the individual, not an employer.
The NFL would have been sued and would have lost. Case closed.
It was also used in the Bucky Dent case and college players turning pro prior to graduating case, both cases the leagues lost.
Besides, it is fairly obvious the league knew they would lose in court which is why they let him back in, that is unless you are foolish enough to believe they let him back in cause he was remoursful. LOL.
As for Rose, that is a completely different argument, which included Rose breaking his contract with the Reds and his signed contract with the league that mandated conditions of employment. Those conditions mandated a ban on gambling and ramifications for such behavior, which included but were not limited to being banned from the league. Hope you can see the difference between the two cases.
First, I’m sure Vick’s contract had a clause that covered his behavior. I can still remember when Kate Bohnner lost her job at CNBC for getting a DUI, she sued to get her job back and lost. Funny, isn’t it, since the “vocation of her choice” was being a financial commentator on TV, but she still couldn’t get her job back.
Basically, by your standard, APPLE would have to take back every employee who went to prison and then said their “chosen vocation” was making iPhones. You could apply that to ANY job, but to my knowledge, employers have no legal obligation to take back employees when they get out of prison.
Smitty…I’m going to ignore that but never, ever forget it.
I was kind of hoping you were going to kick my ass, but whatever! 😛
After you lose a phase of an argument (legal precedence, Rose), do you just change the parameters and throw some more crap on the wall to see what sticks?
It’s not my argument, it is LEGAL PRECEDENCE that has been used repeatedly in sports. One of the main reasons it has been successful is because there are so few opportunities in professional sports. I have no desire to go into the anti-trust sector of the sports industry, monopolies and other employment limitations that have made the clause in the Declaration so relevant to sports. Besides, your personal feelings interfere with your ability to digest facts.
Who knows what Vick’s contract said, you certainly do not know what it said, meaning you are not sure of anything. The Falcons were able to nullify that contract based on his behavior. Rose was banned because he broke his contract (a rule by the way that was put in place after the Black Sox scandal). That was far different than the Vick case, a point you didn’t get before posting, meaning you were wrong.
Bottom line, the league knew they were going to lose in court. So they took the easier way out and let him back in.
Better to kiss and make up than go to court (the Union was going to pay for Vick, btw).
Anyway, have a nice day. Time to enjoy the weekend.
It was also used in the Bucky Dent case and college players turning pro prior to graduating case, both cases the leagues lost.
I don’t know anything about the Bucky Dent case, but I remember a case where the NFL was sued for a rule that stipulated some waiting period before a high school kid became draft eligible. That was ruled a violation of antitrust laws.
And that’s the rub, Cassandra. There is only one Football League. It is essentially a legal monopoly. In the case of CNBC, there are dozens of places that use financial reporters.
WRT the blue hens:
http://www.animalsvoice.com/edits/editorial/news/features/blue_hens.html
S. Hallock du Pont is like the English guy in Jurrasic Park. He should bring back a unicorn for Charlie.
Cassandra,
Actually, it was the NBA, not the NFL, that was sued for their age restrictions. It allowed Kobe Bryant to turn pro after high school.
The NFL still has age restrictions. I believe you cannot turn pro until after your junior season. It has not been challenged in court.
Bucky Dent was a Yankee, is famouse for a playoff home run and for beginning the era of free agency in baseball in 1978 with his lawsuit.
The monopoly that runs NFL gets to create some rules about who plays and who does not. If they didn’t Smitty would be QB of the Beagles.
Since not every guy who dreams of playing (and I don’t know if this includes Smitty) actually gets to, why isn’t there some lawsuit that accuses the NFL of ruining an awful lot of self-esteem?
Maria – I think some of the difference in arguing how you can sue the leagues successfully vs your example of Kate Boehner may be the availability of a comparable job (whether another employer is looking to fill such a job I don’t think is technicallt relevant, though). A defense can argue that Boehner can go and get similar employment elsewhere in TV or other media. The NFL (or most major-league sports) can’t, as they have a legalized monopoly of the sport in the US. One might be able to claim that he could play in Canada, but that being out of scope of the US would probably make it not a plausible argument. So, for the NFL in this case to outright ban Vick for a clause that defines the moral character of the league*(see below), becomes a real wishy-washy argument and likely would lose. I’m not happy with the signing, either, but trying to see it from outside of my opinion.
* – the NFL morality clause or whatever the hell it’s called. I’ve seen this debated on TV because of Vick a long while back. There is no clause that specifically bans any kind of animal fighting. Rather than name each possible offense they could think of, which if they did, would make much easier to execute punishment, they have a generalized morality clause that is intended to protect the league from PR image issues that could arise from a player behaving badly. This is exactly why there is no prescribed amount of games a player is suspended for whatever infraction that is not drug-related. It’s also why the new player union chief is getting pretty pissed over Goodell’s ability to mete out punishment as he so fits. The next collective bargaining agreement looks like it’s going to be a ton of fun and Vick’s suspension has already been cited by the union chief as one of the reasons why.
That was ruled a violation of antitrust laws.
BINGO! NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all have exemptions. It’s why the massive MLB strike of ’94/’95 got a day on cap hill (who was the Labor guy then? Rubin?) – some in Congress were threatening to revoke the exemption at the urging of Donal Fehr (the union leader) and a group of players who wanted to create their own league (one of the players was the very high profile Barry Bonds) to compete against MLB. The anti-trust exemption treatment of all leagues got a ton of airplay just from this issue alone.
So I still don’t get the grounds under which Vick could sue then. He already has one NFL contract nullified (right?) because of his own issues. So if the NFL banned him because he was not a credit the the game, because he already had a contract nullified because of behavior issues — that somehow counts as an anti-trust issue? Seems a stretch and the Dent and the other cases don’t seem to be on point — since you aren’t talking about players who have already disgraced themselves and their teams.
Cassandra – Smitty would be hard-pressed to be a financial reporter, too. There are enough Smitty deficiencies to make an economy.
Since not every guy who dreams of playing (and I don’t know if this includes Smitty) actually gets to, why isn’t there some lawsuit that accuses the NFL of ruining an awful lot of self-esteem?
Self-esteem? What in the hell is that? 😛
Smitty, or whatever your name is today, you are correct. This was an open and shut legal case. The NFL would have lost AND been liable for damages. Goodel held his nose (has there ever been a stricter NFL commissioner who suspends and fines players for even minor infractions?) and let him back in the league. You know he hated himself in the morning.
Cassandra,
After his contract was nullified he essentially became a free agent, meaning he can sign with anyone. So, if they banned him he would have sued under the Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness clause and would have won. It would have been ugly for everyone. So they took the easy path and reinstated him.
His contract was nullified by the Falcolns because he could not fulfill his end of requirement and that was the official legal reason. Obviously, we all know court and jail had everything to do with that, but it was legally factual. His early proceedings prevented him from any kind of team participation, so the contract was nullified. Now, if he could have participated, the Falcolns still reserved the right to release him. If they did so with guaranteed terms on the contract, they could not nullify that part of it. The wishy-washy NFL also has “non-guaranteed” terms, so anything in that player-disadvantaged area of a contract, after a release, is equal to a nullification.
Cass, I realize I am writing with the clarity of a Protack troll. I swear I will stop trying to confuse even myself or someone out there hopefully will help me.
Not only did the Falcons not have to pay him, I think they got a bunch of money back, including his signing bonus.
This is still not making alot of sense as to why the NFL is compelled to let just anyone play. Pacman Jones seemed to have a career mostly of NFL suspensions.
And this was the NFL case I was thinking of for limits on eligibility. Don’t know what happened on appeal.
I will try a 3rd time to see if Jason can read and respond.Why do you suggest verbatim in your post that “haters” want to “lynch” Vick? Why use such racially charged language. Especially when the “haters” have a basis (albeit one you disagree with) that is not grounded, in any way, in racism….
thoughts…..
I used lynch because I think there are racial overtones to the level of vitriol coming from the Vick haters. That’s why I also said, “… Vick’s exotic (but minor) crime allows Art Downs to put on his white hood of moral superiority and burn the cross of indignation.”
Too subtle?
Honestly, J, do you think his crime was minor?
He got 18 months in the cooler. I’m going by that.
OK, morally, do you think his crime was minor?
Dante Stallworth (by the grace of the victim’s family pleading for leniency and his own deep remorse, which I see as a huge difference between him and Vick before Vick was released) only served 21-or-something days of a 30-day sentence for killing a pedestrian while intoxicated. Was that minor?
No. I suppose not.
Vick pled guilty to providing money for a dog fighting operation. 18 months seems right to me, but I don’t know the details.
Wow. I got through to you? You know, you owe me a Corona.
Hey, I need to strike while the iron is hot! 😛
My point was that the time served doesn’t necessarily reflect the weight of the crime. Each case is obviously different with different circumstances.
My “no” was regarding Stallworth. As for Vick, providing money to a dog operation seems minor to me.
OK, I am back to getting your dog a number-7 jersey.
Cassandra,
It’s not about disgracing your team necessarily, it’s about legal rights that become more complicated because of the limited opportunities to play professional sports. They are monopolies and thus a different standard is applied to hiring and firing. Also I should add the league’s past in illegally controlling salaries with collusion played a role as well in the court’s decisions.
My point earlier regarging Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is that it has been used many times by athletes suing leagues, though all of them had a different basis of contention. However, in each case, the player won and the league lost. It all started with Bucky Dent.
Dent sued after his contract expired. He argued once his contract was over, he should be a “free agent,” meaning all MLB teams could offer him a contract. It used to be the team that had you under contract could basically “renew” the contract with a precentage raise and you had to sign with that team. Not to mention the owners wouldn’t bid on players from other teams. in other words, it was price fixing that resulted in depressed earnings. The court ruled in Dent’s favor, also adding it believed the anti-trust exemption should be reviewed to allow more competition. It never was, but the Dent case is significant because it opened the door for athletes to sue in order to earn a living and gave them a legal path to do so, the Pursuit of Happiness clause. The NBA was sued to allow high school students to play Pro ball and not be required to play semi-pro, I mean college ball. The league’s attempts to restrict who could play and when were thrown out (although I don’t think the NBA did it to control who got to play. But in America, you have a right to work UNLESS there is a legal argument against you working in a given profession. See Pete Rose).
This would have been the legal argument offered up by Vick: I have a right to work. I have served my time. You are illegaly denying me the right to earn a living in my choosen field. Because my contract was nullified by the Falcons, I am a free agent.
So the circumstances and application would have been different than say Dent, but certainly a pretty easy case to win based on prior case history.
Clarrett was out of options when he sued the NFL (which at that time you had to complete your junior year to be eligible for the draft, but you could still try out for an NFL team as a “free agent” aka Smitty the linebacker if you were not in college.) Not sure whatever happened with that. I think he tried out, got cut and isn’t he in jail now? Basically, he used the same argument Vick would have. I have a right to play. It’s my trade of choice.
from your article you linked to are a few interesting sentences:
Scheindlin (the judge) wrote that the NFL rule “is precisely the sort of conduct that the antitrust laws were designed to prevent.”
“One can scarcely think of a more blatantly anticompetitive policy than one that excludes certain competitors from the market altogether,” she wrote.
His lawyers had called the rule arbitrary and anticompetitive, arguing it robbed players like Clarett of an opportunity to enter the multimillion-dollar marketplace.
So even though they are all different cases with different sets of circumstances, the legal line of arguing is the same: you have a right to work.
anonie – that Bucky Dent case…I thought that was Curt Flood. You forced me to look it up…and Flood lost, which I did not know!
For others, the Cardinals traded Flood’s “rights” to the Phillies, but he wanted no part of them nor no part of the poor conditions the players found themselves in, in regard to bargaining and being owned property of a team, even if the contract was satisfied. He lost that case, never played for the Phillies and lasted only 13 games more, but in the following season (he had sat out the entire 1970 season). Despite the lost case, this most certainly laid the groundwork for the future change.
Here is a good Wiki entry that needs some citation, but overall is a good read and I believe completely accurate. I linked to the start of what I think covers the story well. Read that and the next section: Flood v. Kuhn.
This doesn’t make any sense if you are a known problem. If you have violated Drug Policy, Behavior Policy, Steroid Policy or other policies that you can be sanctioned for, the NFL can suspend or ban you. If they can suspend you for this behavior (no right to work), then can ban you for this behavior — unless their player’s contract says otherwise.
I get that there are limits to monopoly behavior, but it makes no sense that this group could not ban a player if it sees fit for violating established policy.
Jason: “Vick pled guilty to providing money for a dog fighting operation. 18 months seems right to me, but I don’t know the details.” AND “As for Vick, providing money to a dog operation seems minor to me”
Huh?
http://www.examiner.com/x-1779-LA-Pet-Rescue-Examiner~y2009m5d19-Michael-Vick-release-imminent-time-to-remember-what-Vick-actually-did-to-dogs
“According to the prosecutor’s statement of facts in the case, between 2002 and 2007 Michael Vick and his co-conspirators Purnell Peace, Quanis Phillips and Tony Taylor killed thirteen dogs by various methods including wetting one dog down and electrocuting her, hanging, drowning and shooting others and, in at least one case, by slamming a dog’s body to the ground.
Michael Vick didn’t make a mistake. He didn’t “make a bad choice.” Over a period of five years he forced dogs into deadly fights, and he personally killed, or conspired to kill, thirteen dogs. He didn’t pick a quick, painless method of killing, but instead chose a variety of means that qualify as torture. Pit Bulls are powerful dogs. Imagine how hard you would have to work to kill a Pit Bull by forcibly drowning him.
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution also reports, “Sometimes [the dogs] were starved to make them more vicious in the pit.”
And Michael Vick didn’t confine the abuse and killing to his own Pit Bulls.
Quanis Phillips, like Vick and Peace, “thought it was funny” to place family pets in the ring with trained fighting dogs
According to a November 2008 ESPN.com news story, a report prepared by the USDA’s inspector general-investigations division revealed that Vick, Purnell Peace, Quanis Phillips and Tony Taylor also put family pet dogs into the ring with trained pit bulls.
The report, dated Aug. 28, 2008, says, “Vick, Peace and Phillips thought it was funny to watch the pit bull dogs belonging to [Vick’s] Bad Newz Kennels injure or kill the other dogs.”
Supporters say Vick apologized for his actions. But in his famous press conference apology, Vick admitted only to fighting dogs, despite the fact that he pled guilty to all charges, including the killings. He admitted to “making mistakes” and “immature acts.” But deliberately and repeatedly planning dog fights and repeated premeditated violent killings of dogs are not “mistakes.” They are not the acts of someone who’s merely immature. They are the acts of a sociopath and a predator.”
have you checked any facts?
Cass – that was what I was saying many comments ago. There is no policy that specifically calls out Vick’s fiasco like there is for drug violation policy. Vick’s situation is covered by a general moral-behavior clause. I get this info from a roundtable debate program I watched some time ago that was born from the fiasco that was Vick. They discussed how a multi-occurance violator of the drug program can get themselves banned without known recourse (detailed in the Collective Bargaining Agreement), but Vick likely wouldn’t be banned, because that punishment would be a discretionary decision and most likely from a sole source (the commissioner), because the CBA doesn’t stipulate in detail how moral violations should be dealt with, although a suspension is acceptable, but the terms of such aren’t defined. As I also said before, I expect that to change with the upcoming CBA negotiations, because the new leader of the union has already said as much. As a matter of fact, the new union leader said this as a direct result of Vick being suspended for six games and that being the sole, discretionary decision of Roger Goodell!
You know what I’ve learned today . . . . Republicans are a bitter bunch.
Okay, not everyone who against Philly signing Vick is a Republican, but the bitterness they hold in the pit of their stomach could kill them.
nemski – what was that retraction? You found Cass’ comments a little late in the process? 😛
Here’s another twist of a possibility I just came across from ESPN’s NFC East Blog:
This makes me start to wonder if there were some calls from the commish’s office made to Lurie asking for a favor or twenty.
Next…T.O.!
I am confident there are many disaffected liberals who are furious at the Eagles for this. It’s kinda like the Obama health care cave. Vick is a sadistic thug regardless of his apology. His actions were simply deplorable. SO glad he’s not on my team, I just wouldn’t have a team anymore.
Jason wrote “18 months seems right to me, but I don’t know the details.” John Young, thanks for laying out the facts of Vick’s crimes in your post for Jason. Note that Jason has been silent on the subject ever since. Of course, there have been several scandals about the depraved and inhumane conditions in Amish-run puppy mills in Pennsylvania, so maybe his insensitivity, ignorance, and apathy is all part of his “I’m Amish” shtick.
As far as the legal aspects of Vick working in the NFL, Vick would have no chance. Tell me where you’re gonna get 12 jurors to find in his favor.
As I further listen to the opinions against Vick on the radio, the more inclined I am becoming in wanting him to QUICKLY prove all the negative opinions wrong. God forbid, that means I am now rooting for him to prove that he’s actually a changed man who has found that morality that was once missing. Oooooh, the horrors that I can say that! Oooo!!!
Just last Thursday, as this news broke, I was horribly sick to my stomach. As I listen to the parade of naysayers, in particular the ones who seem to know how to complain but lack substance (again, this is in-scope of radio and TV programs, not here on the blog), I am beginning to realize the theme of forgiveness is futile. One dolt on WDEL’s talkback this morning had the highly intelligent opinion that had Vick not been caught, he’d still be doing it. Whoa, Einstein in the house. On 60 Minutes last night, Vick all but admitted he wouldn’t have stopped had he not been caught. He said it was when that prison door shut, the realization came to him.
I’m done with the talking-point complaint memos on Vick. I hate what he did and am deeply disgusted by it. Up until the last 24 hours, I remained against him playing again. Listening to the repetitive cackling that mostly lacks substance, my opinion turned, at least in regard to affording him the opportunity to prove himself as a person. I don’t give a rat’s ass if he doesn’t pan out in football. Now, I am rooting for him to prove he’s stepped up and beyond that vile and disguating lifestyle that continues to define him today.
Question: at what point can he prove that he’s learned and turned that corner, or is that impossible to you?
Oh, I still stick with my comment above, from August 14th (4:52) where I think there was some influence from the league to persuade Jeff Lurie into signing Vick. Lurie does not look like a person who did this through any decision of his own and he’s the freaking owner that would have to sign off on it!
RSmitty: Question: at what point can he prove that he’s learned and turned that corner, or is that impossible to you?
If he were truly changed he would just simply have gone from jail into some philanthropic/good cause low paying job and not even asked to come back to the NFL…perhaps the NFL would have eventually seen his good work and tapped him on the shoulder to say “hey, wanna play football again?”. The whole “I’m broke and need my old job back so I’ll SAY whatever it takes thing” just flat out PALES in comparison to the concept of DOING whatever it takes…….basically I am 100% unconvinced of his contrition AND his contrition is not 100% what makes me want to see him play football again.
Anyone zapping a dog hanging from a tree (to quote Jason: “lynch”) with jumper cables and laughing hysterically is just too depraved in my book. My complaints aren’t talking points, just how I feel.
John…I tried to be careful that the scope of my differing attitude came from the radio and TV listener/viewer feedback, not this blog, so please don’t feel as if I am singling you out. I’m not.
However… 😉
If he were truly changed he would just simply have gone from jail into some philanthropic/good cause low paying job and not even asked to come back to the NFL
But why? Where is the rule or law? I see that attitude as revenge-motive and nothing else. Someone elsewhere brought up a correlation of would you allow a child-molester a chance of redemption through working with children. WTF? How is that a correlation? Does playing in the NFL put Vick in direct contact with animals? It is not up to us to decide what vocation he can and can not do. This is why I soured on my original opinion. It made me realize that I am not his judge. The Humane Society has endorsed his returning, given their thus-far satisfaction with his work with them. Who the hell am I to tell the Humane Society they don’t know of what they speak in regard to his work with them? I can say a whole lot of shit simply because I still feel hatred over what he did…and I do feel that hatred, it’s a big, freaking pit in my stomach. Again, who am I to say the Humane Society doesn’t know of what they speak? What’s next? Should everyone picket all the Humane Societies for allowing him to do work with them? Honestly, I am waiting for that to happen.
I still stand by my opinion, though, that this got shoved into Lurie’s face and I would love to see that angle pursued.
Rsmitty,
I think that at this point the best we can hope for is that he does demonstrate through actions and words that he is a reformed and redeemed human being, even as a Philadelphia Eagle. He actually has a great opportunity to do good in the world – let’s all hope that he can be guided internally and externally to do it.
I am not saying, in any way he has no right or should not have the right to play football. I am just expressing how him doing so make me feel. I strongly believe he was a liar, repeatedly (to his owner, his team, the media, the jury, etc) and I have no reason to believe he isn’t lying right now about his contrition. That makes me sad when I see the Eagles handing a 2 year 5.6 million dollar contract to a sociopath. It sends the wrong message to society about what we value and hold in high esteem.
At the end of the day, it’s America, he has served his time and has every legal right to play. It just makes me sick, that’s the extent of the situation for me.
I am not an Eagles fan, but if I were, I would be no more: the Eagles have no moral compass. This isn’t a second chance situation, Vick’s transgressions ended (for now) with dog fighting…it wasn’t his first problem for which this is his 2nd chance….
FWIW, I agree about the Laurie angle you espouse..
If you are looking to any NFL team to be a paragon of virtue, you are looking for Brigadoon. The NFL decided long ago that is was not going to require morality and upright lifestyles.
Goodell seemed like he was gonna try…..guess not.